Troy Parrott’s on fire and England complete perfect campaign – Football Weekly

27:09But we are in the press and we are going to look at those things and we're going to pick at them. And that's the game. And that's part of the game that Tugall has to play. Yeah, I suppose the point is, you know, if we're sweating and we lose to Portugal and Bellingham is playing, then it's, as Barney sort of alluded to, then it's, he actually at the time when he shouldn't have picked him, he did pick, you know. So like, as Barney says, until we win the World Cup, then he can't win. and actually what you want, Wilson, as you kind of alluded to, is just a manager who can pick a player and if they're not having a good game or he wants to change the system, he can take him off and he can start someone else and you feel like he is at least doing that, not just with this position, but all over the pitch.

27:48Yeah, I mean, the problem that always happens with any international team is you get these sort of meta-narratives to develop because there's so much space between games that there's no football to talk about. So we talk about the narratives and then every decision that's made, it's not just that well he's decided that he's a better player in this moment for this game, it's oh he's doing this to send a message to somebody else and I'm not sure how much of any of it is true, I just sort of think I mean look, leaving Bellingham out of the squad last time that probably was some kind of message being sent out, but I'm not entirely clear who the message was going to because I think the not discouraging the Morgan Rogers of this world is also really important it was something that struck i was reading a thing that alan brazil had said years and years ago about being a squad player at manchester was it no biggest squad player under ron akinson at manchester united and saying it was really dispiriting because he just knew it didn't matter what he did he was never gonna be a first choice and it sort of occurred to me yeah we always look at it from the other side of the equation from a player who's been out and is coming back in.

28:59But actually the player who takes over, you have to give them something to aim for in a sense that if they play well, then they'll keep their place. And at the moment, Tuchel seems to be saying to Morgan Rodgers, you're actually the man in possession. You're the number one for now. And that I think is probably positive. Is this the first time that Morgan Rodgers has been compared to Alan Brazil? I presume that means Jude Bellingham is the Kenny Dalgleish, so... yeah or the Ray Parler yeah Jonathan's right about the narratives we will forget all this stuff when the real thing happens there was a big thing about the bomb squad this week as well and the finishers having two teams that's the way football's going it's like no it isn't there were loads of questions to Tuchel like is this your bomb squad and he's like I'm not sure what this bomb squad oh it's a phrase from rugby, which is a totally different sport, a different team.

29:57A bomb squad for a start diffuses bombs and makes things not happen. Whereas I think in people's minds, it's the people who come on and explode the status of the game and blah, blah, blah. But there will not be a bomb squad issue. There will not be a team of fit. That won't happen. It's just that we do have to fill a lot. There's too many content channels and not enough content. And so also we talk about the Bellingham thing. Also, Bellingham has become a much better player since then. I mean, how good is Jude Bellingham? Is he really good? Has he played really well for England? I don't know. I think as far as I can tell, his really extreme quality is massive self-belief and being good in big moments.

30:40And he's quite good at lots of things. I mean, I would dispute actually that he's England's most talented player, which I think is colt palmer who i think is in terms of pure talent i i would say he's easily the best creative number 10 is you betting them a number 10 not sure don't think so but we've talked about him as a number 10 and tucall really wants a number 10 and berlingham really doesn't seem to fit that system he described which is i think the root of the problem rather than um berlingham being like a bad guy or something. It's more that he's got that thing of, he's just a very dominant personality.

31:17Not knowing your own limits, not knowing that you're not the best player in the world is a really useful thing when you're 18, 19, 20. As you get older, not knowing your limits and not knowing you're not the best player in the world maybe isn't such a great thing or such an advantage. I'd be really interested to talk to Thomas Tuchel about how he just tactically sees Bellingham fitting into his team and what Bellingham is going to do. because apart from he played really well in Qatar for England when there were two deep midfielders behind him and he was really given that freedom. He was the free player.

31:49Apart from that, he scored an overhead kick. I just don't think it's logical to put him in as one of your absolute building blocks of your team unless you're just basing it on fame, status and which club team you play for. Harry Kane, meanwhile, Wilson, is somebody who I think totally gets how good he is and is absolutely sort of deceptively better than we still think he is, even though we know how many goals he's scored. He's now surpassed Pele's record of international goals, which seems like a record worth mentioning, unlike a lot of Harry Kane's records because they happen all the time. Yeah, I mean...

