England qualify and Republic of Ireland keep World Cup dream alive – Football Weekly podcast

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30certain who goes where. Also, it took one Armenian headbutt and one Irish header, but the Republic are still in it. Evan Ferguson with a decisive goal, which means a playoff spot is still within reach. Wales took the lead against Belgium, who equalised with one of those handballs. Perhaps it would have been different if they'd held on for longer. Jeremy Doku was magnificent. And there's a classic lost bravely from Northern Ireland at home to Germany. Elsewhere, we'll round up Europe and congratulate Cape Verde, who qualified for the first time. Also, Jack Wilshere's confirmed at Luton, Millie Bright retires, and Barry's half-marathon quest begins in earnest.

0:59All that plus your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:06On the panel today, Dan Bardell, hello. Hello, Max. From NotTheTop20, Ali Maxwell, hello. Good morning. And from running, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hello, hello. Let's start then with Latvia 0-England 5. Six wins, no goals conceded. That's 37 World Cup qualifying games without defeat since 2009. Rich on Blue Sky says, do we even need to play the World Cup? It's so obviously coming home. It all seems a bit pointless. Mark says, does the panel have any views on Barry's cynical ploy to run himself to death to avoid it coming home next year? So look, we've qualified for the 2026 World Cup in USA, Canada and Mexico with two games to spare.

1:44It was very comfortable, Dan, wasn't it? Did you say 2009 was the last time we lost a qualifier? That's what I read somewhere and put it in. That is a long run. A very, very long run, isn't it? Longer than the run Barry's about to undertake. Yeah, look, what do you say? We've qualified. We should qualify. We always seem to qualify now, but I think we're starting to see a little bit more now about what Tuchel's England is about, that settled 11, making people have to work hard to get back into the squad, to get the shirt. If you play well, you keep the shirt. If you play well in one game, you play the next now.

2:24I think it's all looking pretty rosy at the moment. So like everyone else is saying, it's undoubtedly coming home and I'm getting ready for my summer celebrations already. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing though, Ali. I feel like I've had this conversation before. You know, as we round off a comfortable qualifying campaign and we say it's only insert patronised smaller nation and then say we should qualify. But this time it feels different. I've definitely said that before. Possibly. I mean, this has felt different because we're still learning about Tuchel and his stewardship. And I thought it was really funny, actually, looking back that after a good, solid home win in a friendly against Wales, Tuchel got the flamethrower out to talk about the atmosphere at Wembley.

3:10He did not need to say anything like that and stir that up. But I think you just have to accept that Tuchel is going to be a bit like that. last night you know there's not loads to report is there other than we now know that John Stones is sort of akin to Harry Kane just a complete lock to start for England at the back whenever he's fit he probably joins Pickford and Rice as the absolutely nailed on starters and you'd probably put Rhys James and Bakaya Saka in that as well albeit James was injured in this camp and Saka has been injured previously probably Harry Kane probably put Harry Kane in there yeah I think I did but maybe maybe oh did you Maybe we take Kane for granted so much, which is the oft-used expression, that I missed him out.

3:53Yeah, and Kane's finished with his left foot from 20 yards into the corner. Like, it's amazing that we have a player who can do that. And I think there's signs that Anthony Gordon is the left-sided forward that complements Kane the best. And that's obviously been a big talking point ever since Sterling's form for club and country has kind of fallen off a cliff. he was the only player that's really probably clicked with Kane in an England shirt the way that you'd want in that position and Gordon came into the the international break saying I don't feel like I've shown even half of what I can do in an England shirt and I'm really desperate to do that I thought I was quite sweet and vulnerable in a way and then he's absolutely backed it up with with both performances against Wales and last night against Latvia and I think he's probably the star of this international break so you know because we're always looking for some negatives even when we're winning every game to nil I would point out that qualifying with two qualifying games to spare is almost a bit annoying when there's now no competitive games until the world cup in that in that sense just two games next month where we've already qualified not much jeopardy on them the two friendlies in March and then the warm-up games that I think will be in Florida before the tournament and then the other negative if you're really digging is that the one team we thought were going to be a sort of sturdy opponent in this group was Serbia.

