Is Xabi Alonso’s time up at Real Madrid? – Football Weekly Extra

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30goals from Mad Wake here, Martinelli too. We'll round up the rest of the Champions League action before a Premier League preview. The Tyne Weir Derby is back and we'll leave plenty of time for Philippe to get stuck into the World Cup draw, the ticket prices, drinks breaks and the ethics committee. All that plus your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

0:52On the panel today, Barry Glendening, hello. Hi Max. From the Racing Post, Mark Langdon. Hi Max. Bonjour, ça va, Philippe Auclair. Ça va très bien Max, bonjour. Bonjour and hola, comment est-ce ? Sid Lowe. Muy bien, gracias Sid. Pour part uno, solamente. Anyway, right, let's start at the Bernabeu then. Real Madrid 1, Man City 2, another loss of Real Madrid. One win in their last five in the league, Sid. Their worst run in four and a half years. And I mean, you were telling me yesterday, Alonso's basically gone, which from the outside seems kind of mad. Yeah, but it's Real Madrid. and it's the nature of it.

1:30And I think you've got to look slightly beyond the results to the mechanics within the dressing room, to the way that they're playing, to the level of performance, to the kind of tensions that you always get at Real Madrid. On Sunday night, after they were beaten by Celta de Vigo and they weren't just beaten, they were pulled about the pitch by Celta de Vigo. It was really fascinating to watch, actually. There was a meeting at the Bernabeu. Long into the night, plenty of the people around the president feeling like maybe it's not a bad idea that he gets sacked. There was an inclination to do that then, but there was a decision to hold on in part to kind of allow, I suppose, this game to be a sort of a judgment, if you like, upon them.

2:08And the difficult thing now is that this game is slightly inconclusive because you can take a step back from this. And of course, this is what was happening partly last night and say, well, this is against Manchester City, who are a very, very strong team. You lose 2-1 to a debatable penalty. It doesn't really matter whether it's debatable, but it wasn't so clear cut. as to say, wow, you know, you got absolutely battered. You hit the bar in the last minute going for a comeback. There was a bit of a reaction from the team. They've got eight players missing through injury. And so you can create a kind of, if you like, a positive narrative around it.

2:40But it's still only now two wins in the last eight games. They've got two more before Christmas. I think I'm right in saying they go away to Alaves this weekend and then play against Sevilla, plus a Copa del Rey game, which they really shouldn't lose against third-tier team, Talavera, which is about an hour south. And so there's a huge amount of pressure there. There's that pressure there because of all of those elements. And in particular, of course, because the fault lines are showing. And the fault lines are showing. And of course, it's always much, much easier. And particularly at a club like Real Madrid, to replace the manager and to replace the players.

3:11I'm going to strip this down to the most simple thing imaginable. Which is, if you like, the kind of the mindset that underpins this. And the most simple thing imaginable in terms of that mindset is, there's only one Vinicius. But there are loads of managers out there. Right. Is that simple? I mean, is it just about him? Because this idea, there's this sort of very oversimplified idea that, you know, Real Madrid players have just, they've got such massive egos that they just want to be given a ball and say, off you go, which is sort of debasing how good Ancelotti was, unless that's what he did, right?

3:43I think it does debase Ancelotti. And I think, you know, it's kind of incumbent upon us to not always go down that route. But there is a temptation to do that. And if you look at the managers that have been really successful over the last, I mean, I think you can go back almost 30 years and you look at managers that have been really successful, is that for the most part, they've been managers with what's always known in Spanish as having a left hand, that ability to engage with the dressing. There's a lovely phrase that Vicente Del Bosque came up with once, which sums it up quite nicely, I think, which is he said, in part, the secret is making the players think it was their idea.

4:16You know, that you don't sort of impose upon them. You provide a framework through which they work. You give them a degree of freedom. Now, I think the problem is, of course, that that leads to this idea that, oh, it's the players are all lazy. They don't want to run around. I think obviously they do want to run around. They do want to compete. They do want to do things. But there is that kind of element of freedom and self-status as well as team status and some of the things that you have to do. And of course, the big contradiction at the heart of this or the big problem at the heart of this is that Xabi Alonso was brought in precisely on this basis that here's a systems coach.

