Manchester is red and chaos at the Afcon final – Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30them rescuing West Ham for their worst run in 19 years. All the goodwill in the world is surely not enough to save Thomas Frank. Voice note incoming. Meanwhile, poor abandoned Oli Glasner desperately tries but fails to do a Maresca. Wonder what those clear-the-air talks with Steve Parrish on Sunday morning were like. Elsewhere, Liverpool continue their miserable unbeaten run. Liam Rossini gets a lucky first Premier League win and Villa blow the chance to go second. And then to AFCON, just extraordinary. Brian Diaz is presumably still lying in bed staring at the ceiling thinking, why didn't I just do a pressman?

0:59Sadio Mane getting his team back on, Senegal winning it in extra time. Just the kind of wild scenes, no one, brackets, everyone wants to see. All that plus a glorious home goal in Stockport. Your questions, and that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:16On the panel today, Barry Gledenny, welcome. Hi, Max. Hello, John Bruin. Hello there. And good morning, Seb Hutchinson. Hello, Max. Let's start then, a lot of people saying let's start with AFCON. We will get there, but we're going to do the Premier League first and we'll start at Old Trafford. Manchester United 2, Manchester City 0. You were there, John, and it may be a flash in the pan. We don't know, but for Manchester United fans, how liberating just to feel something, anything again. Yeah, it felt like I was alive again. It felt like I was... It doesn't sound like it. Do you want me to express it in some sort of...

1:54You got criticised last week for not being a happy enough Macclesfield fan. We know your tone. We know the Mac tone. Well, I was going to say to you when we express it like Noel Coward or something. You know what I mean? Be yourself. There's always Barry to offer checks and balances, isn't there? Of course. But this time, well, anyway, as I was getting to, I felt alive, Barry. I felt like I was back in my 20s and 30s and Old Trafford felt like that. And I was looking around and I was out in the town after and the celebrations were pretty wild because it was like going back with Fergie's boys. United played like we remembered United playing.

2:40And as Max alluded to, it may be just a one shot deal. They'll go to Arsenal and dig in and not defend very well or they'll play Fulham. And I think the essence was that Michael Carrick asked the players to feed off the crowd and the crowd gave them something to feed off. And on the Stratford end, it was a flag day. Most of the flags were about Manchester City and 1-1-5, which we'll set aside. The City fans played the part as well. I mean, you know, as we think about it, your team is accused of all these things. How do you react? Well, you take the piss back, don't you? and the City fans were giving it back and it was made for an atmosphere.

3:20And I suppose you feed off that atmosphere and that's just what United did. Now, City can say, listen, they had a very, very young defence, Max Alain in particular, Kusinov, but United just went at it like it was. I mean, Ferguson, you probably saw the pictures of him, but it was like those old days where there would be these games where his team had been through a slump and then suddenly they had to pull off a big result against, say, a Chelsea or an Arsenal. And they came through and the crowd went with them. And I did the talking point for the Guardian Digest that we do every Monday. And I talked about Old Trafford.

3:59Now, Bigster Jim's idea is that we knock down Old Trafford and build another super-duper stadium, maybe a little bit like Tottenham's. And I just thought to myself, would Liverpool tear down Anfield? because it's about what that stadium can do. And if you buy into the magic of Manchester United, if you see it as magic, not everyone does. We get a lot of complaints about that type of thing. But if you want to buy into the myth, the legend of Manchester United, why would you sell off that experience? Why would you sell off the Old Trafford experience? And maybe for one day only, Old Trafford was how it can be, how it used to be.

4:37And it was a privilege to be there. Of course, I'm completely biased and it's completely ridiculous for someone who was there as a journalist to say all these things. I admit all that, but come on, it was just brilliant. Especially because all I've heard for about 10 years is how terrible Old Trafford is. But suddenly, if the players are good and run around a bit, the place is amazing. It's the same with West Ham, isn't it? And they're a studio. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

5:06Whoever the next owner of that club might be, their first project is to buy that group of houses in Upton Park and try and reassemble Upton Park and just and this is I think it's I've never bought into this Old Trafford is falling down you know oh yeah yeah it's the antiquity the feel, the place it's like this is home, this is what people come from all around the world to see and maybe it's a bit shabby in the corners and stuff, that stuff can be repaired Liverpool have shown this can be done ok Liverpool fans might point to the fact that hey getting tickets is a bit more difficult and the season tickets are tailing off and stuff like that.

