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In short
Football Weekly Episode Summary: Real Madrid’s Rocky Week and Crunch Time for Antonio Conte
Episode Overview In this episode of Football Weekly, host Robyn Cowen is joined by panelists Nicky Bandini, Philippe Auclair, Paul Watson, and Sid Lowe to discuss significant football developments across Europe, particularly focusing on Real Madrid's recent struggles and Antonio Conte's challenges at Napoli. The conversation also touches on various teams and players from the Premier League, Serie A, and Ligue 1.
Key Topics Discussed
Real Madrid's Recent Performance
- Goalless Draw: Real Madrid managed a goalless draw against Rayo Vallecano, marking the first time a team has kept a clean sheet against them in La Liga.
- Champions League Concerns: Following a defeat to Liverpool, there are rising concerns regarding the team's form and whether manager Xabi Alonso's approach is resonating with the players.
- Fan Expectations: The demanding nature of Real Madrid fans is highlighted, with some calling for changes in management, despite the team still being at the top of La Liga.
Antonio Conte’s Situation at Napoli
- Recent Struggles: Napoli is experiencing a downturn, suffering a string of disappointing results, including a draw and a loss against lower-ranked teams.
- Conte’s Comments: Conte has made controversial statements about needing 'heart transplants' for his players, indicating a lack of effort on the pitch.
- Injury Concerns: Key players like Kevin De Bruyne are missing, raising questions about the team's depth and performance.
Title Race in Serie A
- Inter and Roma: The title race in Serie A is tight, with Inter currently holding the top spot, but teams like Roma are performing well defensively despite injury challenges.
- Napoli’s Challenges: Napoli is struggling to find the net, and their title defense appears to be faltering as they occupy a lower position than expected.
Ligue 1 Developments
- Title Race Emergence: The panel discusses a surprisingly competitive Ligue 1, with PSG only two points clear at the top amidst injury concerns and tactical challenges.
- Emergence of Other Teams: Teams like Marseille and Strasbourg are performing well, adding excitement to the league.
FIFA Pro vs. FIFA
- Conflict Over Player Representation: A discussion on FIFA's creation of a players' forum as a means to sideline FIFPRO, the footballers' union, raises concerns about the representation and welfare of players.
Match Fixing in Turkey
- Crackdown on Corruption: There's significant news regarding match-fixing in Turkey, with a large number of officials and players being investigated and arrested.
- Systemic Issues: The panel discusses the implications of these findings on Turkish football and the trust in officials.
Key Takeaways
- Real Madrid's Form: The team is under scrutiny as they haven't displayed the expected dominance in recent matches, raising questions about their tactical approach.
- Napoli's Crisis: Antonio Conte's comments reflect deep-seated issues within Napoli, and their hopes for the season seem to be dwindling.
- Competitive Landscape: Both Serie A and Ligue 1 are shaping up to be more competitive than anticipated, creating intriguing narratives as the seasons progress.
- Player Welfare Concerns: The struggle for player representation continues, with potential repercussions for FIFA if they do not engage adequately with FIFPRO.
Conclusion This episode of Football Weekly offers a comprehensive analysis of the state of football across Europe, highlighting managerial challenges, player performances, and the broader implications of governance within the sport. The discussions provide insights into how clubs are navigating through critical periods and the dynamics at play in league competitions.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is The Guardian.
0:30Has the stench of Antonio Conte's Champions League record penetrated Napoli's league form? Which highlights show? Will Ivan Juric pop up in next after he's given the boot by Atalanta? And can his predecessor guide Roma to glory for the first time in 25 years? Remarkably, PSG are also making harder work of it in Ligue 1. Just two points clear after a last-minute win over Lyon. We'll talk Turkey and ask how many officials and players can you fit into one courtroom. Take your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.
1:06so mum and dad are away so just call me the babysitter where we'll be gorging on sweets staying up late and asking for a nominal fee for the pleasure so on the panel today Nikki Bandini good morning morning Robin bonjour Philippe bonjour Robin Paul Watson saw the international break signal in the sky and responded as ever came in a bit early sorry good stuff and uh joining us for his customary cameo in part one sid low who joined with a well what looked like a massive milkshake the size of his head but he assures it's pretty much it there's plenty of milk in it and it's been shaken so i suppose it's a milkshake Yeah.
1:50Is it high performance, would you say? Is it bollocks? That's the right answer. Sorry, good morning. I was supposed to say good morning there, wasn't I? Sorry. Lovely to see you all. Let's start with La Liga, shall we? So Real Madrid still top, but a goalless draw against Raul Vaicano, who were the first team to keep a clean sheet against Real Madrid in La Liga. And that was a follow up to their defeat to Liverpool in the Champions League. They're fairly demanding fans, aren't they, Sid? How has this gone down? Well, this has been a real release the hounds moment. It's incredible how quickly everyone's gone for Xabi Alonso and how quickly very specific people have gone for Xabi Alonso, which are the people who tend to be the harbingers of doom, who tend to be the people who've, how do I put this, who've been guided into a certain direction to have a word.
2:42And of course, part of the problem is that someone like Xabi Alonso knows that. He knows that this doesn't come purely in a vacuum. He knows that this isn't just a few fans totally losing their heads. And I think you see that in him a little bit. You see that that sense of, OK, this is more than just criticism. It does seem a little bit nuts to me, but it's true that Real Madrid, there hasn't been a kind of a flow about them. There hasn't been an excitement about them. And I think there is a little bit of a sense of Alonso trying to build a structure and an idea that maybe some of the players don't entirely buy into.
3:14Has he tried to change a lot then as he's come in? Well, I think that there is an idea of them playing higher up the pitch. There is an idea of there being, if you like, a clear identity to how they play. Whereas before, I mean, there was that great line from Drew Bellingham, which he suggested as something that made Real Madrid really good. But it actually sounded like a criticism of the manager, which, well, we play off the cuff. And I think what Alonso doesn't want them to do is to play off the cuff. He wants it to be a structure. And of course, in theory, everyone completely buys into this.