4:51Here's a coach that will give them a structure. because we shouldn't forget that while Carlo Ancelotti was enormously successful, last year Real Madrid were absolutely disastrous and it just fell apart. And so you get this natural thing, I suppose, of searching for the thing you haven't got. And so there's this idea, well, what Xavier Alonso will do will bring structure. Imagine these players, but with a structure. Imagine how good it could be. But then you've got to encourage some of these players or make some of these players do some of the things that... It's not so much that they don't want to do it because that makes it sound really simple.

5:19Like they've just gone, ah, run around, not doing that. But they don't naturally do that. It's not their natural inclination that the pieces don't naturally fit together. I also think there's some holes in the squad. They don't have a midfield playmaker. They don't have Subi Mendy, who Xabi Alonso really, really wanted them to have. But here they are in this, what would we call it, in this rut, I suppose. Yeah, I suppose it's hard to make Vinicius or whoever think, I don't know if Xabi Alonso likes inverting fullbacks. This is your idea, to make him come in one day and say, hey lads I've got a great idea you know why don't why don't we press on the b of the bang or whatever is there a bit of a like a vacuum of leadership within the dressing room if you think of like in the last few years of losing Ramos and Cruz and Modric and those players that might I mean you'd imagine Modric was just like a great example in a dressing room but like players that were of that level that even if there was discontent within the ranks it wouldn't bubble beyond a sort on a certain level.

6:15Even Cristiano Ronaldo. Now, Cristiano Ronaldo, obviously, a lot is often made of his kind of self-sense, sorry to say, his sense of self-worth and how much of it is about him. But there could, I mean, you just use the word example. There's no better example than him in terms of professionalism, in terms of determination, in terms of a kind of a will to win and be really, really relentless about it. I think if you look in the dressing room now, you do sort of wonder about some of those personalities. Danny Carvajal is the really obvious example, but he's been injured a lot over the last year or so.

6:47Leadership goes beyond just the personality. I think it's about the play as well. So with someone like Tony Kroos, you can give him the ball and you play from there. Or he can take responsibility for leading to play. You look at Real Madrid, and this is a ridiculous thing in a way to say, because it sounds dismissive of footballers who are very, very good. But let's say it, where's the central midfielder? Where's the person who actually makes them play? There kind of isn't one that takes the responsibility to construct all that. Last night, they ended up playing Dani Thabajos. And again, with the risk of sounding dismissive of Thabajos, this is the one midfielder who's actually a bit of a kind of run the game kind of player, a bit of a keep the ball moving player, a bit of an imposer style on you type of player.

7:28And yet it's Dani Thabajos, who they've tried with over many years and never quite ever felt like they were entirely convinced by. So whose fault is that? Is that Alonso or is that Florentino Perez? That's a recruitment problem. That particular part of it, of course, is about hierarchy. It's about finance as well. And I think one of the things that we sometimes forget is that Real Madrid, although they do spend a lot of money, actually don't spend very much money. You look over the last few years, they've been really quite cautious with how much they've spent. There's been a handful of really big signings.

7:56This summer, in fact, in part, you could say, they signed big money on the kind of players they wouldn't normally do. Dean Halson and Alvaro Carreras cost a lot of money and they're not the kind of players that Real Madrid would normally go for. But that central midfield piece, which Xavi Alonso would very much have liked to have been Martin Thubomendi, they didn't bring in. So what happens now? That's exactly the question we were all asking ourselves last night. Last night, it feels like it slows things down a bit. It means that there isn't an imminent sacking in theory. But the underlying things are still there.

8:28Now, I think part of this, of course, is about how you react and whether or not you can get... And Shogu also said something last night. Now, obviously, this may well be wishful thinking. And, of course, the decision isn't his. He says everything passes, everything goes. In the end, you get through everything. And I suppose there will be that sense from him of what if I can get the players to respond. And some of the players last night were queuing up. Maybe they have to publicly to say that we're behind the manager. I thought Aurelien Schoeman, he's pre-match press conference, was very, very clear defence of the manager.

8:56and I thought actually a sincere one. You know, it's our fault. We're the ones not doing some of these things. But then you have to ask yourself whether they ever really can with consistency with the kind of players they've got, with the approach that some of those players have, with the structure that Xavi Alonso is trying to put in place. And also then again, that question about Xavi Alonso's ability or not to engage with those players, to seek empathy and connection with them and bring them on board. But last night you got players defending the manager. Last night you got a response at least for 20 minutes at the start or 25 minutes at the start and 20 minutes maybe at the end.