32:23Or maybe it doesn't. I bother the Pele thing. You know, you're comparing apples and pears. They're two different things. It's great. He scored lots of goals. That's the important thing. And, yeah, I think... But would he get in the Brazil side in 1970? Call us now is what I'm saying. I mean, I think it's Tostar missing out rather than Pelé. But Tostar and Pelé are such a good relationship. I don't think you could do that. But where Harry Kane would fit in, I mean, I think he'd be very useful. They would have won in 82 with Kane in the team. Yeah, better than Serginho, definitely. Stick him in the 82 team.

32:58Yeah, because the great quality he has that would have brought Serginho into the game or Ida in 82 or, you know, Zico, Socrates is he does drop off, but he would need those players to run beyond him. And that is something that Tuchel seems to have, you know, really be focusing on in a way that Southgate didn't at the last Euros. That he's getting the best out of Kane by having, starting with Jared Bowen, for instance, on Sunday, a player who'll run behind him. Rashford as well, Anthony Gordon, a player who'll run beyond him. He has to have that. And that's another problem where Bellingham doesn't quite fit in this side, that Morgan Rodgers does run beyond him.

33:35and so that means that both Rodgers is running in a space that is there but also he gets the best out of Kane because Kane wants to drop into into that number 10 role so yeah Kane I think is somebody who it's not just that he's he's really good and deceptively good he's he's got better and every season he still seems to be getting better because he he seems to study finishing incredibly carefully what's a Harry Kane penalty like in 2022 two his his main penalty was smash it to the top to the top left and but he you know he's taken that second penalty against France he knows that Hugo Lloris has played against him in training God knows how many times he knows that Lloris knows that and it puts a doubt in his mind so what's his reaction to that he now has about 15 penalties all different run-ups all different finishes every run-up has two or three different finishes from it it's it ceases to be game theory with him it becomes just can he put the ball in the net he's taken the game theory out of penalties i don't know anybody else has done that he's a more varied penalty taker than i think anybody else in history and that's that's because he he thinks about and he works on it and that's that's an incredible virtue it's not a glamorous virtue but it's a good virtue i suppose we don't know how many different penalties kevin pressman had because we've only seen him take one but what a penalty it was um john i about two years after i was demanding it someone pressed the adam wharton button how did you think he did yeah okay I mean not a bad debut I think Tuchel was fairly impressed Dalbania were actually quite a difficult opposition weren't they they made it it's a reasonable test for him it's one of those isn't it where Tuchel has so many options but you would expect that Wharton's skill set might be that which brings the best from the players around him it reminds me a little of Michael Carrick how he used to play for Manchester United, which is, he's not a glamorous player, but he keeps the team rolling with his movement, his passing.

35:33I am in the Wharton fan club like you. First time I saw him play for Palace, I just thought, wow, he's got it all. And he is a player that, come next summer, is going to be in huge demand in the transfer market, you would have thought. But will that be at the same time as him being an England starter at the World Cup? I'm not quite sure yet. I'm not quite sure that Tuchel is sure about that. And also, he's been a bit unlucky, hasn't he, with injuries around those England squads, so that Tuchel's not really had a chance to look at him. So let's see what goes on in the friendlies before the World Cup.

36:08But if Wharton is at his best, then he's ideal for what Tuchel wants to do. It's just whether he arrives in that state when they go to North America. And I suppose Elliot Anderson has the shirt and hasn't really done anything wrong. Who's been excellent as well. He hasn't played anyone else. Yeah, he hasn't. They haven't played anyone brilliant while Anderson has been brilliant. Barney at the back, not conceding any goals in qualifying seems ridiculous, especially because, you know, the back four has not been settled at all. Yeah, I mean, I think it is related to the opposition to some degree.

36:40It's very hard to kind of judge. Nick O 'Reilly, who I still have a problem with his name. You've got to call yourself Nick O 'Reilly. You can't be Nick O 'Reilly. You sound like Father Christmas is saying your name. But that's for him to deal with. And obviously, he's always been just called Nico. Now he's got two names because he's famous. So, yeah, that's not really the issue, though. The issue is he's a really, really good footballer. I mean, he's brilliant. I love him. He's physically fantastic. He's so confident. He's a great Guardiola footballer. But he has never been asked to defend at left back for 60 minutes against a really good France team.

