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In short
Guardian Football Weekly discusses PSG vs Bayern Munich’s 5-4 Champions League semi-final thriller (including the late handball penalty controversy), plus other football: Championship promotion/Playoff races, Man United vs Brentford, Real Madrid’s coaching search (Jose Mourinho), IFAB rule changes, John Stones leaving Man City, and Roy Hodgson spotted in the West Country.
Guests (panel)
Barry Glendening, Max (host), Jonathan Wilson, and Johnny (Lu). Backgrounds: Glendening and Max are Guardian football writers/pundits; Jonathan Wilson is a football tactics/history journalist; Johnny Lu is a football journalist/commentator.
Key claims
The match was “hollow brilliance” (modern superclubs exploiting money) but also praised as fearless, high-quality attacking football; the penalty for handball was harsh/possibly not a penalty; PSG still likely to qualify despite Bayern’s comeback momentum.
Notable examples
Kane penalty and pass; Luis Diaz’s touch/finish; Crouchelier’s goal threat; Bayern conceding five in a game; Ipswich’s Jack Clarke late goal; United’s win over Brentford; Mourinho as Real Madrid’s preferred candidate; IFAB yellow-card reset and mouth-covering red-card risk.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOMatch Highlights Overview
0:45 to 1:48
Discussion of the thrilling match between PSG and Bayern, highlighting key moments.
“Also last night, a huge game in the Championship at St Mary's, and Jack Clark's late goal means Ipswich are in the box seat for promotion, while Southampton settle for the playoffs.”
Panel Introductions
1:48 to 2:53
Introduction of the panel members and their initial thoughts on the match.
“Malmol Neuer didn't actually have to make a save.”
Analysis of PSG vs Bayern
2:53 to 4:37
In-depth analysis of the attacking and defensive plays during the match.
“I mean, I think the crux of the question here is whether this was bad defending or intentional non-defending.”
Tactical Insights and Player Performance
4:37 to 6:20
Discussion on individual performances and tactical decisions from both teams.
“And if They're 30 yards out of position.”
Reflections on Game Quality
6:20 to 7:45
Reflections on the quality of football and its implications on modern play.
“you know whatever because I enjoyed every second of this game I enjoyed the fearless approach of both teams.”
Debate on Defensive Issues
7:45 to 9:12
Debate on whether defensive lapses were intentional or a result of tactics.
“Just sometimes it's too good for you and there's nothing you can do.”
Key Moments and Players
9:12 to 11:30
Highlighting key player contributions and moments that defined the match.
Controversial Decisions and Reactions
11:30 to 13:00
Discussion on controversial refereeing decisions and their impact on the game.
“There's maybe like two dozen who in that situation will almost inevitably get a shot away or create a big chance.”
Penalty Controversy Discussion
14:00 to 15:00
Discussing the harshness of a controversial penalty decision.
“Like, I don't have a huge amount more to say than that.”
Game Dynamics and Team Reactions
15:00 to 16:00
Analyzing how both teams reacted during the match and their current standings.
“Kane thought that Bayern had enough chances to make the game safe early on, which I think it raises an interesting question.”
Show all 28 chapters
Tactical Insights and Future Matches
16:00 to 17:40
Exploring tactical nuances and what the second leg could mean for both teams.
“Like, other people must have more power.”
Defining a Perfect Football Match
17:40 to 19:00
Debating the qualities of an ideal football match and its emotional impact.
“get two or three early goals, I really think it'll be a bit of a nail-biter.”
Goalkeeping Performance Evaluation
19:00 to 20:30
Evaluating the performances of goalkeepers in the recent match.
“And apart from that, I've just gone through all the goals and I do not see what more either keeper could have done to keep them out, really.”
Upcoming Matches and Predictions
20:30 to 22:00
Discussing the predictions for future matches and potential outcomes.
“Simon says, sure, the goals were good, but did you see the way PSG booted the ball straight out of play from kickoff?”
Current State of Arsenal's Team
22:00 to 23:40
Analyzing Arsenal's form and potential against Atletico in the upcoming match.
“But they have an incredible opportunity to get to a Champions League final.”
Southampton vs Ipswich Match Insights
24:05 to 25:10
Reviewing the key moments from the Southampton vs Ipswich match.
“mill will have 80 and middlesbrough 79 so it goes down to the final day you watched this game as well, Barry?”
Manchester United's Recent Performance
25:10 to 26:10
Discussing Manchester United's performance against Brentford and their season's trajectory.
“Millwall home to Oxford, who are already relegated.”
Carrick's Coaching Challenges
26:10 to 28:00
Examining Carrick's role as a coach and the challenges he faces moving forward.
“I still don't really know what United are trying to be.”
Assessing Michael Carrick's Coaching Impact
28:00 to 34:30
Explore the complexities of evaluating Michael Carrick's performance as Manchester United's coach amidst mixed results and player dynamics.
“And what happens when they go into their first dip?”
Jose Mourinho's Potential Return to Real Madrid
34:30 to 34:45
Discuss the implications of Jose Mourinho potentially becoming the next head coach at Real Madrid and the challenges he may face.
“Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly.”
The Unique Demands of Coaching at Real Madrid
34:45 to 37:30
Examine what it takes to succeed as a coach at Real Madrid, including the high expectations and internal politics.
“is the preferred candidate of Florentino Perez to become the next Real Madrid head coach.”
IFAB Rule Changes and Their Impact on the Game
37:30 to 39:20
Review the recent rule changes approved by IFAB and discuss their potential effects on football matches and player behavior.
“He wins from the league, which he still keeps banging on about.”
Reflections on John Stones and Football Memories
39:20 to 42:01
Hear a heartfelt message reflecting on John Stones' departure from Manchester City and the connection between football and personal memories.
“following what happened in AFCON between Morocco and Senegal.”
Reflections on Grief and Football
42:01 to 42:32
Exploring how personal loss intertwines with the love for football.
“who in dad's word was the epitome of the Rolls Royce and Bernardo Silva, who he affectionately called Bubblegum as the ball just stuck to his foot.”
Transfer Rumors and Player Speculations
42:33 to 43:06
Discussion about potential transfers involving players like Stones.
