Turkish delight for Villa and the Premier League relegation battle – Football Weekly podcast

0:00Max Rushden:This is The Guardian.

0:30And then a glorious run from Emi Buendia. It was a procession after that. Also today, Southampton lose their appeal over Spygate. We'll talk through yesterday's developments. Basically any team who's been in a playoff position in the last 200 years trying to work out if they have a case to get in. But it will be Hull versus Middlesbrough on Saturday. Then a Premier League preview. Another great opportunity to panic about Spurs and wonder if Bournemouth can get into the Champions League. We commence World Cup squad. What's he doing there? Why is he not there? And we answer your questions. And that's today's Guardian Football Weekly.

1:01on the panel today barry glendening welcome hi max hello lars hivinson hello max hi archie rint hutt hi max and for part one congratulations dan bardell thank you max thank you very much that's all right so let's start then uh in estambul villa three freyberg nil in emory's fifth europa league title 30 years since villa's last trophy that league cup win over leeds in 96 Dan, the floor is yours. How was it? I mean, obviously, as you know, Max, I was not there. I made the decision to stay at home and watch it with my dad, who would not have been able to travel to Istanbul in his current state. But do I have regrets?

1:39Absolutely. All my mates are there. It looked like it was absolutely incredible last night. But just absolutely elated that we finally ended that trophy drought. Over 30 years without a trophy feels absolutely incredible. I was watching it with my stepson, realising that I was his age, 10, the last time Villa won a trophy last night. But we made it look easy. In the end, there was not hairy moments, but maybe it was a little bit uncomfortable for the first 40 or so minutes. But then suddenly Villa remembered what they did in the midpoint of the season where we just scored worldy after worldy. And the Tillerman strike is just a thing of beauty.

2:16And then it's followed up by arguably an even better goal from Emi Buendia, who I just knew would score because he's popped up with that kind of moment all season and to be honest at half time I thought Freiburg looked a little bit down and out and I did just think oh my god we have done it we have yeah we are going to lift a trophy I was trying to work out Dan the like the best way to win a final like is it nail biting I remember like like Spurs last year you know you won the love you're just waiting you're just desperate or whatever or is it is it this kind of procession where you can kind of really sit back enjoy the second half You're sitting there with your dad, open another can.

2:53They can bring Tyrone Mings, you know, all these people that deserve to be brought on. You know, who are they going to bring on next? You know, Dion Dublin's coming on. There's Steve Staunton. Nigel Spink gets around. You know, it's like it sort of felt easy. And maybe I don't know what the best way to win it is. But like it doesn't change that moment when the full-time whistle goes. I mean, you speak to me like I'm a seasoned trophy winner. I haven't got a clue what the best way is to win a trophy. because in all honesty, the last time in 1996, Villa won a trophy, they won 3-0 and it was relatively comfortable the day that Savo Milosevic scored against Leeds.

3:26But I think it did show Emery's class that he didn't need to bring Tyrone Mings on, but he's the longest serving player. He's been there for so long. He didn't need to bring Douglas Luiz on, who was at Villa for a long time, left and has come back and not really been a part of things in the second half of the season because he's not been good enough to get in the team. so he didn't need to do those things but yeah it's nice to watch a final in the second half especially when you score an early goal in that second half as well and feel comfortable and just watch a football match knowing you're about to lift a trophy and yeah you're gonna do it and you don't really need to worry it was a it was a surreal night for just for just so many reasons yeah and I'm look I'm not here to make you cry but like to stay at home and to watch it with your dad right who isn't in the best of health just what was that like as I said there's a lot of moments in the last 24 hours where I've sat back and thought what what on earth am I am I doing here but just to indulge me for like just a couple of minutes a Villa fan who I have never met don't know messaged me yesterday saying that his um his dad had passed away the afternoon before and they had plans to sit and watch the game together and that I'd done absolutely the right thing he wishes he could watch it with his dad that's been taken away from him at the at the last second.

4:41So I'm very aware that there's many people who watch football. There'll be many people who support Villa, that there's people that they'd have wanted to have watched that final with yesterday because it's a generational moment for Villa fans so long without that trophy. So it was absolutely the right thing to do. And like I said, I was 10 last time, so I don't really remember it. We were there at Wembley and my dad was alive in 1982, so he's seen Villa win the big one but I could tell last night that it meant an awful lot to him I dragged him on my podcast afterwards and he was getting emotional talking about it and talking about Villa it might be another 30 years without a trophy I don't think it will be if Emery stays but it might be a long long time without a trophy so to take in and save that moment with him and the rest of my family it was genuinely really special From up to Joe Aston Villa have scored more goals from outside the penalty area than any other Premier League side in all competitions this season since the Club World Cup.