37:18He doesn't know if he's good at defending like that. He's not playing left back for a team that just finds different meanings to what left back is. So I think Livramento is injured, which is a shame because I think he's a really good fullback and can play left, and he'd probably be number one in that position right now. Centre backs are great. John Stones goes under the radar, doesn't he? He's only 31, I want to say. Yeah, I somehow feel he should be 37 or something. He's been around for so long. He's been around forever. But like still playing well for England, even if Pep clearly thinks he can't really do two games in a week.

37:57And alongside him, there are options, you know, good, solid athletic defenders. We're talking about the midfield and Elliot Anderson is absolutely going to be the first choice in that position because he provides a really good screening presence and that's been a big part of it. He passes quickly as well. But I think that, say that Wharton's got everything, but the one reservation about him is physicality, which I think is a real shame, but unfortunately that's where we are. And he's a slight, you know, nice, I like watching him move because he sort of is, he's not one of these super athletes.

38:30You know, he's kind of sliding around the pitch and what he loves is the ball. He's just great with the ball. And I wish that we had a kind of football culture and a national team where that was what everybody prizes, but it's not. And Anderson also is a really good technical player, but can move a bit better and is going to win duels, the kind of physical duels, more easily. So he will definitely be ahead of him as things stand when it comes to... And that's been a really important thing in midfield because Declan Rice, even though he likes to go forward more, is also perpetual motion and that's really helped the defence.

39:04I think England also have a really good goalkeeper, which we kind of tend to overlook slightly because they don't play in the Champions League but Pickford's been really good in this campaign. But they will not have to deal with the fact that they'll play really good attacking teams for the first time in three years when they get to the World Cup. And we'll see how it looks then, won't we? Yeah. When's the heartbreak going to happen, Wilson? What's your, as we predict it on the 17th of November, which arguably is a pointless thing to do, but what do you reckon? What do you foresee? Do you see heartbreak against Argentina in a quarterfinal?

39:44I always think this is one of the most absurd things we do in football. It's like winning the transfer window. Oh, I think they don't get to the semi-final. That's been a failure. But, you know, England had a much better World Cup in 1998 than they did in 2006, but they went out around earlier. It just depends who you play and when and how you play in that game. You know, it's Denmark, one of the teams of the 80s, went out in the last 16 in 1986, which people forget about. You know, it's all about, you could get a really easy run, as England did in 2006, play rubbish and think you're quite unlucky to go out on penalties.

40:21Or you could play brilliantly and go out in the last 16. The round you reach is less important than how you play. They could win it. It's entirely possible they win it. I think what Max is looking for is the sort of cold play, sad moment is when that's happening, isn't it, Steve? Yeah, when do they play cast walk away? That's what I'm thinking, you know. Well, 1996, I assume. Yeah, okay. Yeah, and we had Stop Crying Your Heart Out by Oasis in 2002, I think it was. And you just want, yeah, it's that moment, isn't it, of these young, sweat-drained men crying, you know, a sort of, you know, the David Seaman sobbing on the sidelines as he did in Japan.

41:06And, you know, those are the scenes that we are, as a nation, conditioned to expect. Outside pubs, as people hitting vapes all agonise over, why didn't we play Wharton? Or, I told you Bellingham was a waste of space. Talk about pressing high and all that nonsense. You know, pretending they know what they're talking about, like we do. These are the moments that bring the nation together, aren't they? Actually winning it would be really weird. And almost, even though we've been to two finals, England beat two finals, is an almost impossible moment to consider. It would be very interesting if England did win the World Cup, because it's one of those things where you suddenly remove.

41:51I wonder how people would react. It would be very, very hard. I think that, what would it actually mean? I mean, what would it express about English football and English culture if England did win the World Cup? I think it would reflect that the Premier League is this global league. I mean, how English is the football? How indigenous? What's it actually expressing about our culture, other than the fact that we have the most successful commercially dominant league, which is now full of really good coaches and academies and a way of... Is it reflecting the culture of the nation? Not really. Well, except, Donnie, the only thing I'd say about that is all those incredibly highly paid, incredibly sophisticated, incredibly good coaches seem to come around to the idea that English football from the 1980s was best all along.

