Rio’s teenage kick caps a thriller at St James’ Park – Football Weekly

22:52Jonathan Liew:From 30 for 30 podcasts, this is the betrayal of Shohei Ohtani. Listen now, wherever you get your podcasts.

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23:41welcome to part two of the guardian football weekly as so thursday the 11th of september we are playing the troxy in london jonathan wilson nicky bandini johnny lou you'll be there i met you at the bus stop john i think i've hoodwinked you into coming along to uh for an exciting cameo oh yeah yeah there's a good outfit for you uh tickets can be purchased at theguardian.com slash football weekly live still a few tickets left uh live streaming around the world so all of you please come you can watch it uh on catch up for a week or something like that um and the link is posted on the pod description it'll be all over our instagram our blue sky and our tiktok which i hear is doing great things lucy you wanted to talk about max down and stewart said should a 15 year old really be playing senior men's football especially in a pressurized environment such as the premier league and it is so easy lucy to be like wow this guy's 15 look how good he is and those are all legitimate feelings aren't they look this guy is so exciting but there is another side to this argument I guess.

24:37It's the best thing but obviously and also the worst thing for a lot of the staff at teams and at clubs where at 15 or an under 18 year old because basically safeguarding wise he's still a child until he's 18 and I know he might look, behave, play like an adult. Football is now in terms of sport a leader in safeguarding issues After the issues in the past, they're now very, very good in terms of checks, etc. And one thing that they have to do is safeguard young players in an adult environment. So it's all about parental consent. So Max Down's parents will have to consent that he can travel. So he will get changed in his own changing room.

25:23He will have a chaperone. He will not be left alone with just senior players. he will the people that chaperone him will have dbs checks disclosure and barring service checks that you know you if you're working with children in a sporting environment that that's the criminal record check that you have to have and i would suspect a chaperone will travel to away games specifically with him to look after to look after him risk assessments for every trip safeguarding briefings given to senior staff so you can imagine i'm going on but you can imagine what senior staff feel like they're just saying like michael artetto be like well he's one of my players i just just want him to just want him to there in training to play but there's so much more that goes on and it's someone's job to ensure that this child is is is safeguarded and i know it sounds and it's difficult isn't it because the young player just wants to to fit in the last thing you want to do as a young player in an in a in a in a changing room of of uh first first team pros is to stand out you want to just fit in and then a lot of them will change their behavior to to fit in but you that's just not possible and that's even before I get into his education so he's going into year 11 now so he will have an arsenal of very very good as a lot of of clubs is that he will I would suspect be on a full-time training program which means that he may go I don't know for for a fact because they probably don't release it but he may go to the partner the school of arsenal where his timetable is changed so that it he can go into training but that's you got double game double games monday morning i'm missing physics yeah but he will but now he's in the first team that first team training changes quite a lot very very quickly as well you know it might be oh we need him in we need him in but the school's like and the the academy staff education staff like well hang on a minute he's he needs to be in school because he's doing his gcse etc so that has to all be incorporated and it's it's very very difficult having been there myself as academy staff to just make sure that he just is not not forgotten about but oh he's not here he's not in his education session and so this is because he's under 16 now when he comes in as a scholar you know by the law he still has to do two years of education when he comes in at 16 so this is next season he still has to do a an education program and what that will be is that the it's called the sep it's a sporting excellence professional it's an apprenticeship it's like being an electrician or a plumber you are assessed around your ability as a footballer and and the the lifestyle and um you know psychological skills are around that jude bellingham did it i think he got his apprenticeship and it and it's quite you know it's it's like any other apprenticeship it's it's not easy and you have a end point assessment so there's all sorts going on plus this kid all he wants to do is be a footballer and the parents need to not get carried away because all they want him to be a footballer he's not signed a pro yet this is this that you know it's it is a very complex situation and actually johnny there's something interesting about i looked at the 20 youngest you know players to make a premier league debut like there's no guarantees for this guy right so it must be really hard to kind of balance where you put look the world's at your feet you could be great go out there but also somebody somewhere saying like carry like don't you've not made it yet because he's 15 and he's played one game you know the aggravating factor here i

