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In short
England’s World Cup semi-final defeat to Argentina, dissecting why they conceded after leading, and previewing the final (Spain vs Argentina). Guests/panel: Jonathan Wilson (football writer/analyst), John Bruin (football writer), Nicky Bandini (journalist), Barry Glendening (Guardian Football Weekly host/analyst).
Key claims
England’s “inquest” centers on Thomas Tuchel’s defensive substitutions and back-five/back-seven shift that “verified” a game plan of inviting pressure; England lacked an out-ball and couldn’t turn possession around, then panicked when Messi found space. Argentina’s first-half fouling/“shithousing” under Simeone’s instruction is contrasted with a second-half surge once England scored.
Notable examples
Messi’s “pockets” of space, Lautaro’s miss, McAllister hitting the post, Pickford’s saves, Fernandes’ worked free-kick routine, and England’s failure to double up on Messi. Final preview: Spain favored for control; Argentina “cockroaches” resilience.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMatch Overview and Initial Reactions
0:30 to 0:56
Discussion on the match events, key moments, and initial feelings.
“It fell to Messi and his cross was perfect.”
Panel Introduction
0:56 to 1:49
Introducing the panel members of the podcast.
“This is today's Guardian Football Weekly.”
Inquest into England's Tactics
1:49 to 3:19
Analyzing England's tactical decisions and performance during the match.
“I think we were just too happy, but I just felt half an hour of trying to do that.”
Messi's Influence and Argentina's Strategy
3:19 to 5:39
Examining Messi's impact on the game and Argentina's tactical approach.
“He'd found the spot because, I mean, again, Jonathan says back three.”
Post-Match Reactions and Critiques
5:39 to 8:01
Panel discusses reactions to the match outcome and critiques of England’s performance.
“you might be able to hear banging outside the studio I'm not sure that's just the Dan Byrne and Jed Spence statues being taken down go on then Barry forgive me for waiting this long how is the fearometer?”
Comparing Coaching Decisions
8:01 to 10:11
Discussion on the coaching decisions made by Tuchel and their impact on the game.
“They can't half play a bit, can they, when they stop shithousing around?”
Reflecting on Messi's Brilliance
10:11 to 13:10
Celebrating Messi's skills and the admiration for his performance.
“going to play Lionel Messi, that was always likely to happen.”
Looking Ahead: Implications for England
13:10 to 14:00
Discussing the future implications for England after the loss.
“You just think it's not just the fact he's seen everyone and understood what they are.”
Post-Match Reflections on England's Performance
14:00 to 15:19
Analysis of England's performance and potential managerial consequences.
“yeah that's the difference between sitting back and trying to defend a lead against Mexico or Norway and yes the best player I've ever seen play football As very disappointed England fans what now for Tommy Tuku?”
Tuchel's Comments and Tactical Assessment
16:46 to 21:24
Discussion of Thomas Tuchel's post-match remarks and tactical decisions.
“There's quite a lot of it, but it's probably worth reading out.”
Show all 17 chapters
Expectations and Criticism of England's Semi-Final
21:25 to 23:24
Exploration of England's performance expectations and public perception post-semi-final.
“If England had lost that game 2-1 in a game similar to the defeat of France four years ago.”
Personal Memories and Future Impacts of the World Cup
23:25 to 28:01
Reflections on personal experiences related to the World Cup and its significance.
“Everyone likes, you know, A, I would say, I've heard what's on the school history syllabus in England, so I'd say, broaden your horizons.”
Formative Memories of the World Cup
28:01 to 29:32
Listeners will reflect on the emotional impact of the World Cup on young fans.
“But she's never really cared that much about the men's team.”
Upcoming Live Shows Announcement
29:33 to 29:59
The hosts discuss their upcoming live shows and interactions with fans.
“So if you're coming along, we look forward to seeing you tomorrow.”
Analysis of Spain vs Argentina
30:20 to 33:56
In-depth discussion on the strengths and weaknesses of the Spain and Argentina teams.
“Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.”
Cockroaches and Pest Control Stories
33:57 to 36:05
Humorous anecdotes comparing football teams to cockroaches and discussing pest control experiences.
“Weirdly, I was in Argentina at the time.”
Listener Shoutout and Wedding Wishes
36:06 to 38:19
The hosts send heartfelt wishes to listeners Jenna and Andy on their wedding.
“A correction from yesterday's pod, we said that Gianni Infantino was booed in Dallas during the Spain-France semi-final.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00John Brewin:This is The Guardian.
0:30Nicky Bandini:He struck it beautifully. And then McAllister hit the post. It fell to Messi and his cross was perfect. Lautaro couldn't miss. The inquest will begin. Tuchel's changes were defensive. They invited pressure. Too much pressure. England stopped playing. We'd taken the lead. Rodgers' brilliant cross for Anthony Gordon. The first half had been tight and foully, mainly Giuliano Simeone. But England had the chance. We had it and we lost. We've been here before. We know how this goes. We can process defeat. We go again. The final then. Argentina v Spain. Don't care. This is today's Guardian Football Weekly.
