Sunderland’s derby joy and Mo Salah returns – Football Weekly

0:00This is The Guardian.

0:30perhaps he can start a support group with Yersin Mosquera poor Wolves, they dug in at the Emirates equalised in the last minute before the Colombian headed into his own net, is there a worse way to lose, Mo Salah back in the squad and on the pitch in the first half for Liverpool, he played okay but not as well as Hugo Eketike, another two for him, Enzo Maresca has the worst 48 hours as Chelsea manager, Thomas Frank has a pretty normal 90 minutes as Spurs manager, Man City remain ominous, Villa keep the pressure on and Fulham break their turf more hoodoo, the new Celtic manager Wilfred Nancy hasn't had an ideal start to his tenure Three defeats in three as St Mirren win the Scottish League Cup.

1:00All that plus your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:08On the panel today, Barry Glendening, welcome. Hello, Max. Hello, Robin Cowan. Hi, Max. And good morning, Nader Manuha. Morning, Max. Let's start then at the Stadium of Light. Sunderland 1, Newcastle 0. Nick Valtemader's 46-minute own goal. You were there, Barry. How was it? I was there, Max. It's very kind of you to give this game top billing because it was a staggeringly bad game of football. But a wonderful occasion for me as a Sunderland fan. I got up to Sunderland on Saturday evening and I went to the pub to watch Fulham Burnley because that's how I roll. Or Burnley Fulham, I should say. And yeah, it was quite the experience.

1:56I don't know if it's like that every Saturday in Sunderland or just because it was the eve of Derby, but a lot of people out, very festive atmosphere. Sleeping Beauty was on in the Union Theatre, Panto, and loads of people in Christmas jumpers, everyone having a lovely time. Not too long after that game ended, news broke of the death of Sunderland legend Gary Roll after a long illness. and it was like someone had flicked a switch. Just everything went very calm or quiet and maudlin and you could see people were generally upset by that. Gary, sorry, before my time, but he famously scored a hat-trick in Tyneweer Derby at St.

2:42James' Park when both teams were in Division II in 1979. So he's held in very high regard. local lad held a very high regard at Sunderland. So they had a minute's applause before the game for him. And that went, I think it was more, it went on and on and on and on before the ref finally blew his whistle and the game got started. Terrible game. Like I watched the highlights again on match of the day this morning, and it was quite telling that I think their first half highlights consisted of three or four bookings. the Sunderland Tifo and Dan Byrne getting clattered and having to go off with damaged ribs.

3:26Needless to say, he got a very unsympathetic reception from the Sunderland fans. And then shortly after halftime, Nick Vultemade scored that bullet header past his own goalkeeper. It turned out to be the match winner. Neither team were particularly good. Sunderland at least tried to play a bit of football with limited success. I think by the time Volta Medi scored that goal, neither team had had a shot on target, or even a shot maybe. So very low in quality, but the Sunderland fans didn't care, didn't give a hoop. And then after the game, Sunderland exacted revenge on Newcastle, who had famously taken that selfie in front of the fans at Stadium Alight when they swatted Sunderland aside in the FA Cup two years ago.

4:16So Sunderland took a selfie in front of their fans. I think it was Jason Tindall who masterminded that stunt at the stadium light. And after the game, I was working in the media room and I went outside to have a go on the life-giving apparatus that is my vape. And who should I see scuttling out the door and into the back of a people carrier, like some mob boss being ushered from a courtroom? but Mr. Jason Tindall head down, scurrying away into the back of the car and he was driven off into the night so that was kind of funny but a brilliant result for Sunderland I think Newcastle fans will try to pretend they don't care about this because they've got bigger fish to fry but this was a bad defeat for them, they really didn't turn up, Anthony Gordon Valtamada and Anthony Alanga, their front three were dismal, like so bad.