28:47Jonathan Liew:guess is that it's arsenal and and he is that good you know if you look at that list you know james vaughn could probably walk down the street uh unharassed you know same with ben woodburn or or whatever. But this guy, he has burst on the scene in such a spectacular fashion. And it is Arsenal. It is one of the biggest clubs in the world. And the fact is, he will be famous overnight. And I think that is the part of celebrity that I don't think anyone can truly prepare you for. You know, you can sit them down and give them training and give them coaching and try and tell them what it's going to be like.

29:25Jonathan Liew:But it is, frankly... pretty quite disorienting to be able to be walking down the street and basically have that part of you that anonymity stripped away almost overnight that's and that's the part that he's not going to be prepared for and the fact that Arsenal are also as well as a football they're a commercial business this guy is going to be fantastic for the numbers uh how much content are they going to are they going to be getting out of this guy or what sort of commitments that are they going to are going to be making him do in the future in terms of media. I think there's a slight tension there because obviously you're looking after him, you want to safeguard him, you want him to be focused and do his best on the pitch.

30:06Jonathan Liew:But Arsenal is also a commercial organisation that is trying to garner new fans and subscribers and likes and all of that stuff. And Dowman is an incredibly potent asset from that point of view. And I think balancing or harnessing those two, obviously, quite countervailing forces, that I think is the tension that I think is going to determine how a lot of young players in the future develop. Yeah, and given your experience at Leeds, Lucy, who wins? I don't know if that's the right question. But like, how many people there have a long-term, caring thought for a player? Because obviously it's so, football is so short-term, we're as guilty of ever, you know, we've just half written off Florian Verts 10 minutes ago.

30:51But you know, look, I don't think we did, but you take my point. It's so immediate. You want this now. How many people at our club are going, look, you're 15, and actually we're trying to develop a good, happy humour until they're 80? No one's thinking that, are they? You sort of get the buy-in from first-team staff, but like you said, their priorities are completely different. For Mikel Arteta, it's about winning, so he will let others deal with the practicalities of Downman. But the academy staff, like Johnny's just said, It doesn't necessarily mean that he's going to be a player. Hopefully he plays at least 35 and he has a successful career, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is what's going to happen.

31:32So it's very, very difficult. They need to have tunnel vision young footballers to make it, but you also need to understand that all the other things around it, the education, the life skills, the player care stuff, shows what a learner you are. So if a player's, I used to say to players, I know exactly how you play just from how you behave in my classroom when I used to teach them before I was head of education. And because you cannot change your characteristics, you know, if you're a little bit lazy or you let others do stuff, then that's what you would be like on a pitch. But there are academy staff who will constantly worry and make sure that they're aware of how many hours is it is about whether he's getting changed on his own, whether, you know, the hotel room, if there's another young under 18s in the squad, he'll probably room with the other under 18.

32:26That's that's how it works just to, you know, because obviously you've got to make him feel comfortable as well. and it's then I think what it then shows you is I mean Arsenal's an excellent academy how he has been brought through the system and how the parents work with and it's it's a team effort how the parents work with the schools that work with the kid and it's all it all ends with this flourish hopefully into the first team and so you have got a system that's working magically there's just some people where it means a little bit more to make sure it's done in a correct way

32:57John Brewin:Players coming through young, they have a lot to negotiate. I mean, one of the players, at least you may know, Archie Gray, he was one of those players. And when Leeds got promoted from the Championship a couple of seasons ago, he was having to change away from his teammates. He came into the Premier League last season and was something approaching an instant hit, but now is having to sit on the bench and watch the new Tottenham take place. because when you're a young player, there's oscillations, aren't there? You don't become an instant hit. Not everyone is Wayne Rooney, who I see at 16 years, 297 days old, is only the 20th youngest.

