England face world champions Spain as international break commences – Football Weekly – Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30against Israel, both at neutral venues. Scotland have a new manager. Will he have a go? All the home nations in action, plus Zidane taking over France and Klopp picking two squads for Germany. Is doing Paul Watson's World of Football the podcast equivalent of scoring too early in this endless international break? Would you buy a piece of Old Trafford turf for£125? Would you eat a carrot because your favourite footballer eats them? Why was there a dog on the Women's Champions League coverage? All the big questions on today's Guardian Football Weekly.

0:58On the panel today, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hi, Max. Hello, Paul Watson from the Excellent Sweeper podcast. Hi, Max. And welcome, Seb Hutchinson. Hi, Max. Right, let's start with England-Spain. So we start touching on Monday, five withdrawals since Tuchel announced the squad. Palmer, Rice, Maynou, Rashford and Livermantle were pulling out. They brought in two players, James Garner and Morgan Gibbs-White, to fill the absence of those five. Obviously, the dropouts have led to a sort of frantic club versus country debate. I don't know, Seb, how much we can read into it, especially Palmer, Mainu and Rashford, who might have good reason to be slightly annoyed with Tuchel for what happened in that there World Cup.

1:41Seb Hutchinson:Or maybe they just have legitimate injuries. Yeah, possible. They need to have some rest. And the way Palmer started the season, having the summer off seems to have helped him a bit. But it's so difficult at this stage. When we return to international football, and I still have the feeling of the World Cup and how it ended and the disappointment, but then that third-place match, there's something about it that I enjoyed as well and I thought, can all international matches be a bit like this? No, they can't. They can't. We know that already. We don't know about conversations that happen privately between players and the manager.

2:21Seb Hutchinson:He seems to be an open manager in that regard. He would tell people what he thinks of them straight. and that could be part of it. You wonder with Kobe Mainu, for example, I think he was brought as part of the World Cup squad maybe because of his temperament and that he wasn't really going to be that player who was going to cause issues if he wasn't selected because there were opportunities for maybe him to be part of that tournament and it never came to pass even with Henderson getting injured, for example. So it has to be, I think, because of the length of the break, because of the way certain players have started, Mainu's been pretty good as well.

2:55Seb Hutchinson:There is a protection thing. They do have to think long term. If I'm part of this international break and I push myself and it breaks my season, based on the past, I might not be picked by Tuchel again. And in the Morgan Gibbs-White situation, having to be pulled out of your holiday after having the disappointment. And maybe, who knows, for some people, maybe that's a good thing, being pulled out of a holiday with a family. I mean, I can't comment, but all I'm saying is that for this particular situation, he'll just be pleased to be part of the England squad. He deserves it. Yeah, I think he does.

3:27Tugel said he wished he'd eaten some Azteca grass after the Mexico game. And he said, it feels like they're my players now. The World Cup represented something to build on. I'm very excited. I think we got another step closer and I think we're there. Barry, I don't know that's how fans are feeling. I think it's really interesting to see. Obviously, you know, it's a different crowd at this game than the people that follow to a World Cup. But I wonder if the general sentiment is he needs to do something in this game or, you know, there are knives being sharpened.

3:55Max Rushden:It's hard to know. Time will tell what reception he gets. I suspect it will be mixed. But he says he regrets not eating any of the Azteca grass. He certainly ate a big mouthful of this metaphorical pitch in Atlanta. I find the way he's trying to gaslight everyone into thinking that England's failure to close out the semifinal against Argentina, that it was nothing to do with him whatsoever, I find it really strange, partly because it seems to be working.

4:37Max Rushden:and I presumed he would be sacked after the World Cup because we were constantly told he was brought in specifically to do what Gareth Southgate couldn't, get England over the line and win a major tournament. And when he made such a dog's breakfast as the second half of the semi-final against Argentina, when England were really well placed to get to the final, a final they possibly could have won, I think they'd have given Spain a better game than Argentina did. And I read somewhere that Anthony Gordon said various Spanish players at Barcelona told him Spain would, they thought England would have given Spain a much better game than Argentina did.

