England are European champions, again: Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30It looked like England were running out of ideas, but Chloe Kelly again setting up Alessia Russo for even better header. So many stories. Lucy Bronze's fractured tibia. Michelle Adjimang from ball girl to European champion. Jess Carter's brilliant performance after what she's been through. And Serena Vigman, five major tournament finals in a row. Three European championships in a row. It's frankly ridiculous. It's come home again. This is the Guardian Football Weekly.

0:56On the panel today, he was in the gantry. Seb Hutchison, welcome. Oh, hello, Max. He was in the stands. He was in the press box. Nick Ames, hello. Hello, Max. And she was on her sofa with her four-year-old. Is he four now? Not quite, almost. Okay, nearly four-year-old. Holy fake or others, welcome. Welcome, nice to see you. Yeah, host of the Excellent Guardian. Women's Football Weekly, of course. So there we go. England win 3-1 on penalties. Back-to-back European Championships for them. The first time in England side, men's or women's have won on foreign soil. We should start with the shootout.

1:33I guess we go to you, Seb, because you had to talk about it. I see Robin Cowan couldn't be bothered to show up. There's the loyalty. Outrageous. What a moment, eh? And she absolutely smashed. How I like a penalty. It's how to win a shootout, isn't it?

1:47Seb Hutchinson:People ask me before the game, are you going to write down what you're going to say if they win? Are you going to try and script the moment? but football just rarely plays out that way and you find yourself chasing your tail if you do that a lot of the time. So it felt like the moment the shootout started I did feel pretty confident about England. I just felt these were the moments that they'd built up to in this tournament. If it was going to be tight in the game they would be the team to get over the line and I think the shootout played out again how we thought it might there were going to be penalty saves there were going to be misses but it felt special that Hannah Hampton was able to make a couple of saves that big players were going to miss from both sides and that Chloe Kelly would be there on the decisive moment and it's it's amazing for somebody who's not started a game it was just throughout the tournament she was always there in the big moments and we always obviously it's a team game but but we like the individual stories don't we and there were so many in that game yeah and fey i mean i of modern football parlance or sporting parlance i find it hard to use the word clutch because i just think about a reno espace but chloe kelly had such a clutch tournament didn't she uh yeah she was she was incredible um it's really hard when you're the player chosen to make the impact there's a the pressure of the impact and b that kind of but why aren't my starting and you saw that with Alessi Russo and Ella Toome back in 2022 and Chloe Kelly was the star of 2022 and yet has still had to effectively and I don't think you can actually say this anymore in modern football if you like but she's had to be the spare part rather than the starter you know we're so used to saying that the starters are the most important we put so much emphasis don't we on the radio what's the starting 11 etc and it's not it's all about the finishers and Chloe Kelly has this she's a big game player is how we always describe her because she just knows exactly what to do in those moments comes on and she had you know more time coming on at halftime obviously because Lauren James had been injured but I mean what what an incredible story from her for what she has achieved in her career and she she just is so brave and so fearless and to go and step up and take that penalty knowing that she'd missed one before obviously she did score the rebound but you know incredible and that's interesting Nick isn't it the way she plays the game it's very different to Lauren James but obviously Lauren James didn't look fully fit and Kelly made a difference as soon as she came on but they both play like they don't really care in very different ways I think yeah I mean there's there's a wonderful freedom to both for them james as you say was what i was struggling throughout the whole tournament i i think i don't i mean she scored that wonderful goal against holland but i don't think you can judge judge her really on her output over the last three weeks that wouldn't be fair she was laboring um due to fitness but yeah um when when chloe kelly gets on on that ball gets on a pitch you just feel that stuff is going to happen really i mean it did within about two minutes of coming on i remember her skipping down my left and putting it across and i think it just got cleared away from it in plenty of goal but you just feel that magic is possible you know and when when when she stepped up to take that penalty with with that bizarre skipping run-up yeah so dress up it's slightly never seen before but i think it you know it must kind of occupy the goalkeeper that a bit um you know i i didn't have any doubt that she was gonna thunder it in but no there's um and there's a real genuine joy i think to the way she plays um i think it was very very fitting that she showed up and scored that winning penalty it was just an absolutely magical moment yeah i mean i hope that inspires you know league two cloggers who smash penalties to do that little julian dix does that hop before welling one in you mentioned hannah hampton as well seb and there are there are so many players to pick out but you know first major tournament and you know obviously what happened with Mary Earp, it's been picked ahead of Mary Earp, chosen for her distribution, but she was so good.

