Infantino hangs on by a thread and the overhaul at Newcastle: Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30groundswell to actually get rid of him elsewhere as we play catch-up. We'll talk Eddie Howe leaving Newcastle, pay tribute to Kevin Keegan. There's too much transfer news, the start of the Carabao Cup and a weekend. Don't like change. Rangers dropping points in the Scottish Premiership. Two games in already. We'll take your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

0:51On the panel today, Robin Cowan, welcome. Hi Max. Hello Sam Dalling. Hello Max Rushton. Dan Bardell, welcome. Hi, Max. And joining us for part one to discuss Gianni is global sports business correspondent Matt Hughes. Grand title, Matt. Welcome. How are you? I'm good, thanks. Right, so in case you have had two weeks off as well, I have a little timeline. So bear with me, everybody. On the 27th of July, Infantino marked the end of the World Cup. I lifted this from The Guardian, by the way, if you want more detail on it. By taking to Instagram with a 15-page post calling out the media for trying to sully it.

1:27Those sitting behind pens and papers, behind their screens, spreading hate and false rumors, specifically about greed and Infantino's relationship with Trump, had let themselves down. Journalists should take a moment to reflect, meditate, pray or watch a match. I feel very seen. The next day or hours later, actually, a report in The Times exposed his secret£3.1 billion plan to sell stakes in the World Cup to private investors, potentially earning him tens of millions of pounds. The deal would have involved the brother of Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, Politicians and football figures attacked that.

1:59The next day, it emerged that FIFA had given the 211 member associations a deadline of the 19th of September to back it or lose their£15 million cut. CONCACAF said it was only made aware of the matter through media reports. UEFA accused FIFA officials of using sport to enrich themselves and their friends. The following day, the 30th of July, all 55 UEFA members agreed to boycott FIFA competitions if the plan goes ahead. On the 31st of July, Andy Burnham became the first head of a major nation to call on Infantino to resign. Trump said he had nothing to do with it. On the 1st of August, FIFA backed down.

2:33Infantino instead issues a news statement, withdrawing the plan, having, quote, listened carefully to all the views. Qatar come out in support of Gianni. The 2nd of August, the New York Post claims that Infantino has repeatedly tried to call Trump for help, but Trump isn't answering. On the 3rd of August, Ingram Wells, Serbia, joined Finland and Sweden in demanding change at the top of FIFA. On the 4th, FIFA No. 2, Matthias Gravstrom, calls the plan a sad and reproachable series of events in a leaked email to staff. On the 5th of August, we're almost at today, Infantino calls a FIFA crisis meeting in Morocco.

3:04FIFA then issues a statement saying staff have given him their unanimous backing and put critics on notice. It was agreed that FIFA will no longer tolerate any attacks on its integrity. Oh dear. Luis Figo becomes the first high-profile footballer to go in two-footed. On the 6th, UEFA doubles down on its boycott threat. FIFPro says reform is not a cover-up but urgently needed. On the 7th, then Mexico and Argentina follow Africa's governing body in rallying around Infantino. Norway's FA called for him to go. Infantino arrives in Colombia for the inauguration of the hard-right president El Balado de la Espriela, a key Trump ally.

3:40That day as well, the Telegraph reports that a woman received a six-figure sum following an alleged relationship with Infantino while he was at UEFA. Allegations that FIFA dismissed as categorically untrue. And then the next day, that was the 8th of August, two days ago, UEFA confirm a departure payment was made to a female employee who is alleged to have been in a relationship with Infantino while he was UEFA's general secretary. Yesterday, Javier Tebas, the head of La Liga, said Infantino's position at FIFA is untenable. And FIFA said it welcomes legitimate scrutiny. But scrutiny is not a license to distort facts, amplify unsubstantiated allegations or manufacture distractions designed to undermine progress.