5:11We beat them 5-0 and we thought maybe we're just amazing and then subsequently they've proven that they are just in an absolute shambles and their coaches left during this international break. So yeah, we still haven't had a particularly stiff test but feeling pretty good about things overall. Yeah, somebody did message and I'm sorry I didn't write it down so I can't remember the name but it It was, you know, will the next international break be the most international break ever, given that there is literally nothing riding on it for England? I mean, I would go further, perhaps, and Ali, Barry, to say that that front six looks really, obviously injuries aside and dramatic losses of form aside, but that front six looks very settled with Elliot, Anderson and Rice behind Rodgers and then Saka, Kane and Anthony Gordon.

5:55Yeah, certainly none of them have done anything wrong. Rodgers wasn't as lively last night against Latvia as he has been in the past but that's severe nitpickery on my part I mean I just keep some brilliant players are going to be left out of this squad and that is a fact because I think it's probably going to be 26 I don't think that's nailed on yet but whether it's 23 or 26 some really top quality players are going to be left crushed by their omission. It's a problem. God, I'd love if Ireland had problems like that. But I can't, boring myself now, I can't see Drew Bellingham not being in the team.

6:42I think he will be. But if I was him, I'd still be a bit nervous. I don't think Thomas Tuchel, he doesn't strike me as an even remotely sentimental man. I don't think he'll have any problem leaving out big names if he has to. big names will be left out. The problem for England is they haven't really faced anyone good and I don't think the weather in the States is going to be a big problem. I think that's going to be the most problematic factor at the World Cup. That and if England come up against a really good team in stifling conditions, that could be their undoing. Which I guess means you need a midfielder to keep the ball, right?

7:26which is why Elliot Anderson is so key. I suppose the interesting thing about if Roger starts and Bellingham's on the bench, Dan, it's going to be a real test of Morgan Rogers, how he deals with pressure, because he will know that basically as soon as the game, whichever it is, isn't going quite right, whether it's breaking down a low block or we're losing to France in the quarterfinals, there'll be the clamour for Bellingham or the clamour for whoever isn't on the pitch, I guess. I think that's the way it always is, though. I think that was the way it was in the last Euros when we weren't exactly pulling up trees, excuse the pun, after the stadium last night.

8:04Oh, they were so nice. They were very, very nice. I enjoyed watching them, in fairness. There's always players to come in. There's always club bias. There's always people wanting the player from their team, saying that they should be the one starting. I think what Tuchel's doing well at the moment is he's just kind of proving to all the players in this kind of short spell that if you play well, you will keep the shirt. I don't mind leaving big names out whereas previous England managers have maybe been a little bit guilty of shoehorning players in maybe trying to get not the best 11 but apparently who the best 11 players are into a team.

8:38We saw it with Foden in the last Euros and it didn't really work. I think Tuchel, like Ali says, he's almost prepared to throw a flamethrower at things. I think the difference is that because Thomas Tuchel knows he's going to be so short term he doesn't mind upsetting people whereas again maybe previous England managers they're so desperate to keep the job they're probably doing things that they wouldn't normally do although they don't necessarily think is the right thing for the team so the way Tuchel's behaving and what he's actually doing is the right thing for England and we're seeing that because we're seeing better performances and more balanced performances now and people will be left out there's going to be so many players that don't even go to this next tournament there's going to be so many good players sat on that bench we're in a really, really healthy position.

9:24There's maybe only a few places in the team, as you said earlier, that there's maybe only a few places in the team where we don't know who the guy is in that position. But things are looking good. Things are looking fresh. And these last two international breaks, whereas I wasn't quite seeing it before, the last two now I'm starting to see it. Ali, interestingly, Mark Gay played well and didn't keep his shirt. I don't know if that's a fitness thing or you talk about John Stones being a lot, but I would remember Stones and Gay would be your starting partnership at centre-back? Yeah, Konza starting over Gehi last night definitely gave me sort of pause for thought.