6:14She sort of seems in those penalty shootouts, you know, you just sometimes think, like Donnarumma, I guess, like keepers that are just going to make saves. And she has that vibe about her.

6:22Seb Hutchinson:I mean, she's had an incredible football journey. And of course, all the stories are coming out now about her eye condition, about the idea that she was trouble at previous clubs, the idea that she's a player with a big mind, into big ego all these sort of things that feed stories to help people create a picture of somebody negatively and positively but for somebody who essentially is in her you know 25th year she is the maturity was was off the scale she did two interviews with itv recently one before the tournament and one during the tournament and before the tournament she did speak about the effect of the whole Mary Earp situation and feeling that supporters were behind her or felt that she shouldn't be in the team and had got to her she's very honest person and then during the tournament she did another one where you could you could just see in her that she felt more settled once the tournament had got underway and she got it's I think for a goalkeeper is getting your hands on the ball feeling busy and knowing that you know you're the last line really before that ball goes into the net and there's a lot of things might have gone wrong before it reaches you so I think that gives goalkeepers some comfort even though they it flags up and I know I saw that you know Bon Mati got player of the tournament which I always think is a slight reputational thing as well well I seriously think Hampton was in the running when you look back at the competition the save she made at certain times her distribution that created goals for England.

7:58Seb Hutchinson:Mo was even down injured. She had to stick something up her nose and battle on. The pictures and the images from this tournament, there'll be so many of them. I feel like for England, this tournament condensed what you would see in many, many tournaments across the years. That Terry Butcher look, the players strapping themselves up, the roars on penalties, players going off injured, staying on the pitch, great goals, coming from the depths, comebacks, teenagers taking their moment when you hadn't really seen them before. We've seen it before in major tournaments, but it was all condensed in one incredible situation.

8:38Seb Hutchinson:And to wrap it back up on Hannah, I think it also shows that somebody can be in a position where Mary Earps was in and considered a huge player for England. But that's what makes sport so great. in one or two moments you can just take that spotlight yourself yeah totally i mean it's a good moment interview after the game where they were you know she was talking about the penalty shootout she just lost count and she had to ask the fans if chloe kelly scores this do we do we win i like that you've had done all this homework you've got all this stuff written your arm you're like what's the score again johnny lou wrote a piece saying this is uh you know perhaps england's greatest sporting heist in the sense that it's sort of ridiculous that that england have won this tournament given given the performance after the France game where I thought they were appalling and then given the comeback and then given the Sweden game the Italy game you know just so many moments you're like you can't keep doing this I think it's the mark of a champion to be honest I think you know it's really easy um as we sit on our sofas or up in our press gantry or wherever we're watching these games to think that on the pitch you know they're not doing their job properly or wow, they're amazing.

9:49And there's so much more context to it than that. And this side have been through so much leading into the tournament, all the noise around them. And Lucy Bronze talks a lot about the noise, the negative noise around them. We kind of, particularly in this country, we want to bash people down when they've won a lot of the time. So we were almost waiting for them to trip up, having had such a brilliant tournament in 2022, having got to the final of the World Cup in 2023. And that opening France game, they were awful. They were so sloppy. They weren't up to speed and it was a really difficult watch.

10:29And so, of course, that feeds straight into that narrative straight away. But what we've seen in this tournament is the resilient teams are the ones that have gone the furthest. I actually thought it might end up being a Germany-England final because they just had that, you know, no matter what, let's get ourselves over the line. And I think, you know, they won it so differently to 2022, I felt. They had to win it ugly in a way. They had to win it going through three games in 120 minutes and two penalty shootouts. That's insane. And I think once you've kind of done that, you feel a little bit invincible.

