When to Spend Everything ft. Bill Perkins | Fortune Daily

0:02I don't know what your values, you know, having money without understanding your values and priorities is like a car without a steering wheel, you know, without AI.

0:17Hello from New York. I'm Ellie Austin and this is Fortune Daily. What's the point of being the richest person in the graveyard? What a thought that is, actually. Bill Perkins made his fortune as an energy trader, and he spent the year since arguing that almost everyone is handling their money wrong. He says we need to spend our money faster, which goes against pretty much all conventional wisdom. His book is called Die With Zero, and it's been translated into 25 languages and turned into a genuine movement in the process. Perkins says we need to spend on experiences while we're still young enough to have them.

0:59He also advocates for giving your kids their inheritance when it actually has the capacity to change their lives and not when you die and they're 50 or 60 years old, for example. He also advocates for pursuing net fulfillment over net worth. I wanted to speak to Perkins for a couple of reasons. So number one, as we've mentioned frequently on this show, we are about to see a new cohort of tech millionaires and billionaires as a result of some big IPOs. Perkins himself became a millionaire before his 30th birthday. So I wanted to know what his advice is to these new millionaires, these new billionaires on how to spend, on how to invest, and how to think about giving away parts of their fortunes.

1:47Secondly, last week, Warren Buffett, one of the world's greatest wealth accumulators, retired as chairman of Berkshire Hathaway at the age of 95 years old. What can us mere mortals learn from Buffett's approach to building wealth? Perkins has some very interesting thoughts. Bill, thank you so much for joining us. It's really great to see you. One of the reasons why I wanted to speak to you is because I meet with various executives throughout the year for my work at Fortune. And your book, Die With Zero, has come up over and over again as a book that these executives have recommended to me. Now, you published the book in 2020.

2:28And people's relationships with work, with connectivity, and also with prioritizing in-person experience has changed a lot over the course of the past six years due to the pandemic, of course, and also due to technical innovation. Tell me a bit about what's changed in how people handle and invest money since you published the book in 2020 and maybe what hasn't changed. Yeah, I think what has happened is, is that we have this, we've had the pandemic and we have had tools of extreme leverage that make people more productive. That's a blessing and a curse because you can fall into the productivity trap.

3:06And I think the executives that have read the book and has had an impact on them, they reflect it and say, I'm being productive to be productive, not necessarily to have the life that I wanted to live. And, you know, this kind of productivity porn that's out there, particularly with AI, making everyone a superhuman at their job, they tend to run on that treadmill a little bit longer and longer and longer. And, you know, there's internet and all types of social media tools that kind of actually disconnect us and not have us meeting. And I think the book kind of reminds people whatever their values are to like get realigned with those values and not fall into these traps.

3:44And the thesis of the book is really kind of what it says in the title, die with zero, which is rather than spending all your life compounding wealth and growing your wealth to then pass on in your twilight years to family members, use that wealth as you have it and prioritize your younger years when you are physically able to enjoy incredible experiences. You spent your career as a professional accumulator in many ways via energy trading and running a hedge fund. And yet, as I mentioned, the thesis of the book is really around not the argument for not accumulating wealth. So tell me a bit about how you came to write this book.

4:27Yeah, it was over many years as I was starting out, kind of broke. I read a book called Your Money or Your Life. And I was thinking about what it is all about. What is it for? Like, why do I want to accumulate money? And at that time, I was very close to the idea of the life I wanted. Now, all of the idea of the life I wanted back then, it was, I don't know, it looked like a rap video, you know, but that has changed. I realized that the goal wasn't the money. The goal was the life. And going through thinking about, okay, when is that life? When are those experiences? How much money will I need for the experiences that I want?

5:05Not that it was some sort of number, but it was some sort of lifestyle that I wanted. And I wanted to make sure that I didn't waste my time going to work for no reward. And so the concept of, you know, utility of money at the grave is zero. Just before the grave, it's extremely low. That the utility of money changes as you age and that your life has seasons. And so I wanted to make sure not only did I not miss out on my complete life, but I didn't want to miss out on any season of my life. And those thoughts and that debate and how do you think about these things and the mental models happened over years.

