Mrs. Dow Jones: Why the Old Money Rules Don't Work Anymore | Fortune Daily

0:00So what if you're not actually bad with money, but the rules you were taught are just wildly out of date? Haley Sacks is better known as Mrs. Dow Jones, and she had her own money wake-up call over a 401k form at her first ever job. I have to say that's incredibly relatable. When she went looking for answers online, she found finance bros and she found extreme penny pinches, but not much in between. So she started making her own videos using her comedy background to explain money. Eight years later, she has more than 2 million followers. She has a seven-figure business. And she has a New York Times best-selling book called Future Rich Person.

0:44But she isn't a licensed financial advisor. Yet for millions of young people, particularly women, she's become a go-to source on everything financial. She joins me today to talk about why those old money rules no longer apply. I'm Ellie Austin in New York and this is Fortune Daily.

1:08Hayley Sachs, Mrs Dow Jones, it's such a pleasure to have you here with us on Fortune Daily. I want to start with your origin story as it was. So your father worked in finance and very relatably you still had no idea what a 401k was when you came to have your first job and have to fill in a form. Tell me about at that point, who you went to for financial advice. Was it your dad? Was it the internet? I'm interested in that part of your story.

1:36Haley Sacks: Well, Ellie, I was basically like if Michael Jordan's daughter couldn't shoot a free throw because my dad has been on Wall Street for like 40 years and I had no idea about money. And so I went to the internet. I didn't go to him. I didn't go to anyone in my family because I was a bit embarrassed, which I think happens to a lot of people. But also, I'm a millennial. That's what we do. We Google things. And so, yeah, I went right online. So your dad worked on Wall Street, but you weren't talking about money and finances at home. Why do you think that was? He just never brought his work home with him.

2:08Haley Sacks: And I also think that he didn't grow up with much. And maybe it felt like it was a privilege for us to not have to worry about it or like hear about it the way that he did when he was growing up, which I think is relatable for a lot of parents where you want your kids to enjoy their childhood and it feels really adult. But actually the best way to raise children is to make money part of the conversation. And in 2018, you got laid off from your then job. Yeah, so twist the knife. Twist, I know. Yeah, just go right back. I'm sorry to take us back to that bleak moment, but that's what happened. And it kind of faulted you into better things because at that point in 2018, You decided not to get another corporate job as it were.

2:52What made you feel secure enough to go on your own at that point?

2:57Haley Sacks: Well, first of all, I had created connections at the job that I was at that made it so that I was going to be freelancing. Tell us what you were doing briefly. So I was working for Lorne Michaels. F &L. Yeah. He had like a digital production company. So we all remember like the college humor days, you know, when that was a big thing. everyone having their comedy websites. So I was doing that for SNL and my coworker was actually Ben Marshall, who's the redhead on SNL now. So he's gone on to great things, which is exciting. We've taken very different paths. But so what made me feel confident was, and before I got the job, I should add, I was just the queen of any sort of small gig.

3:40Haley Sacks: Like I was working at a Pilates studio. I was a nanny for a kid named Winthrop on the Upper East Side. Like I catered. I was whatever could help let me do my creative work I was going to do. And so when I left Above Average, though, I had connections at other media companies where they needed writers. And so I was able to sort of piece together working there for like three days a week. And then also I definitely got help from my parents on rent. Which is important to say. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, no, I was so, I never want to, you know, not talk about that stuff because it's so important. So I'm really interested in what you said about the American dream, because obviously in generations past, owning a home was the goal.

4:24And that now isn't realistic for a lot of us. What does success look and feel like for millennials and Gen Zs?

4:31Haley Sacks: Yeah, it's so complicated because we all still have this idea in our head that when we own a home, that's when we're going to be an adult. but we have to rethink that because many of us are never going to own a home and actually that's okay because if you put your down payment money in the stock market most of the data shows and obviously you have to run the numbers where you actually live that you will make more money in the stock market than you would the housing market and do you rent or own i'm a millionaire and i proudly rent wow and is that your goal indefinitely do you ever see yourself buying And what would have to shift for you to want to buy?