11:09and you know they know that they don't have to go into a tournament in the best fitness in the best as long as they're a collective and they push through and they don't stop and they never give up then it's possible that they could win it which is exactly what they've gone on and done and actually if you're going to beat spain nick you you need all of those qualities and you have to defend brilliantly right they did in this game i thought they defended absolutely brilliantly for almost all of it they reclosed the spaces they got into them they were aggressive they were positionally very astute and i want to say a word for jess carter actually we we spoke a lot earlier in the week a very important discussion about you know the awful situation she experienced earlier in the tournament and i think a lot of people including some people quite close to the camp who i spoke to were quite surprised that she was brought back in yesterday not not because of what had happened earlier in the week but just because you know that there wasn't an obvious necessity that she came back in but she was fantastic i thought she blocked she headed she had she stepped out quite bravely a few times to win stuff and and close those half spaces in front of the defense that you know spain's driving and i thought she was really really key to what happened there um lucy bruns i mean we we talk about her a lot but you know i was sat there after the game watching her limping heavily around and we now know that she's gone through the tournament with i think it was a fractured tibia um i think it's ridiculous that's basically a broken leg right that is playing a whole tournament with a broken leg it's just ludicrous it's and it's crazy and i mean we and we all know that her middle name is tough i think we can probably think of a few stronger epithets than that because i i mean amazing so but it was just such a disciplined rearguard effort and I think you know people will say the way Spain play they were dominant for a lot of a game maybe they should have put it to bed they had a lot of a lot of little half chances rather than clear chances I would say but when a team that you're up against is like good a lot of the joy and the skill of it is in adapting and playing in a way that maybe you might not want to play ideally and making it work that way and England did it and Wigman did it and tactically I think they were spot on and they exploited Spain with the equaliser as well at a time when Spain Spain had been in total control I think for half an hour after they scored it was um it was it was pass pass pass but maybe they weren't turning the screw and maybe it was getting I hesitate to say too easy that's a bit of a get out but it was it was looking like they were in very comfortable control and then they switched off that a little bit letting them play through with his I think it was a move from the back that Hampton started again actually two or three passes and and just for the clinical ball from Kelly lovely arcing header by Russo like the neck muscle was on that yeah and just the way they took their chance when it came um having dug in and held the line so resolutely it was fantastic but going back to Jess Carter Nick what I found really a I was quite surprised to see her start but if you listen to all the pundits obviously who who are coaches themselves or players, they all said she was exactly the right person for this game.

14:31And I thought there was not one moment where she lapsed in concentration. And the biggest problem that England had had, once Serena Vigman had switched Alex Greenwood to left back and Jess to left centre half, the gap between them was always massive. And that was where teams were exploiting them. But Georgia Stanway played a much more defensive game against Spain. She wasn't doing her usual drive, you know, try and shoot from distance as much as possible. She was slotting in in that space between the two. And it made a massive difference because Spain just couldn't then get through it. Look, England have won the Euros and we'll talk about it a bit more in part two.

15:17Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. We're doing a live show on the 11th of September at the Troxie in London. uh barry and i uh were looking at the uh tickets you know like we went onto the troxy website and either it's selling very well or it's not selling at all because we couldn't work out if gray meant sold or not but we think it's selling well um so get your tickets before you'll be disappointed theguardian.com football weekly live we've already had one ideas meeting which given it's over a month away is more advanced than we normally are and we would love to see you so yeah theguardian.com slash football weekly live Seb I mean there are so many people we need to talk about do you know we're talking about the goal there and it was one of the only times where Kira Walsh got space because she was so mucked and I still think she might be England's best player even though she hasn't been mentioned sort of at all all tournament she's so comfortable on the ball her decision making is so good and it must be so frustrating when you're that player that Spain recognise you're the one to stop and other teams have done it that you so rarely get the opportunity to have a ball

16:18Seb Hutchinson:with like a second of space and time. It's a situation she's been in for years for England. From the moment, people realise that she was the player that starts England's attacks from the midfield. And she's actually had a lot of criticism in this competition for her perceived ability, difficulty getting around the pitch, the physicality, people suggesting that the game has moved on a little bit for her. She's at a difficult time really, leaving Barcelona, going to Chelsea. We'll see people questioning the moves, knowing that Spain players know her inside out, trained with her, played with her and putting her under pressure.

16:57Seb Hutchinson:And if I mentioned Georgia Stanway doing a more defensive role, that's a big part of it because England's midfield has had massive spaces in it for a lot of the tournament. Because Serena Wigman, after the France game, she felt that there weren't enough runs from midfield and she addressed it in the Netherlands game and it worked so well. You know, Ella Toon was able to make runs in behind that couldn't be tracked. But England did become a side who were slightly bypassing the midfield in many ways, getting the ball forward quickly. And the midfielders, as far as the tournament was concerned, was looking out of the picture for the praise.

17:31Seb Hutchinson:But I thought as the game went on, she got stronger. And this is the mentality of these England players. It's almost as if they have switched something on and they don't. We've been here before. We've won this competition. We are winners and we're going to take this deep and we're going to make this difficult for you. And one telling moment, I think, was, well, I say moments during extra time. Patrick Guihara, who's one of the best players in the world and really should be in the running for the Ballon d 'Or, but she was getting very irritated. I was watching her. She was going into a bit of a mood, really, during the game.

