It’s time to write off the Germans and Brazil battle past Japan – World Cup Daily

0:00Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.

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1:04Nicky Bandini:Hello and welcome to the Guardian Football Weekly. What a brilliant day. So much tension, so much drama. The biggest story, Germany losing a penalty shootout for the first time in World Cup history. Paraguay tried really hard to let them win, missing two in a row to let the Germans back in. But Jonathan Tarr spooned one into Rosette. Jose Canale hammered home the winning spot kick. Cue unadulterated joy, the biggest win in their history. Game of the night was in Monterey, the Netherlands and Morocco. Two teams going at it from the off. An exhausting, breathless mess of sliding tackles, amazing saves, cramp and bloodied heads.

1:35Nicky Bandini:An emotional Cody Gakpo gave the Dutch the lead. Some great getting it launched to Vout. A last gasp equaliser from Issa Diop, of course. Another dramatic shootout with Morocco victorious. Feels like weeks ago that Brazil beat Japan. We all thought Japan had a chance, but everyone also thought Brazil plus Ancelotti equals a team that will just win games because it's meant to happen. Right at the end, Gabrielle Martinelli squeezing home the winner. Even without Mark Langdon, all the correspondence is from comedians about vegetables. We'll answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

2:07Nicky Bandini:On the panel today in LA, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hi, Max. Big shoes to fill. Archie Rintarte, mate. Hello. And on the night shift in Brighton, Nicky Bandini. Hey, Nicky. I need to know if Archie's coming in and started eating his vegetables right away. I need to know, even from England. Well, look, we will start with the football and we'll end with the vegetables. That's how this podcast should be. The Guardian Vegetable Weekly does it the other way around. Let's begin then with Germany getting knocked out by Paraguay. One all and then Paraguay winning 4-3 on penalties. The Paraguayan government's already called a national holiday for today.

2:42Nicky Bandini:Dwayne says, is it time to write off the Germans? Ben said, when did Germany get so bad at taking penalties? Asking for David Seaman and Peter Shilton. The first World Cup knockout game in 12 years. They're lost for another four at least. First time they lost a penalty shootout at the World Cup. Their first shootout defeat since the original Penenka in the Euros in 1976. So thanks for joining us and goodbye, Archie. But before we get on to the fallout from that, probably the greatest result in Paraguay's history, Barry, and it was some shootout.

3:13Max Rushden:Yeah, it was fantastic. I mean, it was worse. The game was not good. It was a hard watch, but it was worth it to have this penalty shootout at the end because Paraguay looked like they had it won. They scored their first three. Germany missed two of their first four. And then Paraguay let them right back into it by missing two in a row. And you're just thinking, oh, my God, they're going to do it again. But Jonathan Ta, as he said, spooned his into Rosé. And Jose Canale stepped up, sent Manuel Neuer the wrong way. and won it for Paraguay. And it was quite fitting, I think, in a way that Canale scored the winning penalty because he was just outstanding throughout himself and the Paraguay skipper, Gustavo Gomez, were absolutely sensational in the heart of the Paraguay defence.

4:09Max Rushden:And I don't particularly like watching them play, but I think they deserve this.

4:14Nicky Bandini:Yeah, I mean, credit as well to Orlando Hill, the keeper, Archie. He is massive. this is absolutely enormous man the goal looks so tiny for that shootout I think that was the thing is when you saw him stretch his arms and you saw them go above the crossbar you're like oh he really is very big and credit to manager Gustavo Alfaro as well because after the opening game against the USA I think you could have been tempted to change that back line and he stuck with it in the following group game. I think that they also weren't really tested that much by Germany in this game. Germany got themselves into positions where you were thinking, okay, now is the time to try a killer pass.

4:57But Paraguay didn't have to clear as much as you would have expected them to. That, I think, was a surprising thing for me. They were kept at an arm's length. And credit as well to Matthias Galarza, who seems to be everywhere on the pitch, involved in every tackle. And yeah, you can't begrudge Paraguay this at all because as much as one or two voices in Germany will say, but what about the disallowed goal for Jonathan Tarr in extra time? The fact is, none of the conversation really is around that in Germany because they didn't deserve to really win.