5:16Max Rushden:I think anyone would have given them a better game than Argentina. So I presumed he would be sacked because he failed to do the job that was asked of him. But because they'd given him this contract extension before the tournament, he hasn't been. maybe he'll learn from what happened at the World Cup and they'll go on and win the Euros which is I don't know but I just find the whole thing weird but I will be very interested to see what kind of reception he does get from England fans because I'm not sure they're buying what he's trying to sell at the moment even if a lot of other people seem to be And Spain feels tough Paul they are good, I'm trying to work out what a good outcome what is a good outcome for tucco here right you know obviously you could like really mix it up and then result doesn't matter you could go listen result is everything here to get us all going well okay or like you could i don't know do you think ahead to like what we didn't do against argentina say pretend you're one nil up and just try and play differently obviously you can't recreate the pressure of world cup semi-final i'm interested how he approaches this yeah i mean i I think we're all looking for a 6-4, right?

6:27That's the precedent here. Our last game was 6-4 against France. We expect a 6-4. I honestly think he's kind of, it depends which way you look at it. He's either on a hiding to nothing or he's got a completely free shot here because honestly, no one really cares what the result is to a certain degree. I think what he would be well advised to do is to get England playing like a side that, you know, like the side that played France rather than the side that desperately tried to sort of scuff their way through to a World Cup final. I actually think Tuchel's done that thing that politicians do. You know when there's a politician and you think, oh, they're out, like there's a scandal and you think, oh, they're gone, there's no way to survive this.

7:05If they can just get out of public sight for long enough, then it kind of dissipates and everyone's like, oh, yeah, there was that thing and actually we were all really angry with that, but they somehow kind of weather it and then they're still there in that job sort of six months after they've given the nuclear codes to another country they're still there somehow and you're like you you didn't go and i feel like tukul's in that kind of position where he he looked like a dead man walking he's now not but i i don't think he's got a huge amount of support from the fans at all in my opinion i think he is gaslighting people if he's saying it's not his fault it was it was very clear if the if the public could have sacked him on the spot after that after that semi-final he was he would have been gone yeah Yeah.

7:46No, that is interesting, isn't it? And then you wonder if actually, does it matter how they do in this Nations League set? Like, do we say really it's, you know, he now has the next... I don't mind if you have him or someone else. It's probably better to say the Euros is yours. Whatever happens in this, it's a tough Nations League. Or like, do you think there is a pressure whereby they get tonked by Spain? This is a bad... It's four games, a lot of games. he has a bad run and they go you know now it's a case where the international break is so long that that people go well the premier league time is a good time for international managers to get sacked you know it's a dangerous time for him the two weeks of premier league football we have before the next international break but like do you do it's interesting it's it's hard to know what

8:31Seb Hutchinson:pressure he's under from the fa well i remember sir gareth he lost to hungary didn't he at thumping at home at Molineux I think it was and I remember at the time the pressure really was on Southgate considering what he'd achieved with England before that I think it matters these games do matter because the public has to build up a narrative don't they that we have to build up a narrative about the England team and where they sit if they play Spain off the park very unlikely but if they play Spain off the park then the expectation is back again and people will look at regret and say well if we'd reach the final if Spain come to Wembley and teach England a lesson and pass the ball around them then I think the pressure's on him because ultimately the standard that England have set and they're a victim of their own relative success is that the only thing England have now is to get over the line and win a trophy it's not a case of celebrating semi-finals like we used to you know growing up a semi-final was a massive thing there'd be documentaries and films about it now it's the bare minimum and the the gutting disappointment to be 1-0 up against argentina in semi-final and having his best finish in a in a major tournament since 66 that's that's what he's been brought in for but because he was given a contract not that long before the world cup you can't really then sack him after the world cup just because of the financial commitment that the fa has made imagine that they've done that and people would think there'd be complaints about that at the same time but say why have you brought this man in giving him a contract he's finished third and then you've sacked him yeah that's true i mean i think the contract didn't the contract came in because they thought premier league clubs were sniffing about i guess so then you kind of do have to make make a call or not barry i mean who would you like to see get some minutes uh for england or maybe you don't really care who gets any