18:08Seb Hutchinson:Angry, scowled looks. And I think England would have noticed that. And there's mentalities in the English side that if they see an opposition player getting rattled, they're like, right, we're on this. We've got them. We've got them. And there was a lot of that going on. And that's the moment I thought, oh, hold on, England have turned this a bit. But, you know, Spain made subs of their own, which worked and didn't work for them ultimately. But, yeah, to bring her around now to Kira, she is a unique player in English football. And that's part of it is that people look at her. She's in the spotlight.

18:41Seb Hutchinson:She was a player of the final in 2022. And she is somebody that when she's gone, England will think, you know, we miss a player like that. When Rousseau equalised Faye, I was slightly disappointed because I thought, oh, we're not going to get any adjumink. You know, this is like we need to be 1-0 down. At 1-0 down, I was like, OK, this is all set up perfectly for another last 10 minutes. She did come on. I thought she played OK. She didn't have like the massive impact that she had in previous games. but it's an amazing story. You could see when she was dancing forward to pick up Young Prayer at the tournament, how happy she was.

19:18Of course, she's happy, but what an impact for her in this tournament. Oh, I mean, a star is born, except she was born 19 years ago and lots of people have known her talent for quite a long time. She was the wildcard pick, essentially, for Serena Viegman. People weren't expecting her to have this rise this quickly. We've known about her talent for a while now, but she hasn't shone on a stage like this. And I think most of us didn't really expect her to get any minutes coming into the game, which again, just shows what we know, doesn't it? Because Serena Wigman knows when a player can come in and make the kind of impact that Michelle Adjumang was able to make.

19:55What I loved about it as well is what a popular player she is within the group and that the group, she's clearly quite a humble character, quite quiet, plays piano in her room. She had her piano shipped over for the tournament and likes our own space, but the players all wanted her to take the accolades. After that Italy game, she was pushed forward by Alex Greenwood and I'm trying to think who else, Beth Mead, I think it was, pushing her towards the crowd to say, no, no, no, take these plaudits. This is for you. This is amazing. And you could tell that actually she started to embrace it when we got into the final.

20:33And yeah, she had an okay game, but she was there to cause a little bit of chaos, which she did. I mean it would have been a remarkable story if she'd have then gone on and perhaps scored the winner because we've seen what she's done in the tournament so far up till the final three goals in four England caps I think she scored a goal every 33 minutes of the time she's been on the pitch that's a phenomenal kind of form but just almost watching her grow in the tournament that's something that an old person perhaps would say that you know you see someone come of age don't you in a tournament like that and i feel like she has yeah i mean it does take some real confidence though to say is there anything you want to bring actually you couldn't just bring up bring my piano is that all right like like if every player says can i bring a piano aren't we totally fucked um anyway nick i just wanted to um to add very quickly on adjumaine i was i was um i was sat after the game in in the front row of the the test box and as as you guys will know you but you're often right behind a lot of the players friends and family who were all waiting behind for a good hour hour and a half celebrating a lot of the players coming in into the stands to see their family i've i've handed lauren hemp's dad a bottle of water so we all know who won the euros really but um but uh the adjumang family were were just just down down down to the left of me and there's there was a lovely moment it was it was way after the end when she came in with her trophy and celebrated with them and like i don't know who each individual was whether it's brothers cousins there was obviously parents everything but the and the sheer joy and delight and just drinking it all in as she came in and showed it to them was just absolutely it was an absolute picture anyway it was just everything that winning a tournament especially at the age and with a contest that fae has just just talked about it's everything that it should encapsulate and and this you have to remember is is a player who and and this is probably a separate discussion or later on discussion about making sure that the next generation get enough opportunities at big clubs and and in the wsl she's not played much football she didn't even start many games at all for blighton on loan last season but she's come in have this incredible impact probably played a bit longer last night and would have been ideal for her and i think she got a bit of a rough deal from the referee from the referee for that part as well yeah i agree with that you seem to sort of thought oh this fairly tall girl is coming on we're gonna pull her up for everything but she handled it superbly and just yeah the the sheer joy and celebration with the family at the end like how could she have expected to be in that position a year ago three months ago like three weeks ago just incredible she does a very good being number nine, that can't be a foul ref face as well, you know, sort of laughing astonishment.

