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In short
The episode is a Guardian Football Weekly wrap of the World Cup final: Spain beat Argentina 1-0, with Ferran Torres scoring the winner. The panel argues Spain were deserved champions, highlighting Argentina’s low output (no shots until extra time, 0.17 xG) and a “cynicism”/fouling approach that culminated in Enzo’s red card.
Key claims
Spain’s midfield dominance powered the win; Rodri was player of the tournament; Spain’s squad “vindication” story (injured/under-questioned players returning) mattered; and Luis de la Fuente’s team-first “family” culture beat Argentina’s reliance on Messi.
Notable examples
Nico Williams’ byline header to Torres; Martinez’s saves; Argentina’s short-corner/late chances; and Rodri’s rehab conversation with Guardiola. Guests/panel: Barry Glenn Denning, Jonathan Wilson, and John Bruin; plus Sid Lowe (interviewed after the game).
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOReflecting on Argentina's Performance
0:30 to 1:09
Discussion on Argentina's poor performance in the final against Spain.
“They didn't have a shot until extra time.”
Celebrating a Unifying Tournament
1:09 to 1:30
Acknowledgment of the World Cup's ability to bring people together.
“On the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning, welcome.”
Panel Introductions and Sid Lowe's Insights
1:30 to 2:26
Introduction of panel members and insights from Sid Lowe on the match.
“Ferran Torres what a moment for him to score the winning goal in a World Cup final Yeah, I mean, I've been writing about this today because I was doing the Spain sidebar.”
Spain's World Cup Victory Analysis
2:26 to 5:11
Analysis of Spain's performance and its key players during the tournament.
“So Nico Williams, who'd been injured, came back from injury, then of course had that injury against Uruguay, which he thought was going to put him out for the rest of the tournament.”
Rodri's Role and Managerial Success
5:11 to 6:04
Discussion on Rodri's influence and the manager's role in Spain's success.
Argentina's Tactical Choices Under Scrutiny
6:04 to 6:44
Critical assessment of Argentina's tactical approach and its consequences.
Reflections on Argentina's Cynical Play
6:44 to 9:50
Debate on the cynicism displayed by Argentina during the final.
“I thought it was slightly sanctimonious.”
The Messi Dilemma: Dependency Issues
9:50 to 13:12
Discussion on Argentina's reliance on Messi and its implications.
“it should just be a yellow card because you're not trying to play the ball.”
Concluding Thoughts on World Cup Performances
13:12 to 14:00
Final reflections on team performances and the future of both Spain and Argentina.
“It was almost like he was their get-out clause.”
Spain's Midfield Dominance in the World Cup
14:00 to 15:10
Explore the impact of Rodri and Spain's midfield on their World Cup victory.
“I suspect when he goes, and he surely won't be around in 2030, they'll be fine.”
Show all 28 chapters
Key Moments and Player Performances
15:10 to 17:10
Discuss crucial goals and player contributions during the tournament.
“Martinez had made loads of saves, but no brilliant.”
Reflections on the Final Match
17:10 to 19:40
Reflect on the overall quality and atmosphere of the World Cup final match.
“nasty shit, let's face it, when he's playing for Chelsea and he's got plenty about him when he's playing for Spain as well.”
Luis de la Fuente's Coaching Strategy
19:40 to 21:00
Analyze the effectiveness of Luis de la Fuente's coaching changes throughout the tournament.
“I think as well there's this extraordinary thing.”
Comparative Analysis of International Coaches
21:00 to 22:30
Discuss the advantages of having local coaches in international football.
“So maybe that Rodri Dependencia we're talking about, maybe we've overstated that when I think about Zubimendi.”
World Cup Opening Ceremony Highlights
22:30 to 24:30
Review the highlights of the World Cup opening ceremony and halftime show.
“Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly.”
Cultural Moments and Performances during the World Cup
24:30 to 28:00
Explore various performances and cultural moments that marked the World Cup.
“I would say, you know, you could probably get a cheaper box that'll do the same job, would be my guess.”
Analyzing the Halftime Show
28:00 to 28:48
Discuss the halftime entertainment and its impact on the match.
Pundits and Public Reactions
28:48 to 29:38
Explore pundits' criticisms and public perceptions of the match.
“So he was saying that he thought that all the pundits were here on it.”
The Trophy Presentation
29:38 to 30:36
Detail the events surrounding the trophy presentation and notable interactions.
“trying to be too nice because, you know, they're all part of the system.”
The King's Height and Other Stats
30:36 to 31:30
Discuss the King of Spain and other amusing statistics related to the match.
“And Guy Mowbray did point out that the King of Spain is the tallest current living monarch.”
Live Event Announcements
31:30 to 31:58
Promote upcoming live events and ticket sales for listeners.
England vs. France: The Third Place Playoff
31:58 to 32:48
Recap the thrilling third place playoff between England and France.
“Possibly the busiest minute by minute of my career.”
Assessing Player Performances and Strategies
32:48 to 34:08
Evaluate player performances and tactical decisions in the playoff.
“But at a certain point, though, it almost turned against Thomas Tuchel again, didn't it?”
Saka's Hat-Trick and Strategic Decisions
34:08 to 35:50
Discuss Saka's hat-trick and critical commentary on team strategy.
“It was mainly how many goals can Mbappe score to make sure he wins the golden boot.”
Analyzing Tuchel's Decisions
35:50 to 39:50
Dive into the analysis of Tuchel's management decisions during the tournament.
“during the tournament that I can just watch without being in agony.”
Reflections on the Tournament's Conclusion
39:50 to 42:01
Reflect on the overall tournament experience and the aftermath for the team.
“That Tuchel made a mess of a situation that he was employed to deal with.”
Tournament Wrap-Up and Future Plans
42:01 to 42:28
The hosts discuss their downtime post-tournament and upcoming content.
Gratitude and Acknowledgments
42:28 to 43:36
Hosts express gratitude to each other and the production team for their efforts.
