Inside The Journey Of America’s Oldest Black-Owned Construction Firm

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1:21As part of our Forbes BLK 25 Businesses to Watch list, presented by our friends at BMO Bank, we'll be diving into Cheryl's journey and talking business of construction. You're in the Enterprise Zone from our Forbes studio.

1:40Hello, everyone. This is Jabari Young, senior writer at Forbes. You're in the Enterprise Zone from our Forbes studio here in Jersey City. And I have a special guest. Her name is Cheryl McKissick Daniel, and she is the chair of the board as well as owner of McKissick. And that is a legendary architecture and construction firm incorporated since 1905. Cheryl, thank you so much for the time. It is a pleasure to have you in this presence. Thank you. I mean, this this is like a privilege to me. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited. Yes. Listen, I'm excited, too. And congratulations.

2:12You know, listen, you are an honoree of our Forbes BLK25 Business to Watch. And this list was something special to me because it incorporated those legacy businesses, those businesses that a lot of people may not realize are still around, still profitable, still doing work, you know, especially through the lens of black America. And here is your family who, again, they built this country, one can say, you know, still having a prominent mark, you know, in our society in the lens of construction and architecture. So I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, you're very welcome. Thank you. How's the family before I even, you know, start talking business knowledge?

2:46good stuff? You know, family's good. Love it. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. You know, all, all is well. Nice. I love it. I love it. Well, listen, I know you're in a stock market, right? You, you, you do a little investing here and there, right? Yeah, but I don't do it. You don't do it at all. What type of investor would you say is Cheryl McKissick name? What type of aggressive, you know, conservative? Uh, at my age now, I'm a little more conservative. Um, and you know, I do work with JPMorgan Chase, one of my clients. And so they handle my portfolio. However, I will take calculated risk. Yes. As you know, we are investors and owners of the Metropolitan Park, the Heart Rock Metropolitan Park Casino that is coming to Citi Field.

3:33Yeah. And so that's a significant investment for us. Yeah. Calculated risk. It's a calculated risk. I love that. Calculated risk. Yeah. Yeah. So, again, not too aggressive, right? But if you have to say, okay, if I had to pick one stock that I definitely would go all in on, what stock would you pick? JP Morgan? JP Morgan, you can count on them. JP Morgan. You got to go with the big banks. You know, you got to go with the big banks. Here we are in 2026, right? What would you say is your soundtrack to your year, right? What have you been listening to music-wise that has been keeping you motivated and, you know, just kind of feeling good about where your business is and where you are in life?

4:14What's your soundtrack? My soundtrack? Oh, my goodness. You know, I'm old school. And so when I'm really relaxing and getting into my music and, you know, thinking about my future, I go back to my old artist. Yeah. You know, and we talked about one today, and that's Sade. That's Luther Vandross. That's the Isley Brothers. that's al jerome yeah i go back to earl clue i mean those type of artists is is what i listen to i love it um and i do like some of the newer artists i have to say but that's for working out yeah yeah that's for working out that's for the turn up right that's for the turn up you listen you hit that that that spirit in me because i'm from philly and so when you say old school i start thinking of you know kenny gamble absolutely right i'm like man the music and all the stuff that they created for the Ozzy Brothers, for some of the Tutty Pendergrass, the OJs, all of them, right?

5:13The real music. 100%. And so that's my radio station that's always on WDAS a lot. Oh, I love that. It's either NPR or WDAS. I love that. I love that. And you have your Philly roots, and so I know you would appreciate that. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. You walk into a class, Cheryl, and it's a group of third graders, and they say, well, what do you do, Ms. Cheryl? What do you tell these group of third graders about what you do for a living? Well, you know, I normally tell them to close their eyes and think about a big city. Yeah. New York, Philadelphia, Boston, L.A. And think about the skyline.

5:51And then I ask them, who do you think built it? And most of the time people don't think about who built a structure that they're in every single day. If you travel by train, you go through Grand Central Station. We talked about Amtrak and 30th Street Station. Well, who built that? You're in a school. You go to a library. You go to a hospital. You cross a bridge. Who built that? And most people don't even think about who built the very structures that they are in every day. And it's significant because the structures you're in, they actually they're an environment and, you know, they give you a feeling whether you notice it or not.

6:37So it's important to know who designed them. And then I tell them we built them. At that point, are they like mesmerized and say, did you build this building? Did you build that building? Well, and then when I tell them, a lot of times people just don't even realize that black people had something to do with building a lot of these structures. And so that gives them a sense of pride. Yeah. And I think, you know, bringing awareness to the built environment is something that we try to do, especially in my book, The Black Family Who Built America. And like you said, that is a very big title. It is.