4:18So it's legitimate scrutiny time, Matt. Do we start with why what he was proposing is so bad? Or is that obvious to everybody? Or is it worth spelling that out? I think the most extraordinary thing for me came out of a conversation I had yesterday with someone, senior in European football, who said, if Gianni had gone about this the right way, he probably would have got support for it. The only reason, or the main reason, has been the outcry, not in Europe, but elsewhere in the world, is that it was secret. no one knew about it and it just looks really bad and that is the most extraordinary thing for me is that how Infantino could not see that doing a secret deal which undervalued the World Cup with a close family friend of Donald Trump would just be a no-go yet he couldn't see it.

5:10Yeah but do you think that's because once you have so much power and you tend to surround yourself with sycophants then you you lose sight of reality is that fair well it's because he didn't consult anyone who he thought might disagree with yeah now there are lots of people who see this opportunity right to get rid of infantino but he does still have lots of support do you think his plan is to kind of just ride out the storm you know lots of football seasons start soon or have started our focus the media's focus will will turn elsewhere i think that is his plan and i think it's working i think there was a point maybe a week ago five days ago where if other confederations had followed him behind uefa and gone really hard and said he must go then his future would have been in doubt but that hasn't happened and even the people on fifa council which is like supposed to be the cabinet of fifa as it were in political terms they've been trying to sort of push for an EGM to discuss this and then they're not getting the votes they need to even even call that meeting never mind call for a vote of confidence or get rid of him so that just shows how hard it is going to be to change anything so I think in the short to medium term nothing will change and the question is if Europe, UEFA can find a candidate put up against him in next year's election and and also get enough support.

6:34Or if UEFA carry on with their threat to boycott right Because it's not just, you know, the original thought as well, that there isn't really a men's World Cup for a while, but there are, you know, women's tournaments soon, under-20 tournaments, you know, there are FIFA-sanctioned tournaments that UEFA teams will be playing in. Yeah, there's an under-20 Women's World Cup next month and there's senior qualifiers in October. England have got two games, two-legged play-off against Greece to qualify for the Brazilian World Cup, which is a big deal, obviously. but I think and so next month will be a real tension point will UEFA back down will FIFA back down and issue some sort of statement saying we're sorry we'll never do this again but I'm talking to people in football even that isn't quite the leverage it appears because to be honest the Women's World Cup it's important for the people involved but it doesn't make FIFA any money they're losing money They're paying to put it on, basically, because it hasn't got any commercial value.

7:39If European teams don't turn up, it's embarrassing. But FIFA aren't losing anything. And in fact, they can probably spin it to their advantage saying, oh, look, Europeans, they're trying to destroy the world. They don't care about women's football. They want everything their way. So I think it actually will potentially be damaging for UEFA if the boycott goes ahead. Does this mistress and payoff, if true, make any difference apart from confirming any assumptions that he's a massive insert the worst four-letter word here at home and as well as at work so the fact that it's come out now shows that the enemies of Infantino are piling up and they're trying to get all the information they've got to throw at him but unless it's shown he's done something illegal I don't really see it sticking I mean there's parallels with very close parallels with Donald Trump, his great mate in this.

8:32He's been accused of all sorts of impropriety. There's been court findings against him, yet he's still President of the United States, right? I'm interested in what you were saying in the intro, Max, about the sort of not Eurocentric view of this, because I'm definitely guilty of thinking, why on earth would anyone want this guy to stay? Obviously, as you say, he has got loads of support from elsewhere, But there are also accusations that the Jordan FA basically said he blackmailed them. I mean, that's pretty serious. I just wonder brutally why he's got so much support from elsewhere. Is it simply because he's the one who holds the cards and the money for these federations?

9:09Because he made a huge amount of money for them, basically. That's the way the system works. And FIFA's unusual one-member, one-vote system means that if you're England or you're Germany or you're Jordan or you're the Faroe Islands or you're Curacao, you get the same money. So for a lot of these countries, and it's not everyone says it's the small countries, it's not really. For the vast majority of countries, most of their football funding comes from FIFA. I think he's increased it by a factor of eight in his 10 years in charge and under the proposal he was going to quadruple it again from five million US dollars over four years to 20 million plus the£20 million sweetener that Max referred to in the intro.