5:38Nicky Bandini:Yeah, and Nicky, as Archie alluded to, Paraguay was so bad in their opening game. To get to here and to knock out Germany is, I mean, you may have seen the video, so many amazing clips around the whole of Paraguay, people weeping and crying and cheering and everything. This achievement is extraordinary for them. Yeah, it feels like that moment, doesn't it, of the World Cup where it accelerates. Obviously, we're out of the group stage now, it matters. you can get knocked out and all of those feelings, those emotions get intensified so much. I mean, I think even though they have quite recent experience of doing pretty well at the World Cup, we'll get to Morocco later, but I thought some of the things watching the celebrations just now with that, the emotions you see from back home in the country are so huge.

6:26And you love it. I mean, that's why we love the World Cup. That's what we get excited about. But I was just thinking there with Archie talking about Jonathan Tarn having his goal disallowed. I was, when he came up to take the last penalty in the shootout, I was watching him and thinking, I mean, on the one hand, a second ago, you thought your team has really lost the shootout. They thought they lost the shootout. But is there a tiny party that thinks, oh God, now it's me who can lose the shootout after having had my goal roared off in extra time? I just wondered how that mentally was for him. And then, of course, he does miss his penalty.

6:58Nicky Bandini:Of the amazing videos, Archie, you showed me the best video I think I've seen from this World Cup, which is a bar in Paraguay somewhere where the TV goes into, you know, standby mode. We've all been there in the pub where you're going, no, the whole pub is yelling. It's literally as Canale is taking the penalty. And as he takes it, the standby thing disappears for a second. And I think a couple of people think the ball's gone in, but then the screen goes totally black. And then the guy is fumbling with the remote to get it back. And you see the celebration. It's so, so brilliant. On Orlando Gill, the Guardian have that guide for every single player.

7:31Nicky Bandini:And his is really interesting. just a little paragraph on each of them. In 2018, he was playing amateur football. Even last year, he was a backup goalkeeper for a team called San Lorenzo del Magro. He sold some of his gear to cover the costs, his wife said, so that they could eat with tears in her eyes after he'd made his international debut in the World Cup win for Paraguay against Peru. He was never trusted in domestic football in Paraguay. He moved to Argentina in 2024. San Lorenzo were trying to sign Keylor Navas, but they couldn't for financial difficulties. So he was given a chance and fair play to that guy.

8:07Nicky Bandini:What happens now for Germany? I mean, there's so much chat about Nagelsmann and everyone on German TV saying this is it, I guess. I think you've got to look at who is this on. And it's a mixture of factors. It's about how this generation of players is obviously not as good as the 2014 World Cup one. And that generation doesn't come around every cycle. You can't expect that even in a country like Germany. The problem is Julian Nagelsmann has not made things easy for himself. When you look at the strategy today, could you recognise one that was going on in the game? I mean, I thought bringing in Undav was weird because it worked so well him coming off the bench.

8:48Nicky Bandini:And then if you're taking out Musiala, that seems, I mean, OK, it's easy to talk in hindsight, but that seemed odd to me. I think it made more sense in that Musiala, Wietz, Havertz all think quite similarly. and sometimes they need a bit more ego to their game. They're all wonderful technical players, but do they all fit in the same team? And this is part of the problem with Julian Nagelsmann. It feels like it's always about I'm going to show you how good a coach I am by making this unlikely formula work and in the end it doesn't work. And we've seen a similar pattern with him at Bayern where they can smash smaller teams quite comfortably.

9:33But then in these underdog scenarios, they get into these awkward positions that they can't quite find a solution to. And yeah, that attacking imbalance, I think, has cost him. And Julian Nagelsmann has said after the game that, look, I'm ready to keep going in the Nations League and for the Euros. but if the German FA want to have a word then we will have to there is no way he can continue I can't see that at all Jurgen Klopp has been lurking on German TV

10:05Nicky Bandini:he was lurk with those teeth he was asked after the game and he said well I've I've not considered it

10:18and the fact that he's standing here is just a curiosity I don't think it is difficult to believe but yeah

10:27Max Rushden:actually Raphael Honigstein in his book Das Reboot he chronicles how because their football was so awful and turgid in sort of the late 90s early 2000s there was a complete overhaul of every single way German football was run and it worked because they won the World Cup in 2014 but they've now gone three World Cups without making the last 16 has that overhaul can that now be deemed a failure or did it just stop or did it get complacent or what's happened I just think that talent production doesn't work as perfectly as that all the time and sometimes in Germany you look at the amount of players who are coming through and Denis Undav stands out because he is not of an academy because he was eating unhealthy pasta meals some five years ago.