33:37John Brewin:So it's almost like they waited for Wayne. And it's not like with Wayne Rooney, it isn't going to be like, I mean, the famous quote from Rooney is, when he joins the Everton first team and he starts playing with them, he turns around and he just goes, these are shite. because he realises that he's much better than every one of those players. That isn't going to be the case for anyone, even someone as talented as Max Dalman. And you actually look at that list of the top 20, it's somewhat ill-fated for quite a lot of them. You've got that Arsenal, Jack Wilshere. I mean, the lead time for Jack Wilshere, which 15 years ago or so, and when he arrived, he almost arrived fully formed, but we'd heard about him a long time and he was a great player for a few years and it didn't happen.

34:27John Brewin:An injury set in and you wonder if a manager's overplayed him. And you've got to be so careful with young talent. I mean, let's not say this is going to happen, but Saka limping off with another muscle injury. You start to wonder how it's such a delicate balance for clubs when they've got these players. And Liverpool, young Rio that scored that goal, I mean, Arne Slott has this temptation to play this guy because he can do that to win matches. But you've got a player's long-term development to think of. And Wayne Rooney, we think of as a player who burned brightly and almost burned out. But he lasted a lot longer.

35:11John Brewin:I mean, James Milner is probably like 25th on the list or something. James Milner is almost unique from playing from 16 to Prusa. He's nearly 40 now. Yeah, James Milner actually was one of, I'm sure I've said this and bored everybody, was one of my lads when he first, so he was in school with me and then was in the first team straight away. But the thing about him, and this is my point I'm going to make about Darwin, it's the reaction now is when he goes back and plays in the 21s, right? So how does he cope with in and out of the first team? Because his peers will be like, wow. And the lads who are under 18, the lads who are under 19, 20, 21, will be like jealous because he's just gone on the top of them and played.

35:56So it's a very, very competitive environment. Everything's competitive. What they wear, the trainers they've got, the girlfriend, everything's competitive. So it's how he then copes with going back. Because he's not going to stay in the first team now. That is not going to happen for reasons John said, the sort of physical aspects and the fact that you've got tens of millions of players, pounds of players in front of you. So it's how the player then reacts to going back down as they would describe it. And James Milner was one of the most perfect ones of that in terms of his attitude. It was the best attitude I've ever seen.

36:33Apart from probably Lewis Cook, those two are the best attitudes I've ever seen in a player in terms of being an adult before the time.

36:39John Brewin:Is Ethan Wanieri now? The elder statesman. Is he like some, you know, looking... Yeah, just look at... Look like Abraham Lincoln. This long, great...

36:50Jonathan Liew:He's hanging on to his career, if anything.

36:52John Brewin:Lewis Skelly, this positive veteran, yes. The only thing I was going to say, and you will laugh at this, because obviously the level is so ridiculously tiny, but I do think about the fact that you know I got soccer out of nowhere and obviously no one had a clue who I was and when I got it virtually still nobody knew but like occasionally people would yell you'll never be lovejoy you mug out of a van but I was I think I'm so lucky that I never got any level you know my zed list lowercase zed list level of fame was when I was 28 29 you know like I was sort of already I had my friends and I had my life and I knew all that stuff I think even if at 15 it must be unbelievable even at like early 20s from all footballers it must be incredibly be difficult and so and obviously that you're talking you know x i understand before anyone yells exponential levels of you know it you know i can leave my house it's okay the two maxes darman and rushton that's what they're all saying out on the street isn't it

37:47anyway um before we end part two some very sad news chesterfield co-owner phil kirk has died at the age of 59 um the club announced in march he'd been diagnosed with cancer he'd recently entered palliative care. In a statement the club said they were confirming news with great sadness. Their thoughts are with Phil's family and friends. I spoke to Alan Biggs who's a Chesterfield fan yesterday. Does Sheffield Wednesday, Sheffield United for Talk Sport and most others. The message he said was Phil Kirk was not only just a great guy, he was a brilliant owner of a football club and we spent so much time talking about owners that aren't brilliant and he was brilliant.