7:16And, you know, of course, the McKissicks did not build all the buildings in America, but black people had a hand in building a significant amount of those structures, especially in the early days. Yes. Yeah. And that needs to be acknowledged. And that truth is not out there the way it should be. Yeah. Perfect segue. Right. Because, again, we'd love to have an update on McKissick. Right. Again, this is a company that's been around since 1905, based in New York, right, over 100 employees, around 100 million revenue mark. And not to be confused with your twin sister who has her own firm, McKissick McKissick.

7:53This is a different firm. But take me inside of the business in 2026. How are you guys doing? I mean, I know you've transitioned out of the CEO role. You have a new CEO that took over this year. But how's everything going? The business is doing extremely well. You know, I feel like we have transitioned from the MWBE. And even though I know that is important, and I think we need to make sure that those programs stay in place. Minority Women in Business. Minority Women in Business. Enterprises. Enterprises, that that program stays in place. And, you know, I had several calls this morning just to work with other people to make sure that happens in the state of New York, because it is definitely helps small businesses get off the ground.

8:47But then there comes a period of time where, you know, you go through this entrepreneurial stage that you have to now start thinking about the sustainable stage. You know, how does a business operate without the one leader or founder or, you know, what would I say, caretaker of the business, steward of the business? Now, how do you make that a management team? Yeah. And so that's what we have been working on at McKissick probably for about seven years. You know, it was so funny. I was asked to be on a panel with BET to talk about succession planning. And I'm like, oh, my God, I haven't done my own succession planning.

9:35This is many years ago. And I'm like, let me just become a quick study on succession. And so, you know, I got this, went online, got this write-up, a couple hundred pages from Deloitte, and I went through the whole thing. And I'm like, oh, my God, I'm in trouble. like I would tell everyone who's starting a business today that they need to think about the succession now early you is never early enough and the whole notion that you don't want to think about it is ridiculous because succession's coming whether you plan it or not yeah there's going to be a transition at some point so you may as well plan it uh and so that got me into the mold of what do we need to do at McKissick to create a long-term plan.

10:25And at the time, you know, I didn't have any McKissick successors that I thought were going to come into the business because my children were much younger. And so now we're at that point where the succession plan and involved bringing in a whole new management team. So I thought I was going to bring that team in from the outside, and I tried that twice, and I failed twice, because I am a steward of a historically and culturally significant company. And whoever comes in to run it has to appreciate that history, that sacrifice, and what our forefathers have been through. And so eventually, after failing twice, I realized, let me look internal to the people who have been here 15 to 20 years.

11:26And understand the business and the culture. Right. And those are the people who we promoted. But before we did that, I mean, we did 360 interviews or reviews of those individuals. And we began to coach them in the areas where, you know, they needed to shore up a little bit. And then they were ready. I mean, a natural president emerged, Albert Odija, who happens to be from Ghana, which is where the McKissicks are from. Totally not planned. But I believe that was God's plan. Divine intervention. Divine intervention. And then and he had been with us for 20 years. Yeah. And our COO has been with us 10 years.

12:14Our CDO, Chief Development Officer, has been with us 20 years. And our Chief Financial Officer, he's the youngest, who has been with us two years. And, you know, it was a complete new C-suite that we put in place in January of this year. But it happened at a time just when we kind of catapulted to the next level with respect to our size and the type of projects that we're doing. It all just culminated at the right time it came together. Yeah. So the business is thriving. You know, they didn't walk into a business that was struggling. They walked into a business that was thriving. And now their goal is to figure out how to grow it even more.

13:03Take it to the next level. To the next level. Because for those who may not know, your family history runs deep. You know, again, you tell the story better than most, right? I mean, your grandfather, Moses I, came over as a slave, right, in North Carolina, where he adopted the last name McKissick, which is Irish. because his slave master was Irish, but, you know, North Carolina and then Moses II, who moved from North Carolina to Tennessee. And they also were the two first black licensed architecture architect in the country. Right. And then, you know, you go on and your father takes over the business after his dad dies.

13:41Moses III dies. Right. And he takes over business back in 1968, if I'm not mistaken. And your mom takes it from him because he had a health scare with a stroke and she took it over in the 1980s. And then she brought you in forcefully. And I definitely get to that later on. But, you know, again, being incorporated since 1905 and still being around in 2026 to live to tell about it. Right. That that's a very rich history. Do you ever sit back and think like, man, I have a business that I'm sitting on for over 100 years old legacy, more than 100 years? Right. I mean, the statistics aren't really in our favor because most businesses don't last to the second generation.