5:08Haley Sacks: I think I would have to hit a certain benchmark in my investments. I would only buy as a lifestyle choice, never as an investment choice. I think that's what has changed with the American dream is that with our parents, it was seen as this nest egg. Oh, you could own your home. And then that's also going to be something that gives you all this financial security. But we're not seeing that add up in the numbers. So once I have a family, I would personally really love to own a house outside of the city. But I know that it's going to be a money trap. Like I know I'm going to choose the handles of every door and like the paint colors and it will be great.

5:45Haley Sacks: But it's just going to be a total loss of cash. But if that's what's going to make me happy and I have my investments in a good place, then maybe I'll do it. You've told Fortune in the past that women are particularly done a disservice by this new economy, really. and that the old rules don't apply even more strongly to women. Why is that? You know, the old rules of building wealth for women were specifically hard because we were taught to follow this script of having kids really young, taking care of our parents and then also the children. And then, you know, every time that we have children, you lose four to 7 % of your wages.

6:27Haley Sacks: And so it really takes you out of your earning potential, which is why I get really excited when we see women like Hilary Swank at 52 setting a new example of this new economic playbook where she's walking around and pregnant at 52. But paying devil's advocate, she has the resources to make that happen. Of course. So for whatever fertility treatments may or may not have been involved. Yes. And those fertility treatments cost 20 to 100K. Is that realistic for the average woman, I guess, is my question. No, it's not. And I also, this is not me saying that like you should wait. I think that the best case scenario would be that you're able to have kids whenever you want.

7:07Haley Sacks: But I think that the old system really encouraged women to prioritize, not to make their own choices, not to do what was right for them and instead to do what was sort of pushed on them by society. And now we're seeing more women, because they have more economic power, make decisions sort of just based on what actually works for them. And so that's what I'm excited about. And we've talked on this show before about the great wealth transfer and how a large proportion of that money is going to be passing into the hands of younger women. Yes, which is so exciting. And I think what's most important is that we create advice and there's advisors and there's systems around that transfer so that women feel really confident when they come into that money.

7:51And what do you see as your role in all of this? As we approach that, you know, I would imagine that many of your followers are women. I don't know the breakdown, but you have a role for many of these women. You've become a go-to financial advisor. How do you see your role at this specific moment in time economically?

8:07Haley Sacks: You know, it's such an interesting time, I think, probably for both of us in media, because we're seeing so much shift with AI, of course. But I think that AI is an amazing assistant, but it doesn't replace a human. And it should be a tool, but not the go-to. And so I think that using AI and things like that to help organize your finances and, you know, create more clarity around where you're at is great, but it should never act as a fiduciary. And you should never rely on it to actually make decisions for you. So I think that the role for me is really to make sure that people are looking in the right place for advice and just to be that trusted steward.

8:48Haley Sacks: because as there's more noise, every day you go online, you know, our parents saw 500 ads a day. We see 5 ,000, 20 % of what you see on Instagram is an ad. Like there's so much noise and so many people who just want to take your money. And so Mrs. Dow Jones is really that safe haven where you know, okay, if it's coming from me, this is trusted advice that's there to actually help you grow wealth. And that's it. And I'm interested in when you say trusted and how you think about your responsibility? Because obviously you have this enormous following. You're not a licensed financial advisor. So how do you think about your responsibility and what would you never say, for example?

9:26Haley Sacks: I think about my responsibility very intensely because my credibility is everything to me. And I talk a lot about having an emergency fund and how important that is in your personal financial journey because it gives you the power to say no. If you have money on the side, put away. You can walk away from a bad relationship. You can walk away from a bad job. It gives you that power. And I sort of think it's the same in my business where because my finances, I've set up the finances of my business so that they're not all weighted on brand partnerships. We have different income streams. I can say no.

