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In short
England’s 5-0 win over Serbia (competitive test for Thomas Tuchel), plus other international qualifiers (Ireland’s 2-1 loss to Armenia, Scotland vs Belarus behind closed doors, Norway’s 11-1 vs Moldova, Italy’s chaotic 5-4 win over Israel), and Premier League club news (Ange Postecoglu appointed Nottingham Forest; Nuno Espirito Santo sacked).
Guests (panel)
John Brewin, Max Rushden, Nicky Bandini.
Guest backgrounds
Brewin and Rushden are Guardian Football Weekly regulars; Bandini is a football journalist and regular panellist on the show.
Key claims
Tuchel’s England looked quicker, more direct, and more “English” than under Southgate; Elliot Anderson’s midfield role should force selection headaches (vs Bellingham/Saka). Ireland’s defeat reflects tactical/selection problems under Heimir Hallgrímsson. Italy’s Gattuso-era attack is clicking but defending is chaotic. Postecoglu’s Forest appointment is exciting but potentially toxic given Nuno’s recent success and mismatched playing style.
Notable examples
Anderson’s forward/direct play; Serbia’s 5-4-1; Ireland’s disallowed goal and poor set-piece/long-throw execution; Norway’s Haaland scoring five in 11-1; Italy leading 4-2 then conceding to 4-4 before Tonali’s injury-time winner; Forest hiring Postecoglu after Nuno’s Europa League/7th-place run.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOEngland's Dominant Victory Over Serbia
1:32 to 1:51
Discussion on England's impressive 5-0 win against Serbia and expectations for the future.
“And when I said worrying news, it's nothing to actually worry about.”
Analyzing Tuchel's Impact on the Team
1:51 to 4:25
Exploration of Thomas Tuchel's influence on England's playstyle and team dynamics.
“Yeah, Dave says, where's the World Cup final being held?”
Elliot Anderson's Emerging Role
4:25 to 6:27
Discussion on Elliot Anderson's performance and his potential impact on the England team.
“One of the Americans is more of a football fan or a soccer fan and was fairly understanding of everything that's going on.”
Challenges and Depth in England's Squad
6:27 to 8:01
Analyzing the depth of England's squad and potential challenges for established players.
“And I think certainly when you look at the second goal, how nearly it came together, that was the sort of football I imagine that Tuchel wants this team to deliver.”
Breaking Down Serbia's Defensive Strategy
8:01 to 12:15
Insights into Serbia's defensive tactics and England's strategies to overcome them.
“particularly cares what the media make of him.”
The Future of Bellingham and Squad Management
12:15 to 14:00
Discussion on Jude Bellingham's role and the management of player dynamics by Tuchel.
“In recent weeks, we've heard a bit about the Bellingham camp.”
England's Performance Against Serbia
14:00 to 19:00
Analyzing England's strong performance against Serbia and player contributions.
“So the Bellingham question is a huge one that he's going to have to answer.”
David's Heartfelt Email
19:00 to 19:41
Listener David shares his journey with the podcast and upcoming live show.
“I'm afraid, Barry, with the Republic of Ireland's disastrous performance in Armenia.”
Preparations for the Live Show
19:41 to 22:04
Discussing the excitement and planning for the live show at Troxy.
“I'm a Spurs fan, but I don't think it was connected.”
Ireland's Disastrous Performance
22:04 to 25:00
A critical analysis of the Republic of Ireland's poor performance against Armenia.
Show all 23 chapters
Critique of Irish Coaching and Players
25:00 to 28:00
Examining the shortcomings of the Irish football team and management.
“You know, we talked before about Thomas Turkle talking, you know, about bringing about English football.”
Football Reflections on National Teams
28:00 to 28:20
The discussion delves into the current state of various national football teams, focusing on Ireland and Scotland's performances.
“Listen, I am an advocate of getting launched, but big lord above.”
Scotland's Match Analysis Against Belarus
28:20 to 29:50
A thorough breakdown of Scotland's recent match against Belarus, including player performances and match conditions.
“I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Nathan Collins because, as John said, they were all garbage, apart from Keeve and Kelleher, but he is supposed to be the calming influence, the steady hand on the tiller.”
The Impact of Crowd Absence in Football
29:50 to 30:40
Exploring the effects of playing matches without fans, specifically during the challenges faced in the recent qualifiers.
“And because Denmark beat Greece, hammered them in Athens, which I think people weren't expecting, given their performance against Scotland earlier in this break, it leaves that group wide open.”
Scotland's Goal Scoring Challenges
30:40 to 31:50
Analyzing Scotland's historical struggles with scoring goals and the implications for their international success.
“They find goals hard to come by, don't they?”
Norway's Dominance Over Moldova
31:50 to 33:10
An overview of Norway's impressive win against Moldova, including a detailed goal-by-goal breakdown.
“Before we do Italy's win against Israel, Norway beat Moldova 11-1.”
Italy's Rollercoaster Match Against Israel
33:10 to 34:50
A recap of Italy's dramatic victory over Israel, highlighting key moments and coaching strategies.
“Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe cheap.”
Debate on Israel's Participation in World Cup Qualifiers
34:50 to 36:50
A contentious conversation over the ethical implications of Israel's involvement in current qualifiers amid ongoing conflict.
“A goal down, then 2-1 down against Israel, came back to lead 4-2 in the second half and blew that as well.”
Discussion on Football Governance Issues
36:50 to 39:20
Exploring the complexities of football governance relating to suspensions and the ongoing situation with various nations.
“But yeah, I don't think it's controversial to say that Israel shouldn't be in these qualifiers.”
Ange Postecoglu's Management Style
42:00 to 44:15
Explore the implications of Postecoglu's return to management and his style.
“I think people would say Steve Cooper again after so long.”
Nuno's Impact at Forest
44:15 to 45:53
Discuss the significant achievements of Nuno and the challenges faced after his departure.
“So they're on for something, aren't they?”
Fan Expectations and Club Dynamics
45:53 to 48:01
Analyze the expectations of Forest fans and the dynamics within the club.