9:29And you've got a sense that maybe there can be a reaction. The problem is, let's go back a week. So a week ago, Ramadu go away to Athletic Club. They play really well. They win away at Salon Mesh, the stadium that's kind of, you know, the most mythologised in the whole of Spain. And everyone goes, oh, there you go. Something to build on. It's happened. They've fixed their problems. You know, they've sought accommodation. They've got together. They've said, listen, we're all in this together. Even if there's been issues before, come on. And we're all in the same boat. And they beat the Memphis.

9:56This is great. OK, this is the beginning, if you like, of things being calmed down. And they go back to the Bernabeu and they get absolutely battered by Celta. I know we have to move on to Manchester City at some point because they also played that game, apparently. But before that, several things. First thing, when you talk about the left hand, I love the expression. Is that like the left hand of the conductor? Because you use the right hand to beat time and use the left hand to cajole the players. Do you know what? I don't know. Because that could be an explanation. I don't know why that is.

10:23Yeah, I'm glad you've thrown that up because actually that is quite a nice explanation. So that's one thing. The second thing, I don't know if it's talked a lot about in Spain, but there was one moment yesterday which for me encapsulated what was wrong with that Real Madrid team. And I thought almost of it in sort of existential terms. On one hand, you had Manchester City for all their brittleness and their youth. They were existing. They were the being. And Real Madrid were nothingness. It was like Jean-Paul Sartre, you know, being in nothingness. And they were nothingness. And the best way to illustrate that, 59th minute, really promising situation.

11:05Vinicius gets the ball. Rodrigo has got about 20 yards of space on the right hand side and I'm there and I'm almost screaming at the screen and I'm thinking he doesn't want to pass him the ball he's going to hold on to the ball and he did and the result is that what was a clear cut opportunity, Rodrigo especially in the form that he was in in that game goes on the with a beat under our room and there's absolutely no doubt about that but he waited and waited and waited and by the time he gave the pass because he really had no other choice it was too late and i was wondering if people were talking about this as well because for me when i watched it i thought he doesn't want to pass the ball to him there's there's a problem here am i just being like uh you know paranoid conspiracy typical real madrid conspiracist no i think i mean that there has been there has been a lot of talk about about players not wanting to seek out certain types of passes but there's not been a huge amount of discussion about it specifically between Vinicius and Rodrigo.

12:05Rodrigo's barely played, by the way. When he scored last night, it was the first time he scored in 33 games, partly because he hasn't been playing many minutes in those games. And he was a player that in the summer, the club were trying to move on because they thought there was a market for him. They didn't play him at all during the Club World Cup in part to try and send him a message. But Xavi Alonso thought that he could be useful, but he really hasn't played. And he hasn't played in part, of course, because you've got, he would prefer to play on the left-hand side. I know he played on the right last night and he played very well there.

12:31and actually I think it possibly is where he's best. But Vinicius, Mbappé, Rodrigo, even Bellingham to some extent sort of drift all to the same side of the pitch. That's part of it as well. I think there is a distribution of space question. I also think there's a mechanical thing on that and the possibility that it's not so much not wanting to play the passes. There just isn't kind of, if you like, a natural immediacy of seeing those passes, of knowing that this is the structure, this is where it goes. And I think that's actually quite important. There's a moment, and it's almost around about the time you're talking about, in the second half.

13:04And it would be around about the hour where Real Madrid are playing the ball around in midfield. And then it goes back to defence and it comes around the back and it goes back into midfield again. And they're looking to see if there's a ball forward and it doesn't happen. So the ball comes back again. And the fans started whistling. And I think what we saw there was the frustration of a season in which everybody has seen that when Real Madrid can go up and run. And when a team offers them space to run behind. Because you've got players as quick as an Mbappe who admittedly didn't play yesterday in Vinicius.