10:04Haley Sacks: So I say no all the time. And that is what makes me so trusted is that I'm only saying yes to these partners that I actually use. I always say I'm patient zero. Like I'm influencing myself first and foremost. And so it really does come from a place of, you know, actual trusted and used financial, you know, stewardship. Because that was going to be a question, which is you do these brand partnerships, some are with financial companies. How do you maintain that degree of integrity? But you've just, you've just explained that you have built an audience that gives you discretion now, a platform that gives you discretion around what you say yes to.

10:37Haley Sacks: Yeah. And you can't, it's sort of like what Haley Bieber said in your interview where it's like, But I think that it's more authentic for me where it's like we actually, the margins aren't the most important thing. Where the most important thing is to have a long, virtuous career as Mrs. Dow Jones. I want to do this forever. So if that means in the shortcoming, in the short term, saying no to something, even if it's a lot of money. Like, for example, I, since the beginning, have been very anti-buy-now-pay leader. And not only have they come at me with like trying to do legal action because they don't like that I talk about what actually happens if you don't pay off your buy now, pay later.

11:13Haley Sacks: They love to position themselves as zero percent. But of course, you know, when you actually don't pay, those numbers are higher than if you don't pay a credit card. It's very pernicious. But they've also offered me like six or seven figure deals to, you know, take the other side. And so really being able to say no, I think is powerful. You'd give really good advice on the emergency fund, for instance, and things like that. How about people who don't have the opportunity to amass any sort of wealth right now? So I'm thinking about gig workers, which is obviously a huge phenomenon in our current economy.

11:46What's your advice to them? And where should they be seeking financial guidance from?

11:52Haley Sacks: You know, with millennials and Gen Z, part of this new American dream is stepping away from that career where you're in the same job for 40 years. Like even you, we were talking about your career. You popped around a lot too. Same with me. And I think we see that with millennials and Gen Z where they want to own their time and own their career more than be owned. And so it makes sense that we're seeing a lot of gig workers and people who want to work for themselves. That being said, it can be very hard financially. I would say the most important thing is to understand the benefits of being a gig worker.

12:31Haley Sacks: Like what are the tax advantages that you have so that you can work the system so that you're not falling prey to things like, oh, I forgot to save 30 % for my taxes. And then I'm in this position where I'm in tax debt, you know, things like that. And you understand what the retirement accounts are that you have access to, you know, SEP IRAs, solo 401ks, things like that. And that was the pandemic. We've had meme stocks, We've had crypto. Yes. Now we're - Prediction markets. Prediction markets. Yes. Well, that's what I want to come on to. So last week at Most Powerful Women, I interviewed Luana Lopez Lara, the COO and founder of Kaoshi.

13:06And she told me, perhaps unsurprisingly, that she believes prediction markets are good for society. I'd love to know what your response is to that.

13:13Haley Sacks: That's tough to hear, girl. You know, I used to wake up every day and put my armor on to go to battle with Buy Now Pay Leader. And now I'm actually in two wars. So by now, pay later, of course, we maintain our, we're after them always. But now I have a new op and that is the prediction markets. And I am so against them. I think the way that they are marketed where it is financially sophisticated. Oh, if you do this, then it actually means that you're investing. It's, you know, very pernicious. And, you know, with the American dream really changing, people are so desperate for a way to make money and to advance themselves that I think having something on your phone that makes you feel like so immediately you could change your life, it's addictive.

14:01Haley Sacks: It makes you want to impulsively just put money into it because you want to change your situation so badly that you're going to go for it. And so what regulation would you like to see around them? I think we need government regulation for sure. That's really the only thing that I can think of that could help because right now it's so unregulated. And I'm just seeing, I hear so much from my audience, these horror stories around it. So yeah, that's really what I would recommend. I saw you post recently that you almost got scammed by a text message. What hope is there for the rest of us if Mrs. Dow Jones almost fell victim to a scam?