1:04Nicky Bandini:On the panel today, Jonathan Wilson, welcome.
1:06Barry Glendenning:Thank you very much.
1:07Nicky Bandini:John Bruin. Well, I'm okay. John Bruin, hello. Hi. Over in the UK, Nicky Bandini, welcome. Hiya. And that's the panel. Oh, Barry Glendening, hello. Hello, Max. Colm says, tell Barry to enjoy the podcast. John says, just give the microphone to Baz. Connor says, go on, Baz, finish them. Sam says, someone feed Barry some infected lettuce. and Bobby says who should start wing back for Ireland's next game against Kosovo which seems like a good place to start doesn't we as we walked out of the bar there was this apocalyptic rainstorm which felt pretty apt John oh shit it
1:42John Brewin:yeah we as you say we go again desolation is the feeling and the inquest begins and it feels to me as though Thomas Tuchel in the immediate aftermath is going to take a lot of the blame I don't think he can have the full blame, but I said to you, didn't I, too early for Gordon, I think you ignored me at the time. I think we were just too happy, but I just felt half an hour of trying to do that. It's too negative. There was no out ball for England and Argentina. Well, Lionel Messi has played against teams playing in low block before. Yeah. he's quite 39 years old he's been down this road before and so he finds the little spaces the little half spaces and he does what he always does and England do what they always do too
2:41Barry Glendenning:yeah I mean the switch to the back three over time we were saying this makes no sense this isn't us being wise after the event this is what we were saying over time that when when Tuchel did that against Mexico okay at the time I was I was concerned by that but you could see afterwards okay actually Mexico didn't have anything other than chucking the ball in the box even against Norway they're not going to be able to find those little pockets that Messi finds and I think in those two games it was sort of justified by playing at altitude playing incredible humidity well conditions in Atlanta weren't particularly difficult I don't understand why England got themselves in a position where that seemed to tickle the only thing they could do why was a no out ball now if harry kane drops deep and i think it's a good thing he drops deep i think that's one of the key parts of his game it's what leads to england's goal if he's going to do that you have to work out another way of holding the ball to the pitch because there was just wave to wave of attack and that had begun before the switch to the back three and the switch to the back three just sort of verified that as that's the way this game is going to be and there were so many chances um and it wasn't just two goals there was yeah Pickford made two or three very good saves there was a few headers um and then Argentina could hurt anything then both by crosses into the box and by Messi sort of darting around them so yeah and you feel Nikki that even when it went 1-1 that there was just panic and you can't panic when Messi is around yeah Jonathan talked about Messi finding pockets of space actually I was just watching before we came on the BBC doing some of the postgame analysis when And he was sitting in vast acres of space for points in that last part of the game.
4:20And he wasn't even moving. He didn't have to move. He'd found the spot because, I mean, again, Jonathan says back three. It was a back five, wasn't it? It wasn't a back three in all reality. And the lack of midfield just meant that there was just this huge open plane for him to wait in. And he's such a, I mean, there's nothing new to say about how intelligent he is and about how well he reads the game, about how well he interprets that space and sees that that's where the opportunities are going to build for him. And I think it feels even hard to criticise the players when you look at the Fernandes goal, which is from a completely worked routine.
4:57It's a free kick they've done before. But you see, I mean, Jed Spence has to go to Messi and someone has to come and help him. And yeah, maybe if someone like Declan Rice is still on the pitch, he's going to get out to Fernandes quicker and see that threat sooner. but you kind of have to send two men at Messi, don't you? You can't ignore him and leave him there. So, yeah, it feels very simplistic to put it in this framing and it's going to be the framing that everyone puts it in but it really does feel self-inflicted by England. It feels like they took the plan that was least going to work for them in that situation.
5:32Maybe Argentina would have come back anyway. Argentina have got a lot about them as we saw but the plan was not good.
5:39Nicky Bandini:you might be able to hear banging outside the studio I'm not sure that's just the Dan Byrne and Jed Spence statues being taken down go on then Barry forgive me for waiting this long how is the fearometer?
5:51Max Rushden:Oh I've switched it off Max since that game ended I've kissed two different Argentinians who I'd never met before and look this time yesterday Max you were talking about the criticism we received for being too negative about England and I feel that you're all being quite negative now have you not learned the lessons of history the one thing I'd say is the number of text messages and whatsapp messages and what not I've received from various Irish Welsh and Scottish friends since the game ended would suggest that Philippe seriously misjudged the international mood when he boldly claimed yesterday that the entire world was behind England for this one game.
6:40Max Rushden:Tuchel went full Southgate, didn't he? Never go full Southgate. That's what Southgate did.
6:47Barry Glendenning:I slightly disagree with that. I don't think Southgate ever intended to drop that deep. I think it just happened and he was unable to react, whereas Tuchel opted to do that. It's much worse than Southgate.
6:57Nicky Bandini:Do you think then, Tuchel, because obviously we could all see it, right? We could see we've gone and it isn't like the Mexico game like you said, McAllister hit the post, Pickford made a brilliant save even I think before the changes it was kind of coming, so you kind of understand the changes right, something's coming but it really didn't work and should he have realised that and done something dramatically different in the 80th minute or whatever when you can feel this is coming?