14:27Let alone fifth. Right. And I think that's like 40 percent. Yeah. And the third generation is 18 percent. And the fourth generation is like 2 percent. And that's white business, not black business. And here we are in fifth generation, you know. And so, you know, definitely there is a weight and a pride that comes with having a fifth generation, you know, 100 plus year old business in America. Yeah. And, you know, I'm I'm keenly aware that my ancestors built in a time that was extremely difficult. I mean, you know, there was not only racism, there was right after slavery and emancipation, there was this true hatred for black people and black people were killed for being upwardly mobile.

15:20And so, you know, I understand that history. I understand the sacrifices that I stand on top of. And, you know, I understand that being a McKissick back in those days running a business was was not easy. Yeah. But at the same time, there is a pride and the pride is, you know, we have outlast all the negativity that has come our way. You know, I like to say that each McKissick faced a different America. And so each had their own challenge. You know, if it was Moses McKissick, the first who faced slavery, Moses McKissick, the second emancipation and the starting of the Ku Klux Klan in the very town where he was trying to build his business.

16:11And then Moses and Calvin McKissick, who were got their license, the first black licensed architects in America, they had to face racism to even stay in business. and my father was in the civil rights my mother was when women couldn't borrow money from a bank and then me myself it's ai generation is global you know uh economy it's so many changes that are taking place and then on top of that the threat to dei programs in america so we've all had to face different Americas over the years and we've been able to overcome it. So there's a sense of pride of being able to overcome all of that. And then of course if you add on we built America then you begin to feel as though you belong.

17:08When you're sitting in a boardroom doing a billion dollar deal you feel like you belong because you're like well I've been in business longer than most of the people in this room that I'm talking to, you know, that I want to collaborate with. And so it's both the weight and the pride. So try and build something worthy of both. Yeah. Well, speaking of pride, right, some of the things that you're most proud of. I mean, I look back at the projects that you guys were involved in. You know, you're talking about Atlantic Yards, right? Right outside the Barclays Center. Sure. I'm glad y 'all I didn't build the Barclays Center because I hate that building.

17:45I mean, I do not like the Barclays Center. I think it is a horrible arena, but I love the fact of where it's located. And you guys helped move that rail yard that was temporary there, move the train tracks, move it to a temporary station. I actually thought that was the hardest part of the project, right? Because there are arenas that I know, one of which is in San Antonio, where they can't expand because they're in the middle of four rail lines. Right. And so there's no way to go. Right. You can't pick up four lines from each direction. And so I really understood and really had an appreciation for the challenge of that job.

18:17And just recalling that, and I'll do that a little bit, the work that it took, you had to read 150 pages on that project. You had no experience in doing rail, and now you guys have very, very expertise in it. But that project right there, of course, you said was one of the ones that helped put you on the map. The Mega Evers building that's on in Brooklyn in college. But, you know, another one that you said you're most proud of is the new J.P. Morgan headquarters. Yes. And I thought about it. I said, wait a minute. She's proud of that, but she had to move that rail line. But then when I sat back and thought about why, I'm thinking, I get it.

18:54Her grandfather, great, great, great, great grandfather, right? I might be missing one or two. He came over as a slave. And here it is. His family's name is building a trading floor at the new J.P. Morgan headquarters. Is it fair to say that that is the most, the proudest project that you, the family, McKissick has been a part of to date? I'm extremely proud of that project because of the full circle moment that it represents. The fact that black people, we didn't just use our labor to build this country. We were the actual backing to the capital market that built this country because, you know, we were valued, priced and mortgaged to back early construction.

19:50Way, way back in the early days. And then those loans were bundled and then sold on Wall Street. So when you look at this history here, having anything to do with a bank that's on Wall Street is a full circle moment. And this is true history, OK, that needs to get out there. People need to understand that there is a stolen economic value to what black people have done in America. So then to be able to build trading floors where the opening day, Jamie Diamond said they trade two trillion dollars a day, which shocked me. I had no idea that was how much they trade in one day. You know, that's that to me was a full circle moment.

20:48Do you guys still face any type of discrimination? I remember previous interviews, you still said that, you know, people, they look at you guys still as sub consultants and not part of projects and being the lead in projects. They almost look down still. Is that something that you experienced today? Or does a project like doing the trading floors at JPMorgan headquarters continue to allow others outside of your organization says, no, they're the real deal? Or do you still face that? you know we face it yeah yes we do face discrimination sometimes it's covert sometimes it's overt um sometimes you know it's someone with a blind spot that doesn't even realize that they think a contractor that is white is better than one that's that's black or hispanic or female-owned.