14:33Haley Sacks: I know. Well, you know, the key to not getting scammed, Ellie, is you always have to hang up and actually call the number on maybe the back of your credit card or on your bank website. Call them directly. Like whenever someone calls you and there's this urgency and they make you feel like you have to do it right now, hang up and just call the number directly. Even if you get all, it's so crazy, right? Even if you get the text messages and it comes in and it says like, it's me, your bank, you know, whatever it is. Don't trust it. Do not trust it. A curiosity question for me. I've noticed online this rise of hot girl finance, whether it be Hot Smart Rich.

15:13There's a podcast in the UK called Hot Girl Finance. Why are we seeing this enmeshment of finance and women needing to be hot?

15:21Haley Sacks: I know. That's so true. But for me, I'll take the other side where I think that any way that we can get women to feel empowered about their finances is awesome and great. And if that's how you need to brand it in order to get that audience to listen, I'm here for it. But that being said, I don't think that you need to be any sort of woman to be good with your finances. Like that was something that really kept me out of my own financial literacy was my – it wasn't hot girl, but I always thought you were to be one of those girls who was like – had really good handwriting, was really organized. And like just – I was always a mess, like very ADHD.

16:03Haley Sacks: I'm very type B. I talk about it all the time. And so I thought that I wasn't together enough to have my finances together. So I think that whenever we put these, I don't know, like... Packaging. Yeah, whenever we package it in this way where it's binary, where you're either this thing or not, it keeps people out. And so I don't love that. But I do think whatever can get people to listen. Mrs. Dow Jones, Hayley, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for dropping in. I'm so excited. Thank you. Next up, Nneka Ogwamike is leaving the WNBA while still at the very top of her game. But she isn't done with basketball just yet.

16:40Because after leading the players union through a landmark labor deal, she's now joining Project B, which is a new global league that travels from city to city, just like Formula One. And Fortune's Kristen Stoller sat down with her. Nneka, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here. Of course. So you have had two jobs in the WNBA. One as player, one as union president. I want to start off by asking you, in that time, you negotiated two collective bargaining agreements. Is there anything you've learned today about leverage here in 2026 that you wish you could go back and tell your younger self in 2020?

17:21you know actually I I don't know if I would go back and tell myself anything other than hold on to the foundation that got you through this first cda negotiation I think everything happens as it should to prepare us for what's next and so it was amazing for us to be able to negotiate in 2020 and then be on the heels of what ended up being a bubble season we use that certainly as a blueprint, if you will, for how we could negotiate and also be better and face different challenges this time around in 2026. Now, being an athlete is hard for many, many reasons. But I think, you know, the unique thing about this type of career is that there are physical limitations.

18:02So there is typically an end date that I think you want to plan for early in your career. Talk to me about how you thought about that and how did that shape your business decisions? Oh, I mean, just knowing when I was going to be done, right? Yeah. So I didn't actually know I was going to be done entering this season. Um, I was set to sign a two year, a two year deal and things happen in free agency, you know, because of negotiations, um, free agency was like 72 hours. It was not very long. So I was like, okay, let me take things by stride. I wasn't going to take any visits, ended up taking a couple of visits.

18:35Um, and then, uh, a few things happened. And I only ended up signing one year. And I was like, okay, you know what? It's fine. I'm going to play this year, see how it goes, and then figure out where I'm going to go the year after. Got into training camp, and I still love the fresh feel of new team and new energy. But just something told me that I wanted to leave as much as I could out for one more year. I didn't want to feel like I had to reserve anything just because I had my mind set on signing a two-year. And so with that, it was really a, I don't want to say a crash course, but it was an accelerated course of me understanding, I guess, the business of that decision.