“Is there any talk of where Stones will go?”
Roy Hodgson's Sweet Visit
43:07 to 43:44
A light-hearted anecdote about Roy Hodgson visiting an ice cream shop.
“Mark says, Roy Hodgson spotted in the West Country klaxon.”
Personal Stories of Scattering Ashes
43:45 to 46:31
A touching conversation about scattering ashes and memories associated with loss.
“That's like one of Dan Bardell's Instagram posts.”
Closing Thoughts and Thank You
46:32 to 47:39
Wrapping up the episode with final thoughts and acknowledgments.
“And then my mam's ashes, I scattered near a bit of forest near Ullswater in the Lake District.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.
0:30Jonathan Wilson:PSG came back, Crouchelier, and then tiny man Jo Neves with a header. Alise banged one in for 2-2, then a games-gone penalty for 3-2 PSG. In the second half, 4-2, 5-2. Did anyone think it was over? 5-3. And then the goal of the night, Kane's perfect pass, the touch of the night from Diaz to bring it down. Delay, delay, and fire home. Wonderful stuff. Also last night, a huge game in the Championship at St Mary's, and Jack Clark's late goal means Ipswich are in the box seat for promotion, while Southampton settle for the playoffs. There's Man United's win over Brentford from Monday. Jose to Real Madrid, question mark.
1:00Jonathan Wilson:And more of the feature of the season, Roy Hodgson in the wild in the West Country. All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.
1:15Jonathan Wilson:On the panel today, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hello, Max. Hello, Johnny Lu. Hi. And welcome, Jonathan Wilson. Morning. How are you doing? I'm very well. Andrew says, while PSG Bayern was outstanding, how does it really hold up to Wrexham being 5-2 down at home to Dover after 63 minutes in March 2022, only to come back to win 6-5 with 91st and 96th minute strikes from local lad Jordan Davies? There's levels to this. PSG 5, Bayern 4, the highest scoring semifinal in Champions League history. Nine goals, only 11 shots on target. Malmol Neuer didn't actually have to make a save. First time in two and a half years that Bayern have conceded five in a game.
1:55Jonathan Wilson:I know you're not a goals guy Wilson but this was special I thought this football match
2:01Barry Glendenning:yeah I mean here we go here we go no it was a little bit like you know if you get like a really good chocolate mousse okay like the first two or three spoonfuls are amazing and then you think oh god I've still got a whole bowl of this and I'm starting to feel slightly nauseous and by half time I was already thinking this could do with some toasted oats just to sort of calm it down and by the end I felt slightly nauseous and so on the one level it was brilliant obviously it was an incredible thing to watch the level of attacking football was brilliant the drama was brilliant but I couldn't help thinking this is actually just an indictment of modern football that this is what happens if you let half dozen clubs get more money than everybody else by a massive margin they can just accumulate all the best players there and then in the domestic leagues they never have to bother defending so they don't actually know how to defend them there's no midfields there's no toasted oats if you will um it's it's all too much of one thing and then maybe if Randall Noy had actually been tested at all in the Bundesliga this season they'd have noticed that he's too old and they should have been gotten rid of years ago like he had an awful night he was terrible so it was brilliant but it was sort of a hollow brilliance I felt
3:11Jonathan Wilson:oh well there we are there that's uh it's pissed on everyone's chips hasn't it um do you go with that, Johnny? No, I mean, no, not really.
3:25Jonathan Liew:Easily, please. Just give him sugar, you'll be fine. No, it is good. I mean, I think the crux of the question here is whether this was bad defending or intentional non-defending. I think there's a difference there. Like, is this a failure of defending or is this, because everyone knows about the attacking talent on the pitch and both teams are you know whether that's their strengths so is this both teams just trying to play to their strengths or do they do it badly and i think it's a bit of both like if you take the elise goal for two all which is which is a really it's a great finish but he also he also takes the ball totally unopposed in in what the you know the bit around the area the bit that the nerds call zone 14 like simple pavlovich pass he's got six players around him but they're not close to him so to me that's not a game plan that's just bad football pavlovich should not be able to pick apart the midfield and defence of the European champions.
4:18Jonathan Liew:But then you have the Douai chance from which the corner comes where Neves makes it 2-1, which is a simple throw out from Safinov and a throw out from the keeper and suddenly Paris a three on three. Now to me, that's not bad defending. That's what Kompany wants. That's the gamble he's kind of taken. By and large, I think if a defender is three yards out of position, it's probably their fault. And if They're 30 yards out of position. That's the coach's fault. So I think what we saw was a... I think Paris were just a little bit... I think company was happier with the openness of the game. And I think Paris got suckered into it a little bit.
4:52Jonathan Liew:And I think if the first leg was in Munich, it would be a very, very different game. You would get a much smarter Paris, maybe trying to control the game a bit more, trying to bait by and a bit more and maneuver them around. And at 5-2, I think they basically have a foot in the final. But I'm not as confident. I still think they do it, But I'm not as confident now because I think they got, they missed a huge opportunity there to put the tie to bed.
5:15Jonathan Wilson:I hate Barry to stereotype this panel as two sort of thinking man's journalists and then two sort of more rudimentary type people. But we are on me, me and you are on the bottom of the screen. And I don't know about you. I was just like, this is a really entertaining football match. And I haven't thought beyond that.
5:34Max Rushden:Yeah, I mean, I think we're in a bad place when the cheerleading duties fall to me.
5:43Max Rushden:But this is very much a first world problem, but I often resent the fact that I am often professionally obliged to watch terrible football matches. And this season, I seem to have seen an awful lot more than I usually have to sit through. whereas if I wasn't professionally obliged I could just turn them off and go and do something else but last night I was watching this and I felt sad for any football fan who couldn't watch it for whatever reason because they can't afford the subscription or they'd made other plans or you know whatever because I enjoyed every second of this game I enjoyed the fearless approach of both teams.
