Liverpool are back and Van de Ven scores a goal of the season contender – Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:29side. Elsewhere, Mickey van der Ven turns into Sun Heung-min and Gareth Baird at the same time and scores the kind of goal you see in a computer game and immediately think this game is unrealistic. You don't get those goals in actual football. Arsenal winner get a clean sheet, obviously. Also, there's a statement win for Bayern at PSG. We'll look back on Sunderland's draw with Everton, Gary O 'Neill turning down Wolves and discuss Mary Erks and Hannah Hampton. As always, we'll answer your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

0:56On the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning. Hello. Hi, Max. Now, welcome, Johnny Lu. Hello. And hello, Nicky Bandini. Morning. Let's start there at Anfield. Liverpool 1-0, Real Madrid 0. Brilliant performance from Liverpool. We kind of said on Monday that maybe Liverpool weren't as back as some has reported. But this feels, Johnny, like a very significant result and a win they totally deserved. Yeah, I think it was a brilliant performance, actually. And I think there is always a danger, and I think we've seen this not just with Liverpool, but with all the big clubs this season, there's always a tendency to overreact to one result, one performance.

1:31You know, Liverpool were, you know, they were going to walk the title earlier, weren't they? And then they were incredibly lucky. And then they were finished in crisis slot, eternally balled. And now they're back again. I think what we're seeing is obviously quite still a slightly fitful and inconsistent team that is capable of generating a really high level when it clicks, when the new signings and when the parts all fit together. And that's what we saw. I think the main issue, the main factor really is the fact that that midfield appears to be back. I mean, McAllister has had a, you know, he's been injured for part of this season and now he's back and they've got Gravenbursch and they've got Shobhas Lai not playing it right, but back in the centre.

2:20And they just look like a more functional team. They look like a more functional, organised, confident, driven team with those three in the centre. and it's no secret I think that when they haven't had those three in tandem and fully fit they haven't really looked like a you know they haven't really been firing and 1-0 could have been could have been a lot more to be honest I thought Real Madrid were really poor they looked totally bummed out I don't know whether it was like a delayed reaction to the Classico or whatever but they were you know the number of 50-50s where they just didn't even look like getting the ball I thought Dean Housen was he had an abysmal night to be honest but I think you know to a large extent This is because Liverpool put so much pressure on them.

3:04The press looks organised. So, yeah, we're declaring them back, are we? We're putting their name on the trophy. I mean, you've got to say, Barry, because it was just such a brilliant performance. And of those three in midfield, I thought Sobislai was just ridiculous in this game. Yeah, he was brilliant. Yeah, it was a bad night for former Bournemouth players who went for big money during the summer. because Kirk was dropped and Housen was poor. Sabazlai was everywhere. He provided the assist for the goal. He had shots saved. Another fine performance from Thibaut Courtois in the Real Madrid goal, I thought.

3:48One for his English haters, even if he did emerge on the losing side. But Sabazlai, I saw him being interviewed after this game, it was an interview Jamie Carragher conducted for that NBC banter show, but he said his favourite position is even deeper than the one he was playing last night, but he also stressed, you know, I'm happy just to be on the pitch, so I don't really mind where I'm playing. But he has been outstanding. Everyone thought that the arrival of Virts would lead to him having to fight for his place and probably end up being a substitute. But he has made himself totally indispensable this season wherever he ends up being on the pitch.

4:36And actually, Nicky, Slott managed to get Wirtz into the team as well and Wirtz played well as well. Yeah, I mean, it felt like more or less everyone played well, didn't it? There wasn't particularly a player you looked at in the Liverpool line-up and thought had a weak performance. I think they completely owned the middle of the pitch, which is, it was interesting when you take a view on just the bold stats of the game. I think Real Madrid had like 62 % of the ball. It didn't feel like that, obviously. That's just because of how the ball was used and the intensity, which I think Johnny was already referencing, just felt so much different on one side of this picture than the other.

5:15And to an extent, I do think that is the reality of this extended Champions League group, Real Madrid didn't need to beat Liverpool, but it still wasn't like they came here expecting or wanting to lose and certainly didn't expect to lose like that, I would say, in a game where it felt like they were, in the end, only really close because of Thibaut Courtois, who was absolutely sensational. I thought his first half save from Chavez, in particular, the one with his foot was, the more you watched it, the more sensational it looked because the body controlled keeper's foot there and it wasn't just one of those, I think sometimes when a keeper saves their foot, it's just because they're close and they hit it into their foot, but he really didn't.