11:21Very much the Mark Langdon of the...

11:27So, I think it's difficult to say that the whole system has failed because there are players there with talent. It's just a problem that, for example, with this generation, you look at Florian Wietz and Jermain Musiala. Musiala coming off the back of a long-term injury this season and struggled to find form. Wietz, his move to Liverpool, has not worked out at all. I find it's too much to say well the whole system is broken I think that there is an answer there in the middle and I think that they overvalue how good they are and they need to adjust and play football accordingly they try and dominate games in a way that a big team with a lot more quality would and they maybe look at the individual quality there but when you look at how they come up as a team they fall well short and I found it interesting that Mats Hummels was pointing out albeit very much having to look between the lines that there are a couple of players in their early 30s, as he put it, who have been at four or five, six tournaments now and they need to think about letting the next generation come through, effectively is what he's saying.

12:33And in between the lines, he's having a go at Joshua Kimmich, Leon Goretzka, Antonio Rudiger. But the fact that he's going after Kimmich, someone of his generation doing that with his standing is interesting. But also there is the other side of it, which is Matt Swimmels didn't go to the Euros under Julian Nagelsmann two years ago.

12:52Nicky Bandini:So you wonder how much of it is. I just want to make sure because he's also called for Julian Nagelsmann to go. Just on the defensiveness of Paraguay, Barney writing on the shootout itself, going, watching Paraguay see this out, you hoped vaguely that they would at least remember to kick their penalties forward and not backwards, to run forwards, to run towards the ball on its spot, not away from it to cover any possible quick breaks the other way. It is worth pointing out, Nicky, that, you know, they've got Enciso, who is a sort of real bright light in this very rugged defensive team. Yeah, I've actually thought, like, the first few Paraguay penalties were brilliant.

13:28And this was the whole thing, wasn't it? Because Germany, historically, never losing penalty shootouts. And I was thinking, oh, so all it took to beat Germany in a penalty shootout was to just take magnificent penalties. And then it turned out, actually, you don't keep doing that. And it still works out. But yeah, listen, I think the emotion, again, and sees so when he scores the the full pledged commitment to getting to penalties and and it felt like a team with a plan for penalties even though that plan then went a bit wrong i kind of wanted to bring up because this is going to be foreshadowing another game but this idea of bringing a substitute on just take a penalty that always seems to go wrong um missing the what ends up not being crucial penalty but could have been because it was the last one And I'd love someone to do a real statistical deep dive into this.

14:15I think it's probably hard to do because how do you assert that a player is just being brought on for a penalty? But it does feel like the ratio of specialists assumed to be brought on to make it and then missing it, in my mind, feels much higher than what it should be. Yeah, cue Ivan Toni. Missing one on Wednesday. Finally, Archie. Worth mentioning Manuel Neuer because it looked for a brief moment like he would be the hero. And that would have been a real narrative change for Germany as well. But that's one final point to make about this generation of players, I would say to Barry's question, which is the fact that before the Euros, Germany had, or Julian Nagelsmann said, I need to go and get Toni Kroos because we don't have that.

14:59Before this tournament, I need to go and get Manuel Neuer. These are moves which say, I do not believe that we are good enough right now. So we can't forecast how good the next generation will be, but there will be big questions which are being posed in Germany right now.

15:17Nicky Bandini:We should mention Jonathan Tarr's disallowed goal because that was soft.

15:23Max Rushden:I think so. I don't think there was any foul, to be honest. I think Orlando Gale ran into Waldemar Anton and fell over. I don't think there was a foul. Anton had a couple of minutes previously got a ticking off for messing around at a corner. I think that might have influenced the referee's decision or the VAR official's decision. But that's allowed, as it should have been, I think. We're having a totally different conversation, probably. But I still think we would be extremely critical of how poor Germany were, even if they had won the game.

15:58Nicky Bandini:And it's France or Sweden for Paraguay, and that'll do for part one. Part 2 will do the brilliant game between the Netherlands and Morocco.

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17:27Nicky Bandini:Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Morocco, we've just watched it, winning that penalty shootout 3-2 against the Netherlands after the game finished. 1-0, Cody Gakpo scoring, very emotional afterwards. Then Issa Diop, who I obviously, I still think he was at West Ham. That's how far behind I am. But before we get to any of that, Barry, I just thought this was an absolutely sensational game of football.