5:45But please retain the essence of what made these football clubs great in the first place. Can you imagine if you just put a football pitch in the middle of the Coliseum? It'd still be amazing, wouldn't it? An amazing atmosphere. I mean, that building's quite old. I think people do go to stadiums for that. I don't think the Wi-Fi is that great in the Coliseum, but that's fine. That's easily solvable. It's not great in Trafford. Yeah, but it's one of the best. As I've said, the older stadiums produce the best atmospheres. I still believe that. They have the best commentary positions as well. I'm speaking, obviously, selfishly.

6:17And Old Trafford is up there for that. I don't want them to move from there, for sure. Just for my own selfish reasons. Barry, is it as simple as just go for at the bat? It was interesting what Carrick did. You know, he brought in Cobby Maino, who obviously hadn't really played at all under Amarim. Harry Maguire started. He's quite fortunate, I guess, that Ahmad and Mbwemore are back. but like it did seem put round pegs in round holes and it'll be fine and you're sort of going why didn't amram do that for 15 months well amram didn't want to do that for 15 months but i think there's more to it a lot more to it than playing five four at the back i mean this was uh an annihilation the scoreline in norway reflects united superiority they hit the woodwork twice at three goals ruled out for offside and Donnarumma was brilliant.

7:07He had to pull off some super saves for City. So they were lucky to get away with a 2-0 defeat. But I have not seen a team ethic or a shift of that magnitude put in by United's players for a very, very long time. And if I can just, you know, checks and balances, Baz, I'm curious to know, John, if any part of you was maybe a little bit annoyed why haven't you played like this for the last 18 months because they've clearly been slacking and not putting in the effort on the evidence of that performance which should now now you're not going to play that well every week but that should be the very minimum that's expected now from now on because just watching these United players just you know five or six red shirts charging forward on the counters attack I can't remember the last time I've seen that and then that first goal in particular for now you know counter attacks you can find odd players on the ball because it just happens to break to them or bounce their way but Fernandes is really the guy you want on the ball when you've got that four on two or three on two whatever it was yeah I'd be if I was a United fan I'd be absolutely delighted with that performance I'd be full of optimism but I'd also be going hang on why haven't you played anywhere near that well for like over a year over a year is generous Barry uh over 13 years yeah I mean it's there was a reason Ruben Amaroom got a job in the first place because the previous lot played much like that as well I mean I subscribe almost to the the great man theory when it comes to to big clubs now you can have a a medium-sized club or sport club in case of Brentford or someone like that, that has this structure where the manager might not be the most important person in the club.

9:04But it's felt like at United that drag between various sporting directors and Big Sir Jim and the players has meant a manager is an isolated figure that can't deliver something. It almost certainly will not last, but Carrick is an insider figure that can talk about what the club is and what it can do, how long that message lasts I don't know but he was able to channel something within the club that makes these players look around and think when I came to this club everyone was supposed to be really good at this place and it's been great for all these years yet we're rubbish and Carrick was able to point them in that direction and show how you can do this it's not sustainable we do know that Manchester United is in great need of modernity and all the rest of it but yeah for one day only just just make those players and fans feel and then you've got something to build on and we've seen it before we remember when kenny dargleish went back to liverpool 15 years ago and he made liverpool feel like liverpool again and it didn't work out in the end but it it formed the revival of liverpool from that point and maybe that's what we're looking at with michael carrick yeah i mean i'm skeptical about dna i think all football clubs we just want to believe that exists there but i guess that i guess that if you bring back somebody who is a legend at the club it just it gives everyone a lift i mean i was saying before we went on and we'll get to spurs i wouldn't mind harry ridknapp like i really wouldn't just because like you know carrot comes in and everybody everybody there is willing him to do well and you know the and and that doesn't mean he'll do you know i can so see a social situation happening where they're good good enough for long enough that they give him the job and then it doesn't work out.

