She Gave Herself One Year to Make Crime Junkie Pay. Now She Runs a Podcast Network | Fortune Daily

0:00She started a true crime podcast and gave herself one year to make it pay the bills. Now she runs one of the biggest independent podcast networks in the whole of America. Ashley Flowers launched Crime Junkie in 2017. Today it's the second most downloaded show on Apple Podcasts and her company, which is called AudioChuck, has its own team of journalists reporting every true crime case that the company covers. But growth has been tricky. There's been a lot of staff turnover. There's been various CEOs in pretty quick succession. And also a recent decision earlier this year to shut down AudioChuck's second most popular show.

0:41I wanted to talk to Ashley Flowers because she's one of the most successful female podcasters in the world. And as we know, podcasting is a very male-dominated sector. It's always very interesting to think about the kinds of criticisms leveraged young women who start companies compared to what might be reported about their male peers running similar companies or in different sectors. The other thing that's very interesting about Flowers is that she operates in the true crime sphere, which obviously comes with some pretty hefty ethical dilemmas. and Flowers says she thinks very carefully about that.

1:18She is telling stories about female victims in a way that she hopes is utilitarian for the women themselves and their families rather than just being pure entertainment. I'm Ellie Austin in New York and this is Fortune Daily.

1:36Ashley Flowers, welcome to Fortune Daily and thank you so much for making time for us while you are in New York. Thank you for having me. Pleasure to have you. So you started Crime Junkie in 2017, your show. Tell me what it was then and what it has become now, almost a decade later. Oh, wow. What it was in 2017 was, I would say, like a manifestation of what being a Crime Junkie meant, which was, hey, I'm going to go out. I'm going to learn everything I can about a story. And I'm going to tell it to you in one place in a way that is super interesting. and then I'm going to tell you what you can do.

2:14That's kind of been at the center of our show. How do I become a part of this? How do I advocate? What do I learn? What it has become 10 years later is, I mean, we are essentially a news organization. So now it is less, let me tell you about the story everyone knows in a consolidated place. And so much more, it is about, let me tell you a story that probably would never have made it to you to begin with, or a side of the story you haven't heard because we have now our team of journalists who are going in and deeply reporting on every single story for a weekly show, which is wild. I want to talk about the business.

2:52So Crime Junkie is the second most downloaded podcast on Apple Podcasts. You founded and control AudioChuck, the parent company. And also there's a minority stake, which is owned by Churning Group. How did you make the decisions around ownership and structure, given that you started quite humbly, just you and your show and your best friend, your co-host in 2017, talk me through those decisions? Well, when I started, I founded my LLC first. So I, and a lot of planning went into the name. I did, I knew I was going to do audio and my dog's name was Chuck. And so I said, let's just, I was so, I've always been like, I just want to make the content.

3:32Like the other stuff I think will fall into place if you're planning, you know, planning right and doing the right thing, but being authentic. And so I named it Audio Check, but it always was supposed to be a business. I knew that the amount of work and love and attention, blood, sweat, and tears I was going to pour into this thing wasn't something I could do well with a full-time job. So I gave myself a year. And what were you doing at the time? I did business development for a custom software firm in Indianapolis. It was the, when I found that job, I Googled jobs where you can bring your dog to work.

4:04So priorities. Chuck went to the office. Okay. So you gave yourself a year to do the show. Yes. But I had audio Chuck first because I, and I had kind of a business plan and I said, I'm going to give it everything for a year. And if I can make this work and if I can make this my career, then this is what I'll do. And I didn't start out thinking, I want to make a podcast network. I want to make Crime Junkie the biggest show. It was, I want to do the thing I love. I want to tell true crime stories in a way that I just don't see a lot of and if I can you know just pay my bills I think that that would be enough so that was the threshold for the first year was can I pay my bill can I pay my bills um so this year Bloomberg published a report on your company on audio check it reported about 30 of 100 employees had left within a year I I don't think this is unique to you I think often when there's a creator who's very successful and then builds an empire around themselves, expanding the company comes with challenges.

5:03What was your response to that piece of reporting? Yeah, it's hard. It's so hard to be a founder. It's so hard to know exactly what to do. And I told my team all the time, I'm like, man, you guys, if there was a playbook for what we are doing, I would pay any amount of money for it. But what we're doing hasn't been done before. And I think this is part of the reason we brought in Evelyn Webster, our new CEO. I think that we're still growing. And I think we have a long road ahead of us. And there's been a lot of learning lessons along the way. So you brought in Evelyn Webster this year, former CEO of SoulCycle, and you had a couple of other CEOs prior to that.