5:42That's 20. Chris writes, Villa's three goals had an XG of 0.34. Is this sustainable? Feels very much, Lars, a question for you. As you've been saying, this isn't sustainable, but maybe it is sustainable.

5:54Lars Sivertsen:No, but there are two sides to that. Villa have regressed in the second half of the season in the league, as we've seen. But on the flip side of it, they have people who strike the ball really well in the team like there are people who who score low xg chances more often than others and if you go through like the sort of villa attacking positions like i looked this up when dia in his last season for norwich before leaving and going to villa i mean he's had a really interesting villa career that's actually worth talking about maybe dan but i mean he had five goals from outside the box for norwich in champions like championship the last time the last season he played for norwich champions league would be good i don't remember that that norwich uh season after Efina Koku got them in the OEFA Cup.

6:34Lars Sivertsen:But the point is, he's a really good ball striker who has that in his locker. Thielemans is a really clean ball striker. Even when he hits long-range passes, he hits the ball really sweetly. We shouldn't be shocked that he's belted one in. Rodgers obviously can hit one. Emery, I don't know if this was a conscious strategy for him and, of course, Monchi when he was the sporting director, but Villa have just accumulated quite a few players who are quite good at shooting. so maybe they're not going to score quite as many from range next season and the season after that but we should probably not be shocked that they're scoring more like bangers than a few other teams I could mention I think that's fair but also I want to send that over to Dan like I'm really fascinated by Buendia having this season and I say this because I've always been a Buendia truther I believe he is a good player actually and it just hasn't always worked out the way I thought it would at Villa and he probably wouldn't even have been there if PSR wasn't a thing last summer and they had more maneuverability in the market but he's had a really good season for you guys I mean even the last day of the transfer window in back in August or September whenever whenever it closed if a team had come in for him Villa would have sold him he was he was out the picture he was he got an awful injury a few years ago when he'd had a really good pre-season and missed the entirety of that season that Villa qualified for the Champions League so that would have been in 23, 24.

7:57Came back in 24, 25, first half of the season on the bench, barely ever came on him. He just didn't fancy him. And he went on loan to Leverkusen in the second half of the season and didn't get much of a look in there. But he came back in the summer, determined that he was going to make an impact at Villa. And, you know, many people would have laughed at that, probably me included. I thought his time had been and gone at Villa. I wasn't sure he'd be able to make any kind of impact. But he's forced his way into the team. he did everything he could in his early substitute appearances and look, in the second half of the season he's regressed a little bit like Villa Villa have had a patchy 20-26 but he's always just been capable all season of just popping up with a moment of magic and I think he's in double figures for goals which is absolutely outstanding from him I doubt he's ever done that particularly at the highest level before so he deserves so much praise for his resilience and his character and his battling the way he's pulled himself into Emery's thinking Kiannan, you know, now that guy is going to be a Champions League player next season, man of the match in the Europa League final.

9:00Although I'm critical of him sometimes, you can't argue with what he's done this season. I mean, you are a Uri Tillemans truther, Baz. You've talked about how good he is. There's something about a volley, you know, of just like the purity of connecting with a ball that, I don't know, is something... Our WhatsApp group instantly just sort of went ping because it was like, I don't know what it is about hitting a volley that's different to other goals but he it was so good yeah a really

9:28Max Rushden:sweet strike and we know he has that in his locker needless to say it came from a set piece so the camera automatically cuts to austin mcphee on the touchline who sort of looks like bass technician from an elderly heavy metal band. But there's so much that has to go right for those set pieces to work. Just from the initial straightforward pass from Luke Cadeen to Morgan Rodgers, then the cross has to be perfect. Other Villa players have to drag the Freiburg players out of position. Legally drag them, I hasten to add, not physically drag them. And then that volley while moving backwards, it's really hard.

10:21Max Rushden:It's difficult to pull that off and to aim it with such precision through the gap that it opened. It's just people talk about these set pieces as if it's, right, this is what we're going to do, and then the players just go and do it. One presumes they have to practice it over and over and over and over again on the training ground, and more often than not, it probably doesn't work. So to pull it off in a final, and for that to be your opening goal after a... Look, Freiburg didn't offer much last night, but the first half hour was very cagey. So to break the deadlock with a goal like that is just terrific.