7:22Barry Glendenning:Yeah probably I mean he had to change something but what he did was to double down on the problem and it was if i mean maybe tuckel's logic was the heads have gone we don't have anybody hold the ball up we don't have any pace to to to carry the ball forward all we can do is is sit here and hope to survive but yeah there have been so many chances that's five minutes before that that never seemed plausible i mean i'd also say about argentina and this is a ongoing trope for argentina history what were they doing in the first half why were they messing about making at a nasty game. Just play and they'd have won quite easily.
8:00Barry Glendenning:They're better than England.
8:02Max Rushden:I was just about to say that. They can't half play a bit, can they, when they stop shithousing around? Yeah. And as soon as England scored, then they said, well, let's try and actually play football. And from then on, it was just one-way traffic. But I suppose the question is, if England had tried to play football as well, are Argentina... Well, I think England were trying to play football. They'd just get kicked all over the pitch. I think you could argue that, for instance, you look at the game Bellingham had we've got a very neutral game that was clearly one of their targets was to get under his skin that they believe he could be an emotional player and he didn't do anything stupid but did he have the game that England needed him to have?
8:38No. So well I totally get where Jonathan's coming from because you watch how they play at the end and think why didn't you just do this from the start you'd have won easily.
8:46Barry Glendenning:Say that in 66 as well. If they hadn't done all the daft stuff to get Ratty and Sen off they might have won that game. I mean Bellingham did do something stupid after the final whistle didn't he? Yeah a substitute
8:55Nicky Bandini:in the back of the head. Harry Kane said afterwards, we played a good game, the large majority of it. When we went 1-0 up, we seemed to try and hold on, which at this level is not enough. So just gutted because we worked so hard to be there and the lads have given every last bit of running, blood, sweat and tears. So to fall short is just gutting. So, I mean, if he's noticed, like the players have noticed this, I mean, we talk about, you know, in-game management, John. Everyone can see it. The players can see it. Look, it's easy from here, right? It's easy from the barber in. It's easy from this studio.
9:24John Brewin:well we were talking the other night when we Philippe was talking about the Morocco players not responding to their managers instructions and I mean Jonathan talks about a back three it was
9:32Barry Glendenning:more like a back seven at a certain point and yeah I mean I the Morocco issue I think is more complex than that anyway it's probably not the time to get into it of course not but I disagree to what Philippe said about Morocco okay fine fine but what but I'm happy to do 25 minutes
9:48John Brewin:on that if you want. The problem is, if you attempt those tactics and you don't get away with it, then you look very bad. And Thomas Tuchel is going to have to wear that, unfortunately, for him. Because we have watched that game before where England sit back and then that moment comes and they do it against... They'd never played Lionel Messi before, but whenever they were going to play Lionel Messi, that was always likely to happen. And as Nicky said, the word points where he's just stood there in open acres of Georgian countryside. And it's just, you cannot do that. And the Enzo goal, he's had a sighter.
10:28John Brewin:He's had a sighter that Jordan Pickford's tipped over and then they allow the same thing to go. There was, I thought this about England joining this World Cup, that there have been moments when there's been a loss of faculties, a loss of calm. Does that come from Tuchel? Because he certainly is not keeping his calm on the sidelines. And Argentina in the first half, they clearly were trying to get under the skin, as Nicky said. Simeone, that was his entire job. I mean, he wasn't there to play football.
10:58Nicky Bandini:The moment he went into a game with his head was great.
11:00John Brewin:No, he's just, I mean, you know, commit as many fouls as he can. Nicky's dad would be proud of that performance? I'm sure.
11:05Nicky Bandini:The Apple has been proud of that performance, has he? Paul Holmes has been messaging me going, a shit off the old block. I thought it was a good one.
11:12John Brewin:Dad could not be prouder to be of that. I mean, it was just, I know, with Sir David sat there just thinking, we've seen this movie before. And the Argentina plan worked perfectly. We must credit them. There was talk before the game that, well, you see, Thomas Tuchel is a superior coach to the Lionel Scaloni. Well, that didn't come to pass, did it?
11:35Nicky Bandini:Yeah, Hoops did say any chance you can ask Philippe next time he's on if he still believes Scaloni is a vastly superior tactically to Tuchel. I mean, the thing is, Nicky, I mean, it is still for Messi to be this good, you know, because I think even at the start of the tournament, we thought, well, he's playing well in little bits, but the oppo aren't that great. Maybe the oppo weren't that great today, but still it was incredible. Yeah, of course it is. He's magic. And I think that's almost been lost at times in the, listen, as easy as it is to have a go at Philippe saying that everyone was cheering for Argentina when they clearly weren't.
12:11It is this odd paradox that Argentina did make themselves very unlikable to a lot of people. Or maybe they didn't make themselves unlikable to a lot of people. But a lot of people following this, fans from a neutral perspective, saw what happened in the Egypt game and rightly or wrongly felt there was a huge injustice that occurred that day. And I think that there have been a lot of people feeling like Argentina are somehow FIFA's team. I even thought, you know, it was interesting on this idea of who's pulling for Argentina and England. You always expect Naples to be pulling for Argentina because of that Maradona connection.