“I think it feels like it's going to be an atmosphere that becomes very toxic very quickly if Ange isn't able to walk in there and start winning right away because of all the goodwill that the fans have.”
Listener Engagement and Closing Remarks
48:01 to 50:30
Engage with listener feedback and wrap up the discussion with closing thoughts.
“And I think, I mean, he did change for the Europa League, right?”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.
0:30Nicky Bandini:Washington Wise.
1:00Nicky Bandini:Armenia. It's a disastrous defeat. Scotland win in an echoey empty stadium in Belarus. There's a huge late win for Italy and Norway score 11. Brackets write 11 in letters. Close brackets. Meanwhile, Nuno out and gin at Forest. Did the Maranakis blind trust thing mean that he didn't see any Spurs games in the Premier League last season? We'll discuss Nuno's legacy and celebrate the fact that Posta Coglu is back. There's worrying news for Baz, some classic email vasectomy wedding hits, your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.
1:31Nicky Bandini:On the panel today, John Bruin, welcome. Hello, Max Rushton. Hello, Nicky Bandini. Hello, Max Rushton. And when I said worrying news, it's nothing to actually worry about. I don't want you to be on edge for the podcast.
1:41Max Rushden:I'm already on edge. It's too late.
1:45Nicky Bandini:On edge after the Ireland performance, but we'll get to that. Let's start in Serbia then. Serbia nil, England five. Charlie says, where should England's victory parade start next summer? Yeah, Dave says, where's the World Cup final being held? And should us England fans book flights now? And Homer's Choice says, given how much the pod overreacts to poor performances by England, are you going to overreact to this good performance? I mean, John, it was, in a way, Tuchel's first real test in a competitive game. Serbia hadn't lost at home for two years. They hadn't conceded in qualifying until this game.
2:13Nicky Bandini:Morgan Rodgers, Anthony Gordon, Livramento all started. They all played well. In fact, England were just good. It was fun. It was quick. I enjoyed myself.
2:22John Brewin:England played English football as we've seen it. And it's taken a while under Thomas Tuchel. Actually, he hasn't had that long, but there's been an impatience about him, hasn't there? Particularly after Andorra, which was a grind for all of us, let's be fair. We move on and the sense is that they're playing in Serbia. They're playing a purportedly better opponent and England were able to raise their levels and play very, very well. And Thomas Tuchel, as a manager, is well used to English football. was successful in English football. And, okay, foreign appointments we've had previously. Sven-Jurin Eriksen hadn't coached in English football.
3:06John Brewin:Fabio Capello tried to make England play like an Italian team. Tuchel, having been in the Premier League, realises what the best facets of an England team are and is trying to implement that. He's slightly hamstrung by the fact that the England team that we've had for the last few years is probably a bit over the top. and he's having to find new players, but he's been pretty successful in that. Madiwecki's been a success. Elliot Anderson's been a success. I was just looking, actually, at where the World Cup final is held. It's at the MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. And I was thinking where the post-match celebrations could be held.
3:42John Brewin:And of course, Badabing from the Sopranos. Surely the England team should be hiring that out for the World Cup final celebrations, obviously.
3:52Nicky Bandini:And if it goes wrong, you know, Mark Bullingham just takes Thomas Tuchel out on a boat ride just for no reason. And Thomas goes, oh, it's time. Fancy a boat ride, Tom? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's good you're here, Nicky. I mean, it's always good you're here, obviously. But as a panellist who doesn't get carried away for good or bad, where are you? And I know you obviously have, you know, Italy are probably the team that you would will to win the World Cup the most. But watching this England performance, how carried away would you get? Yeah, it was really funny this last night because I actually watched it with some friends I've got visiting and two Americans and one Canadian.
4:32One of the Americans is more of a football fan or a soccer fan and was fairly understanding of everything that's going on. The other two, not so much football fans. And I was trying to brief them a bit and saying, listen, this might not be the finest example of football I could have shown you. right this is the game I need to watch but it's it's perhaps going to be a bit boring it's perhaps going to be a bit stiff because this England team they're not really playing this exciting flowing football and then they went and played some really good football and I was like oh actually that was that was quite a better example of football than I was hoping to or expecting to be able to give you but I don't know I think the problem with international football specifically is none of it is really equivalent to the bit that matters the bit that matters for England is quarterfinal, semifinals, final of a knockout tournament.
5:21In those games, you're going to play the two or three teams in the world at any given moment who are capable of winning that tournament, right? There's going to be a very small section of teams that could win this World Cup. And I think that England are in that group. And I would have said that before this game. I do think there are things you take from this that feel really, really encouraging. And there are concrete things like Elliot Anderson because it feels like Elliot Anderson offers something different in that midfield role something that perhaps plays really well for for Declan Rice partly because there's just that always been that feeling with with Rice that he feels when he feels more free to push on he shows the best of himself but I also thought that Anderson was just this brilliantly English directness and straightforwardness with the ball always moving it forwards, always taking it forwards, that I think felt like the start of an identity maybe as well.
6:17I really feel like in very little time at all, I'm looking at him and thinking he has to be part of this. He has to be starting because I think he brings a character to the team that it didn't have before. And I think certainly when you look at the second goal, how nearly it came together, that was the sort of football I imagine that Tuchel wants this team to deliver. And I think there was some really, really good stuff. And some of it isn't surprising. I think the depth of this England group has never been surprising. If I was to wave any flag of concern, it would be that actually, even at the Euros, we were talking about sometimes, oh, but would it be better even if Harry Kane wasn't starting and Watkins was starting?
6:57Sometimes the depth can be a problem. And looking at how well England played this game, I'm like, well, is there some suggestion that maybe some of the players who we've assumed are definite starters shouldn't be assumed as definite starters because this group behind them can really do things but but i come on they won five nil it was brilliant i thought this was a really really impressive performance and i'm trying to do because you want me to max you want me to be that voice of reason no you don't have to go wild um but i do think i do think it was really impressive way above what i was expecting
7:25Nicky Bandini:last night yeah and the interesting about anderson actually barry is it's not like he's sitting in a role where someone goes well doesn't really matter how well you play someone else as nikki alluded to. The interesting questions are about Morgan Rodgers was brilliant but we presume Jude Bellingham plays there. Mattawake was brilliant and we presume Saka plays there. Part of me would like Tuchel to give these guys the shirt next time and have Saka and Bellingham on the bench if they're available to say these guys have earned the right to keep those shirts.