9:54So he was massively increasing the handouts, which frankly is why he has his support. But he's also done other things. And again, we're guilty of looking through an English-European lens, but he has increased access. We might not like 48-team walk-ups and 64-team walk-ups because if we're English or French or German, not Italian, we qualify for 32-team walk-ups. so we don't need it. But these things are popular and he's obviously done that. That's the World Cup, but he's done that on a lesser scale in youth tournaments as well. So he has, if you're trying to be sympathetic, he has broadened access and made football more of a global sport, which obviously is popular.

10:36Listening to what you're saying, is there a chance that actually he'll come out of this even more powerful? You know, because obviously for people like us who have been very critical of him for a long time and who don't necessarily believe that he really cares about football fans, even if he has, you know, helped football in lots of small countries. His motivation isn't necessarily to help football in those countries, but that is a byproduct of it. Is there a possibility that after this, you know, there is this threat to his power, he clings on, he holds on, then there's not going to be another threat to his power for ages?

11:09I don't think he'd be more powerful, and he's definitely damaged by this. And there's no way even he could spin falling out of UEFA and a threat to boycott the World Cup is a good thing. So he's clearly messed up. I think the height of his power was the day after the World Cup, the day of the World Cup final. He told all the federations he made US$15 billion for them, which is more than even he could have expected to make for the World Cup, largely because of ticket prices and secondary markets and hospitality, etc. So at that point, he was untouchable, and he was already basically putting wheels in motion to definitely expand to 64 in 2030, which would have been really popular in South America because they've got more games, etc.

11:58Whatever happens, he's now weakened. So things like that that he wanted to do may not happen, but the idea that he's going to topple in a week or a month or even six, I don't see it. And I think even if there is an election next year, it's pretty hard to call. Yeah. And, you know, in the same way that, you know, most of the left leading world are like desperate for like one brilliant Democrat to appear to be the person to take on Trump. Who is the guy, you know, who's the guy or the girl? Who is the person to take over, you know, to challenge Infantina? Well, there's three candidates and it's not great news because one of them's already lost to him in 2016, the head of the AFC Salman.

12:43Nasser Khalifi, who's president of PSG and European football clubs, has said he doesn't want to do it and he can't do it really because his ultimate boss is the Emir of Qatar and Qatar have said we're backing him on Tino, so he's out. Which basically leaves one man, Victor Montagliani, who's the president of CONCACAF, Canadian. He's been head of CONCACAF for eight years. He's seeking re-election again next year. He's been seen for a long time as a successor in 2031. A lot of people are now urging, pushing him to stand next year. And the key is, does he think he can win? If you think he can win, I'm sure he will stand because he does want and he would be able to present himself as a change candidate.

13:31He's not European, but he has Italian ancestry. So that sort of helps unite North America and Europe in a way. but it's his silence has been stark over the last couple of weeks so it'll be fascinating to see if he moves and then he could end up being worse than Jan you know Blatter goes and he's worse Robin well that's what I'm going to say like I saw in the Athletics Seb Stafford-Bloor basically said is it time for to not have a president and to kind of reform but I don't know how that he didn't really know and how would that work because it just seems like everyone who steps into FIFA HQ becomes sort of Dr.

14:08Evil So is there a way of kind of not having this kind of totemic figure in charge of everything? Well, there have been some interesting ideas that have emerged over the last few weeks. How you action them or not is a different question, of course, but someone was saying that they should just rotate it every four years and every four years the president should come from a different confederation so it is shared around the world. I mean, FIFA is extraordinary. Let's not forget how rare change is. I think in 50 years, we've had free FIFA presence, Havalanche, Blatter, and Infantino. Blatter only left because the FBI basically parked tanks on his Swiss hotel where he was staying.