5:16I was shocked by how bad they were. But thank you, Nick, for your telling contribution. It's quite an achievement to be a fan favourite with Newcastle fans, but even more of a fan favourite with Sunderland fans at the same time. That is a moment that will live with him forever, Nate. It's the brutality of football. Actually, the beauty of football and rivalry is that is it's memes straight away it's t-shirts there'll be songs about him at the Stadium of Light now forever unless he does something extraordinary when he plays you know at St. James' Park against London or in the next two three years or whatever like that is a moment like and it sort of feels slightly unfair for like some 23 year old German who just tipped up a few months ago listen you've always got to be careful when you bring in fairness like what does that mean to you what that means to you might be different to somebody else but you are right that goal will be remembered forever I think he could be great in the next derbies to come, but he still scored the winning goal for Sunderland against Newcastle in his first derby.

6:18You won't be able to escape that. And yeah, as a young person, he's going to be thinking about that. Maybe it motivates him to do better in the future, but you can't erase history. That goal will be shown over and over and over and over. And in some ways, it's kind of because of what Barry said, because there's not much else we could show from the game itself. But from my perspective, that game in itself, it's not a great game of football, but I think it's a brilliant derby. I think the way that it finished as well kind of summed it up. In added time, everyone's this like fake fisticuffs, tough guy routine, which we've all been through.

6:50We're all doing that. The ball's coming in the box. How do you defend a kitchen sink? Well, you headbutt it apparently. You just keep doing that. Ball goes out to the side. I think it was Trey Hume. He put in a tackle on, I don't know who it was. And that got one of the loudest cheers in the stadium as well because of what it means in that moment. So that chaos and that level of competitiveness where it goes beyond the football because every fan in there was all right with you doing that on this day. I think you'd be judged according to different standards for different games. But in that match itself, they want to see your players fight.

7:20They want to see them battle. And yeah, at some point you would like to see a bit more creativity. But without that first part, people aren't going to be happy with you. So yeah, I think to go back to it for Valtomada, he will not be able to escape that. While he's living in the Northeast, he will not be able to escape that. and while anyone in the North East is going to have any sort of link to his social media or whatever, he will not be able to escape it. It doesn't matter how well he's doing. But yeah, I've got to say, awkwardly, it's a great header. It's such a good header. But unfortunately, it's just in the wrong net, isn't it?

7:50I mean, if he really looks ahead, Robin, he can do in 20, 30 years, the after dinners or maybe 40 years for him. Like it's a good, he's got an anecdote that, you know, you only need two or three to base a career on, in my experience. So maybe that's a positive. Now, a lot of people, Robin, are comparing this to the Ian Dowie v Stockport header. And I mean, I'm firmly in the camp that Dowie is superior, far superior to this. But I don't know what you think. I mean, I think they might have to sell him.

8:23In January. Yeah, I know he's done pretty well. But I just think this couldn't have gone worse for Volta Marder and for Nuka. I mean, is that anything more delicious as a Sunderland fan that their sort of star striker gets the winner for you? It's just a bit too rich. It's just incredible. Yeah, I mean, it just must have been great. You've got Granit Xhaka bloodied like Bruce Willis and Die Hard. It was just honestly, it was like the perfect day for Sunderland. What I would say is that the only thing I did notice was Brian Brobby perhaps could have been sent off. and it's interesting. I mean, Aidan might come in on this, but I don't know, would you prefer a yellow for someone brandishing a pretend card or for crunching someone's ankle?

9:13I think, you know, that one didn't get one. It's just, yeah, but I mean, it's Sunderland. I mean, I think also the context has been lost a bit, hasn't it? Sunderland, that's another win for them. You know, they're seventh. It's just, what a season. What a season they're having. It's so, so impressive. I think, you know, Bruce Willis is slightly more bloodied. Had Xhaka been in a string vest and literally caked in blood, that would have been better. I was going to say, in regards to the card situation, I'm just going to turn a blind eye to that as a former Sunderland player. I'm going to say everything's fine with it.

9:43But in terms of, like, on-goal tiers, this is obviously a very good one. But for the purest of 90s football, in particular Man City, Jamie Pollock in 1998. Well, Pollock's is great. True. Against QPR. If a strike would have scored that goal, you'd probably say it's goal of the season. so you need to look into that one. Yeah, so Pollock lifts the ball over an attacker somehow and then heads it home. The reason I love Dowies is, Dowies against Stockport, I think it's from West Ham, I think it's the Dagenham Motors sponsor, sort of 90s, I think it must be a League Cup game. It's that he, I think, momentarily forgets where he is.