6:32Max Rushden:I loved the speed, the movement. Every touch was a rapier thrust. The absolute standout quality of all the attacking players on the pitch, Wayne Rooney and Clarence Seedorf were, they were being a bit grumpy, like the two Jonathans bemoaning the poor defending. But when I look back on the game and I watched the highlights again this morning, there were no conspicuously bad mistakes that led to goals that I can remember. There were no glaring errors. Neither goalkeeper made a mistake. That was, you know, ooh, he's dropped a clanger there. Just the quality of the attacking play by all sort of six front men was just brilliant.
7:23Jonathan Liew:I loved it, by the way. I was really entertained. I did not hate that at all. I thought that I thought it was a brilliant game of football. I was just trying to analyse why it happened.
7:32Max Rushden:Fair enough. But like Nuno Mendes and Hashir Fakimi are two of the best full-backs on the planet. And they both got absolutely rinsed last night. And I'm not sure what else they could have done to be better. Just sometimes it's too good for you and there's nothing you can do.
7:54Barry Glendenning:But that's where it's the coach's job to create a situation where the fullbacks aren't isolated to make sure you always have cover there so they can't get in one of you.
8:02Jonathan Wilson:But isn't that the gamble, Wilson? The way they both play is that it's the blanket that doesn't cover everything, right? You can't have that if you want to have the attacking talent that you have. Or can you attack and defend really well in the same team?
8:16Barry Glendenning:I mean, getting the balance right is what coaching is. It's not even just that that's the gamble they've taken. It's almost the gamble they have to take because the truth is in the domestic league and I know Leung's have pushed PSG relatively close this season but I mean Bayern had the league won I mean mathematically two or three weeks ago but in reality in about November they so they never get to practice that so you know if you suddenly ask it's like when England go to used to go to a World Cup and oh it's going to be hot we're gonna have to pass the ball and England no idea how to do it and therefore we're hopeless don't ask players to do a thing they haven't done all season so you might as well attack because that is what you're good at but then you get these you know game where there's just no midfield
8:59Jonathan Wilson:which is odd as well sorry because that's odd because their midfields they are two brilliant
9:03Barry Glendenning:midfields in these teams i think psg is a brilliant midfield i think bian is an okay is a decent midfield i mean i think is not what he was pavlovich is not quite what he might be the yeah psg's midfield on paper looks brilliant yeah but i mean if it's just not tested in that way and i have to say i think barry's been very kind to neuer i think the i i've lost which goals over fourth and fifth goals i think he's really flat-footed i i think yeah in the corner aren't
9:32Jonathan Wilson:they the dembelly one's off the post isn't it yeah but he sort of he set himself completely
9:37Barry Glendenning:to go the other way so he can't conceive the idea the ball might go as near post i think he gets
9:41Jonathan Wilson:himself rooted far too early you know we all know as people over 40 changing direction is very difficult so Johnny Barry does make a good a really good point about the performances of the attacking players I mean I was trying to work out how to go through it if we go through the goals chronologically you almost touch on every player so Harry Kane scores that penalty Luis Diaz won it like I thought Kane was brilliant last night I can't think of a wrong decision he made in the
10:05Jonathan Liew:whole game yeah Kane Kane individually was great I mean I think there is this there is this idea right that he famously doesn't turn up in big games and he seems to be he seems to be now turning up in in more and more of them right like a euro semi-final and and both legs of a champions league quarterfinal and now champions league semi-final yeah i mean you could you could go through all of them at least say like he could have had two or three potentially there was one run where he basically gets all the way to the byline and and there's a and it's almost an own goal it sort of hits the post but like an incredible run diaz uh you know cutting inside and and and um and running through the center and and dragging defenders with him and and and yeah i mean look we can talk about the attacking talent and and it is you know i think the the factors that wilson mentioned this is this is why you know super clubs are are able to to attract this this level of talent but i think you know what once you have multiple players who you basically can't leave one-on-one, I think it just changes the game.
11:07Jonathan Liew:It just fundamentally rebalances the game to a huge extent. You're playing a kind of different game because your only real option against that is to defend in numbers, which is obviously what most League One teams do. It's what most Bundesliga teams do against Bayern when they come up against Bayern. Having multiple players of that quality, and there's actually not that many. If you think about players who you can't leave one-on-one. There's maybe like two dozen who in that situation will almost inevitably get a shot away or create a big chance. And once you have multiple players of that quality, it does make a completely different game because you are then forcing the opposition to really almost change the way that they want to set up.
11:53Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, I thought Diaz was sensational, Barry. Like just the way he carries the ball. And I mean, he was good at Liverpool, but I feel like he's gone up a level and his touch for that goal is just ludicrous.
12:06Max Rushden:Yeah, again, Marquinhos is a brilliant defender. He's getting on a bit, but the way Diaz took the Harry Kane pass down, gave him a couple of yards, then the touch and the strike, he's brilliant throughout the game. I wonder what Liverpool fans must think when they see how well he's doing at Bayern Munich. He's part of a front three now that last night They scored their 100th goal between them this season. But yeah, he's brilliant. I mean, the Bayern front three is brilliant. Elisa has also gone up several levels and Kane is just outstanding.
12:44Jonathan Wilson:Yeah. And then, you know, we haven't talked about Crouchelier yet, Wilson, really. He was, you know, it was ridiculously good.
12:54Barry Glendenning:Yeah, I mean, he is ridiculously good. He basically does one thing, but he does it exceptionally well. and nobody can really stop him. I thought Wayne Rooney's comment that he's a little bit like Mark Overmars. I mean, he is, but he's a bit more powerful than Overmars. But the way he comes short and spins him behind and you know he's going to go inside. I just sort of started to think, I think he's had quite a quiet start because he put in that one cross early on. And literally as thoughts are formed in my head, the ball's put three for him to cut in and equalize. and you knew as soon as he starts, as soon as the weight goes from him to come inside, you know that that's the goal.
13:32Barry Glendenning:You're from three or four seconds out. Yeah, you could say there's five or six of those players there, but he's just one of those players I absolutely love watching.