11:02Lars Sivertsen:It'd be really funny if the planning meeting for this set piece was McPhee going like, you run over here, you run there to take the marker with you there, you pass the ball to him you just pass the cross it into the box and then you yuri you're just going to hit an incredibly clean volley whilst moving to the side and then everything will work out it's really good this is a great plan maybe this is how they drew it up but i always i feel like there would be a bit of a hush and a silence falling over the room and yuri tilman's going yeah okay i mean i guess this is an easy scheme for us to pull out i'm just going to hit that volley 10 out of 10 times it took me until about the fifth replay to see this but there's another detail as well which is the the center backs when the corner's being taken they're pointing yeah take it short take it short so there's some good acting involved in this as well and there's so many details to this and it did feel like an nfl style play that the aston villa were running there and i have to say having having been in the stadium last night it's so nice to be at a final where both sets of fans are not used to winning things yeah the energy from the villa fans last night was exceptional we're talking even an hour before kickoff i'm i'm sure that the players could hear them when they were coming uh out out the tunnel already i mean of course coming out the tunnel no when they're in the dressing room is what i meant even even knowing what freiburg could be capable of on their best day i i always thought if villa are gonna have to have one of their worst days for something to happen here and look i know that this pod has given a lot of love to john mcginn in the past but look given that this man puts the ass into Aston Villa we need to give him even more I think because I've not had the privilege and the pleasure of watching him live as often as others but just the control that he gives them and just the unique style like of the way that I mean look that early yellow card that he wins after five minutes in a final these are important little things because it gives you the run on on a fullback where where you're going to need that when if things getting tough so yeah like i i wonder dan what his statue will look like i think it needs to be at least a cast of his behind i mean i like my wife's behind very much but he's very close between hers and john mcginns i believe you're Dragging this podcast into the gutter like that.

13:46Sorry. There's been a lot of, I don't know if it's a meme or whatever, going around the time that John McGinn dressed up in a turkey suit at Buddymore Heath around Christmas, and people have been using ChatGPT to make that image of him in the turkey suit as a statue outside Villa Park. I think that would be the one that would get the vote from the Villa fans. But he's an incredible man. What he's been through, through the club as well, coming from the championship, playing in every level of Europe, becoming captain and scoring double figures for him this season as well, which he's never done before.

14:22Genuinely, he is a club legend. And for me now, Paul McGrath, God aside, I think you've got to be saying that he's Villa's best Premier League era player in terms of longevity and everything he's done for this football club. Because when he plays well, Villa play well. And when he's not there, my God, you notice.

14:41Lars Sivertsen:He's also such an unusual type of player. Like he reminds you of like a mid-90s box-to-box midfielder of the kind that just doesn't exist anymore. And Emery has found like the perfect place to way to use that because the way football is now, you probably don't want that right in the middle of the park because he'll leave a lot of gaps because he needs the freedom to move around and find good positions and get forward. So you use him as this sort of strange inside winger type of thing that Emery does with the freedom to, I think, go pretty much wherever he wants. and it seems to like be a really smart way of figuring out how to use this very unique set of characteristics that he has in a way that really works for the team Owen says Villa have plenty of good players there are tons of good managers in the Premier League but Emery is by a distance the most value-added manager in the league where would Villa be without him I'm never really that fussed Barry about who wins manager of the season but like the job he's done is extraordinary especially because that you know did they have a bad start or a bad middle there was a time when it was all a bit flat we didn't have high

15:40Max Rushden:expectations of them they had a very bad start i think they only took three points from the first 15 available if that and then they went on this remarkable winning run in sort of the middle of the season uh winning matches in the premier league and the europa league i think they only lost one out of about 18 or 19 was it Dan I think I don't have to figure out I think they lost against Liverpool and won all the rest but so that was a remarkable run I mean he also had to cope with midfield injury crisis during the season he's a bit financially hamstrung PSR wise so wasn't able to do much if any business in January.

16:29Max Rushden:So what he's done is remarkable, particularly when you think of where Villa were when he took over from Steven Gerrard. I think it's remarkable. I think Dan said this last time he was on. I mean, it's not that big a deal, but I think he's a very conspicuous absentee from the Premier League manager of the season shortlist. but I think they were probably hedging their bets putting Pep and Mikel Arteta in because they had to get the shortlist out before they knew who won the title so maybe if they were doing it again he'd be in and Pep would be out I'm sure he doesn't care about that he's a brilliant manager what's interesting now is what do Villa do next season?