10:23Like he rises and he heads the ball back where it's come from. it's like this Volta Moda there is pace on the cross you can see Volta Moda's just trying to get it away it's still a brilliant header but like Dowie's is absolute pure he doesn't need to head it but he's risen highest and he's put it in and notable mention for Chris Brass I can't remember, maybe playing for Torquay who kicks the ball against his own face I believe breaks his nose and heads home in an FA Cup match really good stuff just on Newcastle, Nadem Like, there's slight issues about, I mean, they're having a bit of a bad season.

11:00I know this has not been fit, but when you look at Volta Marder, 17 million, who did start brilliantly, scores like beautiful goals, but is tailed off a little bit. Alanga hasn't hit the ground running. Jacob Ramsey was left on the bench 40 million. Like, that's 150 odd million pounds of recruitment that hasn't clicked yet. I think, as my view on things like this, is these signings are long-term signings. You'd want them to click and hit the ground running and be great for the length of the contracts, four, five years, six years, whatever it's going to be. But in reality, that's very rarely the case.

11:29And I think with the quality of Newcastle have, and other teams have had as well when new transfers come in, you can afford to not necessarily have them play so well. Yeah, Ramsey's one with injury and so on has been disappointing. I thought Alanga would have played more, to be honest. But then, lo and behold, I'm probably one of thousands of people that is just disrespecting Murphy, who literally continues to get goals and assists for them essentially all the time. Like, what does he do wrong? So, yeah, it's not great. I think they're very much trapped in mid-table there. It's really, really weird.

11:58But then we watch them play in the Champions League and get some good results in the Champions League as well. So we almost raise our belief in them, oh, these are a really good side because they can travel around Europe and get good results against good sides. but when it comes down to domestic football, 21 goals scored, 20 goals conceded, sitting exactly in the table. Welcome to the Premier League again. I guess, Robin, Jürgen Mosquera must have thought he'd scored the most pivotal headed home goal of the weekend at about 9.45 on Saturday night. Poor Wolves. I mean, they dug it. They got two points.

12:29They go to Arsenal, they're top of the table. Arsenal aren't great, but Wolves play well. They defend well. And like, I don't know, Maybe just the release of that equaliser, because it was like every player did his own individual knee slide wherever he happened to be on the pitch. And you think, oh, they've expended too much energy in this celebration. Yeah, no, it was absolutely heartbreaking, wasn't it, for them? And it probably it was their best performance under Rob Edwards. What I would say is that I think I'm not that surprised because when you're facing top of the league, it's almost like no one gives them any chance whatsoever.

13:02so it sort of focuses the mind and and maybe they do raise their game a bit so i wouldn't be actually that surprised if they sort of reverted to type they've got brentford next at home and so this will raise you know rob edgles will be saying you need to play like that again and i'm just not sure if they will but yeah the manner of the defeat was absolutely heartbreaking because yeah they think they've got a point as you say the celebrations are amazing and then they score yet another own goal. They scored all the goals. They scored all the goals. Every single goal. Yeah, I mean, the Johnston one, again, was just so, it's so unlucky, isn't it?

13:40Just, you know, off the post, off his back, just how's your luck? So they celebrate that goal, their goal, sorry, the goal that was helping them, not the other goal, in a positive way because they've only scored nine all season. You know, that's something that we sort of take for granted sometimes, like everybody's scoring, everybody's celebrating, but they're essentially, as far as football goals, just in the pits of hell right now. There's nothing good going for them whatsoever. And I like to, unfortunately, I've had to look through this. When you're in around the bottom three, the most important thing is what's the gap to get out of the bottom three?

14:12And for them at the moment, it's 14 points. It's fair to say that morale probably is not going to be as high as it's ever been at Wolves. So you do need to celebrate those little moments. And people, they won't officially wrap themselves off yet. but after 16 games and you've not won one, the chances are that it's done. You know what I mean? So you're going out and you're trying to find positives and so on. And now we're 1-1 with Arsenal. What an incredible moment for us as bottom of the team. And then it's an on goal. That game finishes. You go sit in his restroom. Rob Edwards, who's in the grand scheme of things new to it, can try and speak of positives.