3:42Yeah, absolutely. Because if this team was well organised with the quality of players and so on, but of course there's the quality of players, some of whom quite like playing off the cuff and quite like that degree of freedom. And so there is a change there. I'll be honest with you, a few weeks ago, I was thinking Madrid are going to be boringly good this year. You know, they're going to structure games, they're going to be on top, they're never really going to give other teams a chance. And they might not always be fantastically exciting, but they're going to win loads. And then they got battered by Atletico Madrid in the derby.
4:07They won the Clasico, so everyone was happy about that, but they weren't particularly good at Anfield. They weren't that good this weekend. And there is a slight sense that it's not as exciting as it was. And then there's the other thing, which is the kind of the personal relationships. And of course, the thing that kind of overshadowed the Clasico, they beat Barcelona. This should have been a moment where everyone says, here it is, this is the team. You know, for the first time in four Clasicos, they've beaten Barcelona. But they had that moment when Vinicius went off and actually absolutely went at Alonso.
4:33And that doesn't look good. And it doesn't look good partly because it's then played out in public. I have a question, which I guess I'm still slightly forming in my own head, but I think that when it comes to the European context, and obviously that game against Liverpool, and observing it from the perspective of someone who's watching the Italian teams a lot, I think we've certainly got to a point where, I don't know whether to call it realism or an inferiority complex, but I think Italian teams, even when Inter are going to Champions League finals, there is an expectation that English clubs, because they are richer, they are wealthier, they are stronger, they're supposed to be on top.
5:07and so all the victories against them are victories for the underdog and when you're not able to beat them, it's almost a bit more expected. Now, Madrid sit in this different position, don't they? Because even though the Premier League is outspending the rest of Europe by three to one at this point, Madrid are the one team that are the exception that can sit atop the money league and can bring in these huge numbers. And I just wonder how much in that context, I suppose, like how the Liverpool performances view, Liverpool who aren't even playing that well in the Premier League at the moment and how much that just was like a real shape to the confidence of the club that actually, OK, hang on.
5:43But when we went and played the big boys from the other school, it was a bit different. Yeah, there's a couple of things here. One of them is, and this feeds into what we were talking about before, about the idea of people criticising Real Madrid. One of them is the idea that Madrid haven't yet played one of the big games. So you have the Atletico Madrid defeat where they lose 5-2. They have the Liverpool defeat where they only lose 1-0, but you look at the number of saves and Courtois and you think, oof, that could be 3 or 4. You have the Club World Cup game against PSG where they lose 4-0. And then you win the Clasico.
6:14And one of the big things about the Clasico was everyone said, here we go, this is a big game that Real Madrid have won. But at the same time, it comes in the context of Barcelona having players out, Barcelona not playing very well. And then so you get this post-Anfield, you get this feeling that, oh, could it actually be that it was more because Barcelona aren't that good than because Madrid really were? And that there's a reality. And then there's the broader context, which is that Premier League thing you're talking about. I haven't got the figure in front of me, but I think I'm right in saying that in seven Premier League against La Liga team games this season, it's been 6-1 to the Premier League, I think.
6:46And you're right, Real Madrid are the ones that should break that trend. But there's a much, much broader context here. And this speaks to the game in Miami. It speaks to the Super League project, which, bear in mind, was driven by Florentino Pettif. And in the background in all of that, and actually said explicitly for the first time, I think, by Javier Tebas around the Miami game, is the understanding that if we don't move, the Premier League is going to be the de facto Super League. Now, in theory, Madrid and Barcelona are always separate from that. But one of the reasons they want the Super League is they want it to lock in that power before it starts to get chipped away.
7:20And Madrid are conscious of that. And there is this thing. The thing is, it sometimes gets framed slightly differently. It's not just here's the Premier League running away from us. Here's the Premier League where you can have state-owned clubs, where you can have massive foreign investment. And of course, Madrid and Barcelona are member-owned clubs. And so one of the background discussions is the idea of what if we change the model? What if we invited foreign investment in, in some ways? And there's an AGM coming up for Real Madrid. There always is just around Christmas time. and I think it's perfectly plausible that Florentino Peres presents a project for a new structure of ownership at the club to invite in that foreign investment as part owners.
8:00Hasn't he actually already said that actually, Sid? I mean, or is it just leaks at the moment? No, it was funny because I think it was before last year's AGM, there were a couple of newspaper pieces saying, Florentino's going to announce this new model and then he didn't. And he thought, well, this is one of those cases of test the wall to see what people think. But there is no doubt that Madrid are looking into it and there was a suggestion from Florentino about how we structure the club. But it wasn't as direct as saying, right, we're no longer member-owned. I think this year we might actually get some meat on the bones there.
8:32I think we might get a proposal, which would be about bringing in foreign investment. And then, of course, it would have to be voted through. But Florentino's control of Real Madrid is such that it will get voted through. and no one really knows the mechanics of it. I mean, a very simple question. I've often thought this. When you reach a privatisation process of any business, in this case, Real Madrid is owned by its members. So if you're going to go and allow someone to buy into the club, do all the members get a dividend? Do they get to sell their shares? What are their shares worth? I mean, they could go for a kind of L 'Element model.
9:04I think that's the idea. That it wouldn't be 100%. Yes. Bayern has done that. Or, for example, Herta, you have got a holding company which is completely separate from the sporting club and in which you can have foreign investors and the rest of it. The other thing as well, the membership, it's only a small proportion of them who actually vote, don't they? And it's the ones who are in Florentino's pockets already. So he could push it through if he wanted to. Oh, 100%. So everyone votes in theory in presidential elections, but there haven't been presidential elections for how long is it now? Off the top of my head, I'm thinking 12, 13 years.
9:40What happens at the AGMs is you have, if you like, representative members. And as you say, the representative members, it's largely controlled by the club. There's almost no way that anything doesn't get through that AGM. Florentino could propose changing the name to FC Barcelona in Madrid and it would get through. It would be highly amusing. We should test that. Let's move on to Barcelona. They beat Celta Vigo 4-2. means they're three points behind Real Madrid. Yeah, producer Joel said that he felt when the camera reveals the Barcelona defence for Celta's first goal, he thought it was the midfield.