10:26Seb Hutchinson:that's very fair you know i think gordon said he said that england should stop trying to play like spain because it's not in our dna which i slightly laughed at the pure sense that spain you know when it comes quite good you know that yeah they're quite good they win trophies but i get his point because i think it has harmed germany in recent years in particular this strive to maybe be a bit different and to lose your sense but i don't think we tried to play like spain isn't the whole idea we're trying to play like but if we if we played like spain in the last 20 minutes of the argentina game of course then they'd probably then it's a question do we do we have players who can play like spain right i mean that's an interesting well we sort of think of the field is going for 100 million and you think you'd like to have a bit of tiki taka in a 100 million power player wouldn't you but maybe yeah we've got a few of them but um yeah i mean i'd like to see a right back play um that would be nice and we've got one in the squad who's quite famous yeah so uh yeah let's see how that goes for trent if he starts him he'd probably play kwanzaa or konzaa at right back wouldn't he yeah no it's a nice idea isn't he said uh trent anzander arnold came in as a right back i think miles lewis skelly he's quite interesting there's no clamor the england public making this quite a good point i think paul about lewis skelly like there is a clamor for alex scott and Adam Wharton and Cobby Maynard and I like all those players but Lewis Skelly is you know often starting centre mid for the best team in the country after Brighton and uh and yet there isn't this kind of Lewis Skelly clamor but I I might not quite like to see a bit of him I quite like a bit of Ngomoua um I mean I care a bit more than Barry but I'm not I'm not like on tenterhooks to see what the starting 11 is yeah I'd like oh I'd like to see um Alex Scott play but that is just partly my Bristol City head like you know a player that was so brilliant for us it's lovely to see him kicking on as he has also be lovely to see someone from Guernsey in the England team right but we're clutching at straws here a little bit I would also like to see Konza and Kwanza so that we could see if we could get the most rhyming team possible and I think if there is a time for that it's the Nations League right if we could see if we could get an entirely rhyming England team I mean I'm now obviously just trying to think of footballers that rhyme with Konza and apart from Kwanzaa, you know, I am struggling.

12:43But anyway, England Play Check here on Tuesday. Look, we have so much England to talk about in the next few pods, so we'll wait and see what happens on Saturday and digest it on Monday, part two. We'll look at the other home nations and also look at Republic of Ireland against Israel.

13:05Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. The Republic of Ireland play Kosovo tonight. All the talk is about their game with Israel on Sunday. More than 160 Irish sports people have signed an open letter by the Irish Sport for Palestine group urging the men's team to boycott their upcoming games against Israel. So they play this Sunday in Hungary. The reverse fixture is in Serbia on the 4th of October. Letter states that the Football Association of Ireland, UEFA and the Irish government should have intervened before this stage, but there is still time to, quote, show the power of sport to unite.

13:34The statement says, putting on the Irish jersey representing your country means something. but the Ireland we want represented is the one that remembers its roots in anti-colonial and anti-imperial resistance, which Irish sport played a large part of. Not playing the game would be the most sporting thing you could do. Through your leadership and courage, it would show the power of sport to unite, remind us of the shared values that connect us all and have an impact far beyond the game. When asked about the games at the squad announcement, the Ireland manager Heimer Halgrimson said, I've said before, we're not playing with genocide.

14:02We're playing against genocide we're playing against israel we're not playing with israel last september an independent un commission concluded that israel has committed and continues to commit genocide against palestinians in gaza israeli authorities have strongly rejected the findings of that report it's been reported that the israel fa are considering filing a complaint to uefa over howkinson's comments in response they posted on x we've contributed to the world and humanity in countless fields earning an impressive number of nobel prizes along the way unfortunately we've not yet found a cure for stupidity, ignorance, and hypocrisy displayed by the Ireland football team coach.