14:46But for those players, what do you do? You're almost like the plus one that's been invited to this Premier League season. and you know you've kind of forgotten about they'll pull a little table to the side but you still know you know you are at some point good enough to be there but you've got nothing going for you at all so like I say that's heartbreaking I've been in those situations where you've lost those games late and to snide goals or whatever but this is unfortunately the way that football goes and yeah for them it would be nice to see them potentially win a game except for I think when I was at QPR up until recently we had the record for most games to start a season without a win and I think it was around 15-16 it was around this time of year but we weren't on two points I'll tell you that for a fact we had a few more points than that but thankfully Sheffield United took that I think three years ago and now it seems like Wolves are well on the way to putting us third worst ever now As for Arsenal is this a sign of grinding out results or with City breathing down their necks would you as an Arsenal fan get slightly concerned they lost to Villa they were okay in that Villa game they weren't great in this one you know like is this is this their little you know their little rut and if they're winning in that rut it's okay I don't think this particular game was a case of them grinding out results.

15:57I think they got very lucky. And, you know, take it. Take it. Forget about it. Put that performance behind you and move on. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. They were lucky here to win. If this is the rut, then what a nice rut to be in if you're still winning the games. If I was Mikel Arteta, I'd be furious with that performance. I think I said last week, I thought he took the Villa defeat on the chin and went, fair enough, we weren't terrible, we just lost and that happens. But if they drop points here, I imagine he would have been furious. I'd say he's probably furious anyway, but there's no question they got lucky here.

16:41Arsenal, they're still, for me, they've been the most consistent team in the league so far this year, which is why it feels strange that there are only two points clear at the top of the table. but the run of fixtures that are coming up for them I thought after the last international break there's going to be a tough run and they're going to see where they were at based on that and they went against Bayern Munich I think the result against Chelsea fine whatever hammered Spurs so I thought they're in a good position the next few games and this is me looking at thinking all of a sudden it feels a bit different they've got Everton away next week eight o 'clock on the Saturday I think it is then at home to Brighton at home to Villa again away to Bournemouth then at home to Liverpool whereas say two three weeks ago you can feel there's a sense of belief and they're just going to steamroll everyone all of a sudden you start making the case that maybe it's not going to be that easy and I think the players and the manager know it's never going to be that easy but for every time you show weakness or you show something that encourages the opposition the opposition will take that opportunity and set up differently to play against you and I think Arsenal starting to drift towards that position and obviously they might still win the league title and so on and they need people behind them to be chasing but this run of fixtures coming up now again we'll test them in a manner which you know where they decide whether they are going to be Premier League champions or not especially with the injuries and stuff that they have at this moment.

17:55Liverpool be Brighton 2-0 I mean Robin this game should be about Hugo Eketike but it's still all about Mo Salah like whatever happened like if he if Salah's like came on as he did and did okay that's a story if he started that'd be a huge story if he was on the bench and didn't come on which is sort of the one you know we kind of wanted because it would have been funny like there would have been a massive story in the end he comes on in the 26th minute you feel for joe gomez and everyone's going are you sure is this joe just going i've been asked to do this but obviously you know uh that isn't what happened it's a shame for him because you know he's had real injury problems but it's still the sally story i just wonder what you made of of this this uh you know episode in the series my main takeaway is i think slot has played this absolutely brilliantly perfectly the way he's done this what he said has been sort of without ego um he's been very adult about it and he's not said much at all he said kind of the bare minimum and he's kind of not closed the door on salah and he's not added fuel to the fire i think what was surprising for me i don't cover liverpool that much i'm not like involved in the club i was quite surprised by the reception he got It was kind of unanimously positive, wasn't it, from inside Anfield.