13:39Jonathan Wilson:Steve says, I can already imagine you've got your head in your hands over that penalty for PSG. Michael says, ruining a game like this with a humble decision like that. I can hear Max Rushton yelling at a cloud from here. Andy just called it a Max Rushton special. Joseph says, Max, that's one of the best games of football ever. please don't spend 75 % of the pod talking about the handball I've got to say Johnny I was so livid just absolutely livid about it and I I am yelling at a cloud there's nothing I can do like it's insane that that is now seen as a penalty by anyone and there are people who go no that is a handball he's actually intentionally moved his hand out and in it's coming at such pace I don't know who I'm talking to anymore but like it it really it saddens me that you get a penalty for that.
14:23Jonathan Liew:Yeah, it was a bit harsh.
14:24Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, thanks, Johnny.
14:26Jonathan Liew:It was a bit harsh. Like, I don't have a huge amount more to say than that. I mean...
14:30Max Rushden:Well, this is what always happens. Max shouts at Cloud, we all kind of agree with him and then we move on. I don't think it ruined the game. I think it added to the spectacle. I mean, the question is, which of these two teams is happier? I think they're probably both quite happy with that result because Bayern looked in danger of being down and out at 5-2, but they got it back to 5-4. They're at home next week. And PSG will be happy because they won. And I saw Luis Enrique being interviewed after the game and he was very happy.
15:01Jonathan Liew:Kane thought that Bayern had enough chances to make the game safe early on, which I think it raises an interesting question. How many goals would you have needed to make that game safe? Because certainly early on.
15:13Jonathan Wilson:5-2, I definitely didn't think, oh, this is done. I just didn't think it was done. So, yeah.
15:19Barry Glendenning:Seven, maybe? Yeah. My concern to PSG was how knackered they looked the last 10 minutes. That's not a good sign because it means if Bayern are within touch with 10, 15 minutes to go next week, then they can get back into it. But on the penalty, even if the ball hit his hand directly, I don't think that should be a penalty. Of course. But it flicks his upper thigh and hip on the way onto his hand. I mean, the problem is that you can say it didn't change the game, But PSG won by one, and that is one goal. If they end up winning the tie by that, it just feels cheap.
15:54Jonathan Wilson:But what do we do about it, Wilson? I've tweeted IFAB. They don't reply. I've emailed IFAB. They don't listen to me. Like, other people must have more power.
Read the full transcript
16:05Barry Glendenning:The Premier League have got this right, basically, with handball. Like, Premier League's not in a bad place with handball. It's not perfect, but it's a lot, lot better than UEFA. it's those petty Eurocrats who impose their piddling regulations we need to break away from Europe and set out alone
16:24Jonathan Wilson:but that's it but that's the trouble isn't it like maybe that could are you saying that is the one benefit of Brexit is that the handball law is fine at the Premier League and maybe Brexit was worth it
16:34Barry Glendenning:I mean the FA has never been that beholden to UEFA so no but it does feel like I don't know Is there a greater Euro tolerance for interfering bureaucracy? I don't know. Whereas our proud independent spirit means our island nation goes it alone.
16:54Jonathan Wilson:Johnny, who do you think is in a better position now going into the second leg?
16:59Jonathan Liew:I still think Paris will do it. But Bayern will definitely go into that game. They will believe that in front of a home crowd, that if they can get an early goal, certainly that they can, you know, they can overturn that, you know. And I think the belief in that team that we saw at 5-2 down is that whatever you score, we'll just score one more. You score 12, we'll score 13. And, you know, that can be incredibly powerful, an incredibly powerful belief when you're chasing a game. But as Barcelona discovered against Inter last season, it could also be a kind of a curse because teams are always finding ways to cut you open and you can never really put a game to bed.
17:38Jonathan Liew:So, you know, unless Paris, you know, get two or three early goals, I really think it'll be a bit of a nail-biter.
17:46Jonathan Wilson:Obviously, lots of goals doesn't equal, you know, it's not linear in terms of that means it's a better game. So what is your perfect game of football? That's what I'm interested. What's the perfect Wilson football match?
17:58Barry Glendenning:I think, yeah, I'd want a bit more balance between attack and defence. I want to feel the goals are sort of hard-earned rather than just sort of happening. I'd certainly want goalkeepers playing better than they did last night.
18:07Jonathan Wilson:I thought Safinov did okay, actually. Yeah, I'm sort of with Barry. I don't think either of them were terrible in this game. I think he is. Well, I think that's very generous.
18:14Barry Glendenning:But did they make one save between them of note? Safinov made a few. It came out low down to his left.
18:23Jonathan Wilson:So what, do you want a 3-2 or a 2-1 or it's not?
18:26Barry Glendenning:Yeah, I think once you get into more than sort of, certainly more than seven goals, I'm feeling uncomfortable. it's just got a bit silly okay it's about balance right you don't you know yeah so could you pick
18:39Jonathan Wilson:out so could you take emotion out of football obviously there are sunderland games that will mean more to you than others but like can you objectively think of a football match that you've gone this this is the gold standard of a football match i think uh spain yugoslavia in year 2000
18:52Barry Glendenning:was a really great game 4-3 to spain so that was seven goals that was seven yeah you need at least
18:58Max Rushden:one red card there was a was it a Spain Netherlands match in a World Cup or Euros no Portugal Netherlands oh yeah
19:07Jonathan Liew:Battle of Nuremberg
19:09Barry Glendenning:Battle of Nuremberg 2006 2-2 16 yellow cards 4 reds referee was Valentin Ivanov can I just
19:18Max Rushden:circle back here I think Wilson is being incredibly hard on the goalkeepers here the only one I can think of where a goalkeeper was at fault was Ousmane Dembele's shot that he pulled in off the post where Neuer was caught really flat-footed because he was expecting him to go the other side. And apart from that, I've just gone through all the goals and I do not see what more either keeper could have done to keep them out, really.
19:49Barry Glendenning:Neuer literally dies out of the way of the fourth goal. He tries to predict where Kerskelly is going to put it and guess is wrong. And also, I don't think Safanov with the Alise goal, he's in the middle of the goal. Why has he tried to guess and dive to his right?
20:05Jonathan Wilson:He's absolutely banged.
20:06Barry Glendenning:But why is he diving that early?
20:09Jonathan Wilson:I think you are being... I don't like keepers predicting like that.
20:13Max Rushden:I think you're being generous. So that's where we are. We need to send up the Joel Herat or Shea given Klaxon.