5:45What didn't work with those former CEOs that you hope will now function better under Evelyn? I don't know that it like what didn't work is the right thing. It's like we have been evolving so fast in we are now, you know, eight years in. But I like it feels like we're a new company almost every six months. And I think that the inflection point that we're at now, Evelyn coming in with so much experience in the role of a CEO, having that media experience, having from SoulCycle. I mean, she had that real community experience and we have a deeply invested community. And the fact that she is a woman, I think also really, I don't know if it helps her.

6:29I feel like it's helped me, like working with a CEO who understands. Tell me more about that, why that part of it is important to you. I think she understands without, like, it's almost an unspoken thing. What I'm up against as a female founder, as the face of the company, I will always face challenges that men won't have to. And for her to understand that and respect that, there's just this underlying thing that I think her and I have that builds a great foundation. And we talk a lot about the scrutiny that female founders have to face versus the scrutiny that male founders face. And tell me in your words a bit of what some of the challenges have felt like that you face being such a visible founder.

7:14Visible, yeah. I think that's part of it. Yeah. Because you're on the front of the show and you're running the company. Yeah. So I do think that like where a lot of other founders I've seen, especially if it is more of a business and you're not the face of it, It's like they will point to, you know, structures and all these different things. And now we have the wrong team, whatever. Like at the end of the day, it is all me. Like and I'm left holding the bag no matter who comes and goes. And I take a lot of responsibility and I care so deeply. And at the same time, they're talking about the way I look.

7:50And am I do I spend enough time with my daughter? Do I like am I putting her first? Am I not working hard enough? And they're, I don't know, like it's the same, I think, thing you've heard from probably a lot of women. The questions we get asked, the standards that we're held to are just different. And you very publicly this year spoke about your personal life and that personal professional balance because you said you were canceling the second most popular show at Audiochuck, The Deck, to spend more time with your daughter. Tell me how you came to that decision. Well, I mean, there's a lot that goes into it.

8:27I mean, I think that for me, I get one life. And it was our most second popular show. I think that show on any other network would be their number one, their star. But like, it just shows you how big Crime Junkie is. And when we started the deck, that was our show that did all of our original reporting. Crime Junkie didn't really do any. And now that every episode of Crime Junkie is originally reported, I was like, the purpose, like, I'm all about mission. I'm all about a why. And it's like, really, we can fulfill the purpose of the deck on Crime Junkie. and I have a little girl who's growing up so fast and I have to prioritize her and like I it's like weird I actually think like a man would be like given an award for it but I step away from my daughter and I don't know somehow it's it's sometimes positioned like a bad thing or like I'm giving up but I'm I don't know and I'm not going to apologize for it not that anyone's asking me You said that you want to build a company that sustains beyond you.

9:25But at the same time, if we're being realistic, a lot of the reason that people come to Crime Junkie, come to AudioChuck is because of you. So is that even realistic? Oh, I think it is. Because what I, and I think part of even stepping back from the deck was creating space to develop talent. Right now, all my energy has been being talent, you know, making the thing that then I go present. and I really think that I can develop people, work with people to be the next Ashley Flowers. Like I don't want this thing to just be me. I know they come for me and I'm grateful that they come for me, but I'm not the only talented person who is passionate about this genre.

10:06And so I want to have time to find the next person who is. And there was reporting that you looked for another host for the deck, but couldn't find someone. Is that correct? I think it's slightly inaccurate because yes we did look for a host but it wasn't just a host so I don't think people sometimes realize how deeply involved I am in every single story and what does it look like tell me a bit about that uh from choosing the cases to like every step with our reporter getting in the reporting our scripting listening to the audio I mean I am executive producer can sometimes means so many things, people who are in name only.

10:43But I am deeply ingrained in every case. I shape every case. I line edit every single case to make sure the final product is what I believe in and what I want to put my face on. And so I want to host. But I also, it was the back end of the show that was really the thing that was taking me away from my family and from developing talent on Crime Junkie. And so it's a little bit more than just putting another face to the show. I want to go back to the ethical side for a second. And I'd love you to talk me through the type of ethical quandary you might face when you're, you know, passing through a story and trying to figure out what you're going to report, what you're going to publish and what you're not.