10:51But it's actually not a stupid idea because everybody is on the same side suddenly. Certainly in the short term. I mean, history's told us when this happens, there is a boost. Because supporters, when a manager's hired, and let's use Nottingham Forest as an example, this season, Nuno Wynn, Ajposta Kokulu came in. The supporters were immediately on the back foot, immediately feeling, we don't want this man or he has a connection that's failed elsewhere we have no interest Sean Dyche comes in player with a connection to the club speaks highly of the club speaks about his history at the club and it gives that man in this particular instance time think of Arteta and his connection with Arsenal which probably kept him in the job longer than it did near the start of that particular tenure ultimately it's down to results isn't it over time it's down to results but it does help massively.

11:46And whether it worked for Tottenham is a completely another matter because they fit into a different category for football clubs when it comes to these sort of things. But I do... No, you're right. I do think it does help. And I think it's easy for owners as well. It's an easy thing for them. I think, how do we get the supporters off our back for a bit? Let's just hire somebody with a big connection to the club and let's tick that box because they can always turn back and say, we did this and it didn't work. So what do you want from us type feeling? it was incredible from that point of view because I think instantly when you have Karik who's always been there before and he'd had the three games before on his first time in charge I think he did beat Arsenal in that period as well.

12:24Yeah he did yeah. And that big victory it just helps and it sets the club going and Manchester United have only have the Premier League to focus on now so it's going to be a case of if they get into the Champions League it's considered a good season essentially and let's see what happens from there. It was interesting afterwards, listening to Carrick talk and he's a very calm speaker, but he made quite an interesting point, which was he's actually got season tickets at Manchester United and takes his kids. And so he was saying, oh yeah, I've seen quite a lot of the team and I knew what to... And so he's obviously been sat in a stand saying, don't play three at the back, you know.

13:00Free Cobby, now you know. I suppose the other thing is the noise is off. I mean, I don't know if you were going to get to this, but the, you know, that Lissandro Martinez kicking back at Scholes and Nicky Butt and all this. And I suppose the one person in the stadium of a Manchester United leanings that wasn't happy would be Roy Keane. It ended up with this huge debate with him and Daniel Sturridge over whether this is going to work and what's it for. And I suppose that's the issue we've talked about so many times with Manchester United. Whatever happens, they're discussed. I can't even say the word, punditocracy.

13:34Is that what we're calling them? yeah yeah you can call them that media class media well are they media class his ex-pros aren't they we're media class lower media class class media yeah i look down on him because he is lower media class and it is worth saying that you know dalot should have been sent off and maybe the game is yeah yeah and it's astonishing that var didn't see that we will uh get on to you know there is plenty of time in the next few weeks to talk about man city but we will move on to uh uh spurs i was just thinking who do they bring in yeah is it harry read up is it chas or dave i forget which one is still around um neil says dr tottenham is an unfair moniker they don't just heal at this point they can raise the dead um the latest from david heitner is that thomas frank oversaw training at spurs on sunday and maintained a business as usual front before the champions league game against borussia dormann on tuesday night despite the uncertainty that's raging over his future situation is precarious the directors have been reluctant to fire him they're mindful of the problems he has faced not all of them being his own making during what was always like to be a transitional season uh david ornstein saying that you know some of the board want him to go i mean if he gets the sack probably after we finish recording most likely can he have any complaints perry i don't think so no and the thing about thomas frank is he seems to be widely liked because he appears to be a very very nice man but that'll only get you so far results haven't been good enough performances aren't good enough the style of play is at times extremely painful to watch I think what coaches and players and journalists to an extent a lesser extent often forget is that fans pay a lot of good money to go to watch their teams play and I think a season ticket at Spurs you're not getting much change out of 900 quid minimum and that's a lot of money so you at least want to be entertained because it's supposed to be fun Spurs have this reputation for being an attractive team to watch if not a particularly successful one and he hasn't delivered on any front and he seems confident that he can turn things around he's using the oil tanker analogy which i'm not sure is the cleverest one to pull out but uh he has lost the fans they have no faith in him they don't like him they boo him with just relentless monotony now.