“And then we'll be allowed out for the start.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is The Guardian.
0:30Jonathan Wilson:better than the opposition. The Argentinians were awful. They didn't have a shot until extra time. Uno Simon made no saves. Argentina were filthy. Enzo sent off stupidly. Paredes, Taglifico and co never stopped fouling. Even Messi tried to get Cucurela sent off. Hopefully Paredes will get a big ban for throwing punches afterwards. What a bunch of shit. They did nothing. They weren't good enough and thank goodness they lost. We'll do a bit on the showbiz. Tom Cruise bringing the world together. Is John Bruin a Belieber? Find out later. We'll do a bit on the Harlem Globetrotters soccerade mashup between England and France yesterday.
1:00Jonathan Wilson:And as we gather for one final chapter, let us celebrate a tournament that brought the world together. Let us celebrate each other. This is football. This is unity. This is greatness. This is the Guardian Football Weekly.
1:15Jonathan Wilson:On the panel today, Barry Glenn Denning, welcome. Hello, Max. Jonathan Wilson, hello. Hello. And welcome, John Bruin. Great intro, Max. Thanks so much. Not all my words. before I talk to you lot I caught up with Sid Lowe after the game coming through the Lincoln Tunnel back into Manhattan from Meadowlands and you know what, there was a moment wasn't there right at the very end when Messi went across the front of the penalty area and I thought oh here we go, this is going to actually happen now, it's pain I've had all the chances but Messi is going to get the goal, I don't think I've ever seen a 1-0 victory be quite as deserved as that.
1:48Jonathan Wilson:Ferran Torres what a moment for him to score the winning goal in a World Cup final Yeah, I mean, I've been writing about this today because I was doing the Spain sidebar. And in a way, I quite like the fact that it's someone like him. And in fact, Luis de la Fuente said after the game that he was very pleased it was him. Pedro Porro said how pleased he wasn't with him. And I think that's a symbol of the group. Because if you go back to the game against Saudi Arabia, Spain have cornered up and Ferran Torres scores a goal to make it 5-0. And it gets ruled out by VAR. And the cameras catch Ferran Torres muttering to himself, please be a goal, please be a goal, please be a goal.
2:21and I think you saw there the pressure the sense that maybe people didn't always rate him that says that maybe he wasn't always valued or didn't feel valued and maybe also the sense that he felt like somehow fate was against him and it turns out that fate was actually saving one up for him and and the and the you know the second biggest goal or the biggest goal in Spain's football
2:38Jonathan Wilson:history yeah and also Nico Williams right who wasn't fit for almost all the tournament but made such a difference yeah and I think actually you can go through the team and say that this is a tournament of vindication. So Nico Williams, who'd been injured, came back from injury, then of course had that injury against Uruguay, which he thought was going to put him out for the rest of the tournament. And he described it as one of the worst days of his life. So he was a different one. Lamy came into the tournament injured. You had Laporte had a difficult season. Unai Simon had doubts about him all the way through the season.
3:06Rodri had come back from an injury. Javier Ruiz had been injured a lot. So you've got a whole load of players who I think came into this tournament. And it actually raises a question, a kind of a physical question, which is whether it's not a bad thing to come into a tournament having missed a lot of season for injury but i also think it creates a psychological emotional thing about the tournament being an opportunity to be vindicated or at least
3:27Jonathan Wilson:an opportunity to kind of rise again uh luis de la fuente and and others did they talk about the argentinian approach to the game the uh basically being violent shits for the whole thing well pedro borra was asked about this and the question was obviously designed to try and get him to say pretty much what you've just said but you know bear in mind at that point they've won it and it's sort of you know that one is long enough after the game that they're not angry anymore they've won it they're absolutely delighted so federal podner did i think the right thing and just sort of said well you know they play their way we play our way it's fine um and and you know it's it's almost the best response isn't it say to argentine are very good but we're the world champions yeah yeah and a word on rodri right who won the player of the tournament he was magnificent again.
4:14Jonathan Wilson:Yeah, absolutely. And so it's really important this. I think we talked about this the other day, Max, that Rodri had reached a point in the autumn when he thought the process of rehabilitation wasn't quite going right. And essentially he had a conversation with Guardiola about managing this. How do I come back in the right shape? And remember that quote from Guardiola when will it be? Midway through the season where people are saying, well, Rodri's performances are okay, but they're not consistently very good. And Guardiola said, do you know when he'll be good? He'll be good at the World Cup. and I think there was a real sense of preparing for this, of this being his everything, of this being the thing that would kind of re-put him, if you like, at the very forefront of everything.
4:51And so much so, and I hate to do this because what matters is they've just won the World Cup, not the other thing. But given that you asked me specifically about Rodri, I wonder if this puts him back in the frame now of being seen as the best player in the world and a candidate for the Ballon d 'Or again. Yeah, quite possibly. A word on the manager? Well, a word on the manager is that this is his success. You look at the way this has happened, there hasn't been an outstanding superstar this has been about a team there's lots of very good players there he's a manager that has constantly talked about recognizing their qualities constantly said these are the best players in the world after the game as you saw him on the way out of the stadium and he was like nah it's these guys these guys are amazing these players are amazing and he doesn't want to make it about him but i think he knows it is about him because he's created an environment and i think it's more than tactics in fact i think it's not even tactics although he's got his tactical decisions right as well i think it's about the group and what he keeps using the word family and now i know that's a bit of a cliche i know lots of managers do it lots of players do they always say oh we're like a family but he's tried really really hard to create that identity and he keeps using that the other phrase he's used a lot is to say that i choose good players but i choose good people first and he's even said explicitly if there's a really brilliant
6:00Jonathan Wilson:player but he's not a good person he's not coming did you enjoy the halftime show no although i must confess if you're in a game and you're writing and you get 27 minutes to write at halftime instead of 15 it's quite handy hey listen sid thanks so much for taking the time i know it's been a very busy day for you and it's pretty late so we appreciate your time uh now back to me wilson bruin and barry in the studio and we've just been lazing about all day thank you sid very much a pleasure enjoy so for the tape i've chatted with sid but but that's after i'm having this chat with you, but hopefully that all makes sense.