13:29you can go beyond people and run out people which is what had happened in Bilbao but when Real Madrid have been in a position in which they've had to construct an attack they've had nothing this season genuinely nothing there's a phrase that doesn't work particularly well in English but the Spanish use all the time which is Real Madrid don't play at anything there's no idea there's no structure what are they playing at what is it that they are doing and the answer for so much of the season has been nothing I like the idea of Jean-Paul such a ringing talk sport Jean-Paul's online too what's your it's all about everything and nothingness brian that's what it is anyway um and everything passes which is also what mark langland says on boxing day after after a meat field christmas day what did you mark what did you make of uh this from a city point of view this game well i think from a city um point of view when you think about how they were outclassed in sort of the um in the burn about last season um it was an embarrassment really um that they were way off Real Madrid even if Real Madrid weren't at their best City were distant second in that tie over the 180 minutes and for them to have taken such a big step forward I think would have really pleased Pep Guardiola I've not been sure about them in the biggest games I would say sort of this new team but actually they feel like they're growing and definitely that left-hand side is really exciting O 'Reilly keeps on running can come inside very good technically um Sid was saying you know Real Madrid haven't got any passes you feel like O 'Reilly actually could go and play in central midfield and kind of run a game in midfield but he's doing it from left back and Doku a player that's been inconsistent I think it's fair to say in his time at City the way he's adding that just that final bit to to his play I think is really exciting for you know as far as Pep Guardiola looking at towards that second half of the season now.

15:22Jamie says on a scale of Ronnie Corbett to Bundyaki how good would Antonio Rudiger be at rugby I mean it's interesting Barry that Sid said it wasn't a blatant penalty and it looked pretty blatant it wasn't the first time in his career wasn't the first time in the game actually I think the O 'Reilly goal like if you look in the background Rudiger's like you know got his arms all over somebody. It was a penalty it was an undeniably a foul but again it's one of those ones that's often ignored by officials on this occasion it wasn't I think referees now have decided that if if a cross is going towards the player who gets bundled over then they will give a penalty if it isn't they won't so if if it had been someone behind Haaland getting bundled over it probably there would have been no uh foul given but yeah it was a penalty no no question I think Max there's something to be said about Antonio Rudiger at the risk of sounding sort of very, what's the word, very kind of very direct and sort of very nasty about him.

16:27Rudiger over the last few years at Real Madrid, and for a lot of the time, rightly so, has been celebrated as this incredible imposing centre-back of character and attitude and aggression and all the rest of it. But in particular, he's been celebrated as this madman. Like the sort of the daft things he does, all the really aggressive things, the hyper-aggressive things he does have been celebrated as el loco and over the last year or so i i feel like that needs to be rethought a little bit because he's a liability and he's a liability in part precisely because of that now most of the time he plays really well but these but it's precisely these kind of mad moments and look at him what sort of you know what what kind of crazy character i can't live with him can't live without him type guy well There is a bit of that.

17:16There is a bit of that. It's those moments that cost them. So you take this penalty last night. Was there really a need for that? This player who we go, oh, look at him. He'll grapple with everyone. He'll fight everyone. He'll face up to everyone. He'll go flying in on challenges. And as long as you're getting away with that, everyone thinks it's amazing and he's got the character you love. But that puts you on a knife edge. And for example, the moment yesterday when he could have got the second yellow card, if he'd got the second yellow card for that challenge where he comes across, which basically happens because he's a bit slow to get there but is but it feels like he's determined to do the sort of the hard man act i don't know i i feel like with him there's a risk of him tipping over to the other side if you sort of mean well we've got you a couple of other spanish bits that athletic drew nilner with psg they needed to win and psg had a lot of chance in this game but villarreal lost to copenhagen they are out of the champions league 35th position somewhat of two teams who are out domestically they've won six in a row and a third one point behind Real Madrid.

18:13So how do we square all of that? Well, on the face of it, it's very difficult to explain. I would argue a little bit with Villarreal that Villarreal are an unusually consistent team. Admittedly, this isn't 100 % borne out by the Champions League, but I think it sort of is. I think they're an unusually consistent team in that they are a team that don't really have enormous highs and lows. So they're very strong. They're very well organised. You rarely watch them and think, wow, what an amazing team. but you watch them repeatedly and think, what a strong team they are. And by the logic, what I mean by that is, they beat everyone they should beat, but they don't beat everyone they shouldn't beat or anyone they shouldn't beat.