16:19It's just a thing they do. Let's boo Thomas Frank. And I don't see how he can come back from that. I do think you will definitely be in voice note territory, if not today, certainly Thursday at the latest. And I think when it comes down to, oh, we'll give him the Dortmund game, we'll give him the next two games, just get rid, put him out of his misery, rather than, it's like you're in a relationship that's gone sour and, oh, we'll go on a holiday. We'll buy a dog. You know, just end it. It's over. Yeah, I suppose, sorry, Baz. I suppose, you know, the Dr. Tottenham thing is objectively hilarious.

16:59Bournemouth hadn't won in 11. West Ham were winless in 10. Spurs go to Turf Moor next. Burnie haven't won in 13. I mean, it's so extraordinary that they could lose that one. But my understanding is that that he's lost some of the players as well, which is, you know, you lose the fans and the players, you don't really have anything. And there is no discernible style. What are they trying to do? It's not clear. I feel like with the Thomas Frank situation, it's that case of he's sticking to his guns. He believes deep down that he'll come through. But I suppose in another way, there's no other way for him to explain this because he's not in a position where some of the other managers we're going to go on to talk about are in, where they're looking above, you're not supporting me, you're not backing me, because he's just come in and he's got nothing behind him to fall back on in that respect.

17:46It's just been the most miserable few weeks for him from a manager's point of view, not only with the results on the pitch, the issue with the Arsenal Cup, while it's not his fault, it is still, it just looks so bad on so many levels. And because he's such a candid guy and he's so honest and earnest and people quite like him as an individual, that from the outside, it also feels, you feel for him as well. But ultimately, from a Tottenham point of view, he has to, I think this result is a particularly bad one because we're speaking about Dr. Tottenham, but West Ham haven't had anything like this this season.

18:23Maybe when they won at Forest, that's one. But the rest of their season has been so miserable. I mean, I did West Ham last week and then losing at home to Forest and you're thinking they are down. And to pull this result out, and we're going to be, of course, We didn't speak about City before, but because obviously we spoke a lot about Manchester United, we do have to speak about the teams on the other foot in this particular weekend, because I think credit to West Ham in a game like this, because I saw when Somerville scored, he's running to the bench. They're having to dig deep. They know this is the only way they're going to get out of this.

18:58We're going to talk about Everton. We're going to talk about Forrest in this respect. And on this particular weekend, it's a reminder that in the Premier League, there are teams that can trip you up all the time, whether they're in the bottom three or not. And that needs to be remembered, especially when sides have injuries. And Tottenham have added to that in this course the last week or so. It cannot take away from that. And while I think this is probably a result too far for him in this particular situation, normally the overreaction, we do have to obviously take it on a game-by-game basis.

19:29Yeah, I mean, that is true, that West Ham John looked really good. And I just don't know if suddenly they decided to be good or just Tottenham can make anyone look this good? I think it could be a bit of both, don't you? Maybe Nuno. I think West Ham fans in particular have written off Nuno, but I think he's quite a capable manager and has got teams out of this position before, did it at the Forest. So I wouldn't rule West Ham out of at least giving themselves some hope. When we talk about Tottenham, I always think it's quite amusing when things like this happen. I saw some Tottenham fans wishing that Daniel Levy was still around because at least Daniel would have got the job done and got rid of Thomas Frank by now.

20:12And I suppose that is something to do with perhaps Thomas Frank is a victim of himself that, again, we've got that organisational drag, haven't we, because Daniel Levy went and we knew the club was all about what Daniel Levy wanted. Now we've got the ownership, the Lewis family, and then and the other guy Vinay who quite a lot of excitement because he was at the training ground on Sunday which obviously people think well it's it's voice note time when that happens but of course Vinay who's he associated with? Well Arsenal and yeah it's it all feeds into this self-loathing that seems to rule at Tottenham at the moment Johnny Heisinger has been brought in as an assistant which apparently Thomas Fank wanted thing is Barry you know he doesn't have a history with you know if Frank goes and they put Heysinger in charge it won't be like Carrick at Man United there'll be just another guy they go well he didn't do that well at Ajax you know so why don't they get Harry Redknapp you were fighting it you won Harry Redknapp and Robbie Keane don't you what's Alan Nielsen up to you know Mason Ryan Mason he's in Dubai probably after West Brom isn't he so as soon as he comes out back from that you that maybe he's about.