6:36Jonathan Wilson:Time travel. Time travel, exactly. So, Spain win the World Cup 1-0. I mean, thank God, Barry, they did.
6:43Max Rushden:I enjoyed your intro. I thought it was slightly sanctimonious. And I think it was rooted in bitterness you continue to feel after Argentina beat England in the semi-final.
6:56Jonathan Wilson:I guarantee you not at all.
6:57Max Rushden:But there is absolutely no doubt the best team won that match. And And we saw again, Argentina seem so hell-bent on shithousing their way through games, they seem to forget that. When they actually finally start to play a bit of football, they're pretty good at it. And it looked, when they finally started playing in this game with five minutes of extra time remaining, they created a few chances. And I think it would have been awful if they put one away. but they didn't and Spain are thoroughly deserving winners didn't actually play as well as they can they didn't play as well as they can in their opening game of this tournament didn't play as well as they can in their final game of the tournament but they did enough to win it and I think we're all quite grateful for that because Argentina I mean what no shots on target no shots on target
7:57Jonathan Wilson:they had two shots the only real chance was Simeone skying it I mean, he probably should have tried to two foot it and maybe he'd have connected better. 1.94 XG versus 0.17. Argentine had eight touches in the opposition box, only two after 90 minutes. Martinez made the most saves in World Cup final history. So maybe I don't think I'm being sanctimonious, but, you know, it's not the first time Barry's accused me of being sanctimonious this six weeks. It does feel like a win for football, Wilson.
8:29Barry Glendenning:I mean, obviously, I had a financial incentive in Argentine winning. and as you know there is no incentive I like more than a financial incentive yeah so I think it would have been hilarious if Argentina had equalized it would have been funny and then won it on penalties but it was a disgusting final and you're Barry's right the thing I don't understand is when Argentina play they're really good so I mean like you don't have to sort of go gung-ho and attack from the start but there's a balance to be struck And I do wonder, in the same way that England winning in Mexico sort of reified in the English mind, this is how you have to defend the lead, did Argentina beat England reified in their mind, oh yeah, this is how we play at tournaments?
9:13Barry Glendenning:So the whole thing was very 1990 that Argentina went in as champions. And in 86 and 2022, they played good football. And then for some reason, four years later with a quite similar squad, they decided they were going to try and brawl their way to victory. Was this, were they worse here or in 1990? No, they were worse in 1990 because the rules are a lot tighter now. but I think Argentina's performance today was a consequence of the indulgence they've been showing throughout the tournament. And I think if you barge into the back of somebody two or three seconds after the ball's gone, even if it's just a shove, it should just be a yellow card because you're not trying to play the ball.
9:53Barry Glendenning:All you're trying to do is disrupt the game.
9:54Jonathan Wilson:And actually, if the referee's given a free kick, well, the game isn't flowing. So it's not letting the game flow.
9:59Barry Glendenning:You're stopping it already. But the game flowing thing, you have to think of a long-term. So, okay, maybe this one particular game you let that flow by letting a few fouls go but the long term consequences people just get away with fouls and then you get things like today I mean today was not about letting the game flow at all and I would say that's not because of a referee intervening too much it's because previous referees have intervened too little
10:22Jonathan Wilson:so Enzo was sent off and actually some of the Argentinian fouls John are sort of sensible even if they're filthy and they really you know they really leave one on you they're like at sensible places on the pitch but both of his his first yellow for descent and the second yellow were so daft and it did change the game.
10:38John Brewin:It did, it did because Spain had such dominance of midfield and then Argentina's best midfielder departs. But it was a World Cup final of cynicism that reflected quite a lot of what we've seen before in terms of it's been a cynical tournament in many respects, some of them beyond the pitch. I mean, the Balogun thing will probably never get over. But Argentina, the way that they played that, it was almost as if they were afraid to take it toe-to-toe with Spain because they felt they had the better players. Barry, do you not feel shame hitching yourself to the wagon of this Argentine team? I'm not hitching myself to the wagon.
11:19John Brewin:Well, you did the other day.
11:22Jonathan Wilson:You hitched onto it and then hitched off it?
11:24Max Rushden:Yeah. I didn't care who won this final. Max, you were full of praise for the manner in which Arsenal approached the Champions League final. I don't know how you can praise that and then... Well, because that wasn't kicking the shit out of people. That was just playing really good. It was shit out of people. No, it was playing with a totally different performance.
11:40Jonathan Wilson:I don't... I mean, none of the fouls today were particularly bad. No, but there were lots of yellow. You know, Paredes should have been gone. I think Taglafico could have done as well. I don't think they're comparable. I understand that.
11:51Barry Glendenning:And there was also, there was a lot of, when players were jumping, nudging them, which is really dangerous. Yes. I mean, maybe it's not a major contact. Nothing particularly happened to their local varsity. I mean, I suppose it's slightly different because he sort of flipped over. But Kubasa could have really damaged his shoulder. He landed on his arm. He's quite lucky, I think, that he didn't damage his shoulder.
12:10Jonathan Wilson:And actually, in that game, Arsenal took the lead. So that just changed exactly how you play. You know, if Argentina take the lead early, then you go defensive. Hopefully not as dirty as that.
12:19John Brewin:Disallowed goal. Cynicism as well from Otamendi and falling to the floor. If only Jed Spencer had done that. Yeah, well, quite. But they just... We're too honest. Yeah. Let's not. Please, no. Let's not read it. But it seems a terrible waste when you have Messi and you actually only allow Messi to play in the last five, six minutes of the game.
12:40Barry Glendenning:Baffling use of Messi. Sicking him up front like he's Dan Byrne in the last few minutes.