19:09And I think that just illustrates again how well Slott has done, because he could probably recognise that, that you can't, even though he's not indispensable anymore, Mo Salah, and rightly shouldn't be starting every single game, you kind of can't, as I say, set fire to this situation because the fans still absolutely love him. So I just think Slott has really been great, but he probably is thinking, thank Christ he's going now so I can kind of get to the Afghans and I don't have to deal with this anymore. I mean, you know, obviously he still can contribute and he got an assist, didn't he? Yeah, so it's just I feel like Slott deserves a lot of credit for this.

19:54A much-loved nan at Christmas, but who's really snide to you just in the interview. and then and then when they leave at 5 p.m you're like oh you can finally relax and enjoy the rest of the evening he's gonna have a lie down now i mean i don't know if you saw this perry soccer saturday did about five minutes of like raging debate about how happy or sad mo salla looked when he walked into anfield and he was just sort of like he just wasn't like grinning like a madman as he wandered into the place but he did get a nice ovation i guess the two things can be true at the same time. What he did was wrong and going public was wrong, but he can still be loved by the Liverpool fans because he is, you know, he is one of their greatest players of all time.

20:34And Liverpool have had some really good players during all time. They certainly have, yeah. I didn't see the five minutes of debate on Soccer Saturday, but, you know, they have a lot of time to fill on Soccer Saturday. It's about an eight-hour show. so that's fine i am a keen student of players getting off the bus and walking into the stadium do they wear beats headphones do they wear buds are they chewing furiously uh do they shake hands with the waiting club officials do they steadfastly ignore them yeah i think you can tell a lot about players by the way they get off the team bus see also how they deal with mascots in the tunnel do they ignore them do they chat to them do they attempt to put them at their ease etc and so on but um that's me just being weird i guess or you're auditioning for sucker saturday it sounds like to me yeah i mean look it's it's i suppose it's like a family member or what do they call it the kids call a friendship group if someone massively f's up you know you you bollock them out of it but you can't stay mad at them for long and you forgive them and welcome them back into the fold uh and it happens people mess up all the time so i i totally get that they might have been a bit annoyed with him but there's no point in further antagonizing him and he is mo salah he has done a lot for them yeah he might uh oh and adam hello what comes after the i'm gonna start this off by saying obviously i'm not a liverpool fan so their perspective is going to be very different to say my one here yeah but i think it's interesting this whole spell because it's shown that those goal posts that we thought were very much stuck in the ground actually have some wheels on them and they will move however you want depending on who it is because say from the perspective of what Salah came out and said a week ago like a lot of that stuff just by itself felt quite selfish within an instance where everyone else is trying to be selfless as they discuss their football club and a lot of people said that's wrong like they understood that he'd be upset based on his standing but they said it was wrong and he said it was wrong and he did something that was out in the public and I'm all for forgiveness and so on but I thought well obviously Salah's going to apologize in the public as well then but for me personally I have not seen that so the ability to move on that quickly and then you wonder well what was his punishment well he didn't travel to Milan midweek but then he was still back in the squad for the week after I think I don't think every player gets afforded that sort of luxury and if it's based on say what Salah's done to this point then it kind of confirms what Salah was saying in his messaging anyway that I've done so much that I should be starting I've done so much that you know you can't treat me like this and in some ways that makes me feel it's a bit uncomfortable like just a bit uncomfortable but then again it shows as i say the goalposts will move if you if you like a player or if you don't so then the next time we go the opposite way around a particular player that sounds disgruntled well we're just gonna have to get called hypocrites because that's essentially what's happened yeah but then i guess then it isn't a precedent because you can treat different players differently depending on how good they are i guess listen i'm 100 okay with that yeah but it's just when people say this is the standard this is the way it should be and i'm like oh come on man like how about this or how about that it just depends what you're standing is i think i do some work with like james alcott and And he was making a discussion point about different types of player.

24:07And I thought it was a really good one because he said there's the, in fact, he used it in relation to workplaces. There are the newbies who are almost just happy to be there. There are the workers who do what they do. And they're always like, they can always be replaced and so on. Then there are the ones who are at that higher sort of tier. And for me personally, obviously I've never had the importance of like a Mo Salah to any football club. So I'm very much in the worker section. But when you start drifting down towards the worker section because your output isn't as great as, say, it has been in times gone by, then the way that you carry yourself should be looked at in a way of more of a worker as opposed to the person that's indispensable.