21:27I mean, at this stage, the only reason I can see to keep Frank on is that come the summer, when the World Cup ends, there'll be loads of managerial changes and churn, and it would probably be the best time to get one, see who's knocking around. Maybe get Potch back, who knows? Yeah, an interim manager seems to be, they're in vogue now, aren't they? So I'd have no objections to Harry Redknapp coming back and I'm sure Harry wouldn't either. Yeah, it would be interesting to see what happens. It will and Oli Glasner currently the favourite for the Tottenham job despite the fact that Palace had cleared the air talks with Steve Parrish on Sunday morning and we will talk about his outburst at the top of part two.

22:19Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. Phil says has any top flight club ever had a more catastrophic week than the one in just endured by crystal palace the greatest fa cup upset of all time mark gay going to city glasner confirming he's leaving at the end of the season he didn't make any substitutions in this game despite the fact that palace looked completely knackered and the quotes after were sort of incredible i feel we're being abandoned completely i can't play many players they did everything they could and this has been going on for weeks and months now we have 12 13 players from the squad available we feel no support the worst thing is selling our captain one day before playing a Premier League game.

22:53I've always kept my mouth shut, but I can't because I have to defend these players because it was the 35th game today. If you get your heart torn out twice this season, one day before a game, it was with Eze in the summer. It was with Gaye now. What should I tell the players all the time? What should I tell them? And then I see the performance today for 50, 60 minutes. It was not easy with all the circumstances going here with 12 players from the squad. And then on Sunday, he rang up Steve Parrish or Steve rang him up and he went, oh, it's okay. Do you think, Seb, it's kind of because we all presume that it's untenable now.

23:23But do you think Steve Paris is like spite keeping him there? How is this going to be for the next few months? Well, that's tricky, isn't it? I think people were speaking from the outside, looking at Palace. They can't keep this up because the squad is so thin. Obviously, they haven't got a big enough squad to cope with the competitions that they're in. And now, when I think back that they were on this decent unbeaten run at home and then they lost at home to Manchester United. I mean, since then, they haven't won at home. I think their last home win was early November. It's not been creeping, but it feels like they've fallen off the edge of a cliff, essentially.

23:58Everything going wrong that a manager could think of. And he is highly touted, which goes back to what I was saying before. The difference between him and Frank is he's got so much to work with Glasgow from the point of view. He's somebody who's won Palace, that huge trophy. He's a player who's been coveted, a manager who's been coveted from elsewhere. He's in a strong position that a manager can be at a club. at this moment in time of course if you keep losing games then people lose faith in you even if your squad is weak and I think the FA Cup win was an example of that even if Palace had put out some of their academy players and you know they should have put in a better performance and he even admitted that himself so it was coming when the manager does though whoever they are start to criticize the club as a whole you you know they're walking I don't understand the clear the air talks because we know he's leaving.

24:48We know he's not going to carry on after this summer. Whether he leaves now, it suits him because, you know, the time he's got left on his contract, if he just almost forces them to leave, they have to come up with a reason to let him go. Him criticising the hierarchy is a good reason to let him go, obviously, but they might come to an agreement. From his point of view, he's thinking, what positions are there for me to take, for me to move on? You mentioned Tottenham. Most people in any job they're in, they're only as good as their options. people suffer in the work that they do because they feel, you know, I have to get paid.

25:21I need this money, but could I go elsewhere? Do I have options elsewhere? And he has options elsewhere at this moment. That might change as things drag on. I feel they're probably going to come to a decision before the end of the season to resolve this one way or another and announce it publicly, what he's going to do again. But football turns. I mean, look at Mark Gahey's situation. I felt that in my head I thought well he'll have the choice of the world come the summer but then he's thrown a contract and a situation where he thinks actually Palace feels like the Crystal Palace is burning and I have to get out now and maybe win a trophy with City before the season ends and then that becomes a good move for him that all happening and everyone fleeing suggests that he won't be the only one to leave in the near future Yeah, Mateta rumoured to go to Juve I mean, what should Crystal Palace fans feel, Barry?