9:59Gehi's more comfortable as the left-sided centre-back, but Stones played left centre-back with Konza alongside him. So if Gehi was playing, would Stones play on the right and Gehi on the left? You know, this is where we're at at this stage and it's a good position to be in, kind of really drilling down on that sort of thing. But Stones looked incredibly comfortable. Look, Konza and Gehi are both exceptional and I think in any other era, both of them would be playing for the major teams in English football. And I think it just shows the strength of the Premier League and the kind of heft of clubs such as Aston Villa and Crystal Palace that they are able to keep these guys.

10:32They're both unbelievable and would have such bigger and better reputations if they were playing for bigger and better clubs. But when you watch them play for England, they're pretty flawless, both of them, every time they play. Konza in particular, I think, is just an unbelievable defender. a great recovery tackle last night. And if you consider that centre-back partnerships are more important really than the individual players themselves, what's more important is that they work well as a duo. I think it is significant that Konza started last night and got that time alongside Stones and looked exceptional because I wonder if he might be a slightly better fit, maybe being a bit stronger aerially, a bit more size to him than Gehi.

11:13Yeah, that is one of the interesting decisions for Tuchel to make as we get towards the tournament. But interestingly, that a club that is as tin pot as Aston Villa have, you know, a couple of players starting down in this team. I'm kidding, of course. Won the Wales game, Villa. Two goals and an assist from Aston Villa players of Oracle. Are Aston Villa going to be the 2026 West Ham? Well, we wear Clara and Blue, so, you know, we're halfway there. We can say one thing for sure is West Ham aren't going to be the 2026 West Ham. Well, I mean, unless Jared Bowen pulls it all out. What did you make, Barry, of Thomas Tuchel?

11:43I thought the way, how brilliant to diffuse the situation over, you know, the fans singing, you know, are we loud enough for you? We'll sing when we want, et cetera. The two and a half thousand traveling fans. And he just laughed about it and said, yeah, I got some stick. Well done. It was good humor. I accept it. See ya. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, I think there was a bit of an edge to the chanting. And he, it was quite funny. but fans creating an atmosphere isn't going to be, well it will be an issue in the States and Canada and Mexico insofar as only very rich people are going to be able to attend games Travelling fans generally make noise, although I did read from Jacob, I think it was Jacob's analysis last night or maybe Dave Heitner's piece that quite a few of the fans left before the end last night because the game was very late and it was difficult to get back into town so i'm not sure what tuchel will have made of that but traveling fans generally do their bit if even if the atmosphere at wembley can be extremely lethargic to non-existent at times what does ali what does um tuchel do in the next two games because they don't it doesn't really matter he could pick anyone yeah i there's some sort of mental gymnastics I've been trying to do here because he was so adamant that he wanted to keep the same group that had done so well for him in September that same group apart from Saka coming in for the injured Madueke which was very convenient by the way Madueke's injury because would Saka have come into this squad otherwise thank goodness for Tuchel that he didn't have to answer awkward questions like that if he'd picked him and not Bellingham but obviously in the next camp he may be able to claim that although that group of players have been excellent now for two subsequent camps it would be worthwhile for him to have a look at people like Jude Bellingham who I guess would come in for Morgan Gibbs-White, Adam Wharton potentially who would probably come in for Ruben Loftus-Cheek, Jack Grealish maybe albeit Gordon and Rashford at the moment seem pretty locked in on the left-hand side of the attack Foden possibly but it kind of feels like he's barely part of the conversation at the moment England wise because you know as all these conversations come back to there's only you know there's a cutoff point at some point whether you have 23 26 100 players in a squad there's going to be a cutoff there's going to be people that miss out we tend to focus on on those that miss out but I just wonder if there's any scenario where the English football public could approach a major tournament and just be like, yeah, I like this team.

14:32I like this team and I'm not that worried about the 24th man who's sad not to make it. Like, I wonder if we could ever get to that point. I don't think we could. But based on the last two camps, we've certainly got a group of players playing really, really well, way more attacking verve than we've seen for the last few years and currently looking pretty solid defensively, albeit famously not very tested. and when we were against Senegal, looked incredibly wobbly. Actually, just finally, Dan, on Jordan Pickford, who set some... What is it? The most number of clean sheets in a row? Nine clean sheets in a row.

