Palace pull off Liverpool hat-trick, plus the Premier League previewed: Football Weekly Extra

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30their luck early on before beating Brighton another clean sheet for Mikel Arteta. Chelsea win a not quite classic 4-3 at Wolves while holders Newcastle comfortably see off Spurs. Thomas Frank's next job is to get Spurs up for Chelsea at home in a game they routinely lose. Elsewhere, Man City Bournemouth looks interesting as does Forest, Manchester United and Liverpool Villa. Ewan Murray joins us to discuss the Celtic madness and we'll discuss whether there should be a countdown clock for long throws. We've had excellent correspondence including some divorced Belgian adjacent stuff. As always, we'll answer your questions and that's today's Guardian Football Week.

0:59Cleve.

1:06on the panel today barry glendennig welcome hi max hello jordan jared bryan morning mate and good morning to robin cowan morning max okay the quarterfinal draw then newcastle play fulham manchester city brentford cardiff city chelsea and arsenal crystal palace only one place to start which is at anfield steve says as a liverpool fan i made the decision to watched last night's Bake Off instead. Traitor starts in a minute. Was this a better use of my time or should I have jumped out the window, he says. Toddy says, should Liverpool sign Ismail Assar just to stop him scoring against them? Seven and nine for Assar against Liverpool, for Palace and for Watford.

1:42And I suppose we should start Robin by praising Crystal Palace. Third time in a row they've beaten Liverpool if you include the Community Shield, which I guess we can. Assar's second was a beautiful goal. That one too with Jeremy Pino, who looks like a really good player. And Palace hadn't been on great form either. But clearly, as soon as you saw the starting lineups, you were like, they'll probably win. Yeah, I mean, I think we need to, we should credit Palace. Because even though, yes, you know, Liverpool obviously rotated a lot and didn't really have any big names on the bench either. They still had to get the job done.

2:14It's still a land field and they dispatched them really well. They also made quite a lot of changes as well, Crystal Palace. But actually, it's just a show of they don't have amazing depth in sort of Premier League terms. But still, you know, you had Will Hughes coming in. He hasn't played much this season. You know, he's a very, very good midfielder. Sosa as well. So actually, you know, they're just a very, very well coached team. And clearly they, I mean, Liverpool kind of had a couple of chances early on, didn't they? But then it just seems to be they concede and then they kind of, I wouldn't say fall apart.

2:47That might be a bit too dramatic, but they kind of floodgates open and they just seem to be a bit soft at the moment. Again, with the massive caveat that they clearly change the team a lot. And yeah, the discourse around this is very interesting, isn't it? And I think, yeah, you said in your intro, did he do it on purpose? And I'm just thinking if he did, then fine. you know is that is that a bad thing because actually if if they'd put out the strong team and they lost that possibly would have caused more damage sure and i suppose no guarantees that had they put out their first team they'd have won this game given given the form that they're on with apologies to palace the story is liverpool barry isn't it and look they started three teenagers they had five others on the bench and so it was such an inexperienced side and so it's hard to gauge, is this a totally disconnected performance from the crisis elsewhere?

3:40And should we compartmentalise it in the Carabao box that we can't find? Or does this, you know, it's not totally unconnected, surely? I think it is. I don't think it's in any way related to the current slump in form. Maybe if they hadn't lost four Premier League games in a row and were on a winning streak, he would have fielded a stronger team but I totally get why Slott rested all the players the senior players because before this four of or five of Liverpool's last six games were away from home London Istanbul London Frankfurt London he's given rest of the players people are saying oh but he should have had them on the bench so that they could come on if things went sideways as they did but if you have them on the bench then you're not resting them you're not giving them a day off if you're a line keeper in the zoo and you're working really hard and you get a day off but you have to come in and supervise the understudy line keeper and be on hand in case he gets mauled by lines and you have to step in and take over, that's not a day off is it?