7:53Max Rushden:Yeah, he could do that but he would get pelters from the media, one imagines. I don't think he particularly cares what the media make of him. He seems to have quite a fractious relationship with them, as most England managers do. I would take exception to the fact that we overreact when England lose, as one correspondent suggested. As someone who has sat here with my jaw on the floor while various colleagues and other people in the media have lavished Gareth Southgate with excessive praise for throwing away a sort of semi-finals and finals over the years. But anyway, that's in the past.
8:37John Brewin:Yeah, it doesn't mean you won't keep bringing it up, though. It doesn't matter.
8:41Nicky Bandini:Oh, no. It's all I've got, John. I mean, bringing up the past is, well, I don't know, bringing up the past feels like a lot of people. It's all I've got. It's all I've got to be.
8:50Max Rushden:Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, certainly those players, you know, if you get the shirt and you don't do anything wrong, I'm an advocate that you should get to keep it until you don't deserve it anymore. But if you're bringing in Elliot Anderson and starting him, and he has been superb over these two games, admittedly against poor opposition, who are you leaving out?
9:17Nicky Bandini:Well, I suppose that's the point where Anderson is not really leaving anyone out because it's sort of Adam Wharton who hasn't got to get in there yet. But you're leaving out Bellingham and you're leaving out Saka if you play Matawake and Rodgers.
9:29Max Rushden:Yeah, I'm a big Wharton fan, but I certainly can't fault anything Anderson has done over these two games. He's made a case. Quite a few players have had a very good window, this international window, and the players who left out who weren't there because they were injured will be looking on going, ooh, they'll be worried, I'd say.
9:51Nicky Bandini:And that's good. Yeah, it is. And actually, we mentioned that, you know, you want to make those players hungry. Rashford came on and looked so much hungrier and better yesterday, perhaps because Anthony Gordon had had a brilliant game out there on the left. I hated his penalty. I hated it so much. Even at 4-0, I hated that penalty. But yeah, I mean, he did come on and put in a sharp cameo. I think Baz has just alluded to it. And I do think it probably needs to be said that Serbia were a disappointment as the team that everyone was looking at and going, oh, this is the tough game in the group. I think that's generous.
10:24Nicky Bandini:I think that's generous, Nicky. And it was not surprising what they did, right? I mean, 5-4-1 and everything very, very squeezed together until they had that chance, any chance they had to stretch the pitch. You did see in position that they tried, but there just wasn't that much there. And I suppose that didn't come as a huge surprise when you looked at the team sheet. Perhaps you look at the team sheet and think, well, there's a couple of players at centre-back who I think are good players, Milankovic and Pavlovich. I've long not been the biggest enthusiast of Dusan Plus, from what I've seen at Juventus.
10:58So I didn't feel like on the times they did come forward, I didn't think they were going to provide such a terrifying threat and they didn't. It does need to be acknowledged that England in this group are absolutely in a different category of team to all the other teams in there with them. They haven't got a second team in this group who you would look at and think could go to the World Cup and challenge. And that's where England should expect to be. But it's still, it's not easy to break down teams that do that, that do 5-4-1 like that and that's where I come back to Anderson just bringing that it was it was a speed at which things happened it was the speed at which those those balls were played out of midfield it was a very clear plan it looked like early in the game to to try to make space down the right you had Madoeke sometimes holding his his position and staying a bit deeper which was bringing Bimanchevic up the pitch and that was making space for Rhys James or sometimes Morgan Rodgers to go into it felt like there was a plan for breaking down a team that was going to sit deep like that And I thought that was one of the things that was really encouraging, one of the things that felt like a little Thomas Tuchel stamp on the situation that he hadn't come in here not knowing what he wanted from this England team.
12:07Yes, Serbia didn't offer much, but you still have to break those teams down. And it seemed like there was a plan for doing that.
12:14John Brewin:It's interesting you mentioned Jude Bellingham. In recent weeks, we've heard a bit about the Bellingham camp. We've heard a bit about Jude Bellingham. I mean, obviously he's out at the moment. He's having that shoulder operation or had that shoulder operation.
12:29Nicky Bandini:Yeah, sorry, just to jump in, John, listeners might not have seen that. I think it was Olly Holt in the mail. Yes, okay. A piece about his dad sort of having an influence or something.
12:39John Brewin:Yeah, his father, Mark Bellingham, had a run-in with the sporting director at Borussia Dortmund, Sebastian Cale, over his son being substituted at halftime. That's the other son. Ollie Holt, a fine journalist, a schoolmate of mine, no less.
12:55Nicky Bandini:You Etonians are everywhere, John.
12:59John Brewin:Ollie wrote a piece talking about how the Bellingham family, rather overbearing the father, was one of these dads, you know, like your Richard Williams, your Earl Woods, that type of figure. Jude Bellingham hasn't convinced a few, there's a few people that are not convinced by Jude Bellingham for England. He's done some spectacular things. We've discussed this many times, Max. Making him compete for his place, how would that go? That's the interesting aspect to this. Adam Warton and Elliot Anderson, where you can probably, you know, that's one of those good headaches to have, you know, the great cliche.
13:37John Brewin:But this is where Tuchel's man management, and he is a good man manager, this is where it comes into play. what does he do with Bellingham when you've got a player like Morgan Rogers who seems to fit so well into the system or Eze could play that role as well. Cole Palmer. Yeah, I mean, Phil Foden. I mean, this guy is booking for the Bahamas next summer or whatever at the moment. So the Bellingham question is a huge one that he's going to have to answer. Now, whether we can refer that back to his father or not, that's a separate issue. But Morgan Rodgers, you can't really drop him, as Barry said, on those performances.