26:16Because, you know, this ownership won them the FA Cup. I'm like, Glasner did it, but Steve Parrish has done a brilliant job at Crystal Palace. You know, is it, and you know, is this calculated from Glasner? Like, he's trying to get the sack, at least he was until this chat on Sunday. Yeah, I think it was very obvious he wanted to be fired. We've seen it with Nuno Wolves, Maresca, Chelsea, Amarim at Manchester United, They all criticised the hierarchy. They all got the bullet. I'm sure Glasner noticed that as well. He also has forum for doing this at other clubs. If I was a Palace fan, I'd be pissed off, obviously, because they've lost, as a gaze gone, they might lose Mateta.

27:03One presumes other players in the dressing room, Ismail Assar, Maxence Lacroix other big name good players they'll want out as well I think Glasner was slightly disingenuous with his comments, he made out that he had nothing on his bench but kids that's not true he had three internationals, only one of the players was under the age of 20 only one of the subs, so he could have brought on players if he wished to, I think it was one of those statements you know i have no one to bring on i want new players but uh if he wants to be sacked why does he care whether he gets new players or not palace are in a difficult position as far as i know he didn't actually speak to steve parish on sunday he spoke to palace's director of football whoever that is but one imagines that the director of football was uh speaking on parish's behalf staff um are peddling the parish line at the very least but uh look if i was a palace fan i'd be fed up but i i wouldn't well i i don't get upset about these things anyway so i can't speak for palace fans yes the director of football on the line steve parish is there on speakerphone going keep him on the line for one more minute and then we can find out where he is we can triangulate where he's hiding.

28:27I mean, speaking of new players, spare a thought for Brennan Johnson going from one bin fire to another. And just quickly, because, you know, as Seb said, we should mention the other teams. As far as Sunderland concerned, John, what a brilliant finish from Brian. Broby, broby, broby. It's such a great goal, isn't it? It was fantastic. And the celebration was unique. The cramp celebration and the enjoyment his teammates got in forcing out the cramp in that way. It reminded me of the 1987 FA Cup final or something, where the players go down with cramp. That's the way to do it. But yeah, this was the summer of the...

29:10Last summer was the summer of the number nines, and Brobby was one of those who crept in under the radar a little bit. I'd seen him play at Ajax. I wasn't too impressed, but I have to say he's completely exceeded my expectations. He's not quite on Igor Tiago levels, but he's been very, very good. Well done, Sunderland, for yet another good deal. Their transfer business this summer was excellent. And let's garland Sunderland with praise because they really do deserve it for this season. Although at both times I've seen them, they've been absolutely rubbish. So I don't know what it is. Can we just add that Sunderland got through AFCON brilliantly?

29:49yes amazing when you think about it they could have crumbled and now they have those players back so you know they'll push on from here I think yeah they did better than Morocco but we'll get to that Chelsea Chelsea 2 Brentford 0 it's interesting Seb you know we're talking about luck that a manager needs and you know Carrick gets a bit of luck because Dallow's not sent off Thomas Frank has no luck doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to go Rosinia wins his first Premier League game but it's a game where they could easily have lost I mean there are so many amazing misses in this game and Brentford had so many chances and sometimes you know you can be good you have to be good you have to be know what you're doing but luck is such a key part of life and and it looked like he got it on the weekend yeah when you when you watch the the highlights of that game the number of chances that Brentford had are an incredible situation but managers we know that every game they're under this pressure of the result dictating their whole week and from Liam's point of view in the midweek, obviously facing Arsenal, there was something he could take out of that game.

30:54He was missing so many players, even though Chelsea have a lot of players. That was an interesting situation in the League Cup final. I looked at their bench and thought, well, they still have quite a lot of senior pros who can come on here and do something and Garn actually was one of those in the end. In a game like this, he just needed to, in front of the Chelsea supporters, come out and just win the game, I think, just to start because it's too soon to maybe see him implement a style per se on the side. But he does need to hit the ground running because of the club he's at, because of the competitions he's in, and to have his first four games in four different competitions, I think that helps him actually.

31:34Because if he'd had four Premier League games and had a scratchy start, he might have been in a lot of trouble. But because there's cup matches in there, and cup matches which he can afford to lose a couple of them because they don't really affect the ultimate destination. You know, he could still go to the Emirates and win that game. You know, in the Champions League, they could still be in a position where they can, well, they're still in a position where they can carry on. So these things are, in many ways, just helpful for him. And in a game like this against a side who are in a really good run of form, it's a good result.