15:08Nine clean sheets in a row. And Lee Dixon made a point on commentary about he hasn't conceded a goal since Lee Carsley was in charge. And I wonder why... Maybe it's a bit like Ali was talking about Esri Concer, that no bigger club than Everton has gone in for Pickford. Because he has a... reputation that he's got a mistake in him, but he doesn't really make them. No, I can't remember the last big mistake he made for Everton. I'm sure Everton fans can, but I don't remember it. I remember covering England before the Euros in 2021. I remember at that point being worried about Pickford because he was making mistakes in the Premier League and thinking, well, if you're going to win a tournament, you're not going to win a tournament with a goalkeeper like that.

15:49And England still haven't won a tournament since then, but it's not because of the goalkeeper. He is just ultra consistent. he seems to put on that England shirt and almost be flawless every time. It must be hard in those kind of games like last night as well when you haven't got much to do and then suddenly there's a period where you're called into action and he dealt with what was thrown at him in the brief periods that he was busy really, really well. I think in my lifetime certainly, as much as I love big David Seaman and I'm sure we all do, I think Jordan Pickford has been the best England goalkeeper that we've had, just ultra consistent, knows what he's doing, a big part of the dressing room as well a leader and probably could have gone to play for a bigger team than Everton.

16:29But I guess if nobody ever comes in for you, you stay where you are. The Everton fans will be delighted to have him because there's teams that have got higher aspirations than Everton that have struggled and scratched around for a goalkeeper for the last few years who would have loved to have had him, I'm sure. Hello, Chelsea. Hello, Manchester United. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, just signed a new deal with Everton. Anyway, that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll do the rest of the home nations, beginning with the Republic of Ireland.

16:59welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly would i get in trouble for referring to republic as a home nation barry that's how i like to see them in a neighborly way you won't get in any trouble from me you might get in trouble from others okay fine my apologies but you could still make it barry yeah we could um i mean we beat armenia 1-0 it was another grim watch. Ireland are a team with no confidence and there's no reason why they should have any confidence really. The first half was diabolically bad and then Armenia had a player sent off for sticking the nut on Finna Zaz early in the second half and after that things got easier for Ireland they scored with a Evan Ferguson scored with a header that proved to be the winner but as soon as they scored, they sat back, low block, invited Armenia on.

17:55Armenia, you know, they're, I think, 103rd in the world. We've scraped a win against them. It leaves us in contention to qualify, but I think we need to get something against Portugal at home in our next game, and then we need to beat Hungary in Budapest to have any chance of qualifying. I think that is highly unlikely but if we were to pull off the unthinkable and qualify picking our squad of 26 will not be as difficult for Heimer Helgremsen as picking England's squad of 26 will be for Thomas Tuchel It might be difficult in terms of finding 26 good footballers I didn't see anything they won, that's the only positive you can take from that game because the performance wasn't good.

18:48They just look scared all the time. And that's not, you know, there's no reason why they should be. But we often talk about the weight of the England shirt, but these guys really seem to be, it's like they're playing in green chain mail. Even if we did qualify, I couldn't see us doing anything other than make up numbers. For those who aren't across every single player, what's the midfield? Like, what is the quality of play? We sort of talk about the home nations going, well, look, you have a good level of player and they need one or two superstars. And so, you know, at the moment, none of the sides, you know, Wales obviously have a really actually a good level, base level of player.

19:30I think Scotland could say the same. We feel like it's a bit of a step down to who's actually in the Ireland team short of, I don't know, Nathan Collins and Cuevan Kelleher, maybe Evan Ferguson. Halgurmson plays five at the back. I would say three at the back, but it's generally five. And I think that's a mistake because last night we really struggled to dominate the midfield. The midfield last night, you see Seamus Coleman playing right wing back. He was really good, actually. Will Smallburn, Jason Malumby, Ryan Manning, Festi Ebuseli, Finna Zaz, none of them world beaters. Evan Ferguson up front and the back three was Jacob Ryan, Nathan Collins, Darrow Shea.