42:40And that's why they're playing it week in, week out. Yeah, yeah, that is exciting. But the players on that pitch don't, you go to an academy age six, you don't play park football. You don't come in really, I mean, there are players that actually, players who've come up the pyramid that way, who are in the England team. And that's sort of really good and a sign of health. of health because the football league is still a very strong sort of grounding for players but some people do think that having a overseas manager is pointless because what's that saying the whole point of international football is a test of systems how good is my system what can i change what can i copy from other systems and that's its value whereas if you simply bring in this pragmatist who is a master of the ralph rangnick school of and that other guy used to watch the DVDs of Saki until they exploded or whatever he used to do.

43:30Alma Gross. There you go. There you go. You know, if you bring that guy in, you're testing the efficiency of German tactical school of the, you know, early 2000s, which is clearly a good thing for them. But the meaning is sort of blurred now and slightly lost. And there's not much you could copy. How are you going to, so English football has won, has won, they're the ultimate. Norway is now going to copy English football and try to replicate that success. Well, you can't. It's impossible. What are you going to do? Have the world's most, just attract all the talent, destroy every other domestic league in Europe with your wealth and hire Thomas Tuchel.

44:08You can't replicate it. So it would be a triumph for sort of hyper-capitalism, I suppose. So it's good if we win it and it's also good if we don't win it. So either way, we win. And I guess, and you know, the fans of the home nation, other home nations going, look what a ridiculous conversation four English people going would it be so bad to win the World Cup six months before the ball has been kicked this is typical of them isn't it getting the excuses you know yeah you won the World Cup it was shit yeah I mean I have felt that with the finals and I you know the two finals we got to is mainly just because the boys of 66 are so deified because I never saw Alan Ball have a bad game because I've never seen him have a game whereas I have seen you know jed spence occasionally not be good and so i think i don't know if i want these people to be on the same level as them but it's look it'd be a nice problem to have and it's not something we have to worry about for a little while uh that'll do for part two uh part three we'll do all the other international stuff welcome to part three of the guardian football weekly um so that was an odd Saturday night, John, for Scotland, wasn't it?

45:20They lost to Greece, 3-0 down, get it back to 3-2. At one point, if they'd scored, they'd have gone top of the group because Denmark were somehow losing to Belarus. But look, it all still means, you know, they win against Denmark tomorrow and they qualify for the World Cup. So like, where do you have that on the possible heartbreak, possible joy? Who's going to be the Troy Parrott? I'm hearing Rod Stewart, you're in my heart, you're in my soul

45:50well it's important for Stuart because now we've just discovered he now has to play up front for Scotland when they get to the World Cup so Rod was at the boxing on Saturday he's got a busy week ahead you know he I have sat in fact as I said we alluded to before I sat next to Jonathan on one of these nights of Scottish failure and the emptiness of those around us as we it was quite something to behold actually. As an aside, Scottish journalists, you may not know this, all wear suits to games, unlike us scruff bags in down south. Do they? And so there's a selection of besuited men looking sorry for themselves, realising they have to book the holidays in, you know, rather than go to the Euros or World Cup or whatever.

46:40Listen, Steve Clarke is one of those people that, We always have to say, what a good job Steve Clarke's done, by the way. And it's one of those, again, and this is a classic Mick McCarthy thing of, well, if you told me that I was in this position, I would have taken it. And I think that's the position that they're in, that winner takes all or winner takes a qualification for the World Cup. They can go through the playoff route as well, is that correct? If they drop out. Yeah, well, they'll come second, won't they? Yeah, so there could be heartbreak there and even more heartbreak to follow in March.

47:19So a classic Scottish solution. I sort of feel that in international football, everybody is just sort of doomed to follow the same pattern over and over again. Probably more with Scotland, even anybody else. And it really occurred to me, I was sat next to you and Mary, where they lost to Hungary at the Euros. There was a moment in the second half, and I genuinely had to sort of pinch myself to make sure I was actually seeing this. There was a spider kept falling off his desk and he helps the spider up onto the desk like he's like Robert the Bruce. And it's like, this is just a nation doomed to enact their national myths over and over and over again.