12:44John Brewin:Stuck him up there like it was Chris Iwilumo
12:46Jonathan Wilson:and just getting it launched to the big man. Chris will be delighted with the comparison. He had 54 touches, none in the opposition box. He was in tears at the end. I mean, I guess it could be his last game.
12:57John Brewin:Well, yeah, I mean, we saw tears at the end of the 2014 final, at which point he retired. No, it was 2016 after he lost his second success of Copa Mata. But we've seen those tears before. It seems, if you were Argentina, there probably has to come a time when you cut the cord with Messi. It was almost like he was their get-out clause. The rest of the players looked to him and they didn't have the capability of living with Spain.
13:24Jonathan Wilson:Or maybe you have to change how you play if Messi's there. Yes. Still brilliant. And he's still, but it sort of dictates, he's a player you build a team around. Yeah. So if you don't have him, you perhaps play in a different way.
13:37Barry Glendenning:Well, and arguably their best performance since last World Cup was beating Brazil 4-1 when it could have been 8-9-1 without Messi. So, yeah, I mean, Messi's dependencia has been something that's been talked about for a long time. and I think it's slightly more baffling now in that they've proved they can do it without him. But at the same time, if you've got him, of course you use him. Of course, yeah. And that's a difficult thing to square. I suspect when he goes, and he surely won't be around in 2030, they'll be fine.
14:08John Brewin:Is there such a thing as Rodri Dependentia? Yeah, I think there is. The City have had it. Well, quite, yeah, when City went off the ball when Rodri had his ACL. And what's interesting with this tournament is the best player, deservedly, was Rodri because Spain's midfield was the engine of victory, wasn't it? They don't have a great forward line in a centre forward.
14:31Barry Glendenning:Well, and also I think you saw the difference from two years ago because Laminjumar clearly was not fit. Neither was Nico. And did not have a great tournament. Nico Williams was restricted to coming off a bench and made a huge difference today coming off a bench. So I think if the two of them are fit in two years' time for the Euros, Spain will...
14:50John Brewin:Having said that, the substitute striker scored the winning goal. He's had a shocking tournament. He's not played very well. It doesn't matter, does it, if you score the winner in the World Cup final?
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14:57Jonathan Wilson:He's a national, international hero. And actually, and I may or may not have covered this with Sid, but I presume I will, Barry. It is a brilliant finish, actually, at a time where Spain had had so many chances, but no real clear-cut chances. Martinez had made loads of saves, but no brilliant. He'd made one brilliant save from Nico Williams, actually, in the first half extra time. That finish is brilliant from Ferran.
15:17Max Rushden:Yeah, left-footed, side-foot into the roof of the net. Pretty unstoppable. Like you say, Martinez had made saves. None of them particularly extraordinary. You would expect him to make most of them. I think the ball, the header from the byline by Nico Williams into Torres' pass is just as important, obviously. And it's the kind of opportunity you could put 20 feet over the bar, but he didn't. and look, they needed to take one of those chances. It was coming. Yeah, it was. It really was. It was.
15:54Jonathan Wilson:I mean, there was that time, I think you said it, Wilson, when it was like Spain have had 12 shots, 30 shots, and Argentina had no shots. And the clock's ticking, you're just thinking, they're going to have one shot and it's going to go in. You're just sort of this sneaky. But they were, even though they were creating absolutely nothing, you just thought maybe, what did you say, Ottomendi, 118. Ottomendi, 118. on Rodri it's quite interesting how because he's big isn't he like he's he's a big most brilliant central midfielders who are brilliant at keeping the ball are not like physically so big
16:28Barry Glendenning:I wonder if if in the Spanish system he's benefited from his size that they haven't tried to turn him into you know a tricky Xavi or Gavi style sure midfielder it's like okay you are a bit slower you are a bit more Busquets and so why didn't you play like Busquets and he's been as successful as Busquets. Be a bit more Busquets.
16:46Jonathan Wilson:It's quite good advice for any central midfielder, isn't it? And they've had, all over the pitch, but as you know, there was lots of talk, I guess, lots of Premier League fans think David Reyes should play in goal, but Simon's letting one. The full-backs have both been brilliant as well.
17:01Max Rushden:Cucurella and Porro. I mean, Porro's not had a particularly good season for Sporros. He's been an absolute revelation here. Cucurella is a... nasty shit, let's face it, when he's playing for Chelsea and he's got plenty about him when he's playing for Spain as well. But he looked positively angelic today up against Argentina. And, you know, the good guys won this one. So it's... But look, it was a terrible game. we watched it in a very you know circumstance forced us to watch it in a very busy bar full of people who kind of seemed like they'd never been in a bar before and the noise was deafening the volume on the television oh wow
17:56Jonathan Wilson:I had to go outside for a long time I'm slightly concerned I'm going to end up
17:59Max Rushden:with tinnitus on the back of that anyway yes people you know on a jolly inverted commas in New York and join themselves complaining about No, I'm talking about us. Oh, right. 50-odd-year-old men going to young people's bars. It's just a bad idea. But I'm wondering if that... It was still a terrible game, wasn't it? Even if I'd watched it in Blissful Solitude, it was still a terrible, terrible World Cup final.
18:25John Brewin:If you'd have been watching it in Blissful Solitude, you'd have done a lot of looking at your phone and stuff like that because it didn't quite... Yeah, that bar was louder than when I went to see Sun the other week. whatever they're doing with the volume in there is absolutely incredible
18:39Jonathan Wilson:well on Luis de la Fuente that's the Euros and now the World Cup this is quite a good run yeah
18:45Barry Glendenning:I mean it's a point loads of people have been making but it does seem that in international football having somebody from within the federation who understands the system who's worked with youth teams who's known some of the players for years and years and years that is more useful than bringing in your big name manager and bolting them on that Scaloni, you could say exactly the same thing for, is his opponent in the final. Argentina under 10s, are they doing that?