5:38And eventually it became a book. Did you have, when you initially started talking about this theory that you had, did you receive any pushback from the people around you? Yeah, I think, you know, the way the book is written, it's written from a point of a proof of the mental ideas. Like, hey, what about the kids? If you're going to spend all your money before you die? What about the kids? And I talk about this chapter, I think it's chapter six. What about the kids specifically? And the idea is, is that you're to spend all your money before you die. And if you plan on giving money to your kids, well, that's their money, not your money.

6:11And then we think about when is the best time to give them that money? And the answer, the short answer is it's not a bequest. It's long before you die. So tell me when is the right time, put a number on it for our viewers. Yeah, I'd say between the ages of 28 and 33. The reason why is that your brain reaches peak mental acuity at 28 on average, and you're in decline and plateau starting at 33. And then from that age onward, not only do you have less time left, less time left. I have to say, as a 36-year-old, that is quite harrowing information received, but please continue. Yeah. Is that the utility of money starts to decline and the seasons of your life start to pass you by.

6:54And so if you live a nice, long, healthy life, when you're ready to give the money to the kids, they're not kids anymore. Two thirds of their life to 70 percent of their life has already passed them by. And and that is not really thinking about your kids. That's kind of like an autopilot decision that's been passed down for generation to generation. And so I say that if you're going to leave an inheritance to your kids, separate it, put it in a trust, give them control of it between the ages of 28 and 33. And then you can focus on yourself. Like, what do you want out of life? You can take the risk that you want to take.

7:25You're not like, well, I don't want to risk all my kids' money. They already have their money. So there's lots of reasons that I won't go into on this interview that is written in the book about why you want to give your kids money earlier at the best time. This thesis, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, presumes that someone has, they saved a significant amount of money, they have disposable income to divide their money up into the amount that they maybe need at the age of 60, 70 to live day to day, and then amounts that they can pass on to their children before they're passing. How does someone who maybe doesn't have a lot of accumulated wealth fit into your framework?

8:04The framework is really about the resources you have, your wealth, your health, and your time, and using those resources to drive fulfillment. If you're low on wealth, you're really making decisions about your time. Do you stay up late at night and watch your favorite TV show, or do you read books to your kid? And realizing that your kid isn't going to want you to read books to you by the time eight, nine, maybe 13, 14, they evaporate. And so it's about making sure you get the most out of each season and realizing that certain events in your life happen at certain times. So this book is really about living intentionally and getting the most out of each period in your life, no matter what your resources are.

8:43I know that we focus a lot of it on the wealth aspect of it. And those with a lot of wealth have a lot of a lot of waste. Right. But people also waste their resources day to day, not going on autopilot, not thinking about, well, should I go visit my my mother? who may not be here in 10 years, or should I go on a trip with my friends, etc. And I don't know the right answer, but I want people thinking about that right answer so that they get maximum fulfillment. Am I right in thinking that you made your first million before the age of 30? Yes, that's correct. And so how did you, what was your financial strategy at that point?

9:17Talk us through what you saved, what you spent, and what you spent it on. It wasn't until much later that I really got clarity on what I want out of each season of my life. And not that I had, you know, every single thing because life is discovery. You don't know what you want when you come out of the womb. You discover what you want and life is discovery to the great. And so, you know, it took a bit for me to get in the mental space of like, what do I want my life to look like five, 10 years down the road? What am I saving for? Why do I need to save? So my 20s look crazy. Your 20s look crazy and that's given you the perspective to write this book later in life.