4:47It's not a rest because you still have to turn up, you still have to go through all the motions so I think it was a wise move to rest all those players give them the day off I don't think it really matters that they got knocked out of this competition he has done this before and but as soon as you saw the lineups you thought yeah they're going to lose this it'll be quite a feat if they don't and they duly did go and lose it but as Robin said they started quite well and then Everton went to hell in a handker very quickly just before half time. I like how matter of fact you presume you know that's what the supervisor at the zoo often has to do it's just oh no another one another one's been mauled another teenager didn't understand i'll just go in again just doesn't clean up this mess god's sake someone tell the family they have to do the subs is it like a sort of similar subs warm-up they have to do it's like kind of very half-hearted uh do i go he hasn't even got his khaki jacket on.

5:52He's not ready. This is a total disgrace. Where do you stand on this, Jordan? Do you agree with Barry? Or are we sort of wider on the... We just don't know until Villa and... Villa, Real Madrid, both at home and then Man City away. That is a tricky set of fixtures. And I suppose it's after them you decide, well, he was smart to rest players or not. Yeah, I don't have an issue with him playing a weakened team. I think he tried something different. I agree. there's no point having the big boys on the bench because then, as Barry says, they're not technically being rested then. I'm not sure if it's an issue of being rested though.

6:27I just think it's an issue of just bad form and him working out what their best 11 needs to be. I mean, I'm as one of the few idiots that still, until yesterday, still believed that they are not out of the title race because my mentality, my thinking would have been this from Liverpool. Arsenal in terms of the league haven't shown they can put together 10, 11, 12, winning games when it matters. if we can get to January with a gap no more than eight, nine points max bring in a couple of centre-backs make some really brutal but decisive selection decisions you never know but I know and I get that League and Cup are very different competitions but watching last night's game they got smashed they got absolutely battered last night and I think even though they're out the cup as you mentioned the next three games Villa, Real Madrid and Manchester City if they lose all three of those games and they could lose all three of those games you're then into the kind of territory that man city were in last season where i think it was nine defeats and 11 when it when it when it was at their worst and then you're looking at a really really poor not only poor title defense but you're then kind of dragged into a top four race and to go from premier league champions to be in a top four race i think is a really really bad look so i don't think getting knocked out of the cup on its own is a particularly big deal i just think it's the accumulation of games that that they could lose, which could really be bad for their season.

7:50Just a quick note on Palace. Some of their goals were really good. They played some really good football. Their second and third goals, I thought were just beautiful football. And I just wonder if Glasner wants that Liverpool job. That's three wins now against Liverpool in 12 games and three different stadiums. I wonder if he's got his eye on, you know what, next season, I wonder if I could be in that hot seat at Anfield. Do you think if he didn't want the Liverpool job, he wouldn't have tried to win? Well, no, no, I don't. Of course they'll travel with the game the same way, but I just find it funny that he's beaten them three times on three different grounds within 10, 11 games.

8:24Just on the age of the bench, the sizzler says, has there ever been a higher total of squad numbers than Liverpool's bench tonight? Nine substitutes. I've added up all the squad numbers together. Would anybody like to hazard a guess? What's the number of nine substitutes? I'd say around 600. 583. Very good, Barry. yeah Arna Slott said look I saw City's 11 they didn't have one starter from the weekend but it felt like their best 11 like 10 changes and City like it's true City do have depth that's a bit of an insight Chelsea can bring in Estival after I made two substitutions tonight we had six teenagers but I thought Liverpool had loads of depth I mean he just didn't that answer Robin is odd because he didn't he could have selected more experienced players he just didn't select more experienced players and the interesting question is they play Villa right and we'll sort of mix the Carabao Cup stuff with the Premier League preview Villa are on a really good run.

9:17And so you've got these three games for Liverpool and there would be no shame in losing any one of those games, right? Losing to Villa, who are playing well, or losing to Real Madrid, or losing to City. You could lose all three. And I suppose the question is about the pressure on slot. How much does winning the league, surely that buys you some time. That's not easy to do. I mean, you'd think so, but it seems like actually some are thinking, well, no, he's already kind of bust his flush. It is ridiculous. I think the only thing I'd say is he's starting to come out with some slightly strange, not strange, but like comments that can be made a joke of like, oh, you know, teams are changing their style against us.