14:36We're not playing with ignorance, hypocrisy, and stupidity. We're playing against the coach who embodies them. It's a lot to ask the players, Barry, who've been put in this position about whether they should play or not. Clearly, other international teams have played against Israel. I don't know if you feel the FAI has done enough. You know, you talked about already on Tuesday's pod about how little coverage there will be of this game. And it does seem to me like it is a very reluctant Republic of Ireland that are turning up for these fixtures.

15:03Max Rushden:Oh, it is. They have said they don't want to play the games or they would rather not have to play the games, but it looks like they're going to. In terms of your first question, I don't think the FAI have done anywhere near enough. I think they've been quite negligent, actually, and it's their fault. The players are in this position, but the players are all grown men with minds of their own, and I think they should be able to do whatever they feel is the right thing. I mean, right, the reason Israel haven't been suspended from UEFA competition is because no one has refused to play them. That's why Russia was suspended, because I think Sweden, Poland and Ukraine, the head of World Cup playoffs, said, well, you're not going to play these guys.

15:49Max Rushden:So UEFA's hands were forced. Israel should be suspended because they have breached FIFA and UEFA statutes because some of their clubs play in occupied Palestinian territories and they fail to implement anti-racism policies. So that's grounds alone for their suspension. But obviously what everyone is concerned about is the atrocities being committed in Gaza, the West Bank and southern Lebanon by Benjamin Netanyahu and his government and army. And I think that by playing Israel, Ireland will be supporting actors, I guess, in a show designed to promote Israeli state messaging. Now, the FAI were very vocal back in November in their efforts to try and have Israel banned from competition, UEFA competition, FIFA competition.

16:44Max Rushden:but then more recently 70 % of FAI members voted that these games should go ahead compared to 97 % who voted in favour of a motion to have Israel banned from international competition. And the talk in Ireland is that FAI higher-ups were bandying about these worst-case scenarios in an effort to get people to vote for these games to go ahead. they were saying that it could be potentially financially ruinous to pull out of the games, that Ireland might lose their position as co-hosts of the Euros if they refuse to play these games. There's no evidence to suggest that this would be the case. I mean, the sporting repercussions of not playing these games against Israel are you lose both games 3-0, you get a fine, you possibly get expelled from the Nations League.

17:42Max Rushden:you can't get promotion to group A because you can't win the group and you wouldn't get a guaranteed draw place in pot two for the Euro qualifiers if they don't finish in the top two of their group. I think there are small prices to pay for pulling out of the game. I don't know what you think. That's just my opinion, by the way. I'm not going to be very angry with the Irish players if they play the game, but I personally think they shouldn't and I would applaud them if they didn't but it looks like that's not going to happen. Nathan Collins is not with the squad. He's injured. Sardaro Shea is the captain and he has said that he and the players will play the game against Kosovo and then the next day sit down and have a chat about this game against Israel and decide if there's going to be some sort of protest symbolic protest or whatever.

18:42Max Rushden:So they still could turn around and say, we're not going to play, but it looks very unlikely. I mean, I think it's almost worse than, say, sporting teams playing South Africa during apartheid. That was really frowned upon. And I almost put this in the same bracket, or I would put this in the same bracket. Yeah, I mean, I don't disagree with anything you've said. I just wonder if the FAI would say they've done more than lots of other FAs, right? You know, you are dumped into this position and sometimes, you know, it's easier to make moral decisions when you don't have to make the decision, if you see what I mean.

19:21But like even voting to ban Israel, lots of FAs haven't done that.

19:27Max Rushden:I think every other FA would have been in support of that motion if it had passed. but when they had to make a decision that where they didn't weren't going to have the cooperation of anyone else they kind of bottled it in my opinion like what i don't think they've done anything really the irish government have said this game these games should go ahead but i think they're afraid of the repercussions of upsetting america if they didn't go ahead and look loads of people in Ireland don't want the games to go ahead. And they have many critics who are vocal in their belittlement of them. They call us Padistinians.