12:47They've always done it. I read a thing just today in a Neapolitan football website, really well read one, that was saying Diego Maradona would have supported England rather than Miss FIFA supported Argentina, which I think is wrong, by the way, but still. I thought it was interesting that someone was even trying to make that argument. um but uh but but then you you watch Leo Messi and you just think how can you not enjoy watching him obviously you don't want to see him scoring against England and or setting up the goals against England and and knocking them out when you're English but when you're anyone else watching this guy play football at 30 um 30 or 39 whichever he is and in that first half even before we're getting to the end of the game when he's putting the strings and and making this turnaround happen And that moment when he bounces off a tackle from Spence, shrugs off Harry Kane, sends Anthony Gordon the wrong way and then finally gets clattered by Elliot Anderson.
13:40You just think it's not just the fact he's seen everyone and understood what they are. It's not just the fact his feet move that quickly. It's how he uses that body that doesn't look big enough to shrug off someone like Harry Kane and positions it to get himself between the ball and the opponent. He's so good to watch. and in the end yeah that's the difference between sitting back and trying to defend a lead against Mexico or Norway and yes the best player I've ever seen play football
14:10Max Rushden:As very disappointed England fans what now for Tommy Tuku? Is that a sackable offence that last 20 minutes or do we go again because he got so close? I'm just so conditioned to this. I just, I wonder if any... I mean, I suspect he won't care. Well, I mean, he'll care that they lost the game. But when the dust settles, he's going to get slaughtered tomorrow, like slaughtered in the media. But I think ultimately he won't be that bothered.
14:42Barry Glendenning:Yeah. Well, a lot depends, I think, on how serious that rift between him and Bellingham is, whether that actually is a rift. I think to say that in that moment suggests that it's something he's thought of. and if he's thinking this guy doesn't actually know what it's like I'm not sure that's a healthy situation to be in for England's biggest player and their manager to have a difference of opinion apparently that profound I don't think is a worry
15:08Nicky Bandini:I guess it depends John if the England players bought into those tactics you might after the Mexico game I guess well I suspect we're going to hear I tell you what why don't we end part one and then do Tugel's comments in part two. Hi Pod fans, Max here. Barry's here too. Hello. The Weekly is supported by Gradient FC. Now Barry, with the World Cup underway, we know player performance will be under a microscope. From superstars cementing legacies to upstarts vying for big summer transfers. But with 48 teams and up to six matches a day, it's hard to catch every moment and that is where the Gradient FC app shines.
15:44Nicky Bandini:Their player rankings update daily during the World Cup so you know whose performances are trending up or down on the world stage. How does it work? Well, Gradient's rankings use the same grades trusted by clubs across Europe's top leagues for player recruitment. Each match is graded by a team of experts who evaluate over 2 ,000 actions per match, not just by outcome, but by execution. So, for example, a completed pass that leads the receiver into danger is graded negatively, while one that puts the receiver in on goal is graded positively. Now, I know you hate making match predictions, Barry, but maybe all that could change at the World Cup with Gradient FC, with head-to-head player comparison tools that show who's best across more than 100 grades in metrics.
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16:45Nicky Bandini:Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So this is too cool. There's quite a lot of it, but it's probably worth reading out. It says, we're disappointed we were so close. But we got too passive after we scored and conceded a lot of chances. We could not turn the ball possession around and then conceded so many crosses, chances and shots. We were close but couldn't keep the level up after we scored. On his substitutions, he said, I did also offensive substitutions in the last games. We just tried to help the players. We conceded a chance straight away and we decided to go to a back five because the gaps were far too open.
17:12Nicky Bandini:Of course, the responsibility is the coach. And if it doesn't go well, it's easy to say it was wrong. On the thoughts of going for a second goal, he said, yeah, but it doesn't help if you can't get the ball. We couldn't get out. Of course, we wanted to go for the second goal, but I did not have the feeling that offensive substitutions would help. We stayed in our 4-4-2, but we came passive, more and more passive. It's no problem. I can understand these discussions are out there on his future and how well he did. There are millions of coaches after the game who know it better.
Read the full transcript
17:36John Brewin:With Tuchel, he's always fairly honest. He read the game pretty much as I would see it. I don't agree that he couldn't make offensive substitutions. I think when we talk about the reaction, Barry's correct to say that he's going to get hammered. He's not going to get hammered in the old root vegetable on the back of a tabloid newspaper thing. Because I do think that the football press is actually quite responsible at these things. There will be people that are prepared to argue his case. It's more of the wider media and the wider public. Because my WhatsApps or whatever were, the manager made the right mess of that.
18:15John Brewin:And that's the one, you know, not just football people are going to be saying, why did they play like that? I think as a football person, you could say he deserves a lot of criticism. Yes, but Thomas Tuchel knows it's coming his way. He's been manager of Bayern Munich. He's been manager of Chelsea. This is what happens. Maybe being a manager of England is a different level of the criticism that he's going to get. The problem is, and England always do this, we gave him a new contract before the tournament. And this happens almost every time. I mean, England aren't alone in doing that.