9:55It's like, well, well, yeah, they'll do that because you're good. And that's what people, that's what teams do to try and win games. But no, he's got he's got a huge amount of time. I just think last season there was very little adversity for him. apart from like you know there was some injuries and also the Salah situation was you know a lot of noise around that he's now lost I just wonder if there's first of all too many maybe one too many changes to the squad in terms of like you know let's give him some time to try and see because it if it if it clicks you feel like it will really click you know they've got so much talent in that squad but you know they lost Alexander-Arnold, Darwin Nunes I know you know wasn't you know contributing loads but then Diaz, Elliott it's just a lot of turnover isn't it and And the other thing is, again, we need to say he's dealing with the biggest bit of adversity that you can in grief with, you know, Diogo Jota.

10:44So I just think it's a very unique situation he finds himself in. But as we know, as Jordan just said, they lose these next three games. Then, yes, of course, the pressure is going to come on him. How do you think the Villa game will go, Barry? I don't know is the answer, but I do know Villa's record at Anfield is atrocious. Villa's record against reigning champions away from home is atrocious but they are on a run of four wins in a row in the Premier League and Liverpool are on a run of four defeats in a row so I don't know how it'll go, I haven't a clue but Villa do have a terrible record at Anfield, recent record anyway.

11:27I suppose since the last since Matty Cash did that amazing pass and then that great goal with his right foot and left foot and he said the money should be on some sort of extraordinary headed winner for Matty Cash or something like that. So that's Liverpool Villa. Palace played Brentford there into the quarterfinals as well after a 5-0 win at Grimsby. If you watch the highlights, it just looked like one team were just much better than the other one. And they were. Brentford won 4-5. Palace hadn't won in four before that Grimsby game. Chelsea won 4-3 at Wolves. This, Robin, was a fun game. It needed to go 3-3, then 4-3 to be a classic.

12:00But it was still like Wolves made it fun after looking, after sort of wilting in the first half. I mean, a dreadful defending. I think this is the problem with Wolves, actually. They look like they can score, you know, and they showed that against Burnley as well. You know, the last game where, you know, they possibly should have settled for a point. They probably felt like they couldn't and then they kind of got caught and they lost. But no, just very, or just bad defensively. But I saw a post from Steve Madeley at The Athletic who said it was a bizarre build up to the game at Molyneux. 11 changes, including four centre backs and two wing backs now for Wolves.

12:37And then he said there was also a light and dance show to build up the atmosphere, which was not, which he says was very much at odds with the prevailing mood. You just think a Carabao Cup game when you're on a crap run and you decide to pop on a light show. Yeah, I mean, that's, I'd say I'd question that. It would have to be such a good light show, wouldn't it? It would have to be bloody brilliant, like Coldplay. To get to turn Michelle Jar. To turn people around. People are like, I don't want this shit. And then suddenly go, well, actually, hang on a sec. Hang on, Dave, this is something else, you know.

13:10I'm up for this Caraval Cup now. Then when they end the light show for kickoff, the crowds start booing. More light show, please. Leave en masse, yeah. I mean, the highlight of this game, I guess, Barry, was the Jamie Gittins goal. Owen says actually, granted no one likes a snitch, but Max, I need to report that Chelsea's official account has referred to Gittins goal as a volley. Categorically a half volley, but he hit that beautifully. Well, it wasn't a half volley. So we've had this debate before because it had bounced up quite high. That is not a half volley. I need to watch it again. You carry on.

13:43Yeah, so for a half volley, ball has to be still in contact with ground in my opinion. It certainly wasn't, but it was a brilliant strike off the outside of his right boot fizz past the keeper i'll be honest my favorite goal here and there's i'm just the world of football journalism is swamped at the moment with articles about the return of the long throw tony pulis wrote a i think a column for the bbc in you know needless to say i had the last laugh column what a prescient signing that was to get Pulis in. Well done. He went full partridge. People used to call me a dinosaur, eh? But anyway, my favourite goal was, so it was a Mosquero long throw, and then, like a stone being skimmed across the lake, the ball just went from one head to another head to another head, and then dropped for David Mahler-Wolfa at the far post, and he spanked home.