20:10Max Rushden:They call us anti-Semites. And then they engage in whataboutery, which is valid up to a point where they talk about atrocities that are happening elsewhere in the world. Like if Ireland had to play DR Congo, would they pull out with that one? If they had to play Sudan, would they pull out with that one? Their most recent game was a friendly against Qatar who perpetrate human rights abuses. So they have a bit of a point there, I guess. But yeah, my opinion is that Ireland shouldn't play. But I'm not going to stand or thump a pulpit over it. If I could just jump in, I mean, like, even on a footballing level, so league football just returned to Palestine and they called their return tournament the Cup of a Thousand Martyrs.

21:04And that's because a thousand and fourteen Palestinian athletes have been killed by Israel, according to the Palestine Football Federation's figures. and in in the midst of one of these statements there was this this line that just jumped out at me that a palestinian goalkeeper was killed while waiting for humanitarian aid and then you're telling people to go out and play against this nation as if nothing's happened this this very much for me sits it's abhorrent to that notion and it sits very much at the feet of uefa who are the ones saying go out and play this game right i think they have just not made a stand and obviously this has been going on for a long time and we've talked about it before and i think it is now widely understood that you should be able to criticize a government and be this israel and a and a prime minister and a leader without being accused of being against the religion of that country it's not anti-semitic to criticize israel and netanyahu in the same way it's not islamophobic to criticize human rights abuses in qatar or saudi arabia um but we will face you know for the tone of this conversation we will face that criticism i've faced it before on things we've done on this podcast but um i i i don't disagree with anything that anyone has said on this um and like we say tried it is to go on talk about atrocities to talk about football but that's what this podcast is scotland plays slovenia uh in lubliana on saturday a new coach sebastian Pocognoli's first game in charge, having replaced Steve Clarke, first non-Scottish manager since Bertie Vokes, who was in charge from 2002 to 2004.

22:42And I guess, I was chatting on the radio to Barca Gym about this yesterday, Seb, and he just wants a manager that has a go. And I guess... What does that mean, though? Well, I think it means, and this is the interesting thing is... He wants Scotland to play like Spain. Yeah, he wants Scotland to play. No, no. It's not in the DNA, yeah. clearly steve clark got them to major tournaments and like if pocai noli doesn't do that then he's not as good but what he wants i guess is to get there and then just try because you know they looked at what cape verde did in the world cup and they looked at how they approached very difficult games it's not a crime to not get out of that group when you've got brazil and morocco it is an unanswerable question we just have to see how he approaches all of them yes yes and it feels i

23:27Seb Hutchinson:mean he's really freshened up the squad looking at the squad list i mean there's players on there that I've never seen play before myself. So you think about a new wave for Scotland. And I, you know, during the World Cup, probably, and I think what he was getting at, is the fact that when they played Haiti and they were 1-0 up in that game, and they were, in a weird way, hanging on at the end of that match. And I think maybe in their one win in the competition, that was probably the game that summed up how a lot of Scotland fans are feeling in general. Because against Brazil, they were relatively open.

23:59Seb Hutchinson:They tried to give it a go, but they were playing Brazil. That was the problem. So when you say give it a go, it depends on your opponent. I mean, I don't mean just give it away at the back. It's different to give it a go. Give it away. I mean, yeah. So I think in this particular, it is when they're playing teams that they look on the surface that we should be putting on a show. I remember before the World Cup, I watched them play Curacao and they went 1-0 down to Curacao in that friendly match. And you could just feel in the crowd, it's like, here we go again. Here we go. We just can't get a break.

24:29Seb Hutchinson:and everybody was thinking we're going to lose to Haiti. They didn't lose to Haiti. And the fact of the matter is in recent competitions, the fact that Scotland have been at recent competitions, to me, going back to the England debate, is it's that whole situation. If you have a generation of fans who are just like, let's just qualify for something. Now the qualifications are happening. Let's just go out there and express ourselves and show what we can do. But if you look at that latest Scotland squad, you don't see the talent there that is going to enable you to play that way. So it's that Catch-22 situation, and it's not helped, I suppose, from a Scotland point of view.