38:20It's incredibly sad news. Also yesterday, Gerry Harrison commentator on ITV in the 80s and the 90s. He did so much Anglia sport like so much knowledge I heard him all the time and he did John have a really he had a he had such a distinctive voice and you know uh I loved him as a commentator yeah he's one of those voices

38:41John Brewin:that I think from 86 World Cup or 82 he's one of those voices that crops up and he's not familiar to those within the Northwest that we we had Martin Tyler actually back in those days but on Phil Kirk I did a piece on Chesterfield 18 months ago or so when they're in the FA Cup and the fans spoke about him very warmly. A guy at the Financial Times called the new king of the North Sea because of his business interest laying oil, which I thought was a very nice title to have, I would have thought. We showed a wealthy man who put it back into the club that he loved. And those are the sort of owners that we approve of.

39:22John Brewin:Is that right? I mean yeah well we're desperate for every club to have that aren't you really so incredibly sad news we'll be back in a minute

39:38welcome to part 3 of the Guardian Football Weekly so we thought look we've got a bit of time we have Leeds Man United and Spurs fans on this pod we start with Leeds I think I mean obviously the 5-0 Arsenal everyone just said look don't worry about it is that the way you take a performance like that because you were brilliant against Everton Ellen Road will be so key. Like, three points is great from two games, right? I think that, you know, the performance against Everton was good, but I think Everton were really, really poor. I think they were sort of chalk and cheese this week at home at Hill Dickinson Stadium.

40:08But, yeah, Leeds are happy. Three points is so important, as early as possible when you're a promoted side. And I think there was probably no real positive thoughts going down to Arsenal that a point would be gained or three points. But my only worry, and I think that obviously I collect all my Leeds information from my dog walk and with the people that we meet, I think the worry is that they've, I think they've been quite sensible in the transfer market in that they are bought physical and big players. Because you look at Tanaka, who was fantastic in the championship and he looked lightweight against Arsenal.

40:50You know, it looked like Jekyll Rice looked like a dad playing football with his kids. You know, he just was that sort of dominant over Gruwe. Which is interesting because in your mind, the championship is perhaps more physical. I mean, you know, and again, you're playing against Arsenal who are, you know, most of them are man mountains. And I think that was a lesson. But all the players with physicality were on the bench. So the new site, so Longstaff was on the bench. Metro was on the bench. there was a centre-half be-all. I think if you're going to buy these players, then that sort of physicality needs to be on the pitch against a team like Arsenal.

41:25Because, you know, at times they would, you know, Gruev and Tanaka were swatted off the ball by Arsenal. But I think you've just, the difference, you're so used to winning in the championship, it's how quickly everybody gets used to losing and then responding to a loss. and that is so crucial in the Premier League. You can get battered five, but you've got to come back the next week and you've got to forget that and start again. And now next week for Leeds is Newcastle. Now, Leeds fans will have been watching last night going, brilliant, Anthony Gordon, injured to Joe Linton, these players that very much affect the way that Newcastle play.

42:05So it's about that. It's about eating. And I know it's something that you say each game at a time, but it's just forgetting what's... And even if you win, right, you've still got to then go and perform the week after or midweek. And they're playing Sheffield Wednesday, I think, tonight. So there'll be much change. But I think that it's how you get used to losing more than you win and how you perform in the Premier League. John, Manchester United, are there any green shoots?

42:32John Brewin:Well, I was at the fun game for the Guardian on Sunday. Green shoots for the first 20 minutes and then 70 minutes of constipated, turgid. You can insert your own descriptions here. It just felt like last season. Where are the green shoots? I mean, maybe in a player like Dorgu, you're seeing a bit more maturity, a bit more, you know, he's a bit more used to the league. Mason Mount, John. Mason Mount's playing a little bit better. I agree with that, Lucy. Mason Mancet, a player who listens to what his manager says, follows instructions to the letter, obviously has a bit of skill, and I think playing that sort of withdrawn number nine role is fairly thankless.