18:52And I think in a way, what's happened in the Champions League is here's just sort of a level again. Now, the reason why I say that doesn't entirely stand up is because, correct me if I'm wrong, Copenhagen and Paphos, those are games they should win. But for example, when they were beaten by City, who I thought were much, much better away at Villarreal than they were yesterday at the Bernabeu, You just thought, wow, they're just nowhere near as good. They're just not on this same level. I thought it's worth they've also got a goalkeeper who's made some fairly significant errors. Just before you go, Sid, who gets the Real Madrid job then?

19:21Zidane back? Ha-ha, well, that's part of the problem. See, you get in this position and say, well, change the manager. Okay, who's going to take over? And now they've got some internal candidates. They've got Solari, who's still sort of hanging around there at the club as a kind of all-round footballing advisory type person. And you've got Alvaro Arbelo, who's the head of the B team, who in theory is one of Xabi Alonso's mates. But I mean, I suppose that doesn't necessarily stop you taking the first team job. Zidane's name always comes up. But Zidane, well, correct me if I'm wrong, Philippe, but Zidane, it feels like very much is just waiting for his chance to take France.

19:53And also, it's forgotten this, by the way. And this actually speaks to everything we're talking about. Zidane, when he left Real Madrid last time, left with an open letter saying he was leaving because he wasn't supported. He wasn't given authority. He wasn't backed. And he kept getting undermined by the club. Sid, do you not think Iriola, is he just not a big enough name to be Real Madrid manager? Do you know what? Yeah, I mean, actually, I think there are doubts within the game about whether Iriola is a manager to go to a different type of team, if you sort of mean. There's no doubt that he's very much admired in Spain, but he's not someone that gets talked about in Spain.

20:26One of the other things that happens, and actually this happened a little bit with Xavi Alonso, is that, of course, you have people around the president at Real Madrid making suggestions. and I think this feeds into this whole thing of, well, the manager is kind of a necessary evil. So people suggest managers and in the end, essentially, the president goes, well, okay then, without necessarily being fully convinced by it. So I think what that does do is open the door for a slightly left-field appointment, yeah. Could Aaron Eslott and Xavi Alonso just swap jobs? Ari, I was thinking this yesterday.

20:53I was thinking, how funny would it be for them to swap jobs and then meet each other in the Champions League final and Xavi Alonso to take the Champions League off Real Madrid? I mean, it's not going to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. Yeah. All right, Sid. Thanks for coming on. Pleasure. Cheerio. Sid Lowe there. Out in Spain, I'll do for part one. Part two will begin with Newcastle's draw in Leverkusen.

21:19Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Let's begin in Leverkusen. A two-all draw for Newcastle. They were 2-1 up with two minutes left. But Barry, a wonderful goal to level it up for the Germans. There was great Tommy Me in the build-up from Alejandro Grimaldi in the build-up, ran on to the return pass from Maza and banged it past Aaron Ramsdale. I think a draw was probably a fair enough result. Newcastle were very, very, very poor in the opening 35 minutes. They let in a very soft goal from a corner. Robert Andrick bullied Sandro Tonali at the back post at a corner. His downward header literally went in off Bruno Himmere's backside.

22:07Newcastle were a little lucky not to give away a penalty. Malik Chaw hauled down Patrick Schick. It was just inches outside the penalty area. I think, was there a case for Chaw to be sent off? Yeah, I think so. A nine goal scoring opportunity? I think so. I think it's a definite red card. made no effort to play the ball and I don't, you know Schick would have been cleaned through on goal but he got away with a yellow Newcastle's equaliser Do you remember on Question of Sport, they used to have the what happened next round and one of the Leverkusen defenders, Paul passes the ball back to Mark Flecken who's now in goal for Leverkusen and when he has the ball, he receives the pass the ball's at his feet and Nick Valtamade is at least 14 yards away from him so if you'd freezed it there and said you know what happened next I don't think anyone would ever have guessed that within four seconds Valtamade would basically be all over Flecken who had somehow allowed him to to come and attack the ball Flecken brings down Valtamade and Anthony Gordon scores the penalty Anthony Gordon supplied the cross.