14:46I prefer that goal to Gittins. I'm prepared to concede Gittins was the more difficult strike and the more visually, aesthetically pleasing. But for me the long throw that skimmed across the lake was the better goal. On the technicality Gittins, it's bounced a couple of times but he hits it right on a bounce so it's still in the half volley bracket for me. Did anybody get like C-save vibes against Chelsea? Remember that goal at Sanford Bridge? Oh, a little bit, yeah. It's the other corner, but I know what you mean, yeah. It's the other corner, yeah. It reminded me of that goal. I loved it. I loved that technique because it was amazing.

15:25My only takeaway from this game was, how stupid is the lap? If I'm the manager, I'm raging. He was. He says, look, he called it stupid and completely deserved. He said, after the yellow card, I told him four or five times to keep calm. But Liam is a player that when he's inside the pitch, probably he'll be playing the game for himself and he struggles to realise and to listen around him, which I guess is quite damning if you'll manage to say he's selfish and stupid, isn't he? Yeah, he's a thicker. Yeah. Basically. I mean, the second yellow card could have argued been a red card in and of itself.

16:01I agree. I think both of them could have been, actually. Yeah, yeah. It's so... I'd be... Yeah, I mean, he was livid from those quotes there, Max, but you're short up front with the personnel as it is. You're on a bit of a weird run generally. the last thing you need is a player you've been waiting to come back to now get himself suspended for is it one or three I think it's one he's suspended for the Spurs game on Saturday so let's look ahead to that after we've done Spurs defeat at Newcastle you tweeted yesterday Barry or you blue sky you woke libtard Jed Spence tying his laces is being discussed at great and tedious lengths by adults on Sky tune in to the Guardian for weekly tomorrow where he'll almost certainly be discussed at even more tedious lengths by other adults yeah i mean it was i mean it's the story of the first guy i mean newcastle deserved this i'd watched it spurs were pretty average i thought even if the stats said they had more shots than shots on target late in the game they got some saves out of ramsdale but the first goal which is always important was basically down to jed spence tying his shoelaces for what felt like 25 minutes well i'm not sure it was but that's the narrative afterwards.

17:11Newcastle had a corner. Sandro Tonali was waiting to take it and about five yards away from him, Jed Spence, who had lost his boot while challenging for the ball in the build-up to the corner, was tying his shoelace. I don't know if Jed Spence just isn't very good at tying his shoelaces, but it doesn't take me that long to tie a shoelace, put it that way. and I wouldn't say I'm brilliant at it but how brilliant would you say what's your world ranking I don't know I haven't a clue so he was kneeling down taking an age to tie his shoelace I think it took him over a minute and then he stood up and just did he even jog a slow jog an amble back towards the mixer and while he was mid-amble, Tonali got the signal to take the corner, sent it in.

18:13Fabian Scharr rose highest above Bergvall and thumbed home a header. Now, I don't know if the presence of Jed Spence on the edge of that six-yard box or in that penalty area would have made any difference, but the fact of the matter is he wasn't there. Loads of Tottenham players complained to the referee, Chris Kavanagh. After the game, Thomas Frank said, I have spoken to Chris about it and we will keep that between Chris and I. Now I really want to know what was said. He's made what I'm certain was a very banal conversation between him and Chris Kavanagh sound incredibly interesting. Sound like Frost Nixon.

18:55A bit of insight, actually. Thomas Frank goes to speak to the referee after every single game, no matter what happens. so he's quite late to interviews post-match. In a way, that's good because it's annoying when you get feedback from a boss when you haven't heard from them for like 25 years and they go, I hated that bit you did. And you go, well, what about all the good bits I've done? I'm wondering who you could be talking about, Max. Max, you are speaking my language. When you get that, when you see your phone, you think, oh, no, it's never good news. Never good news. It's never good. But if Thomas Franco always goes in.