19:14Jonathan Wilson:The DNA?
19:18John Brewin:What point do they say? You see him, eat him, eat that man. Dilla Frenzi, though, I mean, his manner is not dissimilar to Del Bosque, who performed a similar feat. It's just, you know, it's keep it. One of the reasons Spain are victors is because they kept the calm where, say, England were allowed themselves to be drawn into it.
19:42Barry Glendenning:I think as well there's this extraordinary thing. Again, this is not a revelation. This is not something that hasn't been said before, but it is an extraordinary thing that Spain, basically, Aragon has changed their style between 2006 and 2008, dropping Raul, getting rid of La Furia, the sort of the fury of the self-imposed style before that and sort of paved the way for Del Bosque and the sort of more patient Barcelona influence possession style and they've played that ever since it sort of seems to work doesn't it?
20:16Jonathan Wilson:But he changed things during this tournament, he took Pedri out, he brought in Dani Olmo that has, you know, he brought in Fabian Ruiz so he's, you know, they've got lots of good players but like he's he hasn't just gone this is my team, he's thought about it
20:27Barry Glendenning:Yeah, and I think Olmo for Pedri is actually quite a key thing because he gave him a bit of that directness. They lost by Laminya Mal not being quite right and Nico Williams not being there. And Alex Baena's done fine, but he's very obviously a central player, playing wide, drifting in field, and he's got no pace. So he's filled in well, but he's clearly not doing the same job as Nico Williams does.
20:48Jonathan Wilson:But it's quite interesting that they can still play. You know, he played really well, actually, in the France game, which is like the performance of the tournament by anyone, probably.
20:57John Brewin:And then they can bring on players like Marino, who added that extra element of them being direct when they were really pushing for it. And then Zubimendi hadn't played any moments in the tournament, but it's like, I mean, remember the Euros final, remember we were all celebrating when Rodri went off and then they bring on Zubimendi, who turned out to be really good and they were able to do that there. So maybe that Rodri Dependencia we're talking about,
21:15Barry Glendenning:maybe we've overstated that when I think about Zubimendi. Yeah, good point, good point.
21:19Jonathan Wilson:He could do it. Any other strong thoughts on the game before we move on to the off-pitch stuff?
21:26Max Rushden:not strong thoughts again it wasn't very good and it's a shame that what was quite a good tournament in terms of football on the pitch that one of the biggest one of the games that stank it out the most was the final I still say it was a lot better than Australia Paragraph in the group which is my new benchmark for it used to be Egypt Republic of Ireland I think it was World Cup 1990 but mine was Ireland Norway 94 yeah we've been in a few yeah yeah
22:02Jonathan Wilson:England Algeria I mean I guess circumstance it takes but I
22:05John Brewin:at least that had the idea of righteous fury about just how awful it was Switzerland Ukraine
22:12Barry Glendenning:2006 your classic Japan Paraguay 2010 Paraguay doing well
22:17John Brewin:there's a pattern here I think
22:19Max Rushden:we need to get Ireland playing Paraguay oh my god can you imagine
22:24Jonathan Wilson:Jack Charlton's Ireland
22:26Max Rushden:the current incarnation in the 64 team
22:31Jonathan Wilson:World Cup hopefully Ireland can get there Hal Grimson's gone even more direct we go to Asuncion the Guardians send us to Paraguay for that game for six weeks in Paraguay that 0-0 draw it's what we deserve that'll do for part 1, part 2 We'll do a little bit on the opening ceremony in the halftime show.
23:02Jonathan Wilson:Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So we'll do the razzmatazz. So we began with the opening ceremony. Robbie Williams in a nice glittery tracksuit. Respect that he's going grey. There was a moment in the game when it cuts to Robbie Williams and Wilson thought it was Kevin Peterson.
23:20Jonathan Wilson:who's happier with that comparison I don't know I'd have liked it if KP had sung a song with the Coles Scherzinger at the start can you say in my defence he was wearing sunglasses he was, no no you're absolutely right
23:31Max Rushden:but he wasn't in whites he was kind of sporting Robbie was sporting KP's 2005 Badger skunk haircut with added grey
23:44Barry Glendenning:he was very loud
23:46Jonathan Wilson:I think I can't be stressed enough. I think we have stressed it quite a lot. The World Cup came out of a Louis Vuitton box, Barry. Did we repress with that? Is that the normal carry case?
23:55Max Rushden:I don't know.
23:56John Brewin:It's camp, isn't it? And it's, you know, the president has a certain campness to him, doesn't he?
24:02Max Rushden:So, yeah, maybe that's what it is.
24:03Jonathan Wilson:It's more than special than bringing it out with a Tesco bag. I can't.
24:06John Brewin:I can't see it for his bag for a life.
24:08Jonathan Wilson:There's something good about a plastic bag. Yeah, maybe a tote bag. I don't know if it's always, because there were two Louis Vuitton ambassadors. I've got a suspicion the last World Cup
24:17Barry Glendenning:was a Louis Vuitton is that right
24:18Max Rushden:I mean a friend of mine once accused me of arrogance because I went to the FSA awards and brought a Sainsbury's bag that such was my confidence that I wouldn't need it to carry some awards right okay so yeah maybe I need to invest in a Louis Vuitton carrier bag right for our next possible award
24:39Barry Glendenning:is it classy Louis I don't even know how do you say it it's a bit it's a bit
24:43Max Rushden:it's a bit A footballer wash bag of choice tends to be Louis Vuitton.
24:47John Brewin:I think it's brassy rather than classy.
24:49Jonathan Wilson:We're speaking as poor classy men. It feels more tassels than taste. I would say, you know, you could probably get a cheaper box that'll do the same job, would be my guess. Or get a classy box.
24:59Barry Glendenning:I mean, your FIFA, you've made$15 billion on this tournament.
25:04Jonathan Wilson:I mean, what would you, you know, what's your classy box?