24:41Welcome to our club. But instead, it's the opposite. Will you use someone throwing Mo Salah a high-vis and a shovel? Yeah, come over here, pal. Wait, we work longer hours over here, my friend. You know what I mean? Listen, I'm happy that he's happy, Liverpool happy, so on and so forth. But there's been a lot of contradiction in terms of how people have approached it because of the fact that it's Mo Salah, in my opinion. Sure, yeah. We'll have lots of time to talk Liverpool and not Mo Salah during AFCON. But yeah, well done, Hugo Eketike. You deserve more conversation than you got. And that'll do for part one.

25:12Part two will begin with Aston Villa's continued rise.

25:23Welcome to part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So West Ham 2, Aston Villa 3. Last four away games Villa have gone behind in. They've come back to win. This was their sixth win in a row. They are third. They're three points off Arsenal. Nine wins in a row in all competitions. 15 wins in 17. This is a ridiculous run, Barry. And the talk now, the chatter started last week when they beat Arsenal. Do we consider Villa to be title contenders? Are they in the conversation? And I would have said no. But the reason I would have said no last week, and I think I did say no, because A, Villa don't win titles really.

26:05They've won one in my lifetime, I think. That was a very long time ago. I would have been nine at the time. Another reason I would have said no is because having beaten Arsenal last week, going to West Ham and losing would be a typically Villa thing to do. And it looked like that was what was going to happen, but they showed great fortitude. Had a bit of help from West Ham, it must be said, but they showed great fortitude to come back and win. So, yeah, they are in the conversation. I think they have to be. But it's a remarkable run they're on. And we see other teams struggle with the Thursday-Sunday life balance.

26:44Villa don't seem to be having any problems with it at all, unlike, say, Newcastle or Palace, that leap immediately to mind. And Morgan Rodgers, Robin, just... Oh, the second goal, it just looks so epic. but he makes it look like every footballer should be able to do that every time they shoot. Yeah, no, he does. The technique on it looks like it's deflected almost. No, he's ridiculous. I mean, he's another one that's come through the sort of City Academy, isn't he? And he's just, he's fantastic. He's having a great season. And I think Tuka will start him. I think, you know, his body of work for England and for Aston Villa this season.

27:24I just think, I know we'll come on to Spurs, unfortunately, Max, But it's just like they obviously gifted West Ham a goal very early on, didn't they? Esri Contes are making a big mistake. But they have that aura now and that momentum and that confidence that you think, no, they'll be all right. They'll come back from this. And they did. And I think, yeah, just in contrast to some other teams, you just think, you know, shoulders drop and all that. You know, they have a great squad. I think, yeah, that might be the only thing is that, you know, an injury to, say, a Rodgers or someone who's really integral to them might put a stop to it.

28:02Also, I mean, I think it's a bit of a concern. Ollie Watkins is still not firing in front of Goldberg. We need him to do a little bit more. He was quite near Mavropelos when he scored. Yeah, yeah. I think Mavropelos would be fine to give that to him, as was Muscara. But yeah, no. And it's just lovely. Isn't it lovely to see you and I, Emery, jumping for joy? I like it. I enjoy that. I mean, I had a real Barry moment before the Morgan Rodgers second when Lindelof passed him. And I said, hang on. I had been told that. I was like, really? Anyway, Emery says, we're not feeling under pressure. We're feeling ambitious.

28:39We try to challenge in Europe and in the Premier League. Enjoy each match. Try to prepare, then rest. The players must feel comfortable doing it. This is the process we're doing. Now it's Manchester United next Sunday. Meanwhile, West Ham. Lovely tributes to Billy Bonds before the game. They got Man City away next. And do you worry for West Ham, Nadam? I mean, you do, don't you? Because it looks like there are two slots comfortably filled, Wolves and Burnley, if that's not too harsh on Burnley. And then West Ham are, you know, they're there, aren't they? They are there, but they're also three points behind Leeds.