17:50Max Rushden:Yeah, it was a really entertaining game. And I think we all noticed that on the Fox TV coverage here in the States, Thierry Henry and Zlatan were incredibly critical of the Netherlands and the way Ronald Koeman set up almost as if they were accusing of treachery of betraying the Dutch style of play and I suppose to an extent he did because he set up with five at the back that's how they started but for most of this game Morocco were really trying to win it whereas the Dutch were trying not to lose. And obviously it was the Dutch who went ahead completely against the run of play. Dirty long ball.

18:37Max Rushden:I'm so excited. Gets the flick on. Crescensio Somerville is on the ball. He either falls over or is tackle. But performs, I think, a near miracle to get a toe to it, to poke it in the direction of Cody Dacpo, who finished it. And then I think Morocco got the equaliser they deserved in added time. Isid Diop's good header, getting between Cooper Miners and Virgil van Dijk. And then Bart Verbruggen pulled off this incredible save from Soufiane Rahimi in extra time, the first period of extra time. Rahimi, he's got a score of that, but it was a brilliant save by Verbruggen. and Morocco duly went and won on penalties.

19:27Max Rushden:I think they were deserving winners as well on penalties because it would have been a bit of a travesty if the Netherlands had won this game.

19:34Nicky Bandini:It didn't feel to me that the Dutch were... It didn't feel so obviously defensive from the Dutch because Somerville was running everywhere. Timber was running everywhere. I don't know what Nicky. It was just sort of this... It was sort of incredible people running everywhere. I'm not articulating this well. issue for a podcast i guess but you take my point like this idea that you can't um play in a counter-attacking way because to me it felt like it's it felt like actually it's one sort of thing where antonio conti would get angry and say we're not counter-attacking we're playing fast break football it's something completely different but but if you've got chris enzio somerville who in this game looked to me like you know on youtube when you are trying to speed through some highlights you click it up to 1.5 speed every time he was on the ball it was like that happen he suddenly is just moving at different speed to everyone else on the pitch and like barry said that the setup on on the goal it almost feels like something between a footballing miracle and and something out of a cartoon like his body's all over the place but somehow he's still angled one foot to kick the ball to where it needs to be for gacpo to score so i think if you've got incredible rapid players like that playing to their strengths and inviting a team onto you can be a perfectly valid way of approaching a game and and i i think morocco absolutely deserved to go through but if the netherlands had gone through i wouldn't have been looking at the middle team that was going out in the next round either i think they looked like a team that could hurt you on the counter and that could do things and i think uh that was what made this the most compelling game of the knockout so far as i thought both of these teams could have won against both teams and some of the other ties yeah i totally agree i mean i i was writing before Issa Dioff's header you know this Dutch side looks really well balanced they've got depth they have you know good substitutions in the end I didn't need to write any of that down or say it out loud but the shootout as well was I mean the shootout was thrilling actually.

21:27The way that that penalty which Rahimi struck and Fabruggen looked to have saved it but actually Fabruggen just by moving his body he wasn't sure where the ball had gone after he'd saved it and he knocks it in the amount that hit the post go narrowly wide also because the goalkeepers were sent completely the wrong direction and then the goalkeepers get up and they're kind of strutting as if yes of course this is what I did and you're thinking yeah okay but but Bono in penalty shootouts he you saw I think most of all on Justin Kluivert's penalty where Kluivert is so close to taking such a good penalty but just by seeing bono in the corner of his eye he overcooks it just that little bit too much and yeah and i'll say from somerville right because he doesn't dive he just

22:15Max Rushden:sort of shifted yeah inside and stuck up a hand yeah yeah it was it was it was like some sort of funfair ride in some of you just kind of like this iron fist comes out of nowhere and especially for morocco we can't forget that this was i there was a great article on the guardian describing how much meaning there was to this game because of the large Moroccan diaspora in the Netherlands. And let's not forget that this game was on at 3am there as well. So that would have been quite a night of noise for quite a late equaliser that could you imagine? But also, I guess some of the Morocco players have had to put up with some pretty ignorant comments about dual nationality of why would you go and play for Morocco?

23:02you don't need to justify who you play for if you have a dual nationality it should be said but I'm sure that it is that much sweeter when you win it in this fashion I look Morocco got