47:58And that means that desperate heartache, having grasped at glory will definitely happen. But like Robert the Bruce's spider, they will get there eventually and it'll be all the better for having had to spin that web 15 times was you and wearing a suit uh i don't think he was he was um i understand understand this is not criticism he was getting understandably very sort of um tense because if you remember there was he was it it was this hungarian forward was it varga got a terrible head injury uh clattered into the Scotland keeper. And we didn't look really, really bad. We had no idea how bad it was.

48:42And obviously when you're filing on the whistle, it's kind of, that's something you've got to get right, how serious it was. So that was my main memory, the spider and then his distress on behalf of this Hungarian forward. Yeah. The same Varga who scored that absolutely amazing goal, which means nothing. Oh, great goal. Unbelievable goal, wasn't it? Meanwhile, Wales, they beat Liechtenstein 1-0. So they made pretty hard work of it. they need to beat North Macedonia to have a better chance of you know getting an easier route in the playoffs um but obviously we all hope they uh and North Macedonia are quote no mugs uh so uh and they've had a very good qualifying campaign so it will not be easy and they're missing Jordan James and Ethan Ampadu both suspended so it'll be tricky um well uh I'll tap up Ellis James for a Barry style voice note um Barney Norway at the World Cup it'll be fast I think Harland you can see harland just going this is my time you know big man big man big man saul off stratt larson as well but like harland just feel like he could just decide to do be brilliant this world cup yeah i mean his international goals record is mind-boggling it's i think something like 53 and 45 or something like that um it's changing all the time because he's constantly scoring goals even when they're not playing somehow his gold record is going up.

50:04I guess the issue is they're really front loaded in the talent, not that that's really the worst problem to have. And also we have to talk about the heat, don't we? And I guess playing their style may be difficult or more difficult in the heat, but I think they're definitely, I don't know if they're even dark horses, they're just horses. They're medium-coloured horses, just neutral horses, because they're really good. And Haaland has come on so, so much. It's almost as though being coached by Pep Guardiola every day for years might be a way of improving your all-round game. But he looks sensationally good.

50:46But he's still, we've been able to see his speed more, which he always had, but they don't play in that ridiculous swarm of possession where he's just surrounded by 20 players. And it's great to see that Dortmund-era Haaland back again. He's just this terrifying nightmare Viking Terminator, which I, for one, am all in favour of. I think that you're meant to say at this point, no one will want to play them. But there's quite a few teams you wouldn't want to play, but you probably definitely wouldn't want to play them because he will score. I watched a bit of this game and it struck me that Norway had better players than Italy in this game.

51:25The Norway's players are actually higher class in Italy and I know there's a big... In Italy, there's a... They're going through their moment of national shame of how poor they are at turning out players that England went through, say, 20 years ago. And apart from Esposto that scored the goal, and, you know, Barella and people like that. But you look at the Norway players, they had Nusa, fantastic player in that game. It was brilliant. Great goal, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sander Burch, who plays for Fulham, was smashing up midfield. It was, you know, and I had a place for Brentford. These are Premier League players, and you're thinking, well, this is why Norway are very good now.

52:13and it's taken a while to get them together. But this actually is a team, as Barney says, that you wouldn't want to face. And then Haaland didn't do anything in the game for ages. Then suddenly, in a matter of minutes, just explodes and then can just retreat. You know, I've done my bit now. And a player like that is just something that Italy, the Italians haven't got a striker. They're hoping Esposito can be this guy. I was listening to the commentary and they said, They're even comparing him to Luca Toni. And I thought Luca Toni's a good player, but he's not Erling Arland, is he? He definitely is not.

52:54I saw Luca Toni play in Dubai once when he was sort of out there playing in that league. And I've never seen a man just shed so much liquid. It was just incredible. He was basically just, he was like a one-man sprinkler just running around this thing. it was incredible to watch and yeah I don't yeah I don't if that's really the model for the modern day professional I did like you know Italy needed to win 9-0 didn't they and they scored quite early I think it was DeMarco ran into the net to get the ball to get back yeah that was incredible just in case so I don't admire that optimism Croatia qualified so Luka Modric will probably play in his fifth World Cup quiz time then any other players that have played in five World Cups Mateus Correct Antonio Carbajal Yes, very good, Mexico There are two other Mexicans But I can't remember their names Marquez Marquez, yeah Correct, Marquez Andres Guadado And then Messi and Ronaldo Presumably if they play in the next World Cup And they will become the first to play in their sixth to just show that they were never going to be pulled apart.