20:22Barry Glendenning:Well, I mean, they won't see it as being a goalkeeper ever, will they? I mean... Sure.
20:26Jonathan Wilson:I mean, I'd ask Beaver first. but there we go. Simon says, sure, the goals were good, but did you see the way PSG booted the ball straight out of play from kickoff? Football heritage. No, I'm a huge fan of this. I'm trying to get our Sunday League team to do this, but there are too many purists in the side. And I'm saying, look, PSG are doing it for goodness sake. It's fine for territory. Box them in. But they're like, oh, let's keep the ball anyway. Producer Tayo says, by how many goals will Arsenal Athlete outscore tonight's ball fest? Yeah, so we have Athlete Arsenal. It does seem, Johnny, it's almost too predictable to be like, well, this will be terrible.
21:02Jonathan Wilson:And it may not be terrible. We don't know. You know, Atleti are not the Atleti that we all think they are, as Sid has established. But what are we expecting?
21:12Jonathan Liew:No, I mean, Atleti haven't been the Atleti of the popular imagination in arguably five or six years. They've been quite reliably entertaining in La Liga this season. I think the question is whether Arsenal can break them down. Whether Arsenal can get over their own neuroses and get over their own kind of incoherence and actually put together an attacking performance worthy of the name. Because if they do, I think it could actually be an entertaining game. There's no, I mean, there's nothing that says that this is doomed to be a nil-nil or a one-nil. There are also plenty of very good attacking players in the semi-final.
21:50Jonathan Liew:But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, a lot of my Arsenal friends go, how are we even in the same competition as these two, as Bayern and PSG? There was a real kind of inferiority complex that seems to have set in. But they have an incredible opportunity to get to a Champions League final. And well, I hope for their sake that they embrace it because this is a tie that is there for the taking, really.
22:13Jonathan Wilson:And if Arsenal do get through, which is a big if, Wilson, is that a more interesting football match? Seeing two styles pitted against each other?
22:20Barry Glendenning:So if they get through to play PSG or Bayern? Yeah. Not necessarily, maybe. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, I think I'd have Atleti favourites, actually. I think. I know they're 25 points off the top, but they've kind of jacked in the league. I mean, they'd lost four in a row and maybe four the weekend. But there have been a funny team this season, Atletico, that they've played Barcelona six times, they've beaten them twice, but somehow they seem to have won the ones they needed to win. And I think Griezmann and Julien Alvarez are probably going to be the best two forwards on the pitch. So given, I think, how tense Arsenal will be and how good Simeone's sides are at playing on that, yeah, I'm not saying it's 100 % Atletico win, but I'd probably have them 55-45 favourites.
23:03Barry Glendenning:Any strong thoughts, Baz?
23:04Max Rushden:Arsenal played Atletico in the group stage. I think it was the third round. Beat them 4-0. They know what they can do against Atletico, but that was a different Arsenal to the one we've seen in recent months because the current Arsenal are paralysed by fear and seem to be their own worst enemies. But if they can channel the Arsenal that beat Atletico 4-0 before Christmas, then of course they've got a chance.
23:34Jonathan Wilson:I suppose if they do beat them 4-0 in both legs, they've got a very good chance of making it through to the final, don't they? Anyway, that'll do for part one, part two. We'll begin with a big game in the Championship last night.
23:55Jonathan Wilson:welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly uh so in the championship uh it was a massive game atst mary's uh ended southampton to ipswich two which means southampton are out of the automatic promotion race in the playoffs uh ipswich are in the box seat now on 81 points mill will have 80 and middlesbrough 79 so it goes down to the final day you watched this game as well, Barry? What did you make of it?
24:17Max Rushden:It was a good game. Ipswich will feel they left that automatic promotion place behind them. They could have wrapped it up last night once Jack Clark was outstanding for Ipswich, but had two late chances to win the game for them and seal promotion. One hit the post, hit the goalkeeper and went wide, could have gone in. That was desperately unlucky. then he had a late shot superbly saved by Peretz in the Southampton goal so Ipswich will be gutted they didn't wrap up promotion last night but it makes things very interesting for the rest of us at the weekend I think it's Saturday lunchtime these games are being played because it's I think you called it a Monday it's going to be a real bun fight for that second automatic promotion spot
25:09Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, win for Ipswich takes them up They're home to QPR. Millwall home to Oxford, who are already relegated. Middlesbrough have the toughest game. They go to Wrexham, who do need the points to be sure of a playoff spot. And they are in a fight for the last playoff spot with Hull and Derby. Hull host Norwich and Derby host Sheffield United.
25:26Max Rushden:Sorry, just before you move on from the championship, Max, I was chatting to a fellow yesterday, a Sheffield Wednesday fan, who is going to Hillsborough for their final game of the season. They're still dreaming of hitting the magical zero point mark this season. And apparently Hillsborough is going to be an absolute sellout and they're expecting the biggest crowd in the championship this season of any championship game. And I think that is an absolute heroic effort by Wednesday fans. The magic north points. Quite the wake. Yeah, isn't it?
26:03Jonathan Wilson:At Old Trafford on Monday night, Manchester United beat Brentford 2-1. so that moves them third onto 61 points and now 11 points clear of Brighton in sixth. What did you make of this game, Johnny?
26:14Jonathan Liew:Yeah, I thought United were okay. You know, they were decent value in the first half and then I think Brentford came back at them quite hard in the second half and had Thiago taken in one of those chances that they got it could have been like a very, very different story. I still don't really know what United are trying to be. There have been clearly a lot of good individual performances. I thought Maynou was really good. They're obviously heavily reliant on Bruno still for the creative part of the game. I still don't see what Carrick is trying to make them. There's been a lot of talk about returning to solid United values or whatever.
26:55Jonathan Liew:And from the games that I've seen of them under him, it's almost been quite a bit of a mishmash. You know, they've played a lot of games where they're against opposition. You'd expect them to be, you know, the Leeds game, for example, or the Bournemouth game where they just kind of get stuck. And, you know, I don't know whether that's teething problems or whether it's almost a side that still has almost got a little bit of a free hit to the end of the season. And are almost waiting for someone to stamp a kind of identity on them. Because I don't really see what they're trying to do yet. But, you know, they've clearly made it into the Champions League next season.