17:15Max Rushden:is there potential for them to have a tilt at the title? Liverpool are in disarray Chelsea are in disarray Manchester United are a bit of an unknown quantity Is it conceivable they could give Arsenal a run for their money next season? It would sure make for a great story given Arsenal fans don't hold Emery in particularly high regard I think some of them are outrightly hostile towards them Dan, what kind of financial position are they in? Are they still on a very tight reign PSR-wise? It looks like someone will still have to be sold in the summer, but the Champions League qualification gives more flexibility than they would have had.

17:57And Villa are quite an old squad. I think the average age is the highest in the Premier League. This group of players, many of them have been there since around 2020, 2021. There's not been much churn when Villa have spent money. They haven't spent it brilliantly. At times, there will need to be a little bit of a refresh in the summer. But in all honesty, now those players, that group have won a trophy. that kind of want to keep them together and see if they've got a taste for it because quite often the first one is the hardest one to win, isn't it? And, you know, they've done that now. So you wouldn't want to lose too many from that group now they've got that experience of winning the trophy.

18:30Could I just give some quick love to Freiburg? Please. Because, look, they have done so well to get this far and to play against Aston Villa was, look, for them a step too far. and they did need to make it to half-time, at most 1-0. And as Dan says, you could feel the energy be sucked out of them. But look, in context, since Unai Emery arrived at Aston Villa, they've spent more money on transfers than Freiburg have spent in their history. In fact, nearly double the amount, which is, you know, there's still a lot of respect to be had for what Villa have done because if you look at Villa's side, they've not bought stars.

19:17They've bought players who they can mould and who can grow. But Freiburg have done this all off their own back. And if you look at the players that they had there in their starting line-up last night, if you combine the amount of years they've been at the club for, including in their academy, you reach 90 years. it's incredible how how much patience and continuity has how far that has taken them in terms of going to a European final and you saw it by the fact that all of the fans stayed even when Villa were lifting the cup it was it was insane to for the fact that they wanted to say thanks to their players twice over and you look they were they are they've qualified for the conference league again which feels like a more winnable competition as long as chelsea aren't in it for them next season the problem is villa was so strong even that that matty cash challenge in the first half where you think you might have seen them given before there was no point having Having seen Freiburg in a DFB Cup final four years ago, where they go 1-0 up and they go a man up because RB Leipzig get a player sent off.

20:31And then they crumbled completely because they just didn't have, yeah, they didn't have it mentally or they didn't have the physicality to take it over the line. It's very difficult to begrudge Villa's victory.

20:42Lars Sivertsen:it's maybe noticeable or interesting that in the two seasons we've had of the Europa League since they changed the format so that you don't get teams coming in from the Champions League from the group stages the the teams Mourinho very humorously refer to as the failed sharks from the Champions League which is a great phrase we no longer get the frail sharks in those two seasons we've had an all-English final and now we had an English winner with two English teams knocking each other knocking that one English team knocked out in the semis in an all English affair. I do wonder if this is a trend we'll be seeing and this is not taking anything away from Villa whatsoever.

21:21Lars Sivertsen:But without those also rounds for the Champions League, I don't know if there are any, you're not going to have a lot of teams in the Europa League that can, you know, compete with the sort of financial firepower that the mid-ranking teams from England bring. at the end of the day Villa's wage bill is about three times what Freiburg's is so and this will be the story very often and again not taking anything away from them but I do think that's an unintended consequence of changing the format in that way yeah it's a really interesting point because nobody liked the failed Sharks getting an opportunity to still be Sharks but at the same point you you know the conference league is the same right you could see that domination and you know obviously we don't know what's going to happen in the Champions League final but I wonder of how you wafer will feel about that.

22:04Sid Lowe with an interesting tweet saying in 24 hours, Mikel Arteta took Arsenal to its first league in 22 years. Andoni Arreola took Bournemouth to Europe for the first time ever. Unai Emery took Aston Villa to a first European trophy in 44 years. First of any kind in 30 years. All born within 30 miles of each other in Gipuzcoa, a municipality in Spain. So what a footballing managerial hotbed that is. Were they born with tactics boards? You know, given to them?

22:33Lars Sivertsen:Honestly, if I lived there, I would set up like a guest house and make it like a place of pilgrimage for like tactics hipsters and like football bloggers and aspiring coaches. A residential Jonathan Wilson holiday, Wilson Hotel. Jonathan Wilson, all the Wilson books, a website that only gets that German tactics website that I forget the name of. The only site you can access on the laptop will be like the tactics blogs and you can have like Wilson posters everywhere. Be very good. I think that's a business idea. I think that -

23:05Max Rushden:It's like the polar opposite of one of those 12, 18, 30 holidays.