10:15I mean, this is a high line. This is a high line, Sid. And we saw that against Club Bruges. And I'm wondering about, did Hansi Flick, did he kind of posit the Ange defence without maybe mate, or I don't know what he'd say, that it's just how we are? He doesn't say mate, no, sadly. It'd be quite good if he did sort of morph into that. I think Hansi Flick actually said something I think it was, you know, I'm trying to remember if it was the pregame press conference postgame. I think it was pregame. And he was asked about this high line, which, of course, has become the focal point of everything.
10:45And one of the reasons it's a focal point of everything is because it's so visibly obviously there. You know, you can't not see it. And I think Hansi Flick's argument actually is you lot don't see it. You see the line, but you don't see the actual point. You don't see the wood for the trees, for want of a better phrase. But before the game, he'd been asked about it. He said, yeah, we have a problem with dropping too deep sometimes. times essentially he said you know what it does so you're what but post game and then post game he had a sort of a bit of a giggle and he said oh I was going to say something about experts and ex pros but I don't think I will because there's enough noise around this already now Hansi Flick's point and I'm gonna here we go I'm gonna risk making myself look stupid here I'm gonna back him a little bit because I don't think it's as simple as saying there's the line and I do think we see the line and it's not necessarily the fact of playing a high line that's the problem I think It's the fact of not executing it very well, not timing it as well as they did last year, not putting the pressure on people like they did last year, allowing people to play passes when last year they didn't even allow them to play the pass.
11:40And so the fact that the line's there never resulted or very rarely resulted in the ball going through them. Why? Because they weren't allowing that pass to be played. And when the pass was played, they timed it right and they were catching people offside. The example for me, which is perfect on this, is last year's Clasico against Real Madrid, the first one of the season, the Barcelona won 4-0. We were thinking, wow, they're living dangerously. They're under pressure. Real Madrid are going to score 10 here because Real Madrid kept on running through. Barca caught them offside 12 times. Now, it's tempting, of course, to look at that and say, of course, you were lucky because you kept catching them offside.
12:09Or you could say, you know what? You're really good at this. And so Barcelona's argument would be it might look like we're vulnerable, but actually what we're doing is protecting ourselves from the vulnerability by playing this way. Now, what's happened this year is they're not doing it very well. And it is true. There's no two ways about it. It is true that when you watch a game and you see the same chance happen again and again and again, There is a bit of you think, just pull the line back, man. It's not that hard. But I think Flick is entitled to say that actually we're being a bit simplistic when we look at it purely in terms of where the line is positioned.
12:40So we went for, you've never played the game, rather than that's just the way we are, mate. I think he went for, we're not doing some of the things right and we need to improve that. But yeah, and also there was that line a little bit, a little bit angibou in that he was sort of saying things, this is the way we play and we're not going to change that and this is what we want to do. And to be fair, they did win a treble last year doing this, you know, for all the flaws. They won quite a lot of football matches. Yeah, no, that's fair riposte, I'd say. Marcus Rashford with a couple of assists. 37-year-old Lewandowski making Harry Kane look like a wunderkind with a hat trick.
13:14I guess my question is, you know, we're talking about investment and things like that. Barcelona just seem to just fashion up more levers and they have this embarrassment of riches. I mean, but how is this viewed? because I just wonder, I was making the comparison to Manchester City, you know, we're saying, when are we going to see what's going to happen here? Are they just going to kind of get away with it and not too many questions are asked about how they're actually doing this? Right, it's such a broad question that we could be here all day. I mean, the argument, there's two slightly different things.
13:44And one, of course, is your financial position in reality, what you can do, what money you've got, who you can bring in. The other is what you can do in terms of complying with La Liga's financial fair play rules. and I think it's a really important point that needs to be made certainly to kind of a UK or a non-Spanish audience which is to say the big difference with the way that financial fair play is applied in Spain is in Spain it's applied ahead of the event so you're not fined or punished for breaking the rules there is a limit put in place and if you can't fit comply with that limit we won't let you register the player you might have already gone and bought him but we won't let you register him now this is where the debate comes in with Barcelona but Barcelona are finding players ways of registering players because they're challenging it or they're taking advantage of loopholes or taking advantage of rules so for example you know signing a player because Ter Stegen gets injured if the injury is over four months you're allowed to use that money in accountancy terms to pay for another player and so last year for example you had the industry of the industry sorry the injury of Andreas Christensen which is what allowed them to sign Danny Oldemann but only until the winter and then they had to find another way of signing him then they went to the to what's essentially the sports ministry and said that this is wrong and And the sports ministry said, yeah, OK, then he can play.
14:57And so the answer to your, the short answer to your question is what does people think? Is that people who are in favour of Barcelona saying, well, these rules are rubbish, aren't they? They're really restrictive for everybody. And people who are against Barcelona are going, look at that lot, cheating again. And this, unfortunately, is the nature of everything in Spain. I think there is a much broader question. I think there are some doubts. I think it's probably worth saying that the levers, this is the example I always use. And I don't want it to be an example that kind of justifies everything or lets Barcelona off the hook.
15:22But there is this idea that says, well, Barcelona always get away with it. They always get the players. There's never any punishment. They always get the players they want. Yeah, they did lose a guy called Leo Messi because they couldn't play for him. Very true. That's a very good point, indeed. Just wrapping up the La Liga situation, Atletico Madrid on 25 points after a good win with the beautiful mullet of Antoine Griezmann. It's brilliant. It's a classic. He's Patrick Swayze. It's just completely amazing. Get him some pottery, yeah. Absolutely. It's fantastic. He'd only been on the pitch 34 seconds as well when he scored.