5:59He used his whole body there, so it felt like it was very much Courtois against the world for a lot of this game and in the end, I suppose, the Liverpool world won. Aidan says, would a Super League be worth it if it means Conor Bradley can play against Real Madrid more often? It was perfect, Johnny, wasn't it? in that he is having this absolute world against Vinicius. Trent Alexander-Arnold isn't on the pitch and then finally comes on the pitch and then gets booed and doesn't really do anything. All the while, Vinicius is just kind of, I mean, Conor Bradley is kind of shepherding the ball out of play with Vinicius sort of tugging at him and everything.

6:31He was, it was such a great, that whole theatre was perfect. That was a great little subplot. I thought, you know, Bradley was absolutely fantastic. And you see the sort of player he can be when, again, when he's fully fit and he can cover that whole flank, He brings them a real energy and dynamism and a final ball. Then, of course, you have the, I guess, the Trent entrance. I don't know what you'd call it, a little vignette because it's hard to... The Trent-trent. The Trent-trent. There we go. There's a sub, a former sub talking. And, you know, because it's hard to say that he had very much impact on the game itself at all.

7:13I mean, almost none. but obviously everyone was waiting for this, everyone wanted to see what the reaction would be and the reaction would be I guess what everyone assumed the reaction would be. I mean this is you know you don't get to take your, I'm not a Liverpool fan but if I was a Liverpool fan and I have been dumped, you know I imagine it's kind of like being dumped right? You don't get to take your... Did you relentlessly go around town booing? Yeah I mean the murals of her were defaced I was shit-talking her on the internet. I burned the jersey I had with her on the back. Metaphor running dry here.

7:57But yeah, I mean... The Herb's bathrobe ends up in the fire. But you don't get to take your dream move and move on and expect it to happen on good terms. I think the amount of pearl clutching that has been over this, this is not how modern football fandom works. And yeah, there is a pantomime element to it. But there's also, I think, real genuine feelings. He's not having a great time under Alonso, by all accounts, Alexander-Arnold this season. He's had to fight for his place with Valverde. it wouldn't surprise me if he saw coming back to Anfield as almost a way of making it real. This might be the point where it's all basically the whirlwind of the last six months finally sunk in.

8:47Yeah, this thing is totally done. It was interesting that Alonso then throws him into the game in that situation, honestly, because the game was going so badly already for Madrid at that point. It's the 82nd minute. It's not like there's an expectation. Maybe there is an expectation. Maybe there's a hope from Alonso that this is going to galvanize him and he's going to come into the game and in eight minutes provide this injection of, oh, I can't wait to show those guys and turn it around. But it felt like, especially leaving it that late, I think maybe if you do it with half an hour, it feels a bit different.

9:18But leaving it that late, it felt a bit like throwing him to the wolves to me. it felt a bit like you could have you could have given him more of a chance than that if you wanted him to try to use this moment to to to get some some uptick in uh and something out of him i guess yeah i mean so we almost did it for the script writers you know almost better not to bring him on charlie says would max boo james richardson if he ever came on as a panelist i mean i guess the thing is barry booing is quite fun and i suspect a lot of people who booed have actually quite liked trent alexander and we're just having a bit of fun having a boo because like you don't get to boo very often, right?

9:50Unless you're an Everton fan. Yeah, I mean, there is genuine resentment among quite a sizable proportion of Liverpool fans over the manner in which he left them without the club being able to get a transfer fee, and that's fair enough, I suppose. I think I would probably be fine with it. He was a good servant. He was there a long time. He helped them win loads. I think the mural being defaced. And this seems to be, you know, when men of a certain age get angry, they immediately reach for the paint pot and brush. I suppose it's better than going for a more dangerous weapon. If the worst thing you're going to do is deface a mural or paint a roundabout, have at it, you know, it doesn't really bother me.

10:45Probably doesn't even really bother Trent. I'd be curious to know what he makes of it. He probably doesn't care. He probably had a fair idea of what was going to happen. Some people lap that stuff up. Some people might be hurt by it. I'd imagine he's probably somewhere in between. What did you make of the Real Madrid performance, John? I mean, you've said already it was bad, but it just felt really... So many of their styles were bad in this game. In fact, so many of their players were bad in this game. Yeah, I mean, I think, again, we're talking about Liverpool as a slightly inconsistent team that still has a really high top level.