14:52Infantino was supposed to be the reform candidate, but he changed the rules. Rule that said he could only serve free four-year terms, but after 10 years, decided to change it, and he can now serve four. so yeah I'm the one behind he's always talking about democracy which is hilarious so yeah it's pretty hard FIFA clearly needs root and branch change it's just how do you achieve that where you're handing out all these money people aren't you know turning their vote are they what a three Avalanche Blatter Infantino that's great isn't it alright then Matt we'll get you back on as and when this story develops or we all forget about it for six months.

15:34But cheers, pal. Thanks for coming on. Anytime. That'll do for part one. Part two, we'll begin with all the stuff that we've missed, starting with Eddie Howe leaving Newcastle.

15:50So then, Sam, you're a Newcastle fan, you know, and you need to step up after your deafening silence because your support for Infantino in part one. Eddie Howe's gone. a new man's come in Matthias Yesler you've lost all your players how are you feeling? How am I feeling well when I saw the agenda come through for this podcast I thought actually the Infantino stuff was a bit of light relief before my like therapy or emotional torture started because Nicasa have been in the news a little bit in the last couple of weeks. So Eddie Howe, right. One of the things with football, it's a real issue of it, is a lack of something called nuance.

16:36You either have to be pro or against something. So for the last year or maybe not quite a year, but in Newcastle's fan base last year, there was this division. It was either you were a happy clapper for Howe or you were against him and you were ungrateful. And this narrative was driven. It was driven online, social media, a little bit by some very pro-How journalists. And the truth lies somewhere in between. And I think it's important to remember that it is possible to hold two thoughts in your head or two opinions that don't massively align with each other. So you can say that Eddie Howe and still think that Eddie Howe did an absolutely brilliant job at Newcastle United, which I do.

17:21and you can also have in your head that it was probably time for a change for something fresh and that's without attributing necessarily blame there was so many different factors in it so what it's a long-winded way of trying to say i i think it was time for early how to go i think he should have gone at the end of last summer i almost wish he did because he would have got that last time game of the season he would have felt the love from the newcastle fans for everything he did and Newcastle United, which includes winning a trophy. I mean, on that basis, he's the most successful Newcastle manager in a long, long time.

17:58There's a debate as to whether he's the best Newcastle manager, but I mean, that's just subjective and it doesn't really matter. So we remember the good things about him. What he did do, I think, anyhow, when he came in and kept Newcastle up right, they won 12 of their last 18 Premier League games. They'd only won one game before that in the season. So the uptick under him and then the following season when they finished fourth with almost the same squad. And what Eddie Howe managed to do, I've been reflecting on this, I've never been more invested in Newcastle United than that first 18 months, two and a half years under Eddie Howe.

18:33It was absolutely fantastic. It's almost because they reverse engineered it. When Piff came in, it was a shell of a football club and there was no proper setup. So they just basically had to bring this manager in and his staff. And then ever since then, they've been struggling to construct around him. They reverse engineered this setup and Howe had a lot of the power over transfers and things happened. Directors of football came and directors of football went. And then last year, you could just see it going stale. The same things weren't quite working. The transfers last summer didn't work. They spent a lot of money on players that Howe wanted that they didn't all work out.

19:06They couldn't handle the number of games. There were players who have now left that had already started to check out and the intensity wasn't there. And it just felt like, you know, in relationships where the sort of it's like, I love you, but I'm not in love with you anymore. And it just felt for a long time like it was going that way. Different Newcastle fans will tell you at which point they realised that. But it just wasn't working. But and for good reasons, everyone tried to hang on because it had been so good for so long. But I think the inevitable happened. People talk about timing and that he came in and said just before preseason, actually, I can't do this.