19:17And so I have a very small and mighty team. We had many calls about, okay, announcement, rollout, how you want to do it, you know, what are you looking forward to after, how do you want your post-retirement season to go, you know. And even while I was playing, like, how do I want to address certain things? And it was truly a beautiful process because you're learning so much about yourself while also planning for your potential. And I don't think that a lot of us really consider our own potential. We're always planning for what's happening right in front of us and, you know, trying to achieve goals in the roles that we currently occupy.

19:53but knowing that I had on my terms decided when I wanted to be done gave me a very insightful perspective on what I wanted that to look like and I think people really do kind of add a little bit of negativity to endings but I do think that if you can do it on your own terms you can turn it into whatever it is and it can actually be it can actually be the beginning of your greatest chapter And so that's the approach that I had this season. Let's talk about your next chapter and what you're doing next, because you've transitioned from traditional brand endorsements to now taking equity stakes, such as your involvement with the Project B League.

20:33Talk to me about what's next for you and how you're looking at these different business opportunities. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I have more time without playing in the W, but learning so much from the relationships and also just witnessing the different levels of positions and involvement on the business side. And I think I took that a little bit into, you know, signing with Project B. You know, equity stake is not something that's often presented to women. And so to be a part of a league in which you're an owner in and you have that level of autonomy to be a part of. And also to, quite frankly, you know, to be a part of what Project B is about is to elevate your brand level at a global audience.

21:16And so I'm just I'm very excited to see how that is. I think I also love that I'm re-entering this world of playing internationally. I played internationally for quite some time, and then I wasn't for quite some time. And so I'm looking forward to seeing what I was able to build in the time of playing overseas and then time of building myself off the court when I wasn't playing, and then also what I've been able to learn being in the W and just kind of pouring all of that in to this startup. You know, and I really do feel like I have that startup first day of school energy. So I'm looking forward to it.

21:51You know, as an athlete, how do you learn the business side of things that you were just talking about? How did how did you personally take it from a space where you didn't have as much background into being in those rooms? Yeah, I mean, I think it starts with relationships, certainly. You know, as athletes, we have a unique experience. You know, we're playing and so we're exposed to so many different types of people who can put you in different rooms and give you different experiences. And so not closing myself off to those experiences. And then when you're in those rooms, doing a lot of listening, but before declaring or convincing people what you know, asking questions.

22:32I think asking questions is something that has really helped me not just learn, but generate interest and curiosity to want to learn. Not approaching things necessarily as a means to an end, but utilizing those relationships and the experiences and the communications and interactions that you have in those rooms to build the curiosity and the interest for certain things that you may or may not know are impacting your business, but then also impacting, you know, your future self. So, Monica, thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for having me. And finally, how should we expect the war with Iran to evolve as we head into the midterms.

23:12Well, Jordan Bloom explains what analysts predict will happen next. It's a lot like the classic Bill Murray movie Groundhog Day, where he repeats the same day over and over again until he gets it right. We're repeating the same day in Iran over and over again. There's really no end in sight, partly because President Trump doesn't want to escalate things before the midterms. The war is unpopular. He knows it. and what we're really looking to see if Iran is going to escalate because, quite frankly, Iran wants to inflict harm. One of my sources was saying, you know, combine that with the U.S. election calendar and over the next few weeks, the Iranians might be tempted to lash out again.

23:51If Trump is not willing to give them what they want, then their goal will be to humiliate him. If you look at the quote unquote battle of the Strait of Hormuz, I mean, the U.S. is winning right now. We're getting more oil through than we have at any time during the war. But it's happening at great cost, at great effort. And that's something the U.S. can't keep up forever. We've, you know, been depleting our strategic petroleum reserves to near emergency levels. It can't keep happening. The Iran war stuck in a morass at least until the midterms. Trump doesn't want to change things. Iran might. We'll see.

24:25For more energy news, please head to fortune.com. That's it for Fortune Daily. I'm Ellie Austin. What's the worst piece of financial advice you've ever received? Let us know in the comments. I'll see you tomorrow.