11:26I think you could say the same about Real Madrid. They looked, I thought, really good in the Clásico. They rose to their level for that game. but then obviously there have been the Atletico performance for example where they've looked totally disjointed and you can see that what Alonso is trying to impose on them it's still coming together there are still gaps in the system there are still glitches in the mainframe and this was one of those I think the physicality and the quality of Liverpool it just got in their faces really early on and I'm not going to say they weren't up for it but I think they're still not able to come up with the solutions in real time.

12:09I think if Alonso sends them out and he says, this is going to happen and then it's going to unfold like this and then you do this and you do this, I think they know what they're doing. I think they can live with that. But when the game starts coming for them and they have to come up with solutions on the fly, you can tell that the base level of understanding and cohesion isn't quite there yet. So I think it's still a work in progress. I still really rate Alonso very highly. as a coach and I think they have a again I think they have a lot of potential uh with the players they have it's potentially very exciting what they're doing but it's just it's still not quite there yet just to add I mean I don't know how much of course like when you get these European games me and and I'm sure you might know definitely like uh Johnny and Baz and Max are all watching a lot more European football than than maybe some people who just watch the Premier League are right and so like you have some of the the background going on here that I don't know if everyone who's listening would which is like the stuff with Vinicius Jr in the Glasgow and and the the the apology that managed not to include an apology to Xabi Alonso after the game and there has been some underpinning tension yes they've had some some great performances but there is this feeling to me at least with Real Madrid that Xabi Alonso is still hasn't yet shown that he's got control of this squad and I think that's always the question for Real Madrid managers coming in It's never about is there enough talent here to do something.

13:34It's never about is this squad capable of doing something. It's about how you can manage that. And I think that in general, it's always been the question coming in with Xabi Alonso in general in recent years. The most successful managers have often been those who have been able to be a bit more hands off, who have been willing to let those big personalities and talents express themselves with a bit less control. And the Alonso experiment is fascinating because he isn't like that. He is going to be very much wanting it done his way. And so far, his way has been a bit less generous to Vinicius Junior than the old way was.

14:12It has been more about Kylian Mbappe, who had a disappointing game last night as well. And there's just a bit of tension about exactly what that looks like for Madrid. There's just a bit of, despite all the winning, despite being five points clear in La Liga, is the camp as happy as it could be? and I think that maybe these there are relatively few games in the season where they really get tested and this is one of them and maybe that's also part of the picture of a team not completely rowing in the same direction at the moment Matthew says this referee just unknowingly made himself a hero of the pod with this decision he should get a segment named after him this one is for the purist Max we are back yes this is the fact that the penalty well it was a handball that was given against Chiromene from a Shobhazai shot.

14:58Then the ref had to go to the screen because it was inside the box, not outside the box. And then he decided it wasn't a handball. Mark Clattenburg joined the comms to say he couldn't believe it was overturned, that Chiromene knew what he was doing. He was like 10 centimetres away. Alan Shearer said it should be given. People have lost their minds. This, Johnny, was the best moment of the game. Well, yeah, I mean, I like that the referee had the, I guess the, he felt like he had the autonomy to be able to, so obviously the VAR sent him to the screening. I think this is inside the area. And he's like, oh, I don't think this is a handball.

15:35You know, it's like when, when someone sends you to the shops and to run some errands and you decide to take it upon yourself to, I don't know, get a few, get some salted peanuts and maybe a little can for the train home. It's, it's one of those where I think we've despaired quite a bit about how the handball law has been applied. I think there was another one in the Slavia Arsenal game, which we might come to later. Oh, we will. This felt like common sense. And I do hate that term, but this felt like common sense reigning finally. Yeah. How Klattenberg can say, honestly, that Schumann knows what he's doing.

16:14I mean, he's so close. Anyway, Istvan Kovacs will forever be, whenever there is a good VAR decision, We will sing his name. Tom says, is there a pitch that can contain Mickey van der Ven? Spurs 4, Copenhagen 0. And Barry, Mickey van der Ven scored. It is a ridiculous goal. It is absolutely ludicrous. Now, I think Paulina deserves some credit for the assist, Max. First off the bat, it was him that robbed the ball from Mohamed El-Yanoussi. Gave the ball to Van der Veen and he kind of set off between two defenders at top speed, 0-60, as quick as Wesley Fulfana Lamborghini on the hard shoulder. Skipped around the third defender.