15:57I mean, he's still the best player they've got in terms of talent, although Julien Alvalde is playing fantastically well. He obviously can't play every game, but he came on and scored twice at weekend. And Atletico Madrid, after a really difficult start to the season and after that classic debate that we always seem to have with them is, are they evolving? Can they change their identity? Why aren't they more attacking? They've been more attacking. They've played much more front-footed this year. They're still only one once away from home, and that's still the doubt. but they're playing really, really well at home.
16:23And Villarreal in third, is that a surprise and can they stay the course? It may be a surprise that they're ahead of one of the other three but it's absolutely not a surprise that they are the fourth team in Spain. They're the fourth team in Spain in terms of budget, in terms of continuity, in terms of the quality of the squad. You know, this summer they spent more money than anyone except Real Madrid, albeit, let's use it, shall we, the old net spend, they actually made a profit because they sold, of course, Terno Barri went, Jeremy Pino went, There's a third one that went who was quite big money.
16:51I've forgotten who it is now. But anyway, three big, biggish players went and they brought Mikhail Talzzi in. They've spent well, but their best player at the weekend was Gerard Moreno, who's 33, always injured, come back and he's still better than everyone else. And he scored against Espanyol, his former club, whose fans gave him a nice standing ovation. Can I just ask one quick one from the other end of the table, Sid? Valencia, obviously, just above the relegation zone, feel a bit like a club stuck in stasis at the moment. I don't know if there's realistic fear that they could end up going down this season?
17:19Do you know what? I had a moment of panic there where you said a question from the other end of the table. I was thinking, I really don't want to talk about the team that's bottom at the moment. Albeit the team that's bottom at the moment that does have friends in very, very high places with the mayor of New York, it turns out, a shareholder at Real Oviedo. Anyway, that's me, you know, shamelessly crow buying Real Oviedo into everything I possibly can. Valencia, actually, I thought, played pretty well against Betis. But there is genuine fear, of course, because this isn't new. You know, Betis is, what do you call it in English?
17:48A decapitalisation. They keep selling their best players, basically. You know, Mbamadashvili is only the most recent example. Every summer there's a reduction in costs. Every summer the best players go. I think they've got enough good footballers and they've got, in terms of atmosphere, one of the best grounds in Spain, a noisy fan base, which has been their salvation in previous years. Last year, Corbaran came in and rescued them. There's a feeling now that that's not really working. Yeah, there's absolutely no doubt that they are bad enough to be in a relegation battle. And it would be massive if they went down and a real pity as well.
18:21And, you know, I should use the two words that I haven't used yet to explain this. And it's not necessarily this simple, but I think on some levels, at least, it is this simple. And the answer to this is Peter Lim. His ownership of the club has been absolutely disastrous. Sid, thank you so much for that. We'll leave you to finish your milkshake. You need something to wash down those CBD gummies, don't you? So, yeah, we'll go forward from there. Thank you so much, Sid Lowe, out in Spain for us. Before we go any further, we, as you might have noticed, are nominated for Best Podcast at the FSAs, and we need your vote.
18:56So, yeah, Google FSA Awards 2025. You can find links on our Instagram, Blue Sky. Max's ex-account, which is getting more and more incendiary, he labelled last year's ramble win suspicious. He stopped short of insurrection. Did he refuse to go to the ceremony? did he do it go the full vinicius yeah quite possibly yeah yeah no that's right although yeah the fly from australia might have had something to do that i was just going to say he's he he is also campaigning for the fifa peace prize um but uh philippe we demand free and fair elections of course you're an advocate for that but we need everyone to vote for the guardian don't we absolutely everybody should vote for the guardian and we actually are going to vote for ourselves.
19:38I was really frowned upon to say that in the old days. That's awful. You should not do that. I cannot tell you who I'm voting for. Well, I know who I'm voting for and you know who I'm voting for and you know who you should be voting for. There you go. So vote for us. Be on the right side of history, everyone. Plenty of members of the Football Weekly family nominated to Lucy Ward, Sir Pachinson, Guardian Women's Football Weekly, Sophie Downey not the top 20. You only have until midday, Monday the 17th of November. So vote now and vote often is our message to you. So that'll do for part one. In part two, we'll head to Italy and talk about Serie A.
20:23Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Serie A is super, super tight. Five teams within three points of each other. So Inter top on 24 points, ahead of Roma only on goal difference. then it's Milan, Napoli in fourth and Bologna. We'll start with Napoli, Nicky. And yeah, as mentioned in the intro, so a disappointing goal to straw against ITRAC Frankfurt in the Champions League, an even more disappointing loss away at Bologna, having drawn nil-nil with Como the week before. And Antonio Conte has taken this well. I mean, in his customary style, actually. Some amazing quotes post this game.
21:02Yeah, talking about his players needing heart transplants because in his opinion, that's what it's coming down to at this point. It's just a lack of heart from his players. I mean, it was... But Nicky, if they had heart transplants, they wouldn't be able to play. They would be convalescing. It's a fair point. I mean, with De Bruyne and Lukaku already missing, does he really want even more players heading to the infirmary? I don't know. But it was an extraordinary game, really, against Bologna when you think that Bologna had to sub in a 17-year-old keeper, for Massimo Pessina in the eighth minute.
21:35And really, he didn't have a lot to do after that. You think, gosh, okay, this kid's coming in. Here's a chance to throw a lot at him right away. And it didn't happen. And it's funny because it feels like only a beat ago that we were talking about them beating Inter 3-1, really big result on the surface for the title race. And it was the game where Kevin De Bruyne scored a penalty and then immediately is clutching his hamstring and goes off. And to be honest with you, Napoli played well after he went off. McTominay scored a fantastic goal and people are going, maybe is it going to be better for them without De Bruyne, who was the big showpiece signing of the summer and as brilliant as he is and as well as he's played.
22:22I don't think anyone was saying he's played badly, but maybe just letting McTominay get back into his slightly more central position and be the player he was last season, maybe that's a good thing for the team. Well, it hasn't proved to be. They haven't scored now in three games. They beat Lecce after that 1-0, but the last three games they haven't scored in all competitions. That attack really is starting to look like a bit of a genuine disaster for them. Obviously, Lukaku's injury is what it is. He's out until probably the middle of December is what we're expecting at the moment. Hoyland came in at the last minute in the summer and had a bright start.