23:28But I thought, I thought she did get some, I thought Stephanie Frappell was a little bit sort of bought into the, without going all cliche, the Spanish just hurling themselves all over the place come the end of the game. Seb, is there anyone we, I'm trying to think of players that we haven't really talked about, Lauren Hemp a lot or Leah Williamson or Alex Greenwood, sort of think, you know, they've all won this thing, Grace Clinton and Niamh Charles, they all deserve at least a mention, right?

23:49Seb Hutchinson:Yeah, yeah, should I go through them quickly then really really quickly once you haven't mentioned leah williamson i go back to one of the big blocks she made in the sweden game her long passing was excellent i think she was up there in the top maybe the leader by some margin for accurate long passes which when you look at the tactical framework was so key she had an injury issue but came back desperate to start in the final after her injury pass i think alex dreamer having to change positions a player won her 100th cap during the competition as well a player who's been part of all of these squads of england on this amazing run over every major tournament after 2013 of reaching the semi-final at least which is extraordinary consistency her and lucy bronze georgia stanway along with hemp along with greenwood and james missing large parts of last season with injury obviously hearing that lucy bronze had an injury in the tournament you think there's walking wounded in england team and Aggie Beaver-Jones another young player who's impressed in recent months a hat-trick at Wembley before the tournament scored in this competition but also we go we've said this about squads as well when you have people who are know they're not going to be involved really but are great to have in the camp and I think you know Vubamoy and Letizier they were delighted delighted to pick up medals I mean I saw Vubamoy before the tournament and I thought she wasn't going to make it just based off her expression.

25:17Seb Hutchinson:But obviously what happened with Millie Bright pulling out gave her the chance to be in the squad ultimately. And because it's a team game, everybody has to play their part, has to be in the picture. Ella Toon coming in the second game as well. Esme Morgan, don't forget about Esme Morgan. Esme Morgan, exactly. Coming in in this semi-final, starting a semi-final and not looking out of place whatsoever, having not really expected to be in the mix. Now, I'm missing somebody. Grace Clinton, still a young midfielder who probably didn't get as many minutes as she would have liked. Likewise with Jess Park as well.

25:53Seb Hutchinson:But they're all part of this lioness's picture. Who am I missing? Come on. Beth Mead. Did you give Mead a shout there? I mentioned that she pushed Michelle Ademann forward. But she's been brilliant, Beth Mead, because she's also had to, having started, you know she's also had to effectively be a bit part player but as again I'll go back to my point earlier I don't think you can be a bit part player in football nowadays it's it is it is the collective isn't it I mean you haven't seen me from Melbourne old boys you absolutely can um Niamh Charles yeah yeah Niamh Charles okay well done her header away at the back post gotta say it was a great almost perfect answer that said Nick was Spain the best team in this tournament i mean they weren't the team that won so we'd have to say no but um i mean look they they still play and are capable of a level of football that no one else not england not jeremy not not any other leading lights are capable of um i think they will look back and they were clearly looking back at full time they were they were stood there motionless with hands on hips and arms folded and they they will look back i think they should have won that game and put it to bed yesterday they i mean a lot of the england players i mean going back quickly to england's heroes and like in the last 15 minutes half that team could barely run and they still held out it was it was it was that gutsy yeah spain are capable of of a level that nobody else can match and i think it's and it's more that other teams now have to adapt the way they play as i was saying before in order to to combat them so i i don't think it's an end of an era for spain i don't think anyone can come close to them in terms of the fluidity and and the patterns and the moves that they make and the sheer technical quality and depth they i mean they can call upon what other countries have that maybe they don't have and i think what england has is maybe the level of drive and commitment to the sport and the passion and the infrastructure and and the whole network surrounding the team that maybe can can give it those extra intangibles and five and ten percent which i know sounds quite abstract but i think is there and i think england has that now yeah also what i mean we can come to her but i i think one person we haven't really mentioned yet that spain don't have is a serena yes yeah and and and i was spoiled the top of part three nick but carry on apologies in that case in that case i'm going to mention the spain manager at who to be fair i'm not digging out at all because her team is fantastic but i was watching her congratulate regman at the end at thinking maybe just at this point they don't have a serena regman in charge and maybe that was what made the difference and is that a good enough segue for you not bad at all uh seb you wanted to come in before we end part two i i think spain are the greatest boxer with one hand tied behind their back and i heard some people praising the spanish system and the spanish setup and success but now the this is this is against it completely they have had to what they've had to do to get to this point it's almost the individual players love of the sport itself that keeps them going in the backdrop the fa have not supported them in the way that it should the spanish football culture doesn't support them in the way it should i remember in the presser before the final the journalist asked um how can you sell this final to the spanish public it's like what do you need to sell it for you they're the world champions they're a stand outside they've scored loads of goals they've got the best players in the world and yet they have to fight against that and i think barcelona are have been the key to it really i mean that they make up the vast majority of the squad and that cohesion and everything is built into that and and they've been the trigger which is ironic of course because so many in that part of the world don't consider themselves spanish so it's it's quite there were players there is a tinge of sadness to it you know if you're a neutral watching as well you would have wanted spain to win a lot of people would have done because there are players in that squad who weren't part of the last world cup not because of injury yeah you know frozen out effectively and that's why you know in Monse Tome as well there are many who don't really warm to her in the squad either because they see her as part of that previous regime and that's the thing about it if Spain were to properly back their women's team I mean they could go on an unprecedented domination of the sport because technical and almost brought up raised football culture point of view I think they're almost unmatched in the world.