14:21John Brewin:He's such an intelligent player. And we talk about between the lines. And he links play between the lines in a way that, I'm sorry, we haven't seen Jude Bellingham do enough of that.
14:32Nicky Bandini:And actually, the hard thing about breaking down a team, Barry, is that final pass. The bit of skill that Rodgers did to set Matawaki away is the thing that we've been desperate to see that we didn't see at all against Andorra. And they can come off or they can't, right? But it did come off. Roy Keane compared him without getting carried away to Gaza yesterday. Yeah, I think it's so fascinating what Tuchel does in that 10 spot now.
14:57Max Rushden:It is, yeah. And he doesn't have a huge amount of time to decide what it is he wants to do. But England last night were everything. They weren't against Andorra, which sort of furthers my or cements my theory that they have a mental block against these teams they're told will be hard to break down. Because last night they were intense, ruthless, quick, really quick, showing a turn of foot and pace that they didn't against Andorra. And everyone seemed to be on the same wavelength, and that's really important. So why would you want to scupper that just by crowbarring in someone who might not be on the same wavelength as everyone else.
15:44And actually, Nicky, defensively, we haven't really talked about,
15:47Nicky Bandini:they haven't conceded yet. And okay, you mentioned the opposition aren't amazing, but that is still something. They did concede against Senegal, didn't they? And that friendly. And we talked on Monday about what the back four would be, but actually adding Livermento, adding Concert, when Jed Spence came on as well, there's so much speed in that back four now. And they did look incredibly solid. Yeah, it's a pretty nice day, isn't it? When you keep a clean sheet and both your centre-backs score as well. Constance and Gehi, I think, looked really, really comfortable. And it is, unfortunately, it's repetitive to say it, but it is difficult to know how much to take from a game where your opponent is offering so little going forward.
16:30But I do think there's a lot to be said for partnerships and there's a lot to be said for players who get used to playing together and build that confidence and relationship together. And that's another of those questions, isn't it? what happens for John Stones if he's coming back. Has Tuchel spoken very positively about him? Is he someone who's going to be guaranteed that chance to return and be a starter? I think it's going to be one of the questions that Tuchel has to think about. But in terms of this game, nothing but encouraging signs from that group, definitely.
17:00Nicky Bandini:Yeah. And I wonder, John, there's something interesting about if your England team, if the players play for Aston Villa and Crystal Palace and Nottingham Forest, as opposed to Real Madrid and Liverpool and Man City, that you sort of, you judge them, but you sort of go in going, ah, centre-backs of Villa and Palace. That's not elite, but probably doesn't matter if it works.
17:23John Brewin:It's funny, before the game, I was sent a list, the team list, and the clubs they play for, and we were laughing at it. It was like a sort of team list that you get in the late 80s, early 90s. It's like a Graeme Taylor selection. You know, it's like, should the Aston Villa... Because we have become used to this dominance of players from Manchester United, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal, whatever, Manchester City. The Premier League is the premium league in the world. These players are high quality. Someone like Mark Guay would be a Liverpool player if things had gone slightly differently. A lot of those players would be...
Read the full transcript
18:02John Brewin:I mean, Morgan Rodgers was a Manchester City player. You know, it's like the trickle-down from the clubs at the top. There was another good thing where I saw Harry Kane give a little speech after. Have you seen this? Talking about how he'd obviously been at Tottenham when Jed Spence arrived and knew the journey that he'd been on to get there. And he said he was almost tearful to see how far he'd come from the player that arrived at Tottenham. Which, you forget that Harry Kane, you know, is fairly implacable in public. but I think he's quite a legion. There's quite a power behind the throne now.
18:37Nicky Bandini:We're going to win the World Cup, John. It's so good, isn't it? Yeah, well, look, well done to Jed Spence and everyone. How exciting. The open-top bus. Yeah, I can just see it. We'll be in New York, Barry, apparently. This is the plan. We could be there, Barry. You could be there to celebrate England's World Cup win. Don't worry. You'll probably have the last laugh. You have before. Anyway, that'll be for part one. Part two will begin. I'm afraid, Barry, with the Republic of Ireland's disastrous performance in Armenia.
19:41Nicky Bandini:welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly david writes dear max barry and producer joel i'm a huge fan of the pod came to it by a sort of happy coincidence when max joined in august 2017 after having a bit of time on my hands following a very unexpected and fairly dramatic cardiac arrest on the 11th of august shortly after watching arsenal for or Leicester 3 on TV in the first match of the season. I'm a Spurs fan, but I don't think it was connected. Anyway, I recovered well, started listening to Football Weekly during my time off work. Haven't missed an episode since, blimey. I also think I've attended pretty much every live show in London during this time.
20:12Nicky Bandini:I'm, of course, coming to the Troxie on Thursday and really looking forward to it. I'm emailing as hoping to be able to put Max at ease regarding filling the top tier, as he seems quite anxious about it. I was there a few days ago, the 5th of September, to see the brilliant synth pop band Hot Chip. was a great show, but it was clear looking up from the floor that the top tier was very sparsely populated and far from full. It didn't detract at all from the show and if a band with six top 20 albums aren't filling it, then a podcast with one top 20 book, question mark, shouldn't feel bad. Although admittedly by the second half of the Hot Chip show, the floor of the Troxy was a throbbing, pulsating mass of bodies writhing around ecstatically.