22:57But actually, if anyone needs De Bruyne, I think it was Hoyland. Hoyland was making some real hay with the balls that De Bruyne was playing for him. De Bruyne, you could see, was really gearing his game around Hoyland and getting the ball to him in the way that he wanted to have it. Lorenzo Luca, who they signed for, well, it's on loan to start off with technically, but it's going to add up to somewhere between probably about 35 and 40 million euros. It's a good amount of money for a club like Napoli. Again, Italian football doesn't spend like English football does. That's a good chunk of change.
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23:27and he's the last two games when they've needed a goal he's been given something like 11 minutes off the bench he's he's that far out of favor already with Conte so it's really it's really looking quite ugly for them up front and Conte again with these heart transplant comments also casually dangling that thing he dangled a lot last season which is well last season it was you remember this team finished 10th last season this season is you remember we finished 10th a year and a bit ago um it feels it feels like a bit of a a very um tense moment i think and and look to be absolutely clear conte won the league title last season their fourth ever there's not a not even a whisper of this being something that's he's in trouble but it is certainly not um not looking so bright from them from the point of view of their title defense especially when you have got But I suppose that actually I suppose I could reverse this and say the good news for him in this title defence is, while there are lots of teams going for it, none of these teams are looking at all perfect or like they're about to run away with it at the moment.
24:37So for now, at least, it's quite a messy situation at the top of Serie A. Yeah, we've talked a lot about Inter and Napoli. We haven't given Roma much airtime. I'm really interested in how they're doing, actually, because Gasparini had obviously been at Atalanta for so, so long and they started so, so well. I mean, do you believe they could stay the course and be title challengers? Because it's been a hell of a long time. It has. And what's fascinating with Roma to me is that actually some of the things I've just been saying about Napoli, right? You could say them about Roma. Who have Roma got to play up front this weekend?
25:07It ended up with Tommaso Baldanzi, who's a 22-year-old midfielder, having to play up front because everyone is injured. Evan Ferguson, who they signed in the summer and who started kind of brightly. I had high hopes for him, but fundamentally he's still running into the Evan Ferguson problem, which is for a long time now, he just hasn't really scored goals. And that's pretty important when you're playing at number nine. Artem Dovbic, who I can't remember exactly how many he had, he did get into double figures up front for Roma last season, but again, hasn't been as quite as explosive as everyone hoped for him when he arrived from La Liga.
25:40He's now injured as well. He got injured at the weekend. Paolo Dybala, I mean, listen, if you're relying on Paolo Dybala not to be injured, then you've got a problem because Ispala Di Bala is injured about half the time or more. He's brilliant when you've got him, but he's going to be injured a lot. So the attack is mostly just not there. And Sule as well, who's absolutely been brilliant this season. First of all, he's not really a number nine. He's a fantastic footballer. He's not a number nine. And also been dealing with injuries. So there's just nobody there to lead the line. And yet they are still joint top of the table.
26:10They are still winning games. They did it the weekend, beating Udinese 2-0. Now, the obvious answer to that is the defence has been great. They've only conceded five goals this season. I think that's the fewest across what we, I guess, still slightly call the top five European leagues. I'm never sure if that's a good measure anymore, but it's very convenient journalistically to talk about five European leagues, isn't it? They have been really tight at the back. And it is, of course, the name I haven't said yet, Gian Piero Gasparini. Success story so far, really. The guy who made Atalanta into this over nine years essentially took them from being a mid-table club famous for producing young talent into being a genuine European force, into winning the Europa League, qualifying for the Champions League in four of the last six seasons.
26:55He's been due this chance to, I suppose, lead one of the traditionally bigger clubs. If anything, Roma is on the low end of that big club scale because, as you said, they don't really win league titles. I mean, they have, but it's not a thing they do very often it was definitely time for him to have this opportunity he had the one at inter years ago that barely even got to have because they kicked him out so quickly before he'd had a chance to settle in even though it was a very bad start it feels like a vindication for him at the moment it feels like a vindication for him and his ideas also of course for Claudio Dañeri who was there last season did incredible work to get them really close to the Champions League places last season after taking up in a really messy state.
27:38And I think when you look at defensive success like this, it's hard not to think, well, there's a bit of Ranieri's work in there too. They certainly aren't the swashbuckling team that Atalanta have been under Gaspedini. They certainly are still playing in a more reserved fashion than that. But I do think that is also just Gaspedini being a very smart coach and going, well, look, I haven't got an attack right now. So you play to your strengths, don't you? and I think he's doing a fantastic job. I don't know if they've got that absolute quality to take it all the way this season. I feel like when I look at these teams, it's really hard to look past the quality Inter have and the depth Inter have.
28:19They do just look like the best team on paper. They are showing it in the Champions League where they've been by far the best performing Italian club. It feels like in the end they come out on top but equally, it's very often been true that the team that concedes the fewest goals wins the league in the end. And right now Roma are really not going to see any many goals at all. Nicky, I was going to ask, look at Roma potentially having a title push and this gap being going forward. Are they under some sort of transfer ban? Like, are they able to make signings in this window? Roma? Yeah. I don't believe Roma are under a full transfer ban.
28:55Lazio are under full transfer ban, which is the other half of Roma. So they could go for someone. So Roma could, because I was just thinking, like, who could they bring in, do you think? Who's the answer to this problem? Because they clearly do just need someone up front who can sort of take them to that Scudetto level. Yeah, well, it's never an easy answer, is it? And not a transfer ban, but they did spend extremely lavishly under Jose Mourinho in that chapter. And they certainly aren't going to be throwing cash around freely this winter window. and what's nice I suppose in contrast to Conte is you don't hear Gasparini going I want x y and z he gets on with it who is a centre forward who scores a lot of goals you can have in the middle of a season for not much money that's that's a question I bet a lot of supporting directors around Europe are asking there isn't there aren't easy answers to those sorts of questions you have to you have to get creative I don't know if someone else has got an idea but I don't have one I'm afraid on that front well it's not gone so well for Atalanta the team that Gasparini left We'd only just learned that Ivan Juric was coaching them and now he's gone.