17:02This is all before the halfway line. Then burst. between two more and has a crack from just, I think it was just outside the box or just inside and boom. Yeah. What a goal. And no one saw it coming really. I don't know if he even saw it coming. It was like a cheat code or just this turbocharged upfield. And yeah, he was obviously delighted with himself. Yeah. I mean, it's some finish, you know, after all that way, you have to score this like you just can't you can't not score this i'm trying to think nikki like it it's like what is the best kind of goal i mean this is obviously a ludicrous question but because there's something about the way the crowd like the crescendo with the crowd as every man he passes and you know like it's just building and building to this moment it's just i i wonder if this is the best type of goal or maybe one that comes out of nowhere i don't know i think best type of goal is always going to be very subjective isn't it I've got a soft spot for a volley off the underside of the bar there's something about that satisfying thump of the ball off the underside of the bar that always feels feels good but I mean a coast to coast is is always magic and when it's a centre-back it's it's even better isn't it because um I mean gosh it's a very long time since I played any football let alone 11 a side football but a feeling when you are a defender and you start running and you suddenly see the pitch in front of you is like a bit open you think hang on go somewhere here never ended for me like it did for for um for van de ven let me tell you but um it's uh it's it was a brilliant brilliant goal i i really liked um the way that that joe cole was framing it on um on the the goal show for tnt just said it's why you go to watch a football game and it is right like that that is especially for those of us who watch a lot of football games those moments when someone just takes it onto their own shoulders and does something that's completely outside the frame of what they're trained to do every day, the systems and the structure that are so important to top-level football.

19:10It's just magic, isn't it? And it was a magic goal, would be a magic goal for a centre-forward. But the fact that it is not a centre-forward definitely makes it a bit better. Much of the criticism Thomas Frank has been shipping this season, or since taken over from Spurs, is that they're not entertaining anymore. I don't think Tottenham fans can have any complaints about that match last night because it was very entertaining. I mean, the fourth goal was superb as well, I thought. It looked for a moment like Christian Romero was going to say, hey, I want in on this action. A counter-attack from a Copenhagen corner.

19:48That was a really good goal as well. Just a really fun game, very entertaining. Copenhagen didn't offer much in the way of opposition, but as they say, you can only beat what's in front of you. Yeah, I wonder what Andrew's thinking, seeing Van der Ven and Romero up there. Look, I know it is only Copenhagen, and with all due respect to Copenhagen, Johnny, but there were signs. Javi Simmonds had a good game, Kodam Awani missed some chances, but looked like a good centre forward. I suppose those are the things that, if you're Thomas Frank, will give you hope after, especially the weekend against Chelsea.

20:20Yeah, so I didn't watch the Chelsea game live. I came to it later. So I saw the discourse first. I saw lots of people saying, this is the worst Spurs performance of the season. This is worse than anything they did last season. I saw some people saying it's one of the worst Premier League performances of all time, certainly since they started measuring HD. So I saw all that first and I came to the performance and I actually watched it later. And I thought, well, this is obviously horrifically bad, But it did also feel a little bit like a freak show. Not something, you know, the individual errors, they're just sort of dribbling it into Chelsea players.

21:01It didn't feel like that was representative, certainly of what I'd seen from Spurs this season. So it almost felt like just one of those horror shows where you say, okay, that was a horror show. Let's draw a line under it. Now, Copenhagen are not Chelsea, right? They're struggling in the Danish Superliga. They've been leaking goals. They've been lacking a lot of confidence. They've had a lot of injuries. And Spurs are a streaky sort of team. They're still, again, as we see at this point of the season, there are lots of teams that are still working things out. But that, I think, was a lot more representative of what Frank is trying to do there.

21:42I think there's been a little bit of talk about how Spurs' league position is a little bit false, how the underlying numbers aren't quite matching up to what they're putting up in terms of results in the table. But that is the sort of performance that really just changes the mood and changes the narrative and changes the weather again. And, you know, just in terms of this competition, given the fact that the league table is going to be so tight and so many teams are going to be level on points, you know, a win, you know, a big win like that is just really useful for goal difference. I think you're going to see teams that go out on goal difference or teams that make it through on goal difference.

22:21So again, from that aspect. Okay, that'll do for part one. Part two will begin with Arsenal's win in Prague.

22:34Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Nicky, what more to say about Arsenal? You know, a comfortable win and a clean sheet. I mean, we're running out of things to say and it's the 5th of November. So they need to do something different in the next few months or we're really stuck. Well, I mean, I suppose the only place to go, Max, is after the in-no-way hyperbolic coverage I saw in the last week or so asking if the title race was already over. I suppose the only question to ask now is, is the Champions League already over? It's already over, yes. Because Arsenal won another game without conceding.