20:48Nicky Bandini:So your halftime show and Wilson's anecdotes will have to go some to match that, but I have every confidence in you all. Thank you all for giving us such consistently terrific show all the best David if we sell a top tier Barry will you ride will you pulsate
21:01Max Rushden:I'm always rising and pulsating I can only think of one hot chip hit and it's a very good one yeah I was going to say I reckon Bruin is a fan well I would say
21:15John Brewin:a fan but I have seen him live and he was really really good yeah you know
21:18Nicky Bandini:fortunately that gig has gone so you can't go to that you can't go to Football Weekly on thursday we'll all be there um as well as jonathan wilson johnny luke jordan's going to come down paul watson's going to come down as well uh and he's live streamed around the world so uh um and you can watch it a week on catch up theguardian.com slash football weekly live there's some good bits we've done some actual planning and we'll tell barry about that a half an hour before the show begins i am slightly concerned about the fact that i am not privy to any of these plans which suggests that it's not a stitch up you're not being i'm being stitched up yeah although i think if we said and barry's going to get massively stitched up i think we would fill the top tier so maybe we should say that uh theguardian.com slash football wiki live come along please right armenia to ireland one after that great comeback against hungary i mean i watched the uh i watched shea given and kevin doyle on rte after the game kevin doyle looked bereft shea given said it was probably one of the worst results in our history you know then listed the sort of five worst there's been a few yeah yeah uh kevin dole said we've had a macedonia here and and actually they both said look 2-1 defeat flattered ireland barry it did queeve and kelleher had a very busy night
22:33Max Rushden:in the ireland goal and had to keep the score down i noticed on blue sky the athletic described this as a shock defeat and i have to say i wasn't surprised i certainly wasn't a shock maybe a little bit of a surprise about how bad the ireland performance was but it wasn't surprised that we lost because it was exactly the kind of rake i expected ireland to step on sideshow bob style and get slapped in the face with the handle and they duly went and did it we lost 2-1 they had a goal disallowed and as I said Keeve and Kelleher was probably the busiest man on the pitch. Ireland were absolutely dreadful.
23:17Max Rushden:They started reasonably well created a few chances but as is now customary under Heimer Helgumsen they went behind and every match they go into they give themselves a mountain to climb so they were 2-0 down, pulled a goal back but it wasn't enough and Armenia were delighted to win should have won by more I don't think a huge number of Ireland fans are surprised there are murmurings not particularly loud because I was looking at the Irish media this morning saying maybe the time is up for Heimer Hallgrimson but I really don't know where Ireland go from here because he certainly he can't be sending his team out to defend that badly Nathan Collins had another mayor last night he's one of the most experienced players on the team he's ever present for Brentford but for whatever reason he's had two shockers in this window Matt Doherty another senior player he had a shocker on Saturday was it and he was dropped for this game the FAI who are largely to blame for this mess they don't have the money to employ anyone better than Heimer Helbigrimsen he asked for a psychologist they said no we can't afford one you know this is where we are and I look at the players that can't get in the England squad and I'm thinking crikey if we had even like two or three of them we'd be brilliant but Ireland football is very much in the doldrums and I I was disappointed with this result but I wasn't surprised by it if we beat Portugal home and away we'll be fine i mean but that's the thing the expanded world cup it made you think oh you
25:14Nicky Bandini:know teams like ireland that sort of size nation should have a much better chance but feels feels miles away john feels like and and i suppose the question that we've had with the other home nations is you know are the players do they have enough good players because sometimes you go look you just sometimes don't have a generation but as barry's alluded to There's some experience there. You know, Armenia are behind Kurdistan.
25:38John Brewin:Yeah, it was awful. Barry's described that. You know, we talked before about Thomas Turkle talking, you know, about bringing about English football. Jaime's talked about bringing Irish football, playing to Ireland's strengths. Now, we've laughed and joked about this. What are those? the corner, the throw, the knockdown from Quinny to Robbie Keane or whoever. Ireland's use of corners and free kicks was absolutely abominable. The long throw. Rory DeLapp, an Irishman, basically patented the long throw. Jake O 'Brien is not Rory DeLapp. Good Lord above. of like the throw is just not i mean the throw's got to be a trajectory that it is there to be headed out not this sort of looping it's got to be flat it's yeah it's got a flat trajectory that's right yeah barry's correct in the fact that the appointing heimer halgrimson it was a surprise funny enough i i was told he was going to be appointed uh by someone i well a source should i say told me this and i i forwarded this information to my irish friends and they were like what who and within you know the news came out half an hour later or whatever and it was like wow you know how you know what why and obviously he has pedigree with Iceland of course but he has turned up and just thought this is how we're going to have to do it the problem is the players that aren't doing the jobs that he's picked them as Barry says Nathan Collins he is one of the most inconsistent players, I think, in football.
27:21John Brewin:He can look absolutely calm, assured, really good at bringing out the ball. He scored a great goal against Ukraine a few years ago. He's a classy player and then he can have a performance like that. Although Darrow Shea was just as bad in the game. It was a disastrous performance and nobody came out of it with any credit for Ireland, apart from the goalkeeper, as Barry said. I'm sorry to pile on Ireland. It was awful. I would like Ireland to be at the World Cup. Remember them in the USA back in 94. They lit up the tournament despite some of the games being, I've mentioned this before, Ireland-Norway.
27:55John Brewin:If you really want to watch a bad game of football, that, Egil Olsen versus Jack Charlton, I mean... Oh, football's made for that. Listen, I am an advocate of getting launched, but big lord above. That is just football on a level of... But that would be amusing because they would turn up and try and play that football. That's what Jaime's trying to do, and it's not going to work, sadly.
28:22Max Rushden:I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm picking on Nathan Collins because, as John said, they were all garbage, apart from Keeve and Kelleher, but he is supposed to be the calming influence, the steady hand on the tiller. The captain. Yeah, it just wasn't happening for him at all.
28:40Nicky Bandini:Yeah, I think I said Arminia ranked above Kurdistan. I meant to say Kyrgyzstan, if I pronounce that correctly.
28:48John Brewin:I've made that mistake in print, so don't worry about that.
28:51Nicky Bandini:Kyrgyzstan is a roughly defined geocultural region in West Asia, who would probably also beat Ireland, even though they don't have a team. Belarus nil Scotland 2. It was an empty stadium in Hungary because of Belarus' support for Russia's invasion of Ukraine. It felt very COVID-y, didn't it? I mean, when you strip football back without the crowd, it does just sound like a Sunday league game. And so you just can't tell. I mean, it's got to look good, actually, in the highlights that I saw.