19:29Every single time. Unless he always says they've been shit. at least he's building up that. He's building up. That's good management, if you ask me. Not a lot to make out of this game. Matt Voltamada scored another header. It was bad goalkeeping. But Spurs-Chelsea now is a really big game, Jordan, for both these teams, actually. Well, if Guardian listeners remember, I actually had Tottenham finish third in my predicted standings this season. Yeah. And I'm an Arsenal fan, so this is not something I want to happen. I think from Tottenham's point of view, if they have ambitions on trying to get a Champions League spot, I think they have to take advantage of beating a Chelsea team that, as I mentioned earlier on, have been a little bit up and down all over the place.

20:12Don't have any particularly great forwards in particularly good form at the moment as well. And I think it's an opportunity for Spurs to really assert themselves as one of those key Champions League chasing sides. For Chelsea, yeah, I mean, those that did say at the start of the season, they were in the title race. This is the sort of game they need to win if they do have any lingering feelings of being in that race. I think it would end up a draw, which I don't think is the worst result for either side. There is a sense of disquiet at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, Robin. I guess because most of Spurs' points have come away from home.

20:45But, you know, you go to all the home games, you're sort of a bit sad to see another disappointing defeat. But I feel like they're attacking, the attackers they brought in, none of them have really, kudos aside, none of them have really clicked, I think. Yeah, it's a tricky one, isn't it? Because clearly the Premier League season last year was a total disaster, wasn't it? And you've got to think that actually with this new era and, you know, Tony Pulis being brought back to do columns for the BBC, that Thomas Frank is the perfect custodian for this, really. Yeah, I get your point. I think it's the feeling is very much if you're a season ticket holder and you're not so good at home and better away.

21:26I think it gets amplified, definitely. And maybe they haven't been so good, but beat Chelsea. Is this at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium? Yeah. Because this was the scene of that absolutely mental game. The high line. Yes, yeah. The amazing nine men high line. You'll never see anything like that again. Two years ago? Yeah. That was when the wheels fell off, actually. That was actually the wheels completely falling off the Andres at Spurs. Newcastle obviously beats Spurs. Go to West Ham. Is that on Sunday, Robin? Yes, I'll be there. You should know. You're going. Do you think you'll be the only person left in the stadium?

22:01Well, I might be the only one left in the stands. I'm just thinking, is there set to be another mutiny? Do you remember that one a few years ago when West Ham, was it at Benz Burnley? And Mark Noble was kind of there, you know, trying to calm things down. and he might have to come down because he's a sporting director now. So I'm just thinking, yeah, this could be a real, I mean, shit show basically, couldn't it? It's just been terrible, haven't they? Newcastle haven't won away from home this season. I think that might change. That's all I'm going to say on Sunday. Yeah, Nuno does need to start winning games.

22:37Brendan Rodgers is, you know, he's sort of wandering about now, isn't he? Wolves, who lost to Chelsea, they go to Fulham at the weekend. Fulham are through to the quarterfinals. they beat Wickham on penalties. Josh King has scored an absolute beauty. Sort of not quite as good as Zola, but still a backheel volley from the corner. And then Henri Leconte saved lots of Wickham's penalties. May not have been Henri Leconte, but it's what it sounded like to me. I'm starting to feel a bit sorry for Wolves because the last two matches have been home games where they've started really badly. The crowd have massively got on their back.

23:10Then they've made this rousing comeback, got the crowd onside. And lost both games, ultimately. So I'm still convinced there's something there that can be salvaged. And I'm still not convinced Wolves are the worst team in the Premier League. But they really need to win this game. But they're playing a Fulham side who have lost four in a row. And I think if Fulham were to lose this, people at Craven Cottage might start choking on their olive stones and hummus. you might have a point alright that'll do for part one part two we'll begin at the end

23:57welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly in the break Robin you can tell us all because it was funny about West Ham yeah no apologies I don't know who posted this but it just caught my attention that Jared Bowen is like the only human being in a Muppets film which I thought was beautifully absurd anyway to the Emirates Dan says have Arsenal become too reliant on goals from open play they beat Brighton 2-0 two goals in the second half from Manieri and Saka Jordan Brighton started the game quite well actually Arsenal are probably lucky to get a clean sheet in this game but it's still a clean sheet you know down and started it's all looking quite rosy for your lot isn't it 3-0 down Max we were very lucky in that first 15 minutes but yeah, we're only a little bit of luck but it is looking good, clean sheets galore for the great Arsenal, Dalman got some good minutes and impressed once again Manieri's finish I thought was neat and tidy and it was a nice strike, I was really happy for him because he's gone from when Saka was out injured last season to being like the hot guy, to kind of being dropped second half of the season I know he signed his contract in the summer but I think to keep him involved and him scoring goals just makes him feel like he is a part of this because he is one of the young players that is a part of this journey.