21:44And they don't even realize what they're saying. You know, I've had a client say, okay, we need to talk to our legislators to make sure we can get money out of Washington for these projects that we have, okay? And they look at my partner, not to me, to help do that because they don't think I have the relationship. And I'm thinking to myself, We've only been here since 1905. I can call the congressman too. Yeah, 100%. I can call the governor too. I can call, you know, the city council person too. But these are little nuances that people don't even realize that they're doing. Yeah. So we face it that way, but then we face it head on.

22:34You know, we don't want anybody that's an MWBE on this project. We just don't want it. Now, we'll act like we do and we'll check all the boxes that we went out to all these, you know, MWBE firms, but with no intention to ever hire one. So we deal with that every day. We deal with individuals who might work for a organization that does have MWBEs or a priority to work with diverse firms, but they don't. and they and they control what happens they control the narrative so they can they we've been in situations where they just make up stuff to get rid of us yeah and what i have learned over the years is if somebody does not want to do business with me for whatever reason it's fine then i don't want to do business with them either because it never ends well yeah when you force a situation when you protest the situation when you get political and you force someone to work with you it never works out anyway yeah and so i dust my sandals off yeah and i keep on moving yeah well one project that you know again you mentioned off top that you know you're proud of as well and um i hope you face no resistance getting into this particular project is the uh you know the metropolitan park right 8.1 billion sports entertainment district you know McKissick is part owner of that particular project any update on where that is and when can people expect that to be open and so I don't know if you've heard me talk about this before but you know what really changes opportunities for companies like mine and that is when power gets behind the DEI programs when power aligns and this is a classic example of that because DEI programs are great they deal with procurement.

24:51They set up opportunities for capital and things like that. But what really moves the needle is ownership. And, you know, we saw that with JFK Terminal 1, with Jim Reynolds and Magic Johnson becoming owners, 30 % owners, and the investors in that$6 billion redevelopment of JFK Terminal 1. Because at that point, it changes who gets paid, when they get paid, who comes on board, the whole supply chain. And the atmosphere is different. It's not like when are these people going to fail. It's more of how are we going to help these people succeed? So ownership, to me, is the real key. And a metropolitan park for Steve Cohen and Hard Rock to say, yes, we want MWBE ownership on this project, not just someone working on the actual construction.

26:03We want ownership is a significant thing. And it is a game changer and will be a game changer for the McKissick legacy in the future. We have awarded the construction for the two garages and the entire casino in the last several months. And we expect that the casino will be open in five and a half years. OK. That is the plan. Yeah, that's going to go faster. Sure. It's going to go extremely fast. Yeah, that's going to go real fast. Right before you know it, you'll be out there at the grand opening. Yes. And that is an eight and a half billion dollar investment. Yeah. But the reward is going to be great.

26:48Yeah. Because it's New York. Yeah. And it's a casino. And it's a casino. With sports betting. With sports betting. Yes. That should be real big. That should be real big. When you hear today the phrase black owned business, like what comes to mind for you here? We are getting 2026 right before midterms as we talk. And the ideology of the country has shifted over the last two years, thanks to a new administration in Washington. So today, when you hear the phrase black owned business, what comes to mind for you? For me, I run to it and I feel like I have to support it. I was in the vineyard this summer AJ Callaway opened the Inkwell Beach Club and you know when I saw that on Instagram I'm like I gotta go there I went there probably the second night I got to the vineyard and I said AJ I'm coming here every night and supporting your establishment I don't care if it's one drink I don't care if it's a bottle of Dom Perignon I don't care if it's dinner I am coming every night that I can.

27:54And that's the first thought that comes in my mind, because I know how hard it is. I know how hard it is to run a black business in America and. Us, our own people, we need to support our businesses. I was at the Invest Fest and got a chance to meet with Steve Harvey and he was on stage talking about my book. And he says, black people have the power to make each other great. But it's will we do it? And we have to do it more so now than ever before. We need to come together and support each other. So when I hear black business, I'm excited and I'm happy to be a part of it, invest in it and support it.

28:46Yeah. I was talking to Warren Thompson and, you know, he says hello down at Thompson Hospitality. And we were talking about this very thing about DEI and even the problems that he might face in the hospitality space. But he says, you know, he shifted and made sure he emphasized his value proposition to his clients as well as his partners to make sure that they understood that it's not just about race, but we're doing the job and we can do it better than our competitors. Right. Have you had to make any shifts to your value proposition or do people trust that you'll deliver because your history says that?