18:47Max Rushden:Scotland did it. Scotland did it. Ireland have done it. It's always a hostage to fortune now, isn't it, Baz? I'm kind of wondering why do football federations do this? And I could be completely wrong, but the manager they have, whether it's Heimer Halgrimson or Steve Clarke or Thomas Tuchel, they're people go and say, you know, unless you offer us a new contract, he's going to go.
19:12John Brewin:I think the word is that the Football Association thought that, hey, if Manchester United or something like that comes up, then Tuka would be open to that. So they decided to close off that avenue. They might want to open up that avenue now, but we're going to have to see.
19:26Nicky Bandini:Yeah, I mean, Nicky, because so much was said. Look, you know, it's a great night to be Gareth Southgate, I guess. He's probably too nice to be dancing around his living room or releasing the handbrake on his, you know, his modestly priced sedan car going, there we are. A calming release of the handbrake.
19:43John Brewin:Let's get dear England back on the iPlayer.
19:45Nicky Bandini:But the point is, Nicky, it was all about this guy is a winner. You've seen people before England have got to a final or won anything saying, look, we've got a winner now. And I was like, this is too premature. And that is what has transpired. It's a really, when you take a step back, it's a really odd situation, isn't it? Because reaching the semi-final of a World Cup has really constituted drastic failure. I mean, reaching the semi-final of a World Cup is, by definition, it's a rare thing to do. It's certainly a rare thing for England to do. So the fact that it's being received in this way as such a failure, I think, is on a level remarkable.
20:26And on a level it isn't, because you look at the talent in this England team, and it is an incredibly strong England group. we have got absolutely world-class players in that team, got players who are not just world-class, but in incredible form, like Harry Kane has had the season of his life. You've got players like Jude Bellingham who had a fantastic tournament. So the expectation has jumped up so much. And I think that in a weird way, that's also partly Gareth Southgate's work, right? Gareth Southgate made England a team that get to finals. Gareth Southgate made England a team that no longer have this inferiority complex about itself and started to think, no, we really can compete for these things even though they haven't actually won them.
21:07So, yeah, I don't know. I think that's an incomplete thought because with a night of, I haven't taken that thought all the way to its conclusion yet. But I do think it's interesting that a semi-final is being treated as a profound failure. And also that I don't necessarily disagree with that because it did feel like this was Tuchel's fault.
21:24Barry Glendenning:It's the manner of his defeat, right? If England had lost that game 2-1 in a game similar to the defeat of France four years ago. England played a good team.
21:32Nicky Bandini:Or outplayed like France were yesterday. They didn't play well. Maybe get crucified. But Spain were brilliant. Argentina weren't brilliant in this game. They were good.
21:39Barry Glendenning:It was to have a position where you're in the lead with half an hour to go and then suddenly you invite pressure which leads to an inevitable conclusion.
21:49Max Rushden:Should the bed, I think, is the technical term.
21:51Barry Glendenning:I take Tuchel's point about going to a back three to try and close those spaces. Maybe that is the way you stop Messi. But how... I'd love to know how he thought the ball was going to stay up the other end of the pitch for more than half a second. Because with Kane playing so deep, you need somebody up there to hold it or at least somebody quick to chase it. But if you're taking Gordon off, you can't expect Jed Spence to do it from wing-back. Or maybe he was meant to do it from wing-back. Can you mark Messi and also try and get up and enjoy the R &D?
22:21John Brewin:Nick is correct in that this England team that got to a semi-final is not going to have the cultishness of 1990. or Euro 96 or even 2018 because the expectation came and actually if we think of the reaction to England losing the Euro 2024 final people talk about that tournament as though it was a disaster but we got to the final
22:41Barry Glendenning:there was rubbish in it John they were lucky to get to the final
22:44John Brewin:rubbish but successful in their own terms we were better in this tournament than that tournament yeah we were better in the World Cup in 2022 when England only got to the final but still not the point isn't Barry's been driving this one home still not that good. Doing just enough I believe is the phrase that pays on this. And Argentina
23:05Nicky Bandini:did just enough today. They did. The thing is every tournament you're going to have this day. This is the thing we know. Whatever happens as we build up to it. You know, you and the people that don't support England will have this day. I mean, maybe one day.
23:18Max Rushden:Can I just make something completely clear to all the people who message me and other Scottish people and Welsh people who go, why the hate? Everyone likes, you know, A, I would say, I've heard what's on the school history syllabus in England, so I'd say, broaden your horizons. Everyone likes to see the school bully get beaten up in the playground. That's why the hate. There's no hate.
23:43Nicky Bandini:No, no, of course. I would be mad for Scottish and Ireland and Welsh fans to want England to win. I'd just be completely mad. Brendan says, Barry, where does this rank on the England loss list for you? Thank you, he says.
23:56Max Rushden:Third, after Republic of Ireland won England nil in Euro 1988. Yeah, Ray Houghton. Second is European Championships final against Italy, where Ellis James and I watched it in your company. I don't know. Wilson wasn't there, but you boys were. I was at the game. Jamie said, have Italy won. So third.