23:10There's been some, in my opinion, absolute nonsense that's been happening in the coverage in the last few weeks with people deciding that a season can end in November. But Arsenal are playing very, very solid football at the moment. And I do understand, because I'm a fan myself, I do understand that feeling of when you're a fan of anyone else and you're watching this team that looks like a juggernaut, you're like, just show us something, show us some crack of vulnerability. And right now, Arsenal aren't. I don't think Slavia Prague was ever particularly the place that they were likely to show that crack of vulnerability.

23:46It's not the place that you expect them to go and show some, but they certainly didn't. And I think it's fair to say that there might have been past versions that might have had a different night there. Going away from home, the first little bit of the game was a little bit, they were a little bit slow to come into the game. I think it's an exaggeration to say it was a little bit wobbly because it wasn't really like they gave up any chances in that time particularly. They just didn't immediately sweep their opponents away. They did need, I don't know, I think it is a penalty in the current rules, but a very boring kind of penalty, I suppose, to get the lead in the first half.

24:24But when you're this hard to score a goal against, and they are really stinking hard to score a goal against, it becomes a lot easier to win football matches. And when you've got, I think the other thing that's just big picture, even though everyone is probably bored of hearing about a set piece as well. Another thing that is big picture, definitely a takeaway from this round is Liverpool obviously scored from a set piece against Real Madrid. and when you get into the underlying numbers, you see that actually Real Madrid, I think this is the Athletic I saw in, Real Madrid, if you look how many chances they've given away from set pieces, if they were in the Premier League, they'd be like the third or fourth worst team at giving away chances from set pieces.

25:06So that's something that clearly they've targeted. It's something that clearly Arsenal target in every game and seeing a game like this against a team where you've got some absolute giants. I mean, the centre forward, who's just like towering over all your defenders and going away on a night like that where you think, well, you know where the quality is tilted in this matchup. You know Arsenal are a team that have more quality in absolute terms because the money is with Arsenal. It's just the boring reality of football. But the fact that you go there and you're also the better team at set pieces feels like a shift from where they might've been in the past and in less successful chapters because they're dominating even the parts of the game that the lesser team might in the past to fancy itself of being able to control.

25:50But Arsenal were great. They even got to bring on Max Dahman and have him be the youngest to play in Champions League history. So pretty, pretty great night all around for Arteta and Arsenal really, isn't it? Like we said, just show us something. I mean, you could at least let the opposition have a shot is what I was thinking. Just one, just one shot for one team. One shot a month the opposition get, don't they? They've won 10 in a row now. They've not conceded an eight. They've scored 18 since they last conceded a goal. Yeah, Slavia Prague got a penalty and Arsenal's players were furious. A, because it shouldn't have been a penalty, but they really don't want to concede a goal.

26:27And the penalty was correctly overturned, but they just love keeping clean sheets. And sadly, that'll all come to a sorry end on Saturday when they have to go to Sunderland and Granit Xhaka scores against them. as is written in the stars. I need to say again, even though everyone knows, I think, what he is footballer, it's still great that Mikel Marino scoring two goals again and just being the guy when the guy who's meant to be the guy isn't there, right? He does keep doing it for someone who I think gets probably more flack than he deserves, given it's not like he's shown up there with some ego about himself saying, look, I'm supposed to be this guy.

27:11I think his contribution has still been absolutely brilliant. And exactly as Baz says, the thing that marks great teams apart sometimes is that furious competitiveness and Arsenal have it in absolute buckets, don't they? Yeah. PSG won Bayern 2. Bayern, speaking of teams who are doing quite well, Johnny, have won all 16 of their games in all competitions so far. It doesn't seem far-fetched to say in that first half, because obviously the sending off of Lewis Dias changed things. In the first half, they sort of destroyed PSG, Johnny. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was the performance of the night, to be honest.

27:40And really a performance of, it was almost two great performances, rather than one because yeah they the way they hunted psg uh in the first half and then after the sending off after psg then then pull one back the absolute you know the rear guards the the clearances the clearing of their lines i thought i thought conrad limer at right back who's normally you know normally a midfielder but but at right back was absolutely incredible i thought panacana was fantastic. And, and yeah, I mean, in terms of, in terms of PSG, I, they haven't, you know, they haven't been setting Ligue 1 alight this season, haven't been setting the Champions League alight this season.