29:23You know, that's what I'm saying. I think we're reaching the point where our. Our services that we've provided speak for themselves, that, you know, the results matter. We've delivered with a high quality. We have great staff. And I think that message is out there. The other thing that I see happening is the people who play in our space, in the construction space. the larger firms are so large, they don't even want some of these jobs that we want that are perfect for our model is no longer good for their model. So, you know, there's a shortage of good firms right at that midsize level. And so that that bodes well for us as well.

30:16Yeah. Well, update on the business as a whole, right? What are you seeing as far as how America is being built in 2026, a lot happening, tariffs on materials and things. I'm sure that's impacting costing in your business. But when I go to certain places, I see more cranes than others, right? In Texas, it's cranes everywhere. They're building like crazy down in Texas, right? But where I'm at in New Jersey or even somewhat in Philly, I don't see as many cranes, right? But when you, you're around this country a lot, Cheryl, what are you seeing from the construction slash architecture business? Are things picking up?

30:50Are they slowing down? Where are you at? I see the cost just skyrocketing. You know, in New York, I remember$100 million projects were big projects. Now, if it's not a B to it, no one gets excited anymore. Wow. You know, it needs to be a mega project for people to really get excited about. And we have multiple projects. The MTA, where we've overseen their capital program for 18 years, you know, their capital program right now is 70 something, 75 billion, maybe 80. When we first started, it was like 28. So the numbers just keep growing. You know, the Gateway Project is 30 billion. when that project was stopped 20 years ago it was 10 billion so the numbers just keep getting higher and higher as far as the location of where construction is going I do see a lot more in the south New York of course is the biggest market 80 billion a year Florida so the second biggest market and then california but then when you begin to talk about texas tennessee nashville is my hometown i go there and you know 20 cranes in the sky they're gonna host the super bowl in 2030 all of that just shows that people are migrating to these areas yeah is it because of the red tape isn't there down you know down south as much i mean you have that seems to be argument when you hear about construction building homes is more than liberty you know they don't quality of life yeah they don't have as much red tape a lot of regulations allowing builders and contracts to come in and get to work is that and developers and developers as well yeah it's hard to develop you know in new york so a lot of developers choose atlanta texas nashville even Birmingham.

33:00I'm seeing a lot of development in the South and it has to do with quality of life. But New York to me will always continue because it's just so unique. And this is where commerce is. This is where the business is getting done. What was it like being CEO of a construction company uh being on 24 7 um you know it was fun i've i had a good time you know building um this being able to build something from beginning to end is significant and then the impact that it has on the community in which it's in. Whether it's in Manhattan, Brooklyn, you know, the Shirley Chisholm Community Center that we just finished in Brooklyn.

33:57I mean, paying a tribute to a black female who has been significant to our country and then being able to see the impact it has in Brooklyn on the young kids that come to that facility is just incredible. So being that close to the ground was good. I mean, you're still managing all the areas of a business that you're supposed to manage. The finances, the marketing, the operations, the HR, which has gotten tougher over the years. But it was good. It was good. You're you're responsible for growing the business, moving into new markets. And I enjoyed that. I enjoyed the business development and I still haven't given that up because a lot of it is about relationships.

34:56You know, if I had to talk about my management style, I would say, you know, it was very entrepreneurial. It was relationship driven. And it was about taking calculated risk and being prepared. Well, look at where you're going again. Building casinos is where you're going. That's where I'm going. That's where you're going. But, you know, a quick flashback to, you know, where you've been. Right. You grew up again, as you said, in Nashville, Tennessee. Your dad was a part of the business, your mom as well. What was that like for you growing up in Nashville, Tennessee? Nashville was much smaller when I grew up.

35:33Yeah. But I grew up in North Nashville, which is where Tennessee State, Meharry, and Fisk were located. And all three of the, so it was like a black conclave of education, black excellence, and community. But it was right down the street from Vanderbilt. So education was a very important of our upbringing. My mother's father was provost of Fisk University. She graduated from Fisk University. Math degree, right? Math degree, yes. And, well, she was a math teacher. Math teacher. She had psychology undergrad and grad school. And so, you know, we had doctors, lawyers, usually on the men's side. We were the only real construction company, one or two other architects.

36:33But Zee Alexander Luby, you know, we're talking about Langston Hughes and And and honor bond tops would is where my mother would grow, where my mother grew up on the fifth campus. They would come to her home. So all this rich history is what we had in Nashville. And so Nashville was a great place to grow up and I guess be nurtured. Yeah. In who we are as as as black people. So then when it came time for me to venture out of my neighborhood and to go to a all white school. I was ready. Yeah. And of course, I had my twin sister. So it was two of us. It wasn't me all by myself. That may have been a little different.