25:19So I'm glad that he got minutes and a goal. I thought there was one or two more dropping of players than I would have liked. I thought I was wide a little bit at the top at the start of the game, I won't lie. I thought it was slightly weaker than I would have liked. But Nicola Teta's got the team in the groove. You know, Brighton are no easy team to get past. And our record against Brighton in the last few years isn't great, especially at the Emirates. so yeah to kind of get past them with that team i thought i thought was very impressive as well my boy marino who i love i love i love nicky marino that that flick to set up that uh the second goal i think it was um was was just was just delicious um lewis kelly involved in that as well so yeah it's all looking good for arsenal we're gonna do the quad well i was about to ask um sort of how how comfortable does it sit with you that a lot of people are now just saying Arsenal have basically won the league Not comfortable at all Because anybody from here can mess it up It's Arsenal FC Trust me I think we've just got to focus on ourselves It's a cliche of course But I think Arsenal have just got to block out the noise Of what's happening with Chelsea, City and Liverpool And just focus on doing what they're doing And just build the buffer up Liverpool will win games again City will go on a run again Chelsea will get better We've just got to make sure that by the time that happens we've got enough of a buffer and a gap that it doesn't really matter when our dip comes because we will have a dip we will have a dip for sure but right now we just look so impregnable at the back and able to score across the board up top yeah it's looking worryingly good for us at the moment You have an Arsenal podcast Jordan what's it called?

26:56JJB's Hot Takes? Not quite that was my vote but it got outvoted because the world needs another Arsenal podcast doesn't it? The loose cannons me and a couple of friends Turkish and James we like to think we're the balanced Arsenal fans we're not too we're going to win the league we're going ah sap the manager get him out it's more considered so go check it out on YouTube and all of your podcast platforms alright cool Brighton by the way home to Leeds this weekend Man City won 3-1 at Swansea there was a bit of hope wasn't there Robin that this could be the big upset yeah yeah and actually with the current guys of Manchester City they're not in the kind of form that they were in last season where you think, oh, this could happen.

27:37It could have happened, but it was a great strike, wasn't it, by Franco? I thought, actually, that was my favourite one. That was my favourite one. It was kind of looping, and then in off the post, it was very aesthetically pleasing. And then, yeah, I mean, just Man City just showed their depth. You know, Doku had a big deflection from Doku, Marmouche with an absolutely leather dit, and a turkey as well. So, I mean, it was fairly comfortable in the end, but it just shows that they are still a little bit vulnerable, Man City, and yeah, really good for seeing their game against Bournemouth. I think it's important, though, that they did have goal scorers that weren't Haaland.

28:11We know they've got lots of great attackers, but my reasoning for having Liverpool was a bigger contender to our challenge than City was that for the hot form that Haaland's in, he seems to be the only person scoring goals at City. When he doesn't score, they don't seem to win games. So I think this was a good game for them to not play him and have multiple other attackers in the back of the net. You mentioned it, Robin, Man City-Bournemouth, Barry, which is fascinating actually. Yeah, it should be a really good game. My only concern about it is Manchester City have won all eight of their Premier League home games against Bournemouth.

28:47Bournemouth, I think, have only beaten City once in the Premier League in 16 meetings. Now, I don't know how much you can read into these historical records and they probably shouldn't make any difference but they do for some reason or other. I'm not sure why. Bournemouth just have been brilliant so far this season. City have been a bit up and down. Erling Haaland is obviously on a one-game goal drought, so I suspect he may rectify that situation on Sunday. I saw on the BBC website, actually, Eli Krupe is looking to score in his fourth consecutive Premier League game for Bournemouth, and if he did score against City, he would become the fourth teenager in Premier League history to score in four more consecutive games.