23:15Max Rushden:Come on holidays and have as little fun as is imaginable. Yeah. After breakfast between 10 and 12, we'll be doing 3, 4, 1, 2. we'll stop for lunch and then we'll move on to wingbacks then we'll go and visit Michel Arteta's childhood home and after dinner a long talk on inverted fullbacks how fun

23:44Lars Sivertsen:have you seen how many views those tactical breakdown videos get on YouTube and stuff people would love this I haven't Dan any other strong thoughts before we let you go Just that I'm absolutely elated. Well done to that group of players. Well done to Unai Emery and well done to the Villa fans as well who looked like they behaved impeccably the whole time they were out there. So yeah, absolutely brilliant.

24:08Max Rushden:Dan, does a small or indeed even large part of you seethingly resent your father? Well, you know what? In 1994 when Villa won the Coca-Cola Cup, he didn't take me because he decided it was my mum's birthday. so I wasn't allowed to go because it was my mum's birthday but he went so I think I resent him more for that rather than rather than yes well at least at least he enjoyed it when I decided not to go to Madrid I was in Madrid for the Tottenham Liverpool Champions League final but flew back to watch it with him he really wasn't that arsed but I'd written a column about it so he had to come otherwise Tony oh just quickly your mates do a Villa podcast and Prince William like I don't imagine there's lots of royalists listening to us, but even still, your mates, like, he called them over, he was like, all right, Baz, or Darren, or whatever.

25:00He's actually called Dan. There is he, Dan, there we go, and they were like, and he was like, he's a Villa podcast listener. That's interesting. Could have been me, could have been me, Max, if I was there, he might be calling me over, who knows. Yeah, oh well, there we are. And Tony says, overjoyed for Villa, I do think that this has gone on too long now, freed from desire, should be considered a war crime, and sealed in a lined box, for eternity. I don't know, me back to Gumbet 1997 after my A-levels. It was a real banger of those clubs. And I just don't know. I think it works with the football crowd, but I'm happy to, you know, I wouldn't listen to it of a morning.

25:38Anyway, well done, Dan. You can go away now. Thanks, pal. Thank you. Thanks, guys. Dan Bardell there. And that'll do for part one. Part two, we'll begin with Spygate.

25:54Well, it's part two of the Guardian Football Weekly. So Southampton failed in their appeal to overturn their expulsion from the playoff final. They issued a statement before the ruling explaining why they were appealing. And then afterwards, they called the decision extremely disappointing, maintaining that the sanction is disproportionate. We know how painful this moment will be for our supporters, players, staff, commercial partners and the wider community who have given so much backing to the team throughout the season. We apologize once again to everyone impacted by this. The club will reflect carefully on the events that have led to this point.

26:22Learn from them. and take what you learn, learn, don't put a man behind a tree and take the necessary steps to move forward responsibly. While tonight is a painful moment, this football club will respond with humility, accountability and determination to put things right. The EFL arbitration panel said, we've dismissed Southampton football club's appeal against the Independent Disciplinary Commission sanction following the admittance of multiple breaches of EFL regulations. Archie, I mean, we've talked about this already, of course, but it's, Archie, you had some thoughts. It feels too much. I listened to yesterday's pod and I get Barry's point about, look, they broke a rule.

26:59And look, actions need to have consequences. But it feels like the consequences here massively outweigh the actions. And maybe it's because I've been immersed in a culture in Germany where there's open training for a lot of the time, but also there's closed training which people try and watch and rb leipzig's oliverna said that look they've had people hiding in bushes trying to watch things this season uh there's a quote i remember from edin terzic uh a few years ago where he said when when jürgen klopp was in in charge at dortmund and terzic was working under him as a scout that he used to dress up as a security guard and watch the final training session inside the stadium.

27:48And would we call Jurgen Klopp a cheat? I don't know if we would use that word. Do we now go back through history and say Marcelo Bielsa is a cheat because of this? It feels like there's a uniquely English moral outrage that we have talked ourselves into here. of, there's something that the word cheating does that inspires a specific kind of anger. And there is a part of me where I think when it comes to English football's moral compass, can we take the right things seriously? I don't know. I get that, look, there was a rule, but it does feel like a significant jump from 200 ,000 pounds, was it, for Marcelo Gielsa, to this.