37:32Yeah. Yeah. And Nashville was very much segregated. Back then. So there were white neighborhoods and there were black neighborhoods and very little of anything else. Like we didn't have Chinese restaurants growing up like we do in New York. We didn't have Italian restaurants. That's not Nashville was not integrated in that way. Yeah, it is now, but it wasn't then. Yeah. What did you learn from your parents? I mean, again, your dad was in the business and he always took you and your sister and brought him, brought you guys to the office. And there were tracing T's and I's and all that good stuff.

38:12And your mom, obviously, you know, force of nature when she fired you from your own job and told you you got to come back. But what would you learn from your parents, especially your mom? Because I know you said that was your mentor. God bless her life. I know you just lost her. Well, my father gave me this very gargarious, happy persona in business. He was never too high. He was never too low. He was just always calm and full of joy. And my mom was more of the get stuff done properly the first time. Excellence is who she was and she believed in. And she also believed in speaking up, just speaking up and asserting herself when she was in the room.

39:10And many times she was the only woman in the room and definitely the only black woman. So she garnered a lot of respect in the community of Nashville because when she spoke up, it was usually right. If it was suing the city of Nashville for not bringing black contractors on to airport projects, she was right. Now, it wasn't popular, but she would do it. when they didn't give her money at the bank. And she baked her famous lemon meringue pies and took them up to the president of the bank and put them on the conference room table and said, I know you want this, but you're not going to get a slice of my pie until you start treating me the way you treated my husband.

39:57That took a lot of nerve. You know, there's a story in my book that we were in the department store at Harvey's, which was downtown Nashville. They had a black and white bathroom. And mom was like, I'm not going to the black bathroom on the basement floor. I'm going into the main bathroom on the first floor. And we walk in and they have a black woman at the door making sure black people don't come in. and she started going after my mom and mom's like i am going to this bathroom and she said by the way can i go see mr harvey let him know how much money i spend in this store this is in the 60s yeah so she just no fear no fear no fear faith over fear yeah Yeah.

40:55Yeah. You tell that story. And I respected another one that you told about, you know, when you both were going into a business room and it was a white guy in there and he did not look you in the eye at one at one time. But you still went and pitched yourself. And later he came over and says, I would love to do business with you. And then your mom took you out and said, let that be example to you. Right. You never judge a book by its cover. You went in thinking he's not looking at me. He's not going to do business with me. But then you sold your story. And I'm scared. Yeah. And you were nervous.

41:23Right. And that was a way of your mom telling you, tell your story. Don't be afraid of who you are, because people in this country or certain people love our struggle and how we overcame. Right. And that was that I felt like that was an important message. Right. I mean, there are white people out there that are more sincere about using black businesses than some black people. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sure you've encountered 100 percent. Yes. Yes. They're in your corner 100 percent. And so you don't really know what someone is thinking. So that's what mom taught me in that instance when I had to pitch the company for the first time.

42:04And that did help me. I mean, later on in life, I go in the rooms and I talk about McKissick and McKissick. Next week, I'll be in Washington leading the delegation of the New York Building Congress, their first black chair of the board in 102 years. And I don't even think there is another black person in the delegation. And when I'm sitting there with the large companies, the Skanska's, the Turner's, the WSPs, they're talking, oh, we our company is, you know, I don't know how many billions. And, you know, we work in all 50 states. And I sit there and I say, we are the oldest black owned design and construction firm in America that incorporated in 1905.

42:58and there can be no fear in saying that right because i'm totally different than everyone else i'm representing that's right yeah yeah and you go off to howard university right and you know i i think i know why you went there because your dad said he wasn't paying for any place else right he said you can go anywhere you want but i'm only going to pay for howard right um i know that that was like part of the deal but you know when you think back and flashback on that experience um how how is going to howard university helped you become the businesswoman as you are today howard is the black mecca yeah okay at howard university we had everyone you know nikki giovanni we you know comey came remember to howard and spoke after all of his issues some of the black artists I mean we had everyone come through Howard University entertainers and so they were teaching classes you know Angela Davis right for some time was at Howard so Howard was the black Mecca and so it taught me to have a sense of pride but not only Howard but at the time DC itself was a black conclave you know was Marion Barry was mayor yeah of DC and he grew a lot of black businesses and when I got to witness that in college yeah and so Howard H you you know yeah yeah yeah when I hear it I look up there's Howard it's Howard back Cheryl and and again such a rich history in your family but But when you have to sit back and you reflect, right, seeing where your parents were, seeing your great-great-grandparents and everything, the history that they left, and where you guys are today as a business.