25:07Barry Glendenning:I would go to, you know, they're from Zurich, literally the land of cuckoo clocks. okay you could go to a cookie clock manufacturer world cup comes out of a little
25:18Jonathan Wilson:is that classy uh anyway after that then tom cruise stood there and spout some unutterable bollocks about bringing the world together what an actor that man is but then we had it on the cv broadcast we had more tom cruise it cut to tom cruise which is a bit disconcerting quite a cruisy moment and then uh producer rory noticed that both the buffers i didn't realize there was more than one buffer. They were doing, announcing And they hate each other apparently. No, apparently they were estranged or they didn't know that they were brothers. Oh, they've been brought together by football. And they became Yeah, it has unites the buffers.
25:54Jonathan Wilson:You know. Thank you Gianni. Apparently they're both, they were both became announcers without knowing each other. So it's DNA genetics. It's its nature, not nurture. Really loud voices, shithousery. it's like yeah then we go to the half time show Ginz with Madonna being driven around by Ronaldinho and Ronaldo which in a dune buggy in a dune buggy which I quite liked back yeah that was good then we had the Muppets doing Seven Nation Army once again I wasn't against that the Muppets are very New York aren't they I think so
26:28John Brewin:yeah they feel
26:29Jonathan Wilson:New York
26:30Max Rushden:my only problem with that was it was clearly well they weren't playing live some representatives of Dr. Teeth and the Electric Mayhem but several key members were missing, including, I think, Zoot, the sax player, who was my favourite. Right. Apart from Animal, obviously.
26:49Barry Glendenning:Is that a conscientious objection to FIFA? I don't know. Maybe Zoot's been cancelled the last 20 years.
26:54Max Rushden:I mean... Zoot was Oot? Yeah. I would say Zoot is a Muppet of principle.
27:00Jonathan Wilson:Right, okay. Then we had BTS. Then we had BTS. We all aspired in Muppets of principle, don't we? Yeah. BTS came on, and they were better. of all the Koreans on show this World Cup they definitely perform better than the footballers then our friend Brendan Hunt Coach Beard came out with Ted Lasso to introduce Justin Bieber you enjoyed that didn't you? well I said to John we were outside watching this on the laptop because it was too noisy inside and I said well at least he can hold a tune and what did you call him? well I probably
27:32John Brewin:can't repeat what I said no no you did I said my point was that you said he can hold a tune and I said, well, Shane McGowan couldn't hold a tune but the songs are miles better.
27:43Jonathan Wilson:And I said, why do we have to keep comparing Shane McGowan and Justin Bieber? Why can't we just enjoy both of them?
27:48John Brewin:Well, one of them's good. That's the point, right? And the whole point, what I was saying, compared him to a motorway service sandwich. He's a service station sandwich. Just this sort of, it does the job. It's sort of in tune. It's that. It was, I believe at the end of his performance, I believe, sorry, at the end of his performance he sort of walked off like he'd been subbed off or something
28:09Barry Glendenning:yeah yeah like a 50 yard it was like he was walking a penalty or something it was a 50 yard walk
28:13John Brewin:one of the hardest walks in football he was subbed on by Brendan yeah he was how was that well I mean
28:20Max Rushden:and he sang everything hallelujah and then Shakira came on and she sang
28:26John Brewin:a world cup hallelujah yeah I prefer Dr. Albin sing hallelujah oh well that is a great song
28:32Jonathan Wilson:yeah okay and Shakira well Roy Keane enjoyed Shakira so it's always nice to see Shakira then we had Miss Piggy and Kermit with the children's choir I mean this is so the football match I mean it was actually probably more entertaining than the first half oh it was definitely
28:47Barry Glendenning:more entertaining I'd quite like to see in the Argentinian set about the entire half band show
28:54Jonathan Wilson:Peredas going in
28:55John Brewin:on Miss Piggy Giuliano Simeone is a better children's entertainer than footballer
28:59Jonathan Wilson:I don't know I don't know but they look having a good time the kids dancing with Shakira they look pretty well trained as dancers but the ones jumping about were Chris Martin I think they might just be like some nice kids I didn't know Chris Martin was there Wayne Rooney said I thought it was crap
29:15John Brewin:Did you see that Matthew Letizia on Twitter said I mean literally you could say anything now He said the pundits are deliberately not criticising he spotted a conspiracy there and Wayne smashed it.
29:34Jonathan Wilson:Oh, really?
29:34John Brewin:Oh, dear.
29:35Jonathan Wilson:So he was saying that he thought that all the pundits were here on it. He thought they were
29:38John Brewin:trying to be too nice because, you know, they're all part of the system.
29:41Jonathan Wilson:I suppose because it's the World Cup final and we've heard all that this half-hour show, we're watching it in a way that, you know, I didn't hate it, but then I would hate it to be in every football match. And I think if England were playing in the final, I would be like, fuck's sake, lads.
29:57Max Rushden:I suspect if it's Lincoln City who gets raging in Carabao a couple of a Tuesday, you might struggle. To get that kind of line up.
30:07Jonathan Wilson:It would just be, it would be half an hour of just, you know, it would be just like middle-aged men in slippy shoes
30:15John Brewin:trying to score from the halfway line. I think it's Sinsel Bank would probably reject Justin Bieber. They'd probably say, you're not good enough mate.
30:22Barry Glendenning:Maybe the Lincoln Cathedral Choir.
30:24Jonathan Wilson:They could do a job. They're better than Justin Bieber. The trophy presentation then, we get to that. Apparently Christian Marrero didn't shake Trump's hand. Roger didn't seem
30:33John Brewin:overly he got it done he got it done but he yeah there was a bit of grace towards the president but just sort of move straight on didn't he
30:40Jonathan Wilson:and then Trump didn't he he tried to stay didn't he
30:44Max Rushden:Gianni ushered him away he stayed for the lift yeah and then Gianni was trying to drag him you know had the shepherd's crook out yeah
30:53Barry Glendenning:he's basically in the same position as we were looking at to the right as to the Fuente was to the left so I suspect in sort of 30 or 40 years there'll be historians and go, which one of these blokes was the manager of Spain? Yeah, that's true.