29:20Max Rushden:Yeah, they were decent, totally dominant. One comfortably, very comfortable 2-0. But, yeah, you can hear the players shouting at each other. You can hear the instructions coming from the touchline. There was one stage John McGinn was stomping up the wing and you could hear his footsteps off the turf. The kind of game Scotland have lost in the past, shall we say. So I wasn't massively confident that they would beat Belarus, but they did very, very comfortably. And because Denmark beat Greece, hammered them in Athens, which I think people weren't expecting, given their performance against Scotland earlier in this break, it leaves that group wide open.
30:03Max Rushden:So it's been a very good window for Scotland, four points, a joint top. and with Denmark, Greece a point behind. I think quite a few Scottish fans went to this, but they weren't allowed into the stadium. And I know the Italy-Israel game, which we'll get to, was also played behind closed doors. And there seemed, you know, there's a few hundred at that. The fans that turned up seemed to be allowed in. But what I don't understand is this game was played behind closed doors on a neutral venue through no fault Scotland. so why aren't they allowed to have a crowd in there? I don't get it. It seems unfair.
30:42John Brewin:They find goals hard to come by, don't they? A Scottish goal. And I was looking at the top Scottish goal scorers of all time are still Kenny Dalgleish and Dennis Law. No, Ali? No, but Coist is like the last good striker they had. It's just something's not happening there. I mean, Che Adams has got 10 goals for Scotland. He's a good player, actually, at championship level. He's not a bad player, Che Adams. Actually, he's playing in Italy now, of course. But he...
31:15Nicky Bandini:There's no Dennis Law, right? I mean, let me say... It's not Dennis Law. It's not Kenny Targlish. You're right.
31:20John Brewin:And they played fewer internationals. Actually, Kenny played over 100. But it's like, if Scotland had a goal scorer, we might have seen him at more championships, is what I'm saying. It's interesting that with, just with reference to Ireland, because Evan Ferguson did get the one goal for them. I know they weren't good, but he's had a really encouraging start so far at Roma. So perhaps one little bright light for Ireland in what was apparently, I didn't see that game, unfortunately, but apparently not.
31:46Max Rushden:Oh no, it wasn't unfortunate.
31:49Nicky Bandini:Don't show that to your American and Canadian. You dodged a bullet. Exactly. I need one more game to watch. Before we do Italy's win against Israel, Norway beat Moldova 11-1. Is that a table tennis score? Is that a squash score? We have asked Lars to do a one-minute voice note going through every goal, if he could.
32:07Max Rushden:So, what have we learned? Norway good, Moldova bad. First goal, tap in from Felix Holmürr from a Holland assist. Second goal, Moldova lose possession in their own box. Neat finish by Holland. Third goal, Erdegel through ball for a trademark Holland left-footed finish. Fourth goal, deeper through ball from Erdegel to Holland this time. Fifth goal, ball drops for Erdegel in the box. Sixth goal, cross for Holland to head in from the edge of the six-yard box. Seventh goal, blocked shot drops for Thelo Osgaard in the box. Consolation goal for Moldova, Leo Estegar puts a back pass into his own net for some reason.
32:40Max Rushden:Eighth goal, a saved Haaland header drops for Osgaard in the box. Ninth goal, Oscar Bob wins a penalty and Osgaard converts. Tenth goal, a powerful shot from Haaland after a cross. And the eleventh goal, Haaland heads a cross-a-cross goal for Thelo Osgaard to convert again. so Holland in the mood clearly Moldova very bad at all the things they even had a player who came on who was named Dross which seemed a little bit on the nose and Teilo Asgard with four goals all kind of poachers efforts but there we go Norway good Moldova bad
33:12Nicky Bandini:I did try and find some highlights but it's one of those where I could only get someone's mobile phone footage of it anyway Teilo Asgard came off the bench and scored four but he didn't score as many as Erling Haaland who scored five anyway 11-1 but there are of course no easy games in international football let's talk about Italy they needed a win against Israel and they got it in a mad game Nicky they were what they were 4-2 up with 4 minutes left then it was 4-4 and then Sandro Tonali wins it in injury time yeah so obviously this is the start well they played Estonia a few days ago and beat them 5-0 but this is the first window of the Gennaro Gattuso time in charge and pretty inevitable, I think, to reach for that famous Gattuso press conference.
34:01Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe cheap. But yes.
34:06Nicky Bandini:I say that a lot about things in life. It was absolutely that in microcosm because on the one hand, in these two games, Italy have scored 10 goals, which is quite something actually when you look at recent history and all the concern there's been about the attack. And it does feel like Gattuso has come in he's gone straight to this front two of Rettegi and Moise Keane which I really like and even in this game there was some great stuff I mean actually across these two games Rettegi had two back heel assists there was some real swagger Moise Keane playing with real swagger as well for the national team some really nice goals but my god were they awful at the back um they scored two own goals in this game and had another one punched into his own net by Donnarumma that was disallowed.
34:51A goal down, then 2-1 down against Israel, came back to lead 4-2 in the second half and blew that as well. And took it to go to 4-4 and then won it in injury time. It was a bonkers game of football, extremely entertaining game of football. But my goodness, not the sort of game that makes you think this team is about to catch up to Norway in the group, because of course, Norway already beat Italy 3-0, haven't dropped any of the games. So when Gattuso was appointed, one of the discussions was can Italy catch up to Norway on goal difference well after Norway thumped Moldova 11-1 I'd say that's probably out of the window but if nothing else I suppose Italy have made it look a bit more certain that they will at least be heading to a playoff for a World Cup spot unfortunately those haven't gone so well in the last eight years have they so last two cycles.
35:44Nicky Bandini:Yeah so look Norway have 15 points they've won all their games Italy have nine points from four Four games, Israel had nine points from five games, Estonia and Moldova, out of the running. Barry, you wanted to talk about Israel's participation in these qualifiers and if they qualify for the World Cup.