30:03So it'll be very interesting to see where he pops up next. This sort of career path Southampton, Atalanta, question mark. Not sure if anyone's got to deposit any ideas. But I mean, we've done brilliant analysis then from Sid and from Nicky. But Paul, this is one of the greatest things I've seen in a long, long time. Let's talk about Yeri Mina. You brought this to the table. It is poetry in motion. Take it away. Honestly, this kind of made Saturday and Serie A worth it. Because Saturday's Serie A was so bad, it almost brought about a kind of existential crisis. Like these nil-nil draws. Nil-nil draft and nil-nil draw.
30:37But this Como-Cagliari game, which was otherwise quite hard watching. You know, Cagliari had made it very clear they were coming for a point. They got a point. But the moment of the match was watching Alvaro Morata having to ask to be subbed off. Because Yerimina had just so comprehensively shithoused him. so you could kind of see this building that Mina is one of those defenders who will just wind you up wind you up and Morata was getting nowhere really from from him and then suddenly there's this moment in about I think an hour in where a ball's played through Morata's not going to get it you know he's not going to get it but he has to chase and Mina looks over his shoulder sees where Morata's going to run and just very very clearly and obviously runs in a way that Morata's going to just touch him and he goes down like a sack of spuds Morata gets the yellow card and Morata's response is just I can't deal with this I've got to be subbed off I think it's it reminds me a bit now as a parent I've got two kids and it reminds me of a moment I get with them where you're just being outplayed by those two kids and you're losing your temper and you just have to say I just say to my wife that's it I'm coming off here and he's just had that moment he's like I've got to go for my own good for the good of everyone I've got to go and it and after the game I saw they did an interview with Mina and sort of said, you know, you know, what was going on.
31:52And he gave this quote, he said, I think he says, I go hard into every challenge and I don't give a shit whether that's against my mum, my wife or my daughter. Jesus. Wow. So great defender. Not so sure I would want him in my family, but, you know. Was Morata actually subbed? Yeah, he was. He said, can I come off? And he took him off, which is amazing, really. 60 minutes into a game that's nil-nil and he's one of your main chances of scoring a goal. But he's gone. It just reminded me of when Papu Gomez was at Atalanta and posting videos of himself playing football with his son who can't have been older than like four or so on his Instagram.
32:35And it was like proper two-footed on the beach, like not holding back full two feet into his kid and sending him up. On Roma, really quickly, just to be completely accurate on what you said, they're definitely not under a transfer ban, Roma. They are still under financial fair play restrictions, which mean they have to be within certain loss limits. I believe they can't have a bigger than€60 million deficit until the end of 2027. That sounds like a lot. It can easily get up to those numbers. But yeah, they can't spend lavishly in the window. They can spend, but they can't go crazy. I just think Yerimina should get a trophy for that performance.
33:16It's absolutely unbelievable. To get someone to... Morata should present it to him as well. Yeah. Now that would be a dynamic I need to see. Yeah. I just think, how many players in their career can say, I got someone asked to be subbed off? I mean, it is incredible. Absolutely incredible. What a feather in the cap. To some extent, though, isn't it quite impressive self-awareness from Morata? Because he has absolutely let it get into his head. But a lot of people would just stay there and keep getting more and more wound up. He's kind of gone, OK, I've just been an idiot and I need to get out of here before I'm even more of an idiot.
33:48Ashley Cole has said that Cristiano Ronaldo was once asked to be subbed off back in 2006 when they subbed Chelsea-Manchester United because Cole had been at him all game and gave him a really bad reducer. and Ronaldo, for the only time in his career, actually asked to be subbed and was subbed by Alex Ferguson. Now, I've wondered if it was because he had actually been injured in this, but actually called his adamant is because of his shithousery and it had really got him in his pocket. And I have to say, when I think, the only other player I can think of who asked to be subbed is Cristiano Ronaldo, there's something that doesn't sound quite right here.
34:28No, no. He's not exactly the kind of player you would associate with that. No, Ronaldo and Morata seem very, very different characters. Yes. Very different. Yeah, interesting duo. I think that'll do part two. In part three, we'll begin with a title race in France. Not often we get to say that. Hello, I'm Max Rushton, an Englishman in Australia, the host of the Guardian Football Weekly podcast. But for the next few months, I'm also bringing you a new show, the Guardian Ashes Weekly. And I'm Geoff Lemon, Guardian Australia's cricket writer. in the coming weeks I'll be travelling all around Australia to every Ashes test city to follow the battle for cricket's oldest, grandest prize.
35:05We'll be watching every ball, every nick, every catch every cover drive, every bit of sandpaper, you know, you know. And every terrible joke that doesn't need to be repeated that many times, we'll have all the best commentary we'll have all the best analysis from Guardian cricket experts in England, in Australia, coming to you. So join me and Geoff throughout the series for every episode of The Guardian's Ashes Weekly on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.
35:38Welcome back to The Guardian Football Weekly. So let's talk Ligue 1 and Philippe, an actual title race we have on our hands. PSG, do you believe they will get there in the end or do we think we could have an upset here? To be honest, you know what? I don't know. I mean, it's the tightest race that we've had for 15 years now. They are top, but there's only two points in it at the moment. And at the moment, we've got seven teams in seven points after 12 games, which is very, very unusual to say the least. The reason why I think that we might be onto something is because PSG are at the moment caught in a kind of spiral of injuries, lack of energy lack of resources I mean player resources of course which they're finding quite hard to get out of in a way it's as if there hadn't been an interlull so to speak between the two seasons and in fact there hasn't been because they were at the club world cup they played in the final then they went on holidays they came back and Luis Enrique didn't have a chance to actually do a pre-season and when they started playing players started to get injured and at the weekend I mean they were very lucky I mean it was an absolute cracker of a game by the way at Olympique Lyon it was absolutely brilliant and they did win very late on 95th minute a corner kick at the near post scored after Lyon had been reduced to 10 men just 2 minutes beforehand with Terlio Fico being sent off and 3-2 for PSG but it was so hard And the problem, they were missing Ashraf Hakimi, Ousmane Dembele, the ballant door, Nuno Mendes and Desiree Douai.