27:30Jonathan Liew:And I think that's almost mathematically secure. So that's great for the cash machines. I'm interested to see what they do in the summer because I still haven't quite got a sense of what they're trying to be.
27:41Jonathan Wilson:Because it is worth saying, and I think I'm right, and I've said it before, that they were just one point ahead of Tottenham when Carrick took over. So he's undoubtedly done a good job. But do you think, like it feels like they should give him the job, like he's done enough, but do you think that is, you don't know if that would be the right call or not?
27:58Jonathan Liew:Yeah, I don't think we know. I think the job that Carrick has now is really different to the job that is going to await him next season. And what happens when they go into their first dip? Because obviously they're not good enough yet to go and get 85, 90 points and search the title. They're all going to be peaks and troughs. And because of the way that noise is amplified, how does Carrick deal with that? I think the Solskjaer parallels are kind of overdone a little bit. I think Carrick is a better coach than Solskjaer was at this stage of taking the United job. But it is a big leap in the dark because there are going to be good coaches available this summer who United could get.
28:38Jonathan Liew:And if they don't go and get those coaches, if they do kind of throw their lot in with Carrick and they're mid-table in November and they have to sack him, it will feel like they've done the wrong thing.
28:48Jonathan Wilson:Sure. But it's so impossible, Jonathan, rather, because if they don't hire Carrick and they get a big name a different name in a you know a coach with more experience whatever and they're not they don't go off to a flyer there's just lots of people going you know DNA
29:03Barry Glendenning:you had Michael Carrick yeah I mean absolutely and it's really hard to tell partly because he's essentially been playing with no pressure this season but also because they went out of both cups at the earliest possible opportunity and didn't have Europe they haven't in the entire season played a team who's played less football than them they've been as fresh or fresher than every single opponent they've played and you look at how shattered for instance Arsenal look but I mean not not just Arsenal but Arsenal I think really are showing the fatigue well of course United don't show that because they've played 40 games at the end of the season so how do you possibly judge and the only way you can judge is if you're on the inside and you hope some directors have somehow got a handle on what players think, on what players are doing, get a sense of how he is around the dressing room, around the club.
29:54Barry Glendenning:And that's all you can base your decision on. But he's almost, if you were trying to create a situation where the decision is impossible, you couldn't have made it better than this. He hasn't been so brilliant that you think you've got to give him a job. It's not like they're going out playing sparkling football, winning every game 4-5-6-0. And they haven't been rubbish either. They've been pretty good with the odd blip. And in some ways, it's good that they have the defeat to Leeds, for instance, and then were able to come back and win. So that tells you a little bit that it wasn't just a balloon waiting to be burst.
30:30Barry Glendenning:But I still really have no idea how good a coach Michael Carrick is, and I'm really glad I don't have to make the decision.
30:36Max Rushden:Yeah, I think it's one of those, Sir Jim Ratcliffe and his Politburo of Bullshit as Dion Fanning memorably called it, it's kind of changed since those days but they get a lot of grief for making bad decisions but this is going to be a gamble whatever they decide and it's a really because Carrick's won nine games drawn two, lost two the players seem to like him the fans seem to like him but He hasn't really done much. He just picked Cobby Menno and moved Bruno forward 20 metres closer to goal. That isn't exactly rocket science or tactical genius. And, I mean, they beat Brentford, but Brentford, if Igor Tiago had not been so uncharacteristically poor, should have won that game.
31:32Yeah, but isn't that just being harsh on Carrick?
31:36Jonathan Wilson:because it is hard to win any Premier League. Winning Premier games is not easy. And if you've won nine out of, what, 13, that is actually... You obviously didn't see nothing of Forrest
31:47Max Rushden:play Sunderland on a Friday.
31:49Jonathan Wilson:No, no, no. Or Brighton played Chelsea the other day. No, you make a good point. I don't know. I agree with you. I think it's very difficult. The other interesting point on that, Johnny, is this idea because, you know, if you remember last season when Tottenham beat Man United in the Europa League final, it was like, well, one side is set and one side is, this is a disaster, right? You know, Man United are, you know, this is, they're not in any European football, whatever. But actually, if your squad isn't big enough and then you have to play both European football and Premier League football, and Tottenham is an extreme example of that given the injuries that they have and still have.
32:23Jonathan Wilson:But like, it's almost good to come 11th if you're a big team and then you just have a free season and you can be good without, and you can be fresh. And I think like if your players are fitter and less tired, that makes such a massive difference.
32:37Jonathan Liew:It can be. I do think fatigue is one of the elements in football these days that it probably isn't talked about enough, partly because we don't have the proprietary data on what playing 50 or 60 games a season does. How do you quantify the performance impact of that load? And obviously there are people within clubs, there are people within the game who will have a handle on that. but it's clearly such a big part of the game. In terms of Spurs, I'm not sure staying out of the Champions League would have helped. I think they'd have just been even sadder even sooner. Champions League was a little crumb of comfort in what has been a dismal season for them.
33:19Jonathan Liew:But I think generally speaking, we don't really know. The fact that Villa have done well in Europe and Forest have done well and Palace have done pretty well, We don't really know what kind of effect that's had on their league campaign. Palace certainly look as though they've put all their eggs in the conference league basket. Glasner's been pretty honest about his rotation policy. But it's a huge boost to a coach, to a certain kind of coach who wants six days on the training field to work with them. And I think certainly United have benefited from that this season and how they balance all of those conflicting schedules and competitions next season is, I guess, another element to it.
34:04Jonathan Wilson:I mean, I think Barry would say, for someone who has to sit on every pre-show small talk, I do talk about fatigue a great deal. I'd say it's perhaps talked about too much. Kobe Maynard signed a new five-year deal. Reports indicate his wages jumped from£25 ,000 a week to something like£150 ,000 a week. God, that'd be a nice thing to sign, wouldn't it? And Brentford are still just two points off six, despite no wins in their last six. Anyway, that'll do for part two. Part three, we'll begin with Jose to Real Madrid, question mark.