19:41I don't mind that because I think we've all done things in life where we fought in theory. Yes, I can go and do that. And then actually it's come to it. You've walked into the room, you've got to that event and actually you're like, no, I just can't do it. And I think what he did was for the good of Newcastle United. And I think now, whereas there was a divided fan base last year, now there's going to be very much a United fan base behind the new guy. And it's a complete reset. From the outside, you sort of look at those players going, a manager that we don't know a lot about coming in, and you can feel a lot of how we were talking about, not necessarily similar-sized clubs, but sort of Brentford last year, or Bournemouth, I know they said that or Ayola, but they lost so many players, and you go, I think they might struggle, and actually, they could be absolutely fine this season.

20:27It's very hard to know. Yeah, I think you look at the managerial appointment and obviously see that there's links because he's managing Saudi Arabia, and you wonder is that the reason they've signed him or is it the job that he did previously in Austria? Were they taken by that and that's the reason that they've brought him to Newcastle? If you look at what the manager has done, it's the kind of appointment that Brighton, Brentford, Bournemouth make. You probably think, oh, a lot's gone into that. It's interesting, like Brighton, for example, have that list of managers that they worked on that have been keeping track of him for a long time.

20:58It's different with Newcastle. I think it's a different type of club. I think there's a lot going on at Newcastle at the moment. I think Sam's right that there's kind of blame in all portions of blame in all different corners of the football club. I think Eddie Howe was visibly struggling at the end of the season. I think he probably should have walked away earlier, like Sam said, but obviously he's tried to do it and then decided to walk away now. I think the owners have had to scale back dreams. They're closer to what they were under Mike Ashley than they are to that 2030 dream of basically winning everything and signing everyone.

21:31and it's not like a criticism because I think there's reasons for that with the financial rules. I think it's all just turned into a little bit of a mess and I think they've kind of stagnated a little bit behind the scenes. They've talked about the ground, the training ground. Sam will know more about that than me. I think they've got like a second, third-rate training ground still, so the stuff that they haven't achieved are on their side. I think overall it's just a shame because Newcastle, I think, were ready to attack on all fronts at one point and then suddenly in a matter of 12 months, they feel like they're further away from it than ever.

22:03And I think that's the sad thing because they genuinely won a cup, got in the Champions League again. And from there, when you think they're going to build on this and maybe go to the next level, they've probably gone down a level or two instead. That Brighton list of managers reminds me when someone opened the filing cabinet of the exec producer during the Soccer M Glory years and there was a list of male presenters CVs. Jason Manford CVs in there. Oh, what? How's that? Has he sent that in? Or if they just lifted that off the internet? Anyway, certainly put the wind up me. So how do you see it then, Sam?

22:37I mean, like you say, everyone will be united. But you have lost, you know, Gimaraes, Tonali, Gordon, in addition to the team players you lost last year. That is quite a lot of players. It is quite a lot of players and quite a lot of very good football as well. And Trippi is gone as well. He's out of contract. I'm excited. And I think last year, it's horrible to say it, but it became inevitable. people were turning up going this is the same old same old we know what's going to happen all these points drop from losing positions teams had worked Newcastle out Newcastle hadn't worked out a way of playing when teams weren't attacking at them whereas now it's like I don't know what it's going to be I'm not someone who comes on and pretends having googled these new players we decided that I know much about them they're young they're exciting I think they need to get a little bit of experience in people like Johan Wisser, Volta Marder, Alanga who didn't have the best of years sometimes a fresh manager a fresh start um they are better players than they showed last year so that'll be quite good so there'll always be people who benefit and people who lose out when there's a managerial change and david hopkinson he's the ceo right and he so he's come out he talked about how the new manager is a born winner and a rock star and called him fire and all these americanisms but it's newcastle 2.0 so it's like i don't know is it like a bug in a system do we have to get to like 2.6 is it like apple mac refreshes before we're actually quite good i don't know all right and see but if you move that aside what he did say was that look we basically we've got to pay the credit card bill they've they've overspent they went for it and now there's got to be a reset because whatever you say about psr scr um they're paying a price for failure and they finished 12th last year with all those players they finished 12th last year and some of them had already checked out there's no european football and so what they've got is these new young lads they've cut the wage bill and he's rode back a little bit i think it was it didn't help the hopkinson coming out and saying 2030 we want to be number one i think it's still 2030 but it's want to be competing for those sort of prizes so yeah like it's just fresh we don't know and well you know one thing i'd say on how is i'm really glad it doesn't it didn't get to a situation where it was really toxic.