37:26That's four players you would expect to be in the starting lineup. And the problem is that every time these players have come back, they've had another little nickel, another little injury, which means that other players like Varaskelia or Barcola are being used far too much. And that they too are really playing in the orange, if not the red zone. and every time you think they're going to get back some players, no, there's another one being injured. And it's going on and on and on like this all the time. And you think that's a bit tricky, especially when you're PSG, you're defending a European title at the same time.
38:01You have to play on all fronts and they don't quite have the resources at the moment in terms of players. And we're seeing the result. They're drawing too many games. The others are losing more games, but PSG are drawing too many games. They're really struggling. that and some people are actually starting to question which is crazy Luis Enrique's management of player time but he doesn't have much of a choice when suddenly you know you're missing four of your first team players and the thing is is that there are some other teams around PSG which not only are getting good results but are really fun to watch and I have to say this is the funnest season for a long time in Ligue 1 because Marseille obviously is strong, we know that one of the weekends, 3-0 against Brest, that's fine.
38:51Strasbourg is a bit of a big surprise and not necessarily a nice surprise because Strasbourg is basically Chelsea under another name and that you know that the players who are at Strasbourg who will do well will end up at Samford Bridge and not all the supporters are happy about that but they're playing well they won against Lille, won another big team over the weekend 2-0 with Emmanuel Imaga the Dutch player scoring twice and the big story of course as well, this weekend was lost another cracker of a game at Monaco, so kind of top of the table clash and the stadium in Monaco was about 12 times as loud as usual because hundreds, probably thousands of lost supporters had actually crossed the whole country to be there it was amazing the atmosphere I've never said that before in my life the atmosphere at the Luido Stadium was amazing and they didn't travel for nothing because they saw a really great performance by their team, Merced Lance really with some high, high quality goals and some players you know, do you remember Thauvin?
39:58Valor Thauvin? Oh yes who famously turned up I think in a tux at Newcastle if I'm not mistaken for a game in a tuxedo suit. And he's back and he's playing very, very well indeed. And Wesley Said had an absolutely superb game as well. And they won 4-1. So the result is that we've got a really tight league with teams performing extremely well. And one team probably underperforming, that one team is PSG. Now, I've just described to you the ingredients of a proper title race. How much do you think is fatigue from not just the season they have, but then the Club World Cup in the summer? I do think this feels like for certain clubs, it's really having an impact more than others.
40:42And also, is Luis Enrique, is he talking about that or is that kind of frowned upon? He's not got into that kind of discourse. He's not trying to find excuses or whatever. He's not that kind of manager. but it's obvious when you see the performance against Bayern as well and you can see that these are players who are absolutely knackered also because they do play a high energy game when you look at the Marquinhos we saw against Bayern it was just like you think this is not possible it's not the same player and he's exhausted and he's not the only one to be exhausted others are not quite as good as they've been even Vitinha absolutely adore Vitinha but is not quite at the same level.
41:25And they're really struggling. And the other thing is that those injuries they've got, they're not short-term injuries because we've got the international break coming. I'm actually not sure how many of those missing PSU players are going to be back for the last run of games before Christmas. And it's absolutely obvious that there is a... this is also the impact and the consequence of the club world cup and of going to the very end of the club world cup and not having time to train properly and especially not to have the time to do proper physical preparation we know it's a recipe for a disaster physical preparation is absolutely indispensable and they had none or almost none and they're paying for it in a similar vein philip can you talk us through fifa pro versus fifa well um now that's pretty amazing because in fact you have got FIFA is really annoyed, or Gianni Infantino is really annoyed when anybody else wields any kind of power in the world of football.
42:28Now, FIFPRO, which is the trade union of trade unions, has 65 ,000 professional footballers as members, normally should wield a lot of power because these are the guys who are on the pitch, right? And Infantino and FIFA have been trying to sideline FIFA Pro for as long as I can remember, to be absolutely honest. And in particular, when it comes to, well, we were talking about the Club World Cup, Nicky. You remember what FIFA Pro said about the Club World Cup and the calendar and the schedule saying, it's crazy, we're asking too much for our players. So there are injuries. I mean, we're not respecting the recommendations, the medical recommendations of the amount of time that you should rest and so forth.
43:13And FIFA has always has said the right things, but basically kept FIFPRO at an arm's length. And now going a little bit further, they've created FIFA, you know, just the way they've created the FIFA Peace Prize, so they can give a prize to Donald Trump on the 5th of December. Or Max Rushton. Or Max Rushton. Or Max Rushton. This is very true. Can we send nominations for that as well? Because I'm very happy to do so. they have created a players forum which is basically they decided okay what we're going to do because we don't want to work with the people who are representative of the actual players so we'll start our own not it's not a trade union our own forum and we'll bring in the people we want and then we'll pretend they're representative of the players because there are legends amongst these people like George Weah for example is there which is a shame but there you go and so they're bringing those people and then they they published this statement after a meeting in in rabat in morocco saying that they had done all this talk about player welfare and this and that you think hold on a minute fifa weren't there how can they talk about this well it's because fifa has created the players forum you know which is astonishing so you know you're fed up with your opposition.
44:33Okay. So let's say you're Keir Starmer, you're fed up with the conservatives who are still in the opposition at the moment. So you decide I'm going to create my alternative conservative party, but all the members would be chosen by me. So that's basically the work, the way that Jenny has been working around the problem. And FIFPRO replied with a statement, which I have to say was a bit on the weak side, because obviously FIFPRO has got a nuclear option and the nuclear option is to tell their players, you know what? FIFA competitions, you don't play in them. We're in a World Cup year. You carry on like this, FIFA.