31:05Jonathan Wilson:And Guy Mowbray did point out that the King of Spain is the tallest current living monarch. It's a good stat. It's a great stat, isn't it? Actually, Giles, King of Spain. Oh, cool. Well, that is true. But, you know, good touch for a big man by all accounts the King of Spain.
31:19Barry Glendenning:ever monarch is. That Swedish fellow was really big, wasn't he? Might be a Dutch monarch. I reckon Wenceslas Croatian's a massive. Well, the Fangerpans
31:30Jonathan Wilson:in the he is very tall 10 minutes to go Max let's get to England says producer Joel but yeah if you know who the tallest monarch is let us know I think it's Charles Singy the Swedish lad Charles Singy 1st of September live at Vicar Street for more stuff like this in Dublin 9th of September the Soho Theatre in Walthamstow please come along the Soho one is the Soho Theatre one is live streamed as well so wherever you are on earth you can go to that one guardian.co.uk slash football weekly live and yeah quite a lot of tickets have gone so buy them or be disappointed and that'll do for part 2 part 3 we'll do France 4 England 6
32:12Jonathan Wilson:welcome to part 3 of the Guardian Football Weekly so the 3rd 4th place playoff was the real quiz England 4-0 up a half time a notoriously dangerous lead France came back to 4-3 and then we got a penalty by the time of the penalty I was like shh god we really need that I was into it and Bellingham's going I was like, thank God for that. Misaka scored the penalty. Yeah, sorry. Yeah, Misaka scored the penalty, yes. You were on the minute by minute, John. Possibly.
32:36John Brewin:How did you keep up with that? Possibly the busiest minute by minute of my career. Well, it was also fun. It was fun to do. It was a fun game. It didn't mean anything before we get to that, Barry. But it was entertaining. It was... Yeah, here we go. But at a certain point, though, it almost turned against Thomas Tuchel again, didn't it? There was a point when it came to 4-3, the knives were being resharpened, weren't they? We mentioned the wrap-to earlier, didn't we, as a metaphor. And it just, I thought, oh, no, please. And then the Bellingham goal, the clincher. What a silly goal. That is power league.
33:22John Brewin:That is next goal wins. That goal's not scored in our league, is it?
33:25Jonathan Wilson:Barry and I, we were saying, I think when it went to 4-3, when we got the penalty, I was like, imagine if this was the World Cup final. How utterly, I would have been absolutely broken by this falling up at half-time, dancing around.
33:39Max Rushden:Producer Joel was saying he'd have died at like a thousand deaths if that was the actual World Cup final. But I think if that had been the World Cup final, France might have tried a bit in the first half of it, isn't it? And that, you know, both team selections would have been very different. I think France went into it not really caring because they've won the World Cup not so long ago. It was mainly how many goals can Mbappe score to make sure he wins the golden boot. There is an argument, of course, to be made that if you're in the third and fourth place playoff, you've been eliminated. therefore those goals shouldn't count.
34:24Max Rushden:I'm not sure if I care enough to argue strenuously in favour against but it was a fun game. I wasn't paying a huge amount of attention to it if I'm honest. We were watching it together and I would say coming third is better than not coming third. You get something, a memento.
34:45John Brewin:The stat about the French was that Malagusto was the only tackle made by a Frenchman in the first half or the only French defender to make it so. So that maybe tells you a little bit about how the game was played.
34:57Jonathan Wilson:It's quite funny how WhatsApp groups started going, oh, if only we'd played like this. And you're trying to say this. You just can't compare this with the Argentina game. No, of course you can't. I mean, it wasn't really football.
35:06Barry Glendenning:It was something exciting. It was soccer-y. It was something slightly disgusting. Andy McGuinness came on on the 63rd minute. No one noticed. Vaguely related to football. What you do realise when you see that is how good these people are at football and what they could do if teams didn't defend. As you realise how good defences normally are. But this, I mean, you've already made one sandwich analogy but this was like an American sandwich. It was just full of stuff that doesn't need to be there. It gives you empty calories. It's sort of, there's too much fat, there's too much sugar. You start feeling slightly nauseous.
35:36Barry Glendenning:There's no nutritional value. I mean, it was... But it was sort of fun as well? It was fun. It was the most fun England game I saw this whole tournament.
35:43Jonathan Wilson:I felt vaguely nauseous by the end. Right. Okay. No, I had a nice time and thought maybe we shouldn't enter tournaments. We should just play some friendlies during the tournament that I can just watch without being in agony. So the only point is Saka scores a hat-trick, right? The fourth player, fourth English men's player to score a hat-trick at a World Cup after Hurst, Lineker and Kane. And he didn't play a minute in the semi-finals. And he was fit for the semi-finals. And the semi-final wasn't good. So you're going, well, should he have, could he, should he have done something there?
36:11John Brewin:Yeah, Morgan Rodgers was not an unqualified success in that role. Well, he set up the goal. Yeah, but he didn't...
36:19Jonathan Wilson:More could he have come off the bench then?
36:20John Brewin:Yeah, but this is the issue, isn't it? And Thomas Tuchel admitted that he was fit and Saka said in the post-match, I was fit, which felt a bit like... We've had this whole World Cup where the England players have matched the honesty of their manager and it's led to a few stories and questions against him and I think Saka could have done the outball. The phrase we kept using in the post-mortem of that game, Saka is a fairly useful player to use up opposing defenders and for some reason Thomas Tuchel I'm sure will have to explain this in the fullness of time but it seems weird and then for him to score a hat-trick and also Bellingham interesting that he let him have the penalty which shows it was a bit soccer aid I don't know actually
37:07Barry Glendenning:I think it's entirely possible that Saka is the second choice penalty taker after Kane
37:12John Brewin:yeah but Bellingham could have been going for seven goals to be the first Englishman to score seven goals, which he eventually was.