36:01Max Rushden:Well, I don't think they should be participating in these qualifiers. Russia is suspended from the competition because of their illegal invasion of Ukraine. and I think Israel should be suspended as well because under Benjamin Netanyahu and his IDF they're committing acts of genocide in Gaza and I'm aware other opinions are available they're not opinions I share but I fail to see how Russia can be suspended and Israel aren't and see also Belarus who Scotland beat and I don't think that's a controversial opinion, but it probably will be and I'll be accused of being all sorts of things. I'm really not.
36:52Max Rushden:But yeah, I don't think it's controversial to say that Israel shouldn't be in these qualifiers.
36:59John Brewin:I agree with Barry on the points he makes about Netanyahu and the IDF, absolutely. But the thing is, this decision is made by UEFA. If you look at it, Belarus played Scotland Belarus are an ally of Russia in the Ukraine war. They're not banned. UEFA would probably let Russia back in if they could. They're a pretty slack organisation, I think. There is a great debate, isn't there, over the fact that Israel are in the UEFA region to start with, because if they were in the Asian Confederation, you would imagine they'd have been kicked out many years ago. It's one of those complicated things of world football governance.
37:43John Brewin:I think a few people would be absolutely delighted that Italy won that game and that Israel are unlikely to be at the World Cup because that would cause all types of trouble.
37:54Nicky Bandini:This is what Alexander Sheffarin told Politico. He said, regards Israel, first of all, what's happening with civilians there is personally hurting, killing me. He said, from the other point of view, I'm not a supporter of banning the athletes because what can an athlete do to their government to stop the war? It's very, very hard. Now, the ban for Russian teams is, I think, three and a half years. Did the war in Ukraine stop? It didn't. Regarding FIFA, their General Secretary, Matthias Grafstrom, addressed the 75th Congress, said the work of the Governance Audits and Compliance Committee and the work of the Disciplinary Committee remains ongoing.
38:26Nicky Bandini:This is regards Palestine, F.A., calling for Israel to be banned. They are, quote, working diligently to conclude what is clearly a highly complex topic. critics of them accuse them of just kicking the can down the road because that's not the first time they've said we've had a meeting to have a meeting to have a meeting the Palestinian FA have said the number of footballers killed or died from starvation has reached 421 including 103 children according to the PFA 288 sports facilities have been damaged or reduced to rubble across Gaza and the West Bank from stadiums and training grounds to gyms and clubhouses the vast majority 268 were in Gaza, 20 were in the West Bank with about half serving football directly.
39:07Nicky Bandini:And latest reports are that more than 60 ,000 people have been killed in Gaza as a result of Israeli actions there. Anyway, as Barry said, other views are available. I'm sure we'll get some interesting feedback on that. But yeah, share your views, Barry. Anyway, that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll begin with, as we all predicted, Ange Postacoglu being the manager of Nottingham Forest on the 10th of September, 2025.
39:59Nicky Bandini:Listen at schwapp.com slash Washington Wise.
40:11Nicky Bandini:Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. Rigoburt says, can we get a voice note from Johnny Lu about how happy he is to have Ange back managing in the Premier League? Jamie says, why can't we Forrest fans have nice things? Elwood, how many goals will Forrest concede this season? Yes, Nottingham Forrest released their announcement at one in the morning, which is when you normally release these kind of pieces. It was quarter past 12. Oh, was it quarter past 12? My apologies. Nuno Espirito Santo sacked by Forrest. Ange Postacoglu hired Forrest's statement, thanked Nuno for his contribution during a very successful era at the city ground, said he would always hold a special place in their journey.
40:44Nicky Bandini:It's been very public about his relationship with Evangelos Maranakis that has deteriorated over the summer and disagreements with Edu, the new sporting director as well. He took over in December 2023, kept Forrest up. Last season took them to seventh, their highest finish since 94-95. Qualified for Europe for the first time in 30 years. Built a team, John, on defensive solidity. Quick on the break, but very hard to break down. Here comes Anish Pastakoglu. I mean, if you're not a Nottingham Forest fan, it's all very exciting. If you are, it's agony, right?
41:21John Brewin:It could be golden, yeah. first thing Milenkovic judging by last night in a high Ange line mate is going to be quite amusing Murillo alongside him as well we're going to have to this is the fun that Ange is going to bring back to the Premier League talking of Evangelos Maranakis not afraid of slaying sacred cows is he really? Steve Cooper idolised by Nottingham Forest fans goodbye Steve Steve Nuno, beloved, you know, this charming man. He completely won over the public.
41:56Nicky Bandini:He's sort of the best manager I've had since Clough, right? Is that, who else is there? Billy Davis did well? I don't know.
42:01John Brewin:I think people would say Steve Cooper again after so long. It was such a real achievement. And, you know, the love for him is still there. It's one of those inside football, inside baseball things, isn't it? A lot of it's to do with agents, you know. Edu is an acolyte of Keir Jarabcin. Nuno is, of course, the first ever client of George Mendes, which means he'll probably be okay for getting a job soon. The shift to Edu meant a shift in essentially the agencies that deal with Evangelos Maranakis. That's the heart of the quarrel between Nuno and Edu, and that's where, and such is the way these days, that the chairman, well, the president, actually, as I've noticed, Ange Postacoglu calls him, which he did call him over the summer.
42:52John Brewin:The president makes the decision to stick with the sporting director rather than the manager. So therefore we have Ange. I'm not quite in Johnny's camp with Ange, but he did get so baited, so angry, so miserable towards the end of his time at Tottenham. Has he had long enough off to be restored to the sunny Lou Carpenter guy we saw two or three years ago? or are we going to get this sort of slightly morose, miserable, defensive Ange? The last eight or nine months of that Spurs reign, I mean, he won a trophy or all that. It was pretty tough going. If you ever went to the press conference, it was pretty tense.
43:32John Brewin:And we knew this guy wanted to kick back and wittle some, but it just won't happen to him.
43:36Nicky Bandini:Yeah, I mean, I suppose you probably can't dismiss winning a trophy and all that for Tottenham. I think Tottenham fans know for sure. Tottenham did. Well, that's true. but Tottenham fans know that Forrest will come to White Hart Lane, I think it's quite late in the season, and absolutely play them off the park. Absolute angi-ball and hammer them. I don't know, what do you... I've just checked Billy Davis' Nottingham Forrest record. Oh, not good. Yes, I shouldn't have mentioned that. That was really plucking an aim out of the sky. Please delete from the record. My apologies. Nikki, what do you make of this whole situation?