45:08You shouldn't, this players forum should be disbanded now. You've got to talk to us. We are the true representatives. If you don't, simple. We ask, you know, you don't have the, you know, you cannot demand of us that we do nothing and accept to be basically annihilated. Their statement doesn't go as far as that. The nuclear option, the strike action, which has been talked about for so long. Remember, Diego Maradona was talking about it. And Eric Cantona was talking about it. And, you know, it's been happening for a very long time, but it's never been used properly at international level. And they've got this option, but they've decided not to exercise it for the time being.
45:51But the problem, Robin, and I'm really serious when I say that, and I've talked to a few contacts at FIFPRO, is that if they do not react in an actually more meaningful way, this forum, players forum, which at the moment we're laughing about, this kind of Potemkin village of players, could actually become the main stakeholder as far as player power is concerned for FIFA. Representative of nobody, but the main interlocutor, the protagonist from the player's side, which would completely sideline FIFA Pro and actually, for me, condemn it as a representative trade union. So it's really serious. It's really quite impactful.
46:28And well, let's watch this space, but it's not good. Pretty remarkable story. Another one to go through today is Turkey. Paul, every time I look at this, there's been more people arrested. Let me go across what's happening here. Referees, players. I mean, it's insane, isn't it? Yeah, I'm absolutely no expert on this. I'm sure Philippe knows a huge amount more than I do. But as you say, the numbers are what's so staggering with this. And the one thing I saw, and I had to check this a lot of times. I'm still not sure this makes sense. It said one referee alone placed 18 ,227 bets. One referee. It sounds like he did get cheering the games.
47:12Yeah, right. It's like in play, in play throw-in. Surely how is that not flagging something up somewhere? Yeah, it's staggering. The numbers are absolutely staggering. And the thing that I always feel is Turkey is not exactly a place where referees have been treated without suspicion. Turkey seems like one of these countries where literally all the time everyone is saying the referees are crooked. So surely now this is going to be a bit of a hammer blow to a nation where it's hard to convince people the referees aren't against them already. I don't know how they ever come back from this, really, to be honest.
47:46The extent of the crackdown is quite extraordinary. I mean, this is very much, by the way, a crackdown which is ordered from the very top. Okay. It's not just the Turkish Federation waking up, smelling the coffee, decided something, because everybody knows that match fixing is a huge problem in Turkey. And it's something which has been going on in the background for months, because it's not illegal to bet on games in Turkey, as long as you do it with the national operator, which is IDA. Everything else is illegal. and in fact criminalized. And also referees and other officials are prohibited from having betting accounts.
48:29Now I've got the numbers, I've written them down because they are absolutely astonishing. There are 571 officials who work in professional leagues throughout Turkey. Professional league here, we're talking about the four top levels, basically. 571. 371 have a betting account out of 571, which is, of course, totally prohibited. So 149 have already been suspended from 8 to 12 months. 19 were arrested, 17 referees plus the president of EOSPOR, the club from the Super League, Murat Özkaya. And we just heard that seven have been remanded in custody, plus the president as well. and the number of players, I mean, I also, just like you, Paul, I thought this number must be wrong.
49:21The players involved, 1 ,024 professional players are involved. 1 ,024. 27 in the Super League, including two from Geteleta Saray, two from Besiktas and one from Trabzon Sports, so not exactly small clubs. 77 in the Turkish equivalent of the championship. 282 in the equivalent of League One. 629 in the equivalent of League 2 which is basically who doesn't have a betting account and the problem here I mean this is the major red flag is that the lower you go into any kind of league the greater the risk of match fixing becomes because obviously you know fixing Fenerbahce Galatasaray good luck doing that mate but if you're fixing a fourth division game that nobody's really paying much attention to that's much easier So it's absolutely incredible.
50:16I mean, what's coming out of it? And there are new developments every day, Robin. And to be honest, it might be that what Turkish football need is like, is this massive purge. It's something which is completely unprecedented. I don't think there's, unlike, well, it's a bit like Mina Morata, you know, basically it's unprecedented to see anything like this. That many players. I mean, assuming what's going to happen to the league? this is then going to be literally youth boys and no referee. I don't know. You need referees. You need referees. Maybe they're going to ship them in. I don't know. I have no idea.
50:52But we don't have the identity of the referees who've actually been jailed, remanded in custody. We don't know who they are yet. I mean, sure, it's going to have a huge impact. But this, I mean, to be absolutely honest, who is surprised? Not many people. Yeah, we're definitely the tip of the iceberg, aren't we? Paul, it is the international break. What's going to catch your eye over the next week or so? Oh, yeah, that's a very good question. I was keeping quite a close eye on Kosovo, actually. I think Kosovo are suddenly in a very unexpected situation, partly because of Sweden's dismal campaign.
51:29But Kosovo are within, well, one good result, really, of securing a playoff spot. There is a route where they could actually qualify for the World Cup automatically. it requires a little bit more unusual results happen in their favour. But it could go to the point where the Crucial game is their last game against Switzerland at home. And that in itself is quite an interesting fixture because of the huge links between the two countries, obviously, and the number of players of Kosovar heritage that have played for Switzerland. And, you know, that would be a really poignant moment if those two teams play with potentially World Cup qualification on the line or maybe more likely just Kosovo needing to secure that playoff spot.
52:11Yeah, that'll do for today. We're all off to, I think we should all try and channel our inner Yerry Mina today and try and get someone to, I don't know, that's a bit cruel actually, isn't it? Yeah, I just think that the sheer force of, you know, doing something, being so annoying that someone needs to take themselves away from the situation. Again, I just, what a man. What a man. I think that's the main takeaway from this one. But thank you so much for your time, Nikki. Thanks, Robin. Thank you, Philippe. Thank you very much. And thank you, Paul. Thanks, Robin. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove and our executive producer is Danielle Stephens.
52:55This is The Guardian.