25:04Seb Hutchinson:It's a grander picture to look at this. If they look at other nations of a similar population size and similar football madness, that they are doing better than them. That's probably what hurts the most out of all this. But that's more credit to what those nations have done. I don't know if it's necessarily possible for Scotland to get to that sort of scenario.

25:22Max Rushden:It is interesting. Like Sab, I looked at the squad list and there are an awful lot of players in there that I've never heard of. A lot of kids. 15 of this squad were not at the World Cup. Now, Craig Gordon obviously retired. Scott McTominay, Shea Adams and Laurence Shanklin are injured. But there's been a bit of a cull. Lyndon Dykes, Ross Stewart, George Hurst, Grant Hanley, John Sutard, Anthony Ralston. all left out. Olly McBurney is included and I think it would be criminal not to include him given how well he's been playing for Hull at the start of the season. During Group A it's going to be tricky but it'll be interesting to see how Pocognoli gets on.

26:13Max Rushden:He was part of the Belgian Golden Generation for a while but he sort of got jettisoned because he wasn't quite good enough to be fixture in the golden generation so he's but yeah I always enjoy seeing how Scotland get on and this is exciting times for Scotland fans I guess. Wales play Portugal tonight Denmark on Sunday got Norway as well feels tricky Paul can you have a group of death in the Nations League I feel there's enough jeopardy isn't it? That's the point of the Nations League. I mean, but also I wouldn't, I don't know you can call that a group of death. What, Portugal, Denmark and Norway?

26:59No, Denmark isn't. No, okay. It's a sort of, it's a pretty underwhelming group, isn't it? It's a group of sort of like, the group of man flu, maybe? Yeah, I mean, dark horses. They're all teams you could call dark horses, I guess. Yeah, Cristiano Ronaldo hanging on in there for Portugal still. What they'll do is, before long, they'll actually have him sit in a chair like a sort of throne that they assemble that they put on the edge of the box on the pitch okay on the edge of the box so that he can just get up when he deigns to take a free kick and he can sort of just sit back down with Roberto Martinez going you're like oh it's finally over and then in comes Jorge Jesus and he's just like another Ronaldo man and you're just like god when will this end?

27:42Ronaldo said I'm a thinker you have to think this is why you see me here now it means I will continue I had a conversation with our president with our coach I still believe I'm able to help the national team to reach what they want and we'll finish when I feel like I'm not doing anything here um well he needs 21 goals doesn't

27:59Max Rushden:he to get to a thousand career goals yeah and he said that's part of his motivation so he's literally saying this is about me um and as far as the Wales game is concerned Wales have a lot of injuries so I think they'll be really up against it here Harry Wilson Nathan Broadhead Carl Darrell Joe Roden Dylan Lawler Ruben Caldwell all out so I think they might struggle I mean a thousand goals is a lot of goals it is a lot of goals yeah I tried to count to a thousand once with a friend when we were in Fiji quite bored alternate numbers and that took a long time were you drunk no actually no we weren't but we got to 474 and then he said 485 we had to start again and we never got going again but you know i wish i had that freedom these days on norway by the way carrot sales are up 25 because erling harland did an advert for carrots um so i mean it's just tremendous he's quite often seen i didn't know this until i looked at it yesterday he's quite often seen just around and about eating a carrot and uh then he did an advert for bunched carrots and uh yeah Yeah, absolutely.

29:12Big news, shot through the roof. So well done to... Good eye for goal. Good eye for goal, absolutely. In any, you know, he doesn't need the floodlights, et cetera, et cetera. Northern Ireland play Georgia tomorrow and Hungary on Monday night. Seb, I asked for a pithy minute on Northern Ireland. Can you deliver it?