44:10I mean, definitely fascinating to see which trophy that Forrest is going to win next season because as Ange told us with great delight in the spring, he always wins in his second season. So they're on for something, aren't they? The championship? Maybe, maybe. I mean, it just feels so absolutely extraordinary, doesn't it? When you look at what Nuno achieved, taking over a team that was 17th. I think they'd won, what was it? One in 13 games before he took over, kept them up that season and then takes them to, in the end, the Europa League. But for such a long time last season, being in the Champions League fight and that jump in such a short space of time.
44:48We think about the players that he brought on and made better in his time in charge. I mean, we were raving this podcast. Well, I've been raving about Elliot Anderson, this podcast. And I think about, that's part Nuno, isn't it? That's part of the job that he did and the work he did. And there was this extraordinary photo after the, in fact, after the Serbia-England game of Morgan Gibbs-White and Elliot Anderson and Nikola Milenkovic all outside the locker room in a little huddle and you think, well, pretty obvious what they're talking about. So it does feel pretty, I don't know, to me, it feels damning of the club that they've allowed the situation to unfold this way that you had a manager who'd done such a brilliant job to, I don't know if slip away from you is the right way, but be thrown away so quickly because of going out to get a sporting director without checking how that was going to, thinking about how that was all going to work together.
45:40Clearly, Maranakis is his own man who's not afraid to take his own decisions. I think that's probably about the most neutral way you could put it. There's certainly some strong feelings about him, aren't there? And I think this is not going to soften any of those. But I don't know. I think it feels like it's going to be an atmosphere that becomes very toxic very quickly if Ange isn't able to walk in there and start winning right away because of all the goodwill that the fans have. And I think clearly some of the players as well have for Nuno.
46:13Nicky Bandini:It's interesting. You know, you mentioned Milenkovic there, John. But like Chris Wood has been huge for Forrest. But he's, you know, Ange likes a centre-forward that can run 25 kilometres and chase down every single... And that's not Chris Wood's game at all, right? It's interesting. I mean, the midfield, I think, could kind of work, right? Gibbs White and Anderson and...
46:33John Brewin:Gibbs White can certainly press, can't he? Yeah, he's very good at it. Ange is a squad that is not custom designed to his needs. I suppose one thing is that Nuno managed to change that squad and fit it. It's a real test of Ange as a manager. Now, the difference between those two is Nuno is a pragmatic enough manager to make the amendments, make the adjustments that's needed and get the best from the players. Ange has one style of play and that's what he wants to do. It doesn't really make much sense apart from the sort of, I don't know, who knows who in football, really, doesn't it? I mean, you know, he's an Australian Greek manager going to work for a Greek billionaire.
47:17John Brewin:You know, that's interesting. Fair enough. I don't have any issue with that. But I think some of the Forest fans might do. The thing is, what you've got to do at Forest, Forest is a club where the fans are, if you go to the city ground, it's a great atmosphere. Forest fans are inherent to what Forest are about. They're not one of these clubs that can exist off its foreign following or anything like that. It's about the collective of the club. And those fans have got to be on your side because the city ground has got to be a fearsome place to go. So Andrew's got to do some severe PR work is what I'm saying.
47:59Nicky Bandini:And he's good at that. He is good at that. Yeah. And I think, I mean, he did change for the Europa League, right? You know, like Tottenham Man United, they absolutely parked the bus. That was Nuno football almost.
48:11John Brewin:It was. Maybe he just plays as Europa League style.
48:13Nicky Bandini:It's possible, yeah. And he's not an idiot. Like, he's been successful everywhere, Ang, right? Yeah. He's, you know, he's not an idiot. But it will be absolutely fascinating to see how it works out. Timmy says, prayers for Baz. This is your worrying news, Barry. as it's been reported in the last couple of days that Lukas Fabianski is back at the London stadium, set to start talks to resign as the third choice keeper. You thought you were safe, but you're not, I'm afraid. This is from Andy, says, Hi, Football Weekly, long-time listener, first-time writer and all that. Having been lucky enough to have a daughter via IVF three years ago, my wife and I have made the decision that one child is enough for us.
48:52Nicky Bandini:Why, why would you want more? Oh, Andy, that's a good question. anyway on Wednesday I shall be joining the select band of football weekly brethren undergoing a vasectomy while listening to Barry's smooth tones to help keep me calm my plan is to hold back on Monday's pod as I imagine you'll do one on Wednesday after the England game which will be too late to listen to during the procedure the downside of this means I won't be able to come to the live show this week as I'll be bed bound for a few days it doesn't mean I'll be primed to join the billions around the globe in watching the live stream with ice packed down my underwear and hoping I can get to a show in the not too distant future look forward to it and I was
49:24John Brewin:I was wondering, Max, is part of the fact that you've not told Barry, maybe I'm supposed to be surprised here, is that he's going to have a live vasectomy?
49:34Max Rushden:I'll tell you what, John, I don't need a vasectomy to avoid having children.
49:38John Brewin:That'll fill the top tier, won't it?
49:40Max Rushden:I find abstinence works for me, involuntary abstinence. All I'm hearing from Andy are excuses. We've got a whole top tier. we could you know he could come along pushing his swollen gonads in a wheelbarrow we can arrange a chair lift of some sort for him and he can have the whole top tier to himself he can sit in one chair with his swollen plums hanging over the arm in the next one
50:09Nicky Bandini:anyway on that note it seems like a nice time to end it doesn't it thanks everybody thank you John
50:14John Brewin:thank you Max thank you for having me
50:16Nicky Bandini:thanks Nicky thanks cheers Barry and he will of course
50:19Max Rushden:us have to buy two tickets if that's right.
50:22Nicky Bandini:One for each club. Three tickets. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stephens. We'll be back tomorrow.
50:36Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.