34:42Jonathan Wilson:Welcome to part three of the Guardian Football Weekly. So David Ornstein posting that Jose Mourinho is the preferred candidate of Florentino Perez to become the next Real Madrid head coach. Support not universal inside Real Madrid, but president driving process. So the 63-year-old is a strong contender. He has a£3 million break clause with Benfica. Is it a surprise, Baz, this or not a surprise to you? It has just come as a surprise to me because I wasn't aware of this.
35:09Max Rushden:So you've blindsided me with that one. I am not a fan of Jose Mourinho. I think he's a really unpleasant man. but I actually think this might not be as mad as it sounds because that dressing room needs someone to come in and instill some discipline and an authority of a figure like Jose could be just what the doctor ordered because yeah, that dressing room is out of control, wild. Players don't listen to the coach and they might listen to him. so my first impression without really giving it much thought is that as crazy as it sounds it might not be a ridiculous thing for them to do Wilson? I mean I think the big thing is how the dressing room and particularly Vinicius
35:58Barry Glendenning:reacts to Mourinho's comments after the Benfica Real Madrid game when Prestiani he ended up getting a six game ban for homophobic abuse although the initial allegation was of racial abuse of Vinicius and Mourinho came up with some very strange comments after that sort of saying how could this club ever you know racially abuse anybody when Eusebio was one of our great players I'm not sure how Vinicius will will take that and and clearly you know Vinicius had the support of of you know his teammates if you look at you know what happened on the pitch so that would seem to me a really obvious sticking point now i don't know maybe vinicius has moved on and doesn't care i don't know but that's certainly something we need resolving i think yeah i suppose interesting
36:45Jonathan Wilson:johnny is just like who can be a good coach for real madrid zidane is good and angelotti was good but it's like what what do you have to be to be good there we talked about this right it's almost
36:58Jonathan Liew:like there's no there's no other club that really prepares you for the real madrid job because the currents, the internal politics, the level of expectations, the primacy of the dressing room, I guess. And then of course, the totemistic figure of Perez. The internal currents of that job are almost unique. And it's very hard predicting which coaches are going to succeed at it and not. Mourinho, when he goes there in 2010, you'd say he's basically at the peak of his powers. And just about, I think, manages to do... He does an okay job there. He wins from the league, which he still keeps banging on about.
37:35Jonathan Liew:But is he the man who's going to get the best out of the slightly uneven array of talent that Madrid have now? I'm not really sure. We talked about the Vinicius Prestiani incident. I wonder if a lot of Madrid fans are going to want to have him in place. They obviously want, you know, they made a little secret of the fact that they wanted Jurgen Klopp and they're trying to persuade Klopp, might still manage to do it, but doesn't appear to be much progress on that for now.
38:03Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, but on that point, Klopp would have to change his style, wouldn't he? They wouldn't do what Klopp wanted them to do. Or would they do it because Klopp is Klopp?
38:12Jonathan Liew:No, I mean, the Alonso appointment was really interesting because it was almost an attempt to synthesise this kind of the madridismo, the club culture, the club DNA sort of appointment with a coach who is clearly very hands-on, who has very defined ideas of what he wants a team to do and how he wants them to run and play and press and pass. And it got to a point where they just weren't having it. So I think that should be a kind of a wake-up call for them. They essentially have created a team that only a certain kind of coach can ever really get a tune out of. And I think that's quite an invidious position for them to be in because it basically rules them out of 80 % or 90 % of the up-and-coming coaches in world football.
39:00Jonathan Wilson:At the World Cup, players, you mentioned Prestiani, who cover their mouths could face getting a red card if they cover their mouths when speaking to opponents during confrontations. This decision was taken during a special meeting of IFAB in Vancouver, where presumably they didn't talk about the handball law. Also, players who leave the pitch in protest at a referee's decision could face a red card following what happened in AFCON between Morocco and Senegal. Both law changes have been approved as competition opt-ins by IFAB. And yellow cards are to be reset after the group stage as well as after the quarterfinal.
39:34Jonathan Wilson:So that feels like a good idea. Does anyone think that a good idea?
39:39Barry Glendenning:Well, look, it's better than what was before. But I mean, the obvious thing to do, the right thing to do is after the last 16, you cancel group stage yellow cards. Because to be honest, if you're getting two yellow cards within four games, you should be getting a ban. And what you don't want, if you don't get booked in the first two group games, you've got carte blanche to take a yellow in the third group game that's a bad idea so is it after the last 16 or after the last 32 in in now the time's expanded delete yellow cards
40:08Jonathan Liew:from the group stage or if you're if you're if you're already through after you know if you're you're 4-0 up in your second group game you can take a yellow card and know that you're going to
40:17Barry Glendenning:be banned for a dead rubber in the third game i mean that's pretty hard to avoid i'm not sure how
40:21Jonathan Liew:you do avoid that but and avoid having to take that yeah i don't know how you could you could
40:25Barry Glendenning:structure it where that didn't happen. But I don't know why they're so reluctant to sort of not just sort of have the amnesty sort of backdated slightly, which would seem to solve a lot of problems.
40:38Jonathan Wilson:John Stones has confirmed he'll be leaving Manchester City in the summer as a free agent. He announced on Instagram, Man City released a glowing official statement as well, calling him the very embodiment of Pep Guardiola City and praising his astute reading of the game. He was Pep's second ever signing when he came from Everton for 50 million, 293 appearances so far, 19 major trophies, six Premier League titles, a Champions League. And we had a really nice message on this subject from someone called Freddie who said, Seeing John Stones and Bernardo Silva announce their departure from Man City is something I did not think I'd find emotional.
41:08Jonathan Wilson:I'm a Liverpool fan. So if anything, I'd be happy to never see these players who've been the cause of so much stress again. John Stones' goal line clearance that might have been the difference in us lifting another Premier League trophy. and Bernardo Silva waltzing through the middle of the park any time we played them. The reason it's so bittersweet is that almost a year ago to the day of writing this, my dad passed away after a five-month-long battle with a very aggressive type of melanoma, skin cancer. He was a lifelong Man City fan. You can imagine the friction that might have caused over the years and for so long.