24:20Nicky Bandini:Okay, have Italy won, as we all sat there morose. the I'm fucking fine game, I believe it's called. I mean, there were moments, John. There was the goal, right? It was a brilliant goal. It was a brilliant goal. There was the Jed Spence tackle.
24:32Max Rushden:There was a Jed Spence lollipop. One of you told me, sorry. Yeah, that's okay. Did Jed Spence have a good game or a bad game? Because I don't really know. He had a Jed Spence game.
24:42John Brewin:It's both, isn't it? That's just what Jed does. That's what he was there for.
24:46Max Rushden:I mean, he had this brilliant goal-saving tackle. He made some great runs early. Double nutmeg in the first five minutes.
24:52Nicky Bandini:I think as Wilson said that should stop the game that should be an instant win and then
24:56Max Rushden:was that fault for
24:58Nicky Bandini:I don't know
24:59Max Rushden:certainly the first goal he should have made more of an effort to close down Fernandes I thought Anderson
25:04Nicky Bandini:I thought Anderson was the player that went and shouldn't have gone well he's another player and going
25:10Max Rushden:good game bad game not quite sure I think he's had a good
25:12Nicky Bandini:tournament Anderson I think he's played really well
25:15Barry Glendenning:and to be fair to Spence on the second goal I think he got I think his foot was trodden on and he sort of hobbles over to Messi I think he's sort of reeling in pain yeah I thought pain is a privilege John
25:27Nicky Bandini:right Stephen Bartlett
25:31John Brewin:different attitude to certain refuelling I suppose the thing about Jed Spence is that he leaves the tournament as the English cult hero doesn't he him and Dan Byrne I guess those moments yeah and that's there are those moments that we can take out of that it wasn't a complete disaster the Mexico win was glorious was a glorious night for everybody involved and it was just you get to Argentina and the nerves we felt before that game because you just felt we should beat these but maybe we were deluding ourselves and then you realise and then you get hope that's the thing isn't it and then you realise they can play a bit these lads can't they but after they've stopped winding up England and then as soon as they have to you know let's Nicky did it at length but Messi just incredible you know and this may be his last ever game for Argentina will be in a World Cup final and that's just an unbelievable writing his own scripts just the greatest player that we've seen certainly I mean the idea
26:34Barry Glendenning:that for what his career is what say 22 years long yeah so for the first 18 years of those 22 years he's been criticised because well you haven't won the World Cup like Diego did and the fact that in the future people go the thing with Diego is he only actually won one world cup but he's playing his three
26:54John Brewin:finals and just he is a uh and his level of his level of disappointment is something that England would really like to have isn't it that's the thing he I don't I don't know if you've noticed
27:07Barry Glendenning:that he's the thing he's redeveloped in his game that I think he's really improved over the last four years is his sarcastic nod when somebody's arguing with him and his sarcastic nod of Bellingham as he was walking out and he was like, this doesn't feel like it's going to go well now. Yeah. And also, he's just sort of got
27:24Nicky Bandini:his henchman just around him. You know, he doesn't have to worry about that. There was a moment in the game where Mick Jagger just shook his head and you were like, oh, it's done. It's all over now. There you go. Exactly. You can't always get what you want, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Nikki, have you had any other thoughts on this game? You were asking me about World Cup fever in England and I was saying I didn't feel like it had arrived in quite the same way. And then the Norway game, I watched, it was the first game I got to watch with my niece. And my niece is football mad, right? But she's mostly been football mad for women's football up till now.
27:59She's got Kim Little, Chloe Kelly, all those posts up on her wall. She's really into it. But she's never really cared that much about the men's team. But this World Cup, she's been interested in the men's team because it's the World Cup and because it's on. And I don't know if it's an entirely just my experience, but actually like I got to have that quarterfinal watching with her. And watching it with a kid who's really into football is just different. It's just so much more fun, honestly, than watching with just the grown-ups, I think. And you get to remember what football feels like when you haven't suffered through all of the rubbish bits before.
28:32And yeah, I don't know, because I'm not young, but I think this World Cup will have left some quite formative memories for a lot of people. England going to a semi-final and scoring some great goals and winning some great matches. So I think there's some good stuff there too.
28:46Nicky Bandini:I think that's really... we did a little live thing for the TikTok channel, John, before talking about 86 and 90 and you being in your living room with your brother. Yeah. And there will be so many, you know, 10 year old, eight year olds now who are too young to really remember the last world cup. And this will be their first, this is the first stamp of pain for those people. You know, a lot of their parents will probably listen to this and think, yeah, I was there. And my, and you can turn to your kid and say, this is how it is.
29:16John Brewin:and this is the thing that can't be sold off the World Cup despite everything else being sold off is that there is a soul to the World Cup it's indelible on football fans and despite all the doubts that we had this World Cup has provided many moments like that hasn't it
29:33Nicky Bandini:we have live shows 1st of September Vicar Street in Dublin 9th of September Soho Theatre in Walthamstow should we do the same running order or slightly tailor it we have one tomorrow night we do New York yeah and all you lot are going to be there as well as the Bowery Ballroom. So if you're coming along, we look forward to seeing you tomorrow. If you want tickets for, there's a live stream of that if you want to get it. The London show is live streamed as well. Guardian.co.uk slash footballweeklylive and we'll be back in a second to talk about the final.