43:19John Brewin:And Buemo did not have a good time against the wardrobe, Calvin Bassi, who is lightning quick as well, by the way. Sesco came on. So I was really interested to see Sesco. and Sesko came on and within two seconds Joachim Andersen is almost straight through him like welcome to the Premier League mate and I think there was one point where Sesko showed a good touch for a big man there was a lovely little touch down around his side I was sat with Barney we're like oh hello you know he's got that but that was it he was just completely climbed all over by Fulham. Cunha showed he is, again, he's a decorating player.

44:01John Brewin:He's not a dominant player. And it's Amorim who's got to front all this. He already has a slightly panicked defensive tone to himself. I think the decision to give him the job in November is probably fatal for his Manchester United's legacy because if they'd have waited and put in another caretaker and written off the season, then we might have had new shoots, new beginnings. There's a certain staleness, a sterility. And, oh God, I'm talking about how Manchester United are absolutely shy again. No, no, it's comforting. It's comforting. I'm doing them tomorrow night at Groomsby for ITV. So looking forward to a trip to Grimsby.

44:52Just a little note, just a couple of, one major tactical thing that I've noticed this season is, and Liverpool did it last night, is the wide players are closing down centre-backs. And I know this is a little bit geeky, but a few teams have done it already. So they're basically saying, we don't want you through centre. So Salah's coming in and closing down. Man Utd did it as well, making sure that they close the centre-backs and just allowing the width, allowing the attacking teams to have the width, but not through the centre. And it's weird how it's like, and also long throws as well. It's like they've all had a conference in summer and go, right, should we try it?

45:28Yeah, let's all try it. Let's have a little bit of a go with long throws and let's have a little bit go with changing the way our wide players press.

45:36John Brewin:I meant to say, Lucy, yeah, that Craven Cottage, by the end of it, was just a series of set pieces and long throws, corners. and it's we're in the NFL now that's what it felt like it's a series of set routines Johnny Spurs we know how much you were an acolyte for Anz Prostokogli but you have to move with the times, Thomas Frank is in, how are you feeling? He started very well hasn't he

46:07Jonathan Liew:I think not just in terms of what he said and and how he's conducted himself and how he's carried himself. But the results on the pitch have been, they're clearly responding to him. You know, they've clearly had a decent pre-season. The parts are all working together. And, you know, there has obviously been a lot of discourse about the lack of transfer business, about, you know, the SA saga. And I do think they still lack a lot of creativity in the middle. that that is their Achilles heel at the moment they have a lot of honest runners in the middle of the pitch guys like Benton Coor and Saar who were brilliant against Manchester City and Paulinho I think you know you would put in that category but not players who can unlock a defence that's what they're going to need against I guess the the bottom half teams that they're going to need to beat later later in the campaign against City yeah they were fantastic I think one of the the legacies or the post-to-coglu era is that they don't fear these kind of games anymore that they go to city and they go to to liverpool and united and and they might they might get a beating but they they actually they don't feel inferior they have a go uh i think that that is a big that is a big shift and you know we've seen i think quite quite a lot of promise i don't think spurs are quite good enough to challenge for for top five on on what we've seen so far without a couple of signings i think that losing madison in the summer has been a big loss for them because he's one of the players who can unlock a defense koulusevsky obviously he's struggling with injury so they do i think they do still need that player i'm not really you know i'm not that excited by savinho i don't think i think the last thing spurs needs is another winger who can't score uh you know they're full of they've got guys like odobers and and matisse tell and i like brennan johnson but i i don't i mean he does score brennan johnson he does score i like him as well Well, he does score, but what Brennan Johnson does is he pops up at the back post after a lung-busting run to score a tap-in.