30:39While we're still in Spain the the the cruelest part of the night i felt was at the end when they've set up a podium and the england players are sort of in a kind of a guard of honor kind of still not really holding in their celebrations i don't blame them and then bon matty is named player of the tournament and she has to walk um to walk through the england players who are being very sporting and applauding her but still inwardly and slightly outwardly whooping and um and it it must have felt for bon matthew after putting in the levels that she has put in in the last few weeks with all the context of having meningitis before the tournament i was watching her thinking that walk has got to feel a million miles long and then she had to pose for the obligatory photos with and with a trophy and she she could not crack a smile like it was absolute grim and um i must admit well obviously we're all delighted with the outcome of yesterday i my heart went out to her there because i thought nobody really could have put more in to the last three weeks than i turn a bombetti and that walk must have just been the bleakest 30 seconds of her career but she'll be back like she's she's she's an absolute winner and absolute superstar you're listening to the guardian football weekly back in a second

32:05welcome to part three of the guardian football weekly slightly surprised that none of you have brought up serena viegman yet um in uh in the first half hour i mean look three euros on the bounce for her i mean five major tournament finals in a row it is very frankly ridiculous It is, but she's ridiculous. She just, what I found really interesting this tournament is, again, you know, I go back to the point of we love to tear people down. People have been trying to find holes in Serena Vigman, you know, criticising her for timings of substitutions. how can you do that when the substitutions then come on and make the impact she's brought them on to do and then they go ahead and they go and win against the odds uh the uh the euro 2025 second european championship in a row i mean you know she has a winning mentality but she also knows how to create a team and she's very honest and lots of people don't like that honesty but if they don't like that honesty then they step away as we've seen before you know it happened to step Steph Horton, ahead of Euro 2022, devastated for her.

33:13But, you know, the choice was made and then she articulated it to the player. You know, we all work in the media. The last thing on earth that you ever want is for somebody just not to tell you. And then it just happens. You know, she's very, very honest with her players. We saw it when she was at the Netherlands and it works. It might sting at the time, but it actually does work. Same coming in when we saw the big names deciding to step away leading into this tournament. It's going to be really interesting to see what changes going forward, because her number two, I am viewing, she credits with so much of the way the Lionesses play and has been with her for ages.

33:52He's now going on to manage the Netherlands himself. So that change in backroom staff is going to be a really interesting shift. But, you know, she has this contract till 2027. She wants the World Cup. That's the one trophy that she does not have. She's a serial Euros winner, but she wants the World Cup. And she's been to the final twice now and not won it. So 2027 is her goal. And I tell you what, I wouldn't put it past her to go and go and win that if everything goes according to plan, because she is that special ingredient that England have. And you have to credit the FA for going and finding her and bringing her here.

34:33you know again under criticism because you know in in in an ideal world I think as England fans you would prefer the England national team to be managed by an English coach but at the same time if you know that we don't quite have those coaches ready to take that mantle on then finding one of the best out there which she absolutely is is the next thing that you go and do and they did. Is she as good as Phil Neville, though? Like, managerially? I can't. You couldn't finish that sentence.