37:18Barry Glendenning:But I think he's got that...
37:19John Brewin:He wants to be captain, is what we're told.
37:21Barry Glendenning:It's a thing that kind of, I think, can wind people up. I think he wind Cole Palmer up in the Euros, that Bellingham is overtly mature and overtly doing the right thing. And to him, you're taking the penalty, getting all the... Pressure. The pressure, yeah, and having Mignon sort of standing in his face, and he's like, actually, Saka's going to take it. Yeah. I think I don't say the word performant because I don't really mean that but it's sort of it is him adopting that leadership head boy in an overt way which is part of his personality
37:56Jonathan Wilson:do you think like we all sat around straight after the Argentina game and were very critical of Tuchel put it all on Tuchel and since then there's been a bit of a revision about whether it was the players dropping deep and Tuchel trying to help them out because he saw there was nowhere else that nothing else that he could have done and then it's all gone back a bit with people going well hang on he is the manager you know and he mentioned dna i don't know i don't know if you're all in the same place you were after that pretty much i mean you know i know barney is quite pro
38:28Barry Glendenning:tuchel on this and thinks because he looks like him that's you said that yeah looks like him dresses like him waves his arms around like him but you know we saw what happened england started to drop deep it's then two close jobs and manages to stop them doing that you'd hope that he would have recognized that this is a perpetual english problem and begun to deal with it before the you know the hydration break in the middle of the second half but his way of dealing with it was to double down on it and it's not that we sort of recognized in hindsight that this was a mistake uh at the time i turned to joel and said england don't make extra time here yeah yeah yeah it was obvious what was going to happen and yeah maybe i don't know i mean i will is it i guess the the you could extend the argument say is there anything you could have done that would have actually made a difference and maybe maybe there isn't yeah but having no out ball having 12 % possession between taking the lead and going behind surely that could have been extended to
39:26John Brewin:13 18 20 i suppose the only thing is and this is what some is alluding to is we've seen that before where England players panic and start to go very defensive. But that was his job to turn it around. And you can try and be philosophical about how we went out of the World Cup as a country, but the initial reaction was probably the right one, I think. That Tuchel made a mess of a situation that he was employed to deal with.
39:56Jonathan Wilson:He can't just say, actually, yeah, I didn't.
39:57John Brewin:Well, that is, we talked about his pride, and I think that is going to be an issue. and as we said, the knives sharpen and he's got a lot to prove. Thankfully for him, England have a pretty decent record as a host of tournaments.
40:13Barry Glendenning:Well, the thing is England are now good so they'll probably get to the semis. They might get a tough draw and go out in the quarters but there's no third place to save him
40:21John Brewin:at the Euros.
40:22Max Rushden:Thank goodness, yeah. I heard some good analysis on this from Emma Hayes and she kind of said there is a lot of blame to go around. She doesn't hold him entirely responsible. I think she said, because I've heard so much, I'm a bit confused, but I think who said what, but some of it has just been ranty and performative. And I have to say, I have thoroughly enjoyed the meltdown that seems to be going on at home in the UK. It's been absolutely tremendous entertainment. but I think he got some of his substitutions wrong and I think he made a mess of it
41:05Jonathan Wilson:it would be so nice to Quantum Leap and just do like for like and see what happens Ziggy says you've still got a 0 % chance but I do think
41:16Max Rushden:we're not after time in here we were saying it at the time we were all standing around the same table going this that he has made a ball
41:27John Brewin:yeah it just made you feel more and more anxious when you realise that he was doing nothing to change the flow and it just was always inevitable at that point
41:36Jonathan Wilson:but as Argentina proved today they are peerless and the best footballing team in the conference isn't it I didn't notice
41:42Max Rushden:like at the end of that game when Argentina actually bothered to try and start playing football they were still doing that little short corner thing creating the angle for someone to have a shot didn't work for them today but how has no one gone they're going to do this don't let them
42:00Jonathan Wilson:anyway that'll do for today Brendan says hey Max Barry and all who made the days fly by I'm glad they flew by for someone what happens to you now the tournament's over do you get time off for good behaviour is it straight into pre-season training previews transfer talk cheers for keeping it light and tight we are taking a couple of weeks off we've got a couple of mail bags in the can so if you are desperate to hear any more of us, they'll come out on the next couple of Mondays.
42:27Max Rushden:We all get put in little Louis Vuitton
42:30Jonathan Wilson:cases for a couple of weeks. Exactly. And then we'll be allowed out for the start. I got an email
42:37Max Rushden:from a friend of the show and guardian head of football Marcus Christensen the other day. Barry, can you send me your Premier League predictions? I could not believe it.
42:50Jonathan Wilson:What? It never stops. but that'll do for today thanks everybody thank you thank you John thanks for having me thanks Wilson thank you thanks Barry thank you Max it's been quite the ride hasn't it thank you to all the panelists especially the ones who stayed up all night memories of how tired Dan Bardell looked one time when the Zoom came on was he tired
43:11Barry Glendenning:and I was in Mexico
43:11Jonathan Wilson:I don't think anyone was as tired as you were on the first step of this series thanks to all the people back in the office as well who did some of the work and thank you so much to the production team Rory Simon Matt Bettany Vianney, Joel Grove, they have worked absolutely tirelessly and put out with our bullshit for six weeks, getting this published, getting the video up on YouTube, so when we turn this off and we say goodbye, we can go for a pint and they actually have to go to work, so thank you to them, it's greatly appreciated, and thanks for listening to it, because quite a lot of you did, and if you're new, thank you, and if you're old, also thank you, and we'll be back in well, next Monday, but we've already done that, we'll be back in person type thing in three weeks time.
43:56Jonathan Wilson:This is The Guardian.