48:14Jonathan Liew:And I know that there's a skill to that, to being in the right place and having the engine and the awareness to do that. But I put that in the category of a system goal rather than a Brennan Johnson goal. I still don't, again, I think in more static games, and most of the Premier League campaign is more static games against teams that I think I go to sit back a little bit more. I still don't think he has the craft to unlock those games. On transfers, Everton have confirmed Tyler Dibbling, who Spurs were rumoured to and is that kind of, he's an unlocker, isn't he? 35 million plus five in add-ons.

48:52So that's quite a fun, they play in die, greelish Dibbling behind Barry.

48:56John Brewin:That's going to be really exciting, isn't it? So you play them behind Barry.

49:01Jonathan Liew:Tierno Barry. Tierno Barry, we should make clear.

49:04John Brewin:Yeah, well, Barry Glandetti. It's just Barry to us. But haven't Everton done this before when they signed three number 10s one summer? Sigurdsson, Rooney.

49:13Jonathan Liew:Rooney. Davy Classen.

49:15John Brewin:Davy Classen, yeah. Wow, yeah. Check out Davy Classen's hair these days. I always say that. They've done this before. Are Everton just doing old Everton now? Is that what? But yeah, I mean, that is exciting. Dibbling, I saw, was that rare spark in Southampton last season. He's one of those players that is directing his running, goes straight into the heart of defences. I think there's a bit of game intelligence there as well. Can you imagine, John, as well, how buzzing he'll be to train with Jack Grealish every day as a young player? Yes, yes. That'll have had a massive effect on him, I would suspect, going to Everton.

49:53John Brewin:Do you know what? There is a lot of the young Jack Grealish about him, isn't there? because he's a physical specimen as well, like Jack was. And Everton, exciting, happy, cheery. Yeah, it'll never last. Now, yesterday we were talking about, well, Semi Hero got in touch saying, James Trafford being described as not the biggest for a goalkeeper. Is the pod setting the bar high? Pressure on microscopic 6 '5 Donnarumma if they sign him? Because James Trafford is 6 '6". This blew my mind that James Trafford is taller than Gianluigi Donnarumma. I just won't have it. Even if they stood next to each other, you know.

50:29I mean, Sam Dalling did say he was a late developer. I don't know if he was six foot yesterday and now he's six foot six. But I can't believe he's six foot six.

50:39John Brewin:He's wiry for a six. Can you be wiry in six foot six? I don't know. Sort of blow over in a gale because he looks tiny. You know, anyway, anyway, we'll see what happens with Donnarumma and City. Apparently, Chelsea have agreed a deal to loan Nicholas Jackson to Bayern Munich. Where's Aaron Ramsey playing, Barry? This might be the most where is he now, Barry, piece of news. Any of you know who Aaron Ramsey is playing for? Nope. He is playing for Pumas in the Liga MX in Mexico. Oh. Been there two months and he made his debut yesterday. That's not Ed Malian's team, is it? Is that Ed Malian's team?

51:14I don't know. I don't know. Tell the listeners who that is.

51:19John Brewin:Ed Malian, former journalist, former colleague of Jonathan's, actually, is now the owner of, or co-owner, of a Liga MX club. Cuero Taro FC, he is the owner of, apparently. Good work, producer Joel. Jim says, do you think Gateshead fans decided to start their 350-mile return trip at halftime? Yeah, Gateshead were 3-0 down at Yeovil at halftime. You would think, shall we? And then they scored four in the second half, including one in the 98th minute. Moonlight Hanger says, we're talking now starting our home games with a toddler driving a miniature car onto the pitch to deliver the match ball. When will IFAB act to ensure this is mandatory for all future matches at every stadium?

51:58The closer look is he might be about eight or nine. I think getting a two-year-old, that is a risk. It could go anywhere. It's certainly unlikely to go to the centre circle. Anyway, that'll do for today. Thanks, everybody. Thank you, Johnny. Thanks. Thanks, Lucy.

52:12Jonathan Liew:Thank you. Thank you, John. Cheers, Max. Football Weekly is produced by Joel Grove. Our executive producer is Danielle Stephens. We'll be back on Thursday.

52:23John Brewin:This is The Guardian.