20:17But Halgorson also, despite the paucity of quality players at his disposal, doesn't seem to know, have a clue what his best team is. And he keeps, you know, people who are left out the last squad or back in in this one. And I thought he would be better, I must say. I've been disappointed with Heimer. I expected a lot better from him let's go to Wales then they lost 4-2 at home to Belgium they took the lead by that Joe Roden header after 8 minutes and I know Barry I mean we can't have this conversation again about the handball but if they hold on to that lead for much longer it does change the game perhaps I mean Belgium were really good Docky was brilliant in this game and they deserved to win but it feels like a pivotal moment to me and it's just such a ridiculous it's so ridiculous I can't believe that And I think people now think it should be a handball.

21:10I'm just furious about it all. Yeah, and for anyone who didn't see it, it was Charles de Quetelaire struck the ball against Ethan Ampadu's outstretched arm. There was no possibility of Ampadu getting his hand out of the way in time. But I knew straight away it would be a penalty. It pretty much is a penalty these days, whether you like it or not. That's the way the game is. we constantly moan about handballs. The second one, I wouldn't have a problem with. No, same. That was a handball because he leaned into it, who was Jordan James. But the first one, it was harsh. But then there's the breaks.

21:51I mean, Wales started the game brilliantly. They scored. And it was a textbook. If anything, Clive, they've scored too early. And Belgium were just better than them. and Belgium deserve to win. I don't think the game or the outcome of the game hinged on that penalty against Ampadu being given or not. Yeah, I think you're right. But I think, I don't know what you think, Ali, I think that Catelera is playing for it. I think we're in an out-of-stage where players are like, I'm in the box, I'm not sure what to do. If I just flick this up, it could hit someone in the hand. We don't want footballers doing that.

22:24I can see how you'd see it like that. I mean, was he trying to pick someone out? It was, yeah, it's really tough to take. It ruins what can be good, interesting spectacles. It's incredible that with so much scrutiny on the game and the laws of the game and tweaks to certain laws that we still have not got this right and very, very frustrating. I think there was a handball in the first game they played against Belgium as well. They have just had a historically bad run of handballs like that. They lost narrowly in the last game against Belgium. they lost relatively narrowly in this game as well lost to England lost to Canada and and scraped to a win in the last international break that wasn't hugely convincing so I think I've been quite taken by Craig Bellamy Wales manager to be honest I like the way that he talks about the game I think he's a really interesting character a great example of a manager not fitting in the box that people put you into based on what you were like as a player and various stories from within the dressing room but you have to say it's been a really bad last two breaks and I kind of feel like some of the air has been let out the balloon both the way that they started the game at Wembley was obviously unacceptable for the Wales fans and as you say that they are not as good as Belgium so losing this game is not a disgrace by any means I was talking to some Wales fans who basically said look we're we're basically a playoff team in qualification campaigns you know we're rarely going to win a group if we're in a group with Belgium or another nation on that level so we are a playoff team and so success for us depends on whether we make the playoffs and then obviously how we do within them and they still have a chance of that.

24:12Dan Jeremy Docky was was brilliant he's having a good season but he was brilliant Tom Lockyer on Five Live said it was the best performance he'd seen in his lifetime which is i mean i'm i'm kind of when if i'm asked that question i can't think of an individual performance where i've gone that's the greatest performance i've ever seen in my lifetime but it seems like hyperbole because i've seen lots of performances and lots of good ones but he but he was he was really excellent yeah like you say he's got off to a good start to the season to man for manchester city as well kind of seems to have started started to deliver that that end product that was maybe missing from his game in previous years.

24:50I think what Ali says, you're coming up against footballers who are at a different level to you. It's really difficult for the Wales players and when a player like Docu's on song, they're going to struggle to deal with him because Belgium have got upper-end Champions League players playing for them and Wales, with all due respect, have maybe got lower-end Premier League players and top-end Championship players in their 11th over a player like Docu's on song. It's going to be difficult for them to deal with but I think what Bellamy's trying to do generally is make Wales a bit more easier on the eye.