35:07Seb Hutchinson:Yeah, what impresses you the most, Seb, about her? She's the perfect manager. When you think of any, what makes managers great, and you give different reasons, motivation, tactics, personal interaction with players, the interaction with the media, and the interaction with the FA, they're all different skills needed, and she nails all of them. I remember after the World Cup final in 2019, FIFA did a video with the two coaches, Jill Ellis and Serena Viedemann for the final. And I remember watching that and thinking, the way she was analysing the game, talking about it, I was learning from her analysis of the game.

35:48Seb Hutchinson:And her real frank analysis, she's able to say, she looks at the limitations as well. She knows where the problems are on her side and she tries to counter them in a way rather than sugarcoat it or not give these things away. She's open with her analysis and she's always ahead of the game. She speaks. She's always talking about her relationship with the F.A. She speaks about the, you know, I mentioned it on the previous pod about the youth system, the link up St. George's Park. She's confident in that. She's with the media. she answers questions she's actually quite a funny few funny moments when she's in the press conferences i think she's made a concerted effort to to smile during the press conferences where people are asking questions because i think maybe again she's aware of these things the emotional intelligence thing i didn't want to have that resting face where people accuse me of not listening the danny murphy the danny murphy resting resting go away face but there was there was a german reporter asked a question and the switch up on her face was so dutch it told you a lot about Dutch-German relations in football because she had this German reporter ask her a question and she went with this huge smile to the straightest face and was like what do you want what are you doing here I think and I think she buys into that humour she almost during press conferences she'll say you know I want um if if it's not any questions not in English she'll sort of rebuff it a bit because she feels that you know that's how English people also behave it's like everything should be in English type thing she's more into which even um you know to be a a bit self-indulgent but there was a nice moment where it was passed on to me that she she saw me in the gantry and she was oh is that is that the guy who does the commentaries or been listening in on the commentary thinking how's that possible when you're managing the team every time you're doing it and she she's just somebody who those little things make all the difference because then when you're when i'm commentating on a game i'm thinking you know serena cares about this stuff and so I have to be nice.

37:48Seb Hutchinson:One bit of flattery. She's bought you pretty easily, Seb. I've just absolutely succumbed to the pressure. One bit, that's all it takes. We're all susceptible. Not even flattery, just acknowledgement of existence. Not even flattery, yeah. It's a slight fear because she's got a hard edge as well. She clamps down on leaks of teen news. She's on this stuff and she's been so good with so many. of the players and she doesn't steal that group mentality and there's always going to be you know not you can't be liked by everybody but if you're liked by most that's or the majority i think you've done pretty well okay then 2027 nick unless the men win in usa canada and mexico then england would be so let's let's presume they don't you know just history suggesting then you know this could be the first team to not only win a major tournament on foreign soil but in another continent as well.

38:44And it is more difficult for reasons that, I suppose, home advantage clearly helps, doesn't it? But do you think, when you look at that squad, there aren't, how many won't be there in 2027? What's the future looking like? How hopeful can we be, do you think? I think we can be hopeful for 2027. I think they can have a real crack at it. I think most of these players will still be around. I think, obviously, a lot of the younger players we've talked about, less experienced players who have stepped up and become new heroes this summer, such as Hampton and Adjomang, just to name two, will be that bit more experienced, have that bit more presence about them.

39:22Lots of good fringe players around the squad. I think they can really push on and have another big go at it. I'd be more concerned maybe about the four or five years after that when I think we've got to look at what I alluded to earlier, the pathways of players coming through and how much experience at the top level players who are currently 16 17 18 19 are are getting and i wonder whether england may have a slightly fallow period or the adjustment period in the later half of this decade and early part of next but i think for 27 this might be a perfect time where a lot of these players are coming right into their peak and the young players who have supplemented this journey and this summer are just that bit older and better and can play an even bigger role so i'm all in i'm all in for 27 i I think they've got a really good chance.

40:12I think down the line, they've got a question about the five years after that, but let's not be a spoilsport. No, Ellen White, Faye said, oh, look, my two-year-old is watching all of this and has been inspired. I was like, come on. I mean, I know two-year-olds. I'm not sure what... They're inspired maybe by a yellow digger, but maybe Ellen White's two-year-old is smarter than mine. But that question about legacy and inspiration, it's always quite a tedious question. and I just wonder, you know, how close are we at the end of a tournament to not having to ask, and what does this mean for the women's game?