23:21Lewis Miley to score with a really good header. And then Newcastle do what they do far too often and has conceded a late goal. And that allowed a very good goal. And that allowed Leverkusen to steal a point. Eddie Howe was, yeah, not particularly happy after. Newcastle are giving away too many late goals. Anthony Gordon is attracting the ire of some Newcastle fans because he's playing well in the Champions League but going missing in Premier League games, that's becoming a concern. But he played well last night. I don't think you want to say any of them are going missing ahead of this weekend, just in case, you know, they pin it up on the dressing room wall before the Sunderland game.

24:01I mean, look, that mark is two points dropped. And it might be key in terms of the qualification because they've got PSV at home, which they should win, but they won't necessarily win. I mean, PSV are decent and PSG away, who may be through, I guess. but you know all these teams are desperate to avoid that playoff just because it's just more football isn't it yeah um and there's going to be some big teams um in that sort of nine um to 24 so you it's not guaranteed to get an an easy tie in that one i suppose i disagree in saying it was two points dropped i know they were winning quite late but i'd agree with barry that yeah certainly first half um newcastle were sort of lucky to to still be in the game and they definitely would have taken a point at that stage they they were getting pulled apart actually by one of their the tactic that they use so often with Volta Marder dropping deep and then players running in behind like they got done by that time and time again Schick consistently dropping deep and sort of Poku and Tillman running in behind and Newcastle were really disorganized which is not something you expect from the sort of an Eddie Howe team I think they're usually you know they're well structured but they were being pulled apart he definitely changed it um at half time and you know maybe they'll feel like they could have gone on and won the game hit the post a couple of times but uh Leverkusen it would have been really harsh I think if Leverkusen not got something out of the game and I haven't seen much of them this season but um the midfielder that Barry mentioned that was involved in the goal Mazza who um played for Germany sort of youth levels now um he's an algerian international definitely caught the eye um in central midfield he's only 20 but i wouldn't be surprised if he's got sort of big future probably somewhere else given the way lever cousin sort of turned their players over yeah i mean and he nutmegged down burn didn't he for the goal and i guess that's the easiest player to nutmeg in football isn't it given how long his his legs are you can nutmeg him it's hard to run around him though it depends how you nutmeg him yeah that's true i say well he didn't collect the ball again he nutmegged for the pass which is possible to bruges then arsene won 3-0 for league much changed side the only side now assured of a top eight finish 100 record scored 17 conceded one and two absolutely beautiful goals in this game from madwake martinelli yeah absolutely gorgeous uh as we said they didn't start the start the game particularly well just took them about 15 20 minutes and then and then only madwake it's actually ridiculous when you see when he receives the ball you think, actually both are quite similar in that, the players receive the ball in the position, there is no danger whatsoever, they're on the wing, then suddenly a burst of acceleration, very very impressive an absolutely unstoppable shot, which of course to make it much more pleasing to the eye catches the underside of the bar there's nothing like it, oh it's so good and from then onwards complete control over the game, I mean I mean, Club Rouge created a few chances.

26:58Rayam made a couple of decent saves, but apart from that, it was almost complete control. And I think the Gabriel Martinelli goal is actually insane because he never looks once at the goal. He's doing what you're not supposed to do, which is to drive the ball, looking at the ball as you're running. He doesn't look at the goal. He just whacks it in the top corner after drifting past two players. Absolutely ridiculous. But I think in many ways, what most Arsenal fans will remember from that game, apart from the fact that qualification is now ensured, apart from the fact nobody got injured, if there was a little scare about Madweke who got injured with his hand, is the return of Gabriel Jesus, of course.

27:38I mean, and that is something of great importance because he looked really, really sharp, actually, when he came on. Actually, he clipped the bar with a shot. You could see that all his teammates were trying to put him in a situation where he could actually have an easy one to score. Didn't quite happen. But a very, very good comeback from Gabriel Jesus. And provided that some of the players, I mean, I'm not particularly concerned for Arsenal, you know, thinking of their next Premier League game against Wolves. that's not something to be too frightened by but it worked absolutely fine that he could rest the players he wanted to rest Arteta, he could give some minutes to players who needed minutes, Ben White has now played quite regularly so he's getting better, Luis Scully we know he's going to play because Calafiore is suspended for the next game in the Premier League and everything's worked absolutely marvelously well for Arteta and Arsenal but I think yes, apart from the goals what you'll remember is the return of Gabriel Jesus.