44:57But in between, you know, going to Howard, finding those five investors to give you five thousand dollars each and you paid them back six thousand to kind of get the business at McKinsey, get it back, you know, resonating because you bought the original company back in 1990, 2000. Yeah. Yeah. Ninety nine. Ninety nine. Those investors that helped you, you know, kind of, you know, revitalize the company and keep it afloat. and the projects that you were part of. Again, looking at J.P. Morgan and the trading floor, $2 trillion a day that gets traded on that floor, knowing that your history, your family's history, helped establish that floor.

45:35And you have to think about your career and your journey in one word. What word would you say that is? Perseverance. Perseverance. Why perseverance? I would say because it's staying the course. is what you said in the very beginning. It's staying focused on what I know God wants me to do. And let me tell you, you don't see it coming together. God never lights the whole path up, but he gives you a light for the day. You make it through the day, you know, and through the night, morning's coming. And so that's how I would sum it up as perseverance. staying on my course, not measuring myself against what other people are doing, not in a negative way.

46:28Of course, you can look over and say, you're doing so good. I love what you're doing. But that's not for me. What's for me is mine. That's right. And no one can take it away. And so that is how I live my life. And then my other prayer, especially when you see a lot of these celebrities going to jail in their 70s and 80s and losing everything they have i'm like lord teach me all my lessons while i'm young and i can recoup yeah let me go through every trial that's going to be significant for me early and let my latter days be my best days yeah and that is my prayer yeah paying it forward what advice would you give the next cheryl mckissick daniel well i say Daniel because she may not marry, but what would you give the next Cheryl McKinsey or a young brother out there who may, again, be looking to get into the construction space?

47:23Because, again, construction is such a vital part of our economy. If we're not building anything, then we're stale, right? I don't think we have enough respect for those who build. We just kind of beep our horn because we're mad in traffic as they're building. But what advice would you give the next set of entrepreneurs in a construction business um you know i always say do the right thing i always say have integrity do the right thing build up your good karma because you're gonna need it and and if you do that everything else is going to be okay yeah it's gonna all work out it's gonna be sloppy it's gonna be messy but it will work out yeah eventually yeah and and that's what i would say you know it's faith over fear don't be afraid step out there do the big thing dream the big dream and it'll come true yeah and it'll come true more than you could ever dream that's right yeah i lived it you did you have your family has well for a very long time yeah um but you had a quote uh and and i believe it was on uh the the waymakers podcast oh yeah with lewis yes i love the president of bt and uh you said i don't focus on a lot of things i have one or two things i'm trying to do period i go for 20 that's going to make the 80 that's going to make 80 percent of the difference i love that quote elaborate on that a little bit because i encounter a lot of entrepreneurs they say they're doing this they're doing that they got five or six things going and i'm like how do you find time to you know serve five kings or five things five queens how do you find time to do it so i love that quote you should only focus on one or two and you give your best to those one or two things yeah um my coach gave me a book long time ago called the one thing and that is figuring out the one thing that's going to have the highest impact to whatever you're trying to do yeah and that one thing becomes the priority for you and so that's how I started operating my life that's how I start putting my priorities in place and so when I get up in the morning I don't even I have a written list of all the things I would like to do but I don't have to look at it because the night before I'm thinking about what are the one or two things I'm going to do tomorrow that's going to have the highest impact and that's what I do I make sure I do it I may not get to all the emails that day because that one thing may take some time and eventually I do get to every one of my emails but I am going to do those one or two things to move the needle yeah you think that's helped you become a better leader over time yes yes it has helped me uh accomplish what i need to accomplish in life yeah um it has helped me instead of being a scatterbrain thinking about all the things that i need to do um no i'm not gonna i'm not gonna fall into that trap because if you start thinking about all the things that you need to do then you get uh you get a paralysis by analysis and i've had that yeah you know you don't know which way to go that's wasting your time yeah you may as well work on the one thing that is going to make the difference and usually 20 of what you're doing has the 80 impact that's the 80 20 rule so what are those what's that 20 that i need to do yeah and the other thing which i didn't say in that quote is I only shoot to complete 90 % because that's still an A.

51:19I don't have to do 100. People forget that, right? It's like that 90 is an A, right? I'll take it. You'll take it. Cheryl, I can keep you here all day, but I know I'm going to get you out of here on some fun stuff. And again, thank you so much for the time and congratulations. You've made plenty of lists before, so I'm sure this isn't up there with anyone. But at the same time, again, your legacy is what stands out to me. The McKinsey legacy is always powerful. I see a lot of businesses out there, you know, business of all color, but a lot of black business out there, and they don't get a chance to see two years, let alone five generations, right?