54:13Right, so they've done five already and now in their sixth. DR Congo qualified for the World Cup after knocking Nigeria out in a penalty shootout. Wilson, you are sort of our African football expert on this panel. Well, DR Congo have been sort of a coming force for years and they keep on missing out the last. And they've been really, really good in this qualifying campaign. They were 2-0 up at home against Senegal at half-time and ended up losing it 3-2. and that's the only reason why they're in these playoffs. If they'd held on to that, it would have been Senegal in the playoffs. And they've got a really good side.

54:44I mean, Noah Siddiqui is maybe the sort of standout Premier League player there. They miss Wissa, obviously, so they've been a bit short of goals recently. They were a much better side in this game. Nigeria have been terrible. Their players went on strike last week, two days before the semi-final of these playoffs against Gabon over unpaid bonuses. And they got a lot of criticism. People say, oh, yeah, it's a long time to go on strike. but when are you going to go on strike? You know, if you're not being paid and it seems the Nigerian government had released the funds it hadn't been passed on by the Nigerian Football Federation you know, I think at some point the players have to take action this probably was the right time and the truth is they're not very good so they probably weren't going to get through the inter-confederational playoffs next March anyway so I think it's good for football the DRC have got there it went to penalties a classic penalty shootout where Nigeria missed 3 of 6 and DRC missed two of six.

55:40But yeah, there was some kind of contretemps on the bench. Eric Schell, who is a Malian, who is Nigerian manager, and he was a pretty controversial appointment in that Nigeria think they should have either a Nigerian manager or a European. They don't understand why they have a manager from another African nation. And Eric Schell with Mali, I was never quite sure whether he slightly held Mali back they did quite well under him but they were quite boring and Mali previously had never been dull and I think this Nigeria had been desperately dull but he was getting very very worked up about something going on on the bench he said there was some sort of liquid being sprayed about by one of the DRC staff which he described and this is his word voodoo now Maribus which are sort of syncretism between local spiritual beliefs and Islam are very big in Mali.

56:37I was in Mali in 2002. I met Amarabu. He gave me a terrible tip for who's going to win the World Cup, so I wouldn't necessarily trust them. But it is a big part of Malian culture. So whether that's something to do with it, I don't know. And after DRC had converted the chancellor member, former Newcastle player, after he converted the decisive penalty, Shell runs and tries to attack whoever it is on the on the DRC bench and Sebastian de Sable the the French coach of uh of DRC who looks a lot like the actor Mark Bonner he ends up having to sort of hold him back and then yeah Shell came out in his sort of post-match briefing and he was accusing DRC of voodoo so not really sure what was going on but I'm I think it's good that DRC have gone through and uh you know wish them well in the in confederational playoffs next summer.

57:28And I also hope DRC play Nigeria in the Cup of Nations in January. So just finally, that intercontinental thing, so who's in that? Every confederation apart from Europe gets a place in it. CONCACAF get two places. They're divvied up into, there'll be two semifinals. So the two higher-seeded teams get by to finals. There's sort of two competitions go on. There's two semifinals. The winner of the semifinals goes through to the final to play the seeded team and whoever wins each of those two finals gets a place at the World Cup. So New Caledonia are there, Bolivia are there, DRC are there and I think we're still waiting on who the CONCACAF teams would be and who the Asian team will be.

58:10Has this taken the place of the thing where Uruguay would always play Australia and they'd have a fight? Yes. I'll miss that. That was one of the great World Cup moments. You knew the World Cup was coming, didn't you,

58:27sad socceroos again knocked out because fireworks being set off outside their hotel at 3am in Montevideo anyway Paul Watson's on on Thursday so we'll flesh that out a bit then but thank you everybody that'll do for today thank you John thank you Max thank you Barney thanks bye everyone thanks Wilson cheers thank you Football Weekly is produced by Silas Gray our executive producer is Phil Maynard

59:03This is The Guardian.