41:36Jonathan Wilson:I would have wanted City to have pissed off for a bit and let Liverpool dominate, maybe like that Klopp team deserved. But there they were with accompanying text messages from dad any time they beat us over 90 minutes or over 38 games. It's funny how grief can change that. It's now a fond memory that for so long, my dad's and my team were the two top teams fighting for everything. And now I would not change a single moment or the exchanges that were had over it, pending the PSR findings, of course, he says. His two favorite players were Stones, who in dad's word was the epitome of the Rolls Royce and Bernardo Silva, who he affectionately called Bubblegum as the ball just stuck to his foot.
42:09Jonathan Wilson:I'm not sure if I'm writing on behalf of my dad to make sure these two greats of the modern era are acknowledged or for myself to acknowledge that grief in football does strange things. In a sport that's often passed down the generations from father to son, it must be so prominent for so many people, not just me. So thank you to John Stones and Bernardo Silva for the role you've played in my life, even if I hate the team you play for. And thank you, Dad, for making me fall in love with the game in the same way you did. It's a beautiful message, Freddie. Thank you for that.
42:35Max Rushden:Is there any talk of where Stones will go? I heard some Everton rumours, which would make sense, I guess. Sorry, I don't want to disparage Everton, but is he not a bit of a cut above Everton?
42:50Jonathan Wilson:I don't know. High-flying Everton? High-flying Everton. With the Everton Cup, Everton. They're not getting relegated. So I don't know is the answer. I'm too lazy to have sources, Barry. Reports in Spain he's willing to take a penny cut to join Barcelona, but Everton and Coventry also linked. So there you go. That's from the BBC. Mark says, Roy Hodgson spotted in the West Country klaxon. What a day at Scoops. This is on Scoops Western Supermare. a Facebook page, an ice cream shop. We were thrilled to welcome a very special guest, Roy Hodgson. Stop by for a visit. Football emoji. It was an absolute pleasure serving such a legend of the game from managing at the very top level to popping in for a sweet treat.
43:30Jonathan Wilson:He couldn't have been more lovely. Applause emoji. Moments like this make what we do even more special. Great people, great vibes, and of course, great ice cream. Ice cream emoji. Thanks for coming in, Roy. You're welcome back anytime. Hashtag scoops moments. hashtag special guest, hashtag Roy Hodgson, hashtag football legend, hashtag ice cream time, hashtag sweet treats, hashtag local love. And there's Roy looking very happy. He's having a great time, Roy. That's like one of Dan Bardell's Instagram posts. I was going to say, yes, Wilson. Have I told you about when I met Ria Ferdinand in an ice cream shop?
44:08Jonathan Wilson:You haven't, but we, listen, it's quite a short pod, so fill your boots.
44:12Barry Glendenning:I'm afraid to say he did not behave with dignity. It was in Baden-Baden in 2006. Yeah. And he jumped the king. He pushed in front of me. I was disgusted by him. And I'm afraid it confirmed some opinions I'd already held about him and have not changed since.
44:26Jonathan Wilson:Was it a chat and cut? Like, did he chat to somebody? Because there's a difference between just marching in front of you and maybe, I don't know, Wayne Rooney was there too and he sort of went to talk to Wayne Rooney and then it happened to be in front of you. No, just barged in front. And did you say, excuse me, Rio?
44:45Barry Glendenning:No, I didn't. I should have done, but I was still in my 20s then. I was a very young man. I didn't quite have the same...
44:55Barry Glendenning:What's the word?
44:56Max Rushden:Confidence.
44:57Barry Glendenning:Yes. I was thinking of a more negative word, but let's go with confidence, yes.
45:02Jonathan Liew:Were you expecting him to leap out with a camera crew and the World Cup wind-ups? Yeah.
45:09Jonathan Wilson:I mean, I've got to say, Johnny, that is i mean if he said and now we're going to prank football writer jonathan gilson by getting in front of him to order our one scoop of pistachio i just don't think that's going to get the hits they're expecting i don't know if any of you've seen this a video posted by someone called tom feeney going the problem with all the rochdale the york videos is just when you think you've seen every angle you spot a and then capital letters rochdale fan emptying their dead loved ones ashes on the center spot while celebrating their inverted commas winner of course before york went on to win afterwards it is inconclusive but there is somebody on the center spot with a plastic bag and like tipping it as you would tip ashes onto the center spot and then embracing someone but that is some moment to then go back to the crowd and then see york score a winning goal scattering ashes i don't know if any of you've done it but it's really difficult Is it?
46:06Jonathan Wilson:I mean, there's a Mel Brooks film, isn't it?
46:08Barry Glendenning:Yeah. There are a lot of them. Yeah. So I scattered my dad's ashes off the pier, off Roga Pier in Sunderland. And it wasn't a windy day by the standards of the North Sea, but there's always a breeze. So obviously the logic was I'll tip on the outside of the pier so that it goes out to sea. I'm just being swept back up the weir, back where he's come from, as it were. And most of it was on my trousers, then I'm just going in the washing machine. And then my mam's ashes, I scattered near a bit of forest near Ullswater in the Lake District. The sort of tipping was fine because it was sort of like a bank comes down and there's a bench with a view that you really liked.
46:49Barry Glendenning:And then just in front of the bench, it's quite a low wall. It drops quite suddenly to this field with cows in. So I was able to tip it over the wall into this sort of long grass. So there wasn't this sort of blowback effect. But then I went for a walk and I came back a couple hours later and there was a bit of wind. and there was a family sitting on the bench eating a picnic. And I was like, oh no. Like, you're probably eating the ass of my mom. That's not, well, no, what do I do?
47:15Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, I think you could have said something to Rio Ferdinand. I think even though you had more confidence at this time, you were better not to tell the family that, you know, amidst their ham sandwich was some small part of your mother. Anyway, it seems like a good place to end, doesn't it? Thank you, everybody. Thank you, Johnny. Cheers, Max. Thanks, Wilson. Cheers, thank you. Thanks, Baz. Thank you. Football Weekly is produced by Silence Great. Our executive producer is Joel Grove, and we'll be back tomorrow.
47:58Barry Glendenning:This is The Guardian.
48:03Thank you.