25:20He's got this ethos, he's got this way of playing. And Ali said the Wales fans say that they're a playoff team. Well, you can either get to the playoffs, kind of backs against the wall, losing games 1-0, or you can have more exciting international breaks where you lose a game 4-2 and you actually have a go. And I know which side of the fence I'd rather be out of those two options. Bellamy made the point after the game that he said, we've scored five goals against Belgium. We haven't got a point in the two games. So, you know, Belgium are just better than them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an inescapable fact.

25:52It's not an insult. They're just better. Yeah. I mean, there was that, you know, broadhead scores and you think, okay, we're going to have real fun in this injury time. And then Trossard just scores a second later. And so that was a bit annoying, wasn't it? But yeah. There was an interesting delay in this game, Max. I don't know if you saw, but a rash. ran onto the pitch and Thibaut Courtois tried to pick it up and Thibaut Courtois just soared in my estimation at that moment because that had been me and a rat was coming for me I just sprinted to the touchline jumped into the stand Eric Cantona style to get away from it and yeah eventually the rat had to be ushered off the pitch by Brennan Johnson at which point a ball boy tried to pick it up again tip of the hat to him He doesn't even have gloves on does he?

26:47Yeah exactly and then the rat escaped and then afterwards the Cardiff City Stadium head of operations seemed to have to give this apologetic interview to explain as if it was in some way his fault there was a rat on the table anyway yeah it was a quite bizarre interlude in an already entertaining game he described the rat as a freak of nature which was one of the funniest one of the funniest things i think i've ever read the erling harland of rats isn't it you know you know stopping this rat is there um wales can finish second they've got games against lichtenstein and north macedonia north macedonia three points ahead have one game left to play so a win or draw against lichtenstein would mean winning the final game against North Macedonia would put Wales in second.

27:44A draw could be enough if they thrash Lichtenstein by six goals or more. Not impossible. It means that game will be fun. And finishing second matters as they'd be in a pot one for qualifying, meaning a playoff against someone like Moldova. Finishing third would mean a playoff against someone like Italy. Yeah, which is harder. Not necessarily. No, you're right. Northern Ireland lost one, they let home to Germany. I thought, Dan, they were unlucky in this game. Like, you know, Germany scored, hit Volta Mata's shoulder. Michael O 'Neill was funny afterwards when he said, oh, yeah, they played no more long balls than us after, you know, the Germany manager, Julian Nagelsmann, had talked about how many long balls Northern Ireland play.

28:25But in that last sort of 15, 20, they had a few openings, didn't they? And just 1-0. No really clear cut chances, but it just felt like, oh, they were close. Yeah, I watched that game. I thought Northern Ireland were really, really good. I think maybe Republic of Ireland fans might be watching Northern Ireland thinking, why don't our players play like that? And I think the difference is the manager, Michael O 'Neill, he's in his second spell there and he just knows how to get the players playing above themselves. And they did that again against Germany. At the end, Germany were literally clinging on a mixture of nice football and direct football from Northern Ireland.

29:00And they quite easily could have got something out of that game. I remember last time I was on, Ali spoke about Shea Charles and he probably didn't have his best game, but you could just say that there's a classy operator in the middle of the park there. I think Northern Ireland were playing three at the back as well, but it's not the five that Barry talks about with the Republic of Ireland. Players are coming forward and trying to cause problems. I think they were unlucky to lose. From watching Germany, I don't think I'll be putting them among my favourites to win the World Cup in the summer because it's an unrecognisable Germany side.

29:34They were pretty dull, pretty dour. I don't know, they were probably missing a couple of players, but they just weren't a good watch at all. Yeah, yeah, and I agree with you. I mean, Michael O 'Neill, Ali, at the end of this game, was absolutely furious, wasn't it? Sort of lots of finger-pointing at the ref because I think there was like two minutes or three minutes of injury time. That was a joke. Yeah, it was. I really agree with Michael O 'Neill. I feel he's sort of quite mild-mannered. He's not a man to go pointing just for the sake. It's not performative pointing. He's not a performative pointer, I'd say, O 'Neill.