11:24What are some of the biggest challenges there? I mean, we've had stories that we want to tell where a family member says, I don't want you to. And if we are, you know, at the beginning phases, I'm not going to tell a story that is going to, again, cause more harm. There have been people who are upset that we reach out to who they would think is a perpetrator and get comment from them and give them a platform to stay their side. But I believe that we have to do that, both ethically, legally. So, I mean, those are some of the areas that we get into. And this one is a little bit of a tight line, too, because people come for my opinion.

12:07This is where it's different than just a printed news story. But I don't give it too often. You think very carefully about when you give your opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Because it comes with responsibility and you're influential. Yeah. I've read that you get up at 2 or 3 a.m. in the morning. Sometimes. Is that correct? Sometimes, yeah. And as a leader, would you say that's, is that a green flag or is that a warning sign? I would say that I don't know, like, I don't hope this for anyone unless that person wants to make the number one independent podcast network. Like, there are only so many hours in a day and you don't get to where I'm at by getting to go to yoga from 9 to 10.

12:50And like, I wish it wasn't true, but like I'm trying what I what I'm so careful about it going back to my daughter is like I am home at five o 'clock so I can have dinner with her, put her in the bath, put her to bed. That means I can't work late. So sometimes I work early. And what are your expectations for your staff around hours? If you're because it's sometimes tough when the leader, the founder is working such long hours to say I'm peacing out at five o 'clock. I'm I don't think anyone has. I mean, I don't see anybody at the office at five o 'clock. And also, again, I'm piecing out at 5 o 'clock.

13:20Okay. So then you're getting on line early. Yeah. And I don't get on late at night. Like, I kind of, I get on when I wake up. And I'm also, it's not like I'm, this is when I'm up. Like, this is how I work. This is when I am most creative in the morning. I love coming into the office when there is nobody there. Like, I get almost half a day sometimes before people come in to, my time is booked from from 8am to 5pm nonstop between meetings and recordings and script reviews so that this is my time to be creative. This is my competitive edge. It's a couple of hours that I get. Because you were CEO for a number of years, correct?

13:57What point did you realize it was time for a change? I think when I was trying to do things or enter businesses that were well-established. podcasting was brand new. Like I think I had a little bit of room and grace to figure it out because everyone was figuring it out. As my ambitions started looking toward publishing and TV and products, like as we do that, I've never done those before. And what I don't have is the luxury of time to learn an entire established industry. So I knew I needed to bring somebody who could take us to the places we wanted to go because I knew I couldn't get there on my own.

14:38I think it's just a little bit of like, I don't know, emotional intelligence. And reflecting on the past eight, nine years, what's one thing you would have done differently? On this show, we love to talk about the successes. We also like to talk about the challenges. Higher, faster. Tell me more. I've always been very, I'll take big risks with like the money that I have. Like I put all my money into the company, but I never wanted to take on debt. The last thing I wanted to do was borrow money or not be able to pay somebody and have to lay people off. And so I think that my approach had been like, OK, I'm going to wait to hire.

15:16But by the time you decide to hire and then find the right person and then get them onboarded, it's like, man, I needed that person six months ago. And so I feel like that was always something that I was playing catch up on was having enough people in the seat to not only do the thing, but like look forward to where we're going. I'd love your thoughts on the rise of the TikTok sleuth and what it means for how crimes are solved. I mean, I think there's nobody's thinking about the responsibility. This comes back to like, I think we held so much responsibility as consumers. Again, before I was a creator, I was a consumer.

15:51And it's like, what are you giving attention to? we build these people up. They don't come out of nowhere. And it's important for people as consumers to look at who they're supporting. It doesn't matter if it's a great story. Like what was the foundation of it? Is it causing more harm than it is good? Like there is some responsibility has to fall on the consumer and the creators. I don't think they will last forever, but you can do so much harm even in a small amount of time. It's scary. And it's why I feel so passionate about continuing for us to have the biggest platform as possible to show people it is not the easy way to do things, but it is the right way.

16:30And I think you can do things the right way and be successful. What do you want AudioChuck to be doing in five years that it's not doing now? I really want to do a crime junkie junior. Now that I have my daughter, I was a junior crime junkie growing up and Nancy Drew or whatever it was. And I think there is like, there's something missing. My daughter loves a mystery. And when I tell her a story, I can see all the parts of her light up that did in me. And so I think that there is something for our younger fans. Ashley, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Great talking to you. You too.