51:55And so that is very impressive to see that your family has that history. And I too was on Martha's Vineyard, and I'm glad to say that your book was all over the bookstore that I went to. I'm like, oh my God, there's the book. So how's the book going is it is it excellent we just went into paperback august 11th so that's a good sign yeah it is yeah it is that means people are buying it up and what's the feedback been i mean people strangers have they been contacting oh yes we own instagram and social media we get all kind of great comments you know we encourage people to do their family tree to understand what their history is and anyone can have a legacy because it's not what you leave behind.

52:37It's what you put in motion while you're here that can create a legacy in the future. Yeah, I love that. I'm going to use that on a quote card. I love that. I'll get you out of here on some fun stuff. If I gave you, Cheryl, 10 grand right now, not that you need it, right? But if I gave you 10 grand right now, what's the first thing you invest in? Oh, my goodness. 10 grand for me right now probably would be the market. I probably would do the market. Put it in J.P. Morgan, right? Let them mess with it. I love it. Here you go, Adama. Yeah. My black investment banker. I love it. I love it. Cheryl McKinsey's superpower.

53:15What is it? My superpower is my woo, my ability to be authentic. And at the same time, while I'm authentic, I can influence. Yeah. Yeah. Love that. Love that. When you look at, you know, the construction business again in 2026. Right. Keeping cost in mind and the opportunities in different places, especially the South. But looking at the sector as a whole, what does Cheryl see in the construction business in 2026? Lucrative, lucrative, can build wealth. And I recommend it. That was like, period. I recommend it. Period. Period. Period. You know, and, you know, it's interesting. Our young kids now want gratification quickly.

54:03And so a lot of them want to go into investment banking and things like that. But we need skills. So I think our family can shows that you could start off with just building trade skills and turn into a complete empire. Yeah. And so being in the trades is still a good, respectable career. Favorite AI app? What are you using now? What does Cheryl McKinsey get up and use AI wise? I go between ChatGPT and Claude. I love Claude. Yeah, I love Claude. Claude is great. I was a ChatGPT guy at first, but Claude is completely taking over. Well, Claude is good on legal documents and putting together long-term plans and things like that.

54:53But chat is that quick. It's quick. That quick email you want to send out and you want to say it correctly. Or I was at my cousin's wedding and he needed like a little sign made to say congratulations. And they used ChatGPT, did the sign, put it up on the billboard. I'm like, geez, I knew it could do it. But it was the first time I saw that like fast like that. So when you're creating ChatGPT, Gemini, but when you're needing some real work done, I say claw research-wise and things of that nature. It's changed my life. Yeah. It has. It makes things easier for you? Oh, very easy. Very easy. I'm a numbers person.

55:27I was never like a big writer. Yeah. And so being able to say, I know what I want to say, but the tone, I can change the tone with chat. Yeah. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Get you out of here on this. my favorite business book, Jim Collins, Good to Great. I love it. I love that book. It's a great leadership book. I love that one, too. I'm sure you do, right? What's the difference between a good construction company and a great one? Oh, wow. A good construction company builds to standards, builds to specs and design. A great one builds with soul. Train? A great one builds with soul. So there's more to the project than just construction.

56:25It's the people. It's the people who are actually doing the construction matter. I love that. Love it. Built with soul. Yeah. Soul. Yeah. I love it. I love it. Caring about others. A hundred percent. Your soul's in a good place. My soul's in a good place. I'm God's favorite. My favorite too, right? Thank you so much for the time, sure. I really appreciate it. Congrats again on the legacy of the business. And I hope that it sees another hundred plus years with new succession. And it's no plans to keep it out of the family, right? You're keeping this in the McKinsey family, right? Yes. Well, recently I had a daughter who's stepping up now.

57:05She's 31. She graduated from George Washington with organizational sciences. She's like, I'm ready to do more. She's been with us for about six years. Okay. So we're training her to be an owner. I'm training her to have a seat on the board, which will be a six-year process. She started back with Columbia Business School yesterday. Nice. I love it. I love it. So it's not going anywhere. It's going to be McKinsey. No. It's going to be McKissick. I'm not saying I'm not opening it up to my management team because they're great. Yeah, absolutely. But it stays, the family name stays McKissick. Yeah, I love it.

57:38I love it. Cheryl McKissick Daniel, thank you so much for the time. Appreciate it. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening to the journey of Cheryl McKissick Daniel and McKissick Construction Company as part of our Forbes BLK 25 Businesses to Watch list. See you next time.

58:27We'll be right back. Save on the stain Oh, and free waffles are yours to claim Well, I hope you like my little song Book direct at choicehilletales.com