30:04Max Rushden:On the under$3 menu at McDonald's, a McChicken is$2 because when you're craving a McChicken, you deserve a McChicken. And now that McChicken is just$2 Dallas with McValue. Limit time only. Prices and participation may vary.
30:18John Brewin:Prices may be higher for delivery.
30:28Nicky Bandini:Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Spain, Argentina. Jonathan, you were in Dallas for the Spain game. It's like Spain was so good yesterday. And Argentina do just enough. They find a way. Like you would have to say Spain are the favorites.
30:42Barry Glendenning:yes um yeah i mean argentina sort of bundle through each game and they're they're riding this sort of emotional wave that you fear could crash it at any moment um or hope could crash at any moment depending which way you're looking at it today um but spain i mean spain's performance against france was i think by a significant margin the best performance by any team at this world cup uh they're a little bit lacking in cutting edge um but i don't really see how that i just in midfield's gonna gonna be able to dominate the ball but maybe maybe they don't need to but i yeah i i was baffled by what france did yesterday um i mean i always assumed at some point dachon would move from 43-1 to the 433 type right would have at some point in the tournament then it's like he got carried away or like the front four was so good he felt he couldn't
31:37Nicky Bandini:once the handbrake's off
31:38Barry Glendenning:yeah well it's hard to get back on yeah you can't get the handbrake back in the cheap famously and they were so outplayed in the first half and I guess maybe because Rabiot had been booked and could easily have been sent off before half time it was just get him out of there rather than trying to go to a three I think probably playing Schermen rather than Kone was a mistake. I'm not sure he was fully fit and Kone had played quite well the previous two games. If you are going to go with the two, maybe you got the wrong two. But it was all a bit limp in the end. It was actually a weirdly flat game.
32:12Nicky Bandini:Yeah. You imagine if Spain take the lead, they're not going to do what England did. I mean, they can keep the ball, right? They can have the ball and keep it. That really helps.
32:18Max Rushden:Yeah, it really does. How do you think France will line up in the third and fourth place play-off, Jonathan? Well, I think this is a great opportunity
32:25Barry Glendenning:for Kylian Mbappe to do what Gilles Fontaine did in 1958 when he scored four goals in the third place play-off. so if Mbappe really wants this is Mbappe's his way of really putting the pressure on Messi by scoring four saying Messi if you want to be the leading scorer in the World Cup at the end of this tournament you've got to do something pretty special tomorrow probably a big chance
32:41Nicky Bandini:for Kobi Maynou isn't it to you know put his time down you'll get a go you'll get a go just what two minutes at the end Tony and Watkins up front yeah why not who cares about that how do you see the final Nicky yeah I think it should be a good final I think I think it may be not helter-skelter football which I think is sometimes what people think they want but I think they're two teams that can control the game I think there's probably going to be quite a lot of shithousery but that can be fun too in a big stage game when there's high stakes on it so I'm looking forward to it and I think Spain will probably win but who knows
33:18Max Rushden:I mean Spain are the better team and they should win but this Argentina they're like cockroaches you can't kill them can you? No Terminator cockroaches and I mean that in the nicest possible way is it an insult to a cockroach I don't want to insult my new Argentinian friends from the bar in which we watch the game just trying to stamp on Simeone and he runs under the fridge again and you're like scuttles away I'm not going to write off Argentina's chances the thing is I don't care I could just enjoy it
33:53Nicky Bandini:we can enjoy a game together for the first time this World Cup John?
33:59John Brewin:Yeah, the needle is what interests me because Argentina have a formula, it's fair to say and you've got to try and disrupt that Spanish roulette the way they move the ball around and just try and stop them I agree with Jonathan that Spain have had that lack of cutting edge which may cost them because there's always going to be a sting in the tail when you play Argentina because they can go through the gears because they have that belief and they have that very special player.
34:31Nicky Bandini:Cockroaches with a sting. God, the worst kind.
34:34Barry Glendenning:I had a cockroach issue last year. Oh, right. We got in... I was actually... Weirdly, I was in Argentina at the time. Of course. Did it make the squad? Got in a bloke called Dave from Doncaster. Right. And he probably had a middle-aged... Sorry, to be clear,
34:51Max Rushden:the cockroach issue was in London. Yeah. But you were in Argentina. Yeah, right.