17:08The midterms are here and they are about much more than who wins in Washington. They're about what comes next for your money, for your job, and for the businesses that shape your life. Luckily, we have an army of experts at our disposal here in the Fortune newsroom. So we asked reporters and editors across Beats one simple question. What's at stake in this election? Here's what they told us. What I am focused on, of course, is AI data centers. The American public has made it quite clear that they are not thrilled about AI data centers being built in their backyards. So that's where municipal, local, state elections matter the most.

17:50So this year's midterms, we're interested in seeing which candidates get elected, which will in turn influence what kind of policies AI data centers will be subject to. So tech industry leaders might be looking at a president who wants AI at all costs, let's do it, full steam ahead, and a bunch of states that are like, hold on, please, we have some problems with this. So the risk for tech is simple, it's going to slow down growth. And that's a real raw deal for the investors of those companies, especially the ones who are traded on public markets. One thing I'm really keeping an eye on is in Boulder, Colorado, they're going to have a vacancy tax measure on the ballot.

18:26And for any kind of flips or any kind of seats and races, obviously it's the like the toss ups, right? I'm looking at the Dan Sullivan's in Alaska. I'm also looking at Sherrod Brown in Ohio, looking at Susan Collins in Maine, looking at Abdul El-Sayed and everyone else in between. Voters who are feeling the pinch to their wallets will certainly want to keep their eyes open for policies that will reign in inflation perhaps make some progress towards ending the war in iran which has sent the cost of gasoline through the roof and increased shipping costs for so many american importers tariffs which ones will stay which ones will go hopefully a truce with canada which would be very good for american companies that work cross-nationally any changes potentially to immigration to deal with worker shortages in certain parts of the country.

19:14Basically, what policies out there could relieve the stress that consumers are feeling? As voters head to the polls, I think they should be thinking about affordability. It was the big question of the off-year elections last year, which made Zoran Mamdani, the mayor of New York City, and many other moderate Democrats won their races running on affordability too. And it seems like it's on voters' minds and they have to answer which party is going to do the better job for them of getting us back to something like whatever feels like affordability. I think if voters aren't paying close attention, something they might miss is that even if the Democrats win the House and the Senate back, it's still two more years until a presidential election.

19:55And lots of big things, especially the theme of affordability, they may not really be resolved for two more years. The classic left, right, red, blue no longer holds. Both parties, frankly, are representing elements of the other. And so it's very important to take a close look at what's actually happening on the ground. I speak to a lot of CEOs, and one of the things that they believe is at stake, the fate of global business. The degree to which the U.S. has imposed tariffs, the lack of predictability, what we've been doing on the immigration front, all of these things have had a pretty negative impact on the perception of the U.S.

20:33as a business partner, as a place to do business. And there's an understanding in business that those are assets we want to maintain, and if we've lost them, to regain. What's at stake for CFOs in the midterms is not just taxes, it's how confidently they can plan for next year. Control of Congress could shape spending priorities in tax policy, but a divided government could mean budget standoffs may intensify while tariff uncertainty persists. For finance leaders, a practical question is, which investments make sense across different political outcomes and which depend on Washington? I don't think there's any way for any American to avoid the issue with the price of fuel right now.

21:16What's at stake for business leaders is yields in the bond market going up. And basically what this means for all businesses is that the cost of borrowing money in the future is going to become a lot more expensive. The U.S. government is nowhere close to paying off its national debt. French government bonds are looking a little shaky. but also so many AI companies have come into the market to borrow money that lenders are now demanding higher and higher interest payments in order to fulfill these loans. And this filters through into the consumer economy. So if you are running a business, the cost of obtaining money is going up and this is making your life more difficult.

21:58Fuel prices and utility bills are the big ticket items in this election. You know, that regards both the Iran war and of course, the data center boom, you know, if the war ends, fuel prices come down. More Democrats in power could theoretically put more pressure on the White House to end things. But, you know, any peace deal, the path is still pretty unclear. In terms of AI, that's a bit more complicated. More Democrats want to put tougher regulations on data centers. Republicans, though, also are for moratoriums and things like that. And when it comes to, you know, rising utility bills, data centers, the AI boom, That's part of the equation.

22:37But replacing dilapidated infrastructure, the elevated threat of extreme weather events from wildfires to hurricanes to floods, that's arguably even a bigger part of what's driving utility bills, electricity prices. It's hard to have a crystal ball. I'm not eligible to vote here. I might become a citizen in three years for that very reason. I'm not eligible to vote in this country. Please do. That's it for Fortune Daily. I'm Ellie Austin. I'm sadly not eligible to vote in this country, but if you are, make sure you get out and do it. We'll see you tomorrow.