40:47We're now at a stage where we can ask the question in a kind of meta way like that, but when will I not go and what does this mean for, you know, English football or women's football, et cetera? When society changes, so it could be a while. And by the way, my three-year-old, not particularly inspired, actually on the Guardian Women's Football Weekly, chose Paw Patrol over the football. also got incredibly confused because the lions in terms of rugby union play in red and we've obviously been supporting the lions so when he comes to sit in front of england versus spain he says go on the reds it's like no no no not today not today but your your son is more basic than ellen white's is what we basically say perhaps although he did watch those uh did watch the penalties behind his but he did get the context of you know being english and watching penalties amazing it was half eight this is this was an early kickoff this is what we needed because we knew that's true that is true but to answer your to answer your question i think because there is still so much growth within the women's game that actually it's still a relevant question in many ways although it might feel frustrating it's still important because we're still catching up um and the growth has been exponential but there's still so much more to go so building on the legacy of 2022 again is going to send it up to another level yet again so I do I don't think you should be so hard on yourself for asking the question in the first place is what I'm saying okay I think you know the legacy what I loved about it I go back to to the answer I gave about the resilience piece I love the fact that it wasn't just about skill and being the best team it was about mentality it was about um grit it was about getting through it and i think that is also different because that feeds a different uh narrative and you've still got these you know my niece was sitting there she's 18 years old she's like michelle adjaman's the same age as me i'm like yeah pretty much this and so that to her was like you've got no chance you you're not gonna you're not gonna make it i think she's realized she's not gonna make it but she's not even into football my niece and yet she she thoroughly you know enjoyed the drama of of last night so it's not even just people who are football fans already it's it's it's different different levels of fandom I think and different that you mentioned it right right at the top Max in in your introduction the stories that this tournament has brought and the stories that that this team have and the stories that this Euros have, that is what, you know, continues the legacy.

43:30We're giving a platform. It's amazing. So, you know, we're still at sky is the limit. Joe says, not a question, but I'm watching the Euros final and Seb just exclaimed, peanut! In a way that made him sound like a Cockney shouting peanut, which made me laugh. How much of a come down, Seb, will be a 3pm Burnley Nottingham Forest game in a couple of months?

43:51Seb Hutchinson:Well, I've got Birmingham, Sheffield United in the first round of the Carabao Cup that's my comeback it came for the new season and nothing against those two sides but um I think St Andrews on a Tuesday or Wednesday night or whether it is it will feel different but I think I think I think that's the buzz it's just the buzz of football what I've loved about this tournament and it has been my favorite from a commentary point of view but mainly because England won but they took you from moments where you just thought well this is coming to nothing to you know moments that will go down in history as far as england teams in tournaments and that joy and knowing it's actually rare it's rare really knowing that the majority of the audience the vast majority of the audience wants one of the teams to win as in england and you are on that train because a lot of the time sure you have to be you know neutral really even though people might be accusing you of supporting one team over the other you're neutral you're down the line it's your professional angle and covering England gives you that rare chance to show a little bit of the football fan in you um and you know some people disagree they think you should still remain neutral covering England I mean I completely disagree I completely disagree because I don't think from international football that's what makes it so pure in a way is that you just by just by your cultural upbringing uh you are you're just connected by default or you reject it by default so i just don't think it's something that you could i just don't i can't really picture somebody watching the game thinking oh you know don't really have an opinion on uh this if they're from the uk i mean that's what i mean i can't imagine people in wales and scotland going oh you know come on england you know friend of the pod barca jim you know who obviously has totally against the england men's team this was the game that turned him to be totally against the england women's team as well which i think is the greatest sign of progress yeah exactly um i just matt said this is any sport more resistant to having the best team always win than football and is this what makes football so great and i think nick that is it isn't it that you don't have that is why and obviously it's not an objective panel for people on a football podcast saying football is the best sport but it is and it is because you don't have to be the best to win and and that takes it to a level that's different to pretty much any sport completely and i and i think that maybe is partly why you know and why the way england won it has probably been quite good for the hype back home and everything because if you're cruising through a tournament winning a three nil every time if you're winning the semi-final against italy four nil that quite a few people were predicting it's very very nice but what are you talking about at work the next day like where where are the crowds of people in in the pub watching extra time at 10 30 losing their everything when when the winning penalty goes in it creates those moments and that glorious uncertainty and the and spontaneity is something that you you don't get in i think any other sport and we all agree on that so it's yeah without doubt but i think the way that england did it even if we can nitpick at most of the performances in some way was just absolutely perfect for maintaining the momentum and hype and good feeling around the game and around the sport that we've just been talking about.