34:55Nicky Bandini:and he uh i i from doncaster was in london yeah i subsequently uh i did subsequently i think he
35:02Barry Glendenning:lives in hatfield okay um but he had so long gray hair uh-huh um and his trousers about four inches too long and i've never seen a man so in love with his job he came in just started this monologue and he was sounds like saxondale if you're yeah very saxondale yeah yeah um but he was uh no the thing is I use this powder it's ground up prehistoric seashells some of the lads say Dave you're mad what are you doing and I say 93 % kill rate they're chemical ones 30 % who's mad there it's not me I used to be pest control for Ronnie Scott a jazz club oh great gig
35:40John Brewin:who knew pest control could name drop these are the conversations that Luis de la Fuente is having at this moment I think you're right
35:49Barry Glendenning:you used to go in half seven on Sunday night. It only took an hour. I'd sit there till the morning and let me out. Other lads wouldn't do it so he was haunted. I said, sometimes you can haunt yourself, can't you? But then one night I was sitting there, I was fiddling on my phone, you know, I finished job, cupboards start bagging open and shut. I thought, fuck me David, he's haunted. Anyway, that's what he was like.
36:07Nicky Bandini:A correction from yesterday's pod, we said that Gianni Infantino was booed in Dallas during the Spain-France semi-final. I thought I heard the comms say something that that wasn't what came up on the big screen. He definitely was booed, though.
36:18John Brewin:There was booing at the same time. At the same time.
36:22Nicky Bandini:So we saw Infantino on the screen. The crowd booed. But at that time, the crowd had been showed Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones on the Jumbotron at the exact time we saw Infantino on the coverage. So Janny is on the TV screens, but his picture is not put up on the coverage.
36:37Barry Glendenning:And I can confirm that when Jerry Jones came on the big screen, he was booed. Got it. And Janny did not appear on the big screen.
36:43John Brewin:We apologise to Janny Infantino. I only saw him once today. No boos. No. So the TV director got it right this time, whoever that was yesterday. The new TV director. The new TV director. Stinging email. He had a good first day at work. He did.
37:00Nicky Bandini:Mel says, Hi, Max Barry and the Guardian Football Weekly team. I was hoping you might be able to give a shout out to Jenna and Andy, who are due to be married this weekend. Both are massive Football Weekly listeners and Arsenal fans. Jenna's journey has been complicated over the past couple of years. She's battled cancer on a couple of occasions, has been able to beat it with remarkable courage and positivity. alongside Jenna's love for Barry Glendening. She's also a massive Barry's Boot Camp enthusiast. Two things that are very different, I would suggest. Could we make it happen? As in, could we take Barry to Barry's Boot Camp?
37:30Nicky Bandini:It's a fitness club, Barry, if you're interested.
37:33Max Rushden:I mean, you're criticizing my lack of fitness, Max. When you run 13 miles, get back to me and talk about fitness.
37:40Nicky Bandini:The pod has unknowingly been part of helping keep spirits high over the years. If Barry could just wish Jenna and Andy all the best for their wedding, it would absolutely make their day. Spoiler alert, I bought them tickets to your live show in September as a wedding gift. Should I give them a gift receipt just in case? Thanks for the last football chat and companionship over the years. All the best, Mel. So it is Jenna and Andy.
38:02Max Rushden:Well, I wish them all the best, of course. And I'm sorry to hear Jenna has been through a tough time. I'm not sure she can love me and love Arsenal. I don't think that's going to work. but no I hope they have a great wedding and I hope the rest of their guests get them better presents yeah
38:22Nicky Bandini:but look it'd be nice to see you better
38:23Max Rushden:more expensive presents
38:25Nicky Bandini:Boeg says can Baz sing Wonderball is that how you want to end this pod no I can't sing anything
38:30Max Rushden:apart from Pogue's songs oh yeah and the Waterboys oh and the Waterboys
38:34Nicky Bandini:there is a video there is a video somewhere there is a video somewhere I have seen it okay I haven't no it's good we are recording some post World Cup mailbags tomorrow because we need some time off after the World Cup so if you have any questions football related serious or sensible or silly I'll be honest do I have
38:56Max Rushden:to be football questions about
38:58Nicky Bandini:anything ideally no football questions whatsoever football weekly at the guardian dot com any questions you like because we've got those pods tomorrow and if you want more Guardian World Cup content, I've agreed to go on our sister podcast, Stateside. Oh, that's annoying isn't it now? I agreed before the result, but you know, I'll put a brave face on it. That's how I'm Friday. Right now? Say again? Right now. No, not right now. No, no, tomorrow. I can at least have a night's sleep. So are you lads drowning in your
39:31Max Rushden:sorrows or early nights?
39:33Nicky Bandini:I'm meeting a good friend for dinner, thank goodness. But I'll have a pint if you want a pint. There's also the Long Wave the Guardian's global black diaspora newsletter today's edition is by Nezri Malik is on the experience of black football fans across the diaspora watching this World Cup it's a great piece subscribe by searching for the Guardian Long Wave newsletter but that will do for today thank you everybody thank you Barry thank you Max and congratulations thank you Wilson
39:58Barry Glendenning:I realise he was called Daniel from Doncaster not Dave do you want to do a re-edit do you want to
40:02Nicky Bandini:tell the story again don't do that thank you John thank you cheers Nicky thanks Max Football Weekly is produced by Rory Simon and Matt Bentley-Viney. Our executive producer is Joel Grove. We'll be back after the final. Hopefully you will too.
40:18Nicky Bandini:This is The Guardian.