24:44By October, under Eddie Howe, if results hadn't gone Newcastle's way and he's got, on paper, a significantly weaker squad, that would have been a sad way to end it if it had got toxic and they'd have had to get rid of him. Whereas I think Yeister will get a little bit more time. People will run with it. And, you know, there's already the new, this song, the Yeister, I can boogie. So that'll be a great away end chance. So yeah, who knows? I'm excited to watch Newcastle again. Sam, who are the panellists who do just come on after a cursory Google and pretend to be expert. Are you going to name names?

25:16Who are you throwing under the bus? No, I wasn't necessarily thinking to panellists. I'm thinking about my Newcastle WhatsApp groups where people suddenly become experts on Ajax's 18-year-old Sean Sturr. And suddenly after 20 minutes, he's like, oh yeah, he's an ex-Bruno Kimberna. It's like, okay, of course, you've watched it. You've followed his youth career. We should pay tribute to Kevin Keegan. Sadly died at the age of 75, suffering from cancer. Son of a Yorkshire coal miner. adored by fans of everyone he played for, right? Starting at Scunthorpe, Liverpool, Hamburg, Southampton, Newcastle.

25:49He won three league titles, a European Cup, an FA Cup, two UEFA Cups for Liverpool. Won back-to-back Ballon d 'Ors in 78 and 79 when he was at Hamburg, helping them win the title as well. Bit too young for any of us to remember as a player, but I watched his highlights the other day and left foot, right foot, up foot, short guy, unbelievable in the air. We know him as this manager and a sort of incredibly lovable figure. But what a player. Incredible. And I think you're absolutely right. That sort of bit of his career, which is quite significant, is sort of undervalued, isn't it? And underrepresented.

26:22I just think, I mean, you mentioned that the story, where he came from and to win back-to-back Ballon d 'Ors, it's like Hollywood, isn't it? An amazing story. And I just think as a character, very humble guy, because I think I saw him saying that he knows that he's sort of remembered for, in England anyway, way for his perm for that you know for that sort of rant you know when he was at Newcastle and also for falling off a bike when he was on Superstars yeah so it's like he kind of sees that I'm all right with that and I just think actually a lot of a lot of people would go I'm really pissed off because I you know look at all that I've achieved but just a great character he didn't seem very cynical at all and you know the way he you know he took on England and sort of made the decision himself that he wasn't up to the job just think very self-aware reflective and yeah just a real lost to the to the football community but isn't it great that we we had characters like that you know representing us and yeah just just wonderful and actually it's interesting sam you were talking about you know the debate about who's the best newcastle manager ever and the fact that eddie howe won a trophy right and and keegan didn't win a trophy and maybe it's just nostalgia talking for me but i sort of think in 20 years time we will still remember the entertainers right you know the Ferdinand, Ginele, Aspria, the Philippe Albert lob, the four threes that I will love it more than we will remember a more functional Newcastle team that won the Carabao Cup in 2025 or whenever it was.

27:46Yeah, and I think it's important to say with Keegan, right, the man we've been talking about at the top of this podcast is everything football shouldn't be. And Kevin Keegan is just the complete opposite that. He was just a pure footballing guy. Vulnerability at all, right? It was all about the emotion, about the sense of community, bringing people along for the ride, getting some joy, getting some despair. And yeah, that's a debate that Newcastle fans have been having. Where do they sit? You've kind of got your Robsons and your Keegans for their charisma and what they brought. So Keegan won a lot of silverware at Liverpool, and he won his Ballon d 'Ors at Hamburg, which Robin says is remarkable for a bloke that's played in the fourth division of English football to then go and win Ballon d 'Ors.