9:59One of the greatest wealth accumulators of our time, Warren Buffett, stepped down last week as Berkshire Hathaway's chairman, completing the handover to Greg Abel and passing the chairmanship to his son, Howard. Now, as I said, Buffett known for accumulating great wealth. But on the other hand, he also started moving money into his children's foundations currently while he's still alive. Give me your evaluation of Buffett's approach to wealth and managing his personal finances? Yeah, let me just start with I only know his public persona and the things out there. But I think that most people would not.

10:35No one says, hey, I want to get rich by the time I'm 80 or I want to be a billionaire by 85. You know, that's like inherently a suboptimal life. And also, I feel that although Buffett is known for fantastic returns, I think the returns on the impact of his charitable giving at an earlier age would have outperformed his returns in the market. Like I think that impact would be larger. And so I think that the way he's doing it, while it being generous, is suboptimal. I don't think it's the most fulfilling path that you could have. What would you have? What would you have advised him to do, say, 10, 15 years ago?

11:14What are the things that you, Warren, can do that you won't be able to do 10 years from now? You know, his best friend, Charlie, I saw one interview where he says, I love going fishing. And now I can't because I can't lift the tuna out of the ocean. And I thought that was a sad thing, but a stark reminder that certain activities belong in certain periods of your life. We talk a lot on this show about new wealth classes and how we're heading into a wave of massive tech IPOs that are potentially or are going to mint a new cohort of very young millionaires and billionaires, particularly from the big AI labs, for instance.

11:52Given the craziness of your 20s that you've just described and the fact that you came into money before your 30th birthday, what would be your advice to this group of future millionaires and billionaires who are going to wield so much influence in society? Yeah, I think one of the things is to really get in touch on what your values are and what life you want to have and then what the role of that newfound resource of wealth will have on that. You know, my book is great on giving you the mental models on like how to think about delayed gratification versus saving and the seasons of your life. But what it cannot do is identify your values.

12:30I don't know what your values. My values are different from, you know, the next person's values or their priorities, et cetera. And so, you know, having money without understanding your values and priorities is like a car without a steering wheel, you know, without AI. You know, it's like having this very, very fast car without a steering wheel. It's kind of directionless. And what you need to know is what are my priorities? What are my values? OK, now my wealth and health and time. How do I use these resources to get the maximum, the maximum fulfillment based on my values? And so I think a lot of times people just think we need money and they go run around and they do what's advertised to them, you know, whatever the latest commercial says they should be doing without thinking about, you know, what they really want out of life.

13:14Your book really rests on an assumption that we as humans know roughly how long we're going to live. But simultaneously, there's this huge boom in the longevity industry, which is claiming that we could, you know, within decades live to 150. And then at the same time, there's the rising costs of late in life care. Is the notion of dying with zero even possible against this backdrop? up? Yeah, I think it is. I mean, you know, everybody's familiar with life insurance, right? You die early, they give you a bunch of money. There's the opposite. There's what's called an annuity. You live too long, they pay you, you know, a fixed sum every month or every six months or whatever you design.

13:54And so there are insurance products against the risk that you're concerned about. You know, the extreme case, you live to 150 or 200. You know, I was asked the question, how much of your net worth would you give up if you could live healthily to 200. My answer was 100%. And I think a lot of people's answer is 100%. So that's not really a risk I worry about, about being in a situation where I have to work at 101, but I have the health of a 35-year-old. I'm okay with that. And lastly, as well as being an author, you're also, prior to that, a legendary trader. Give us some advice. Give us maybe one or two pieces of advice for someone who's in their 20s, they're living paycheck to paycheck, they're paying their rent, their day-to-day bills?

14:34Maybe they have a tiny bit of money left over at the end of the month. What should they be investing in or what pieces of financial hygiene should they be prioritizing to have a shot at accumulating wealth over the decades? Well, I think that the main thing is that if you're in the United States of America, there's fields and positions that you can take over when you're dead broke, right? You can move laterally to another position. I was always like, I can always be a waiter. I can always be a garbage person. I can always take those jobs. And so what you're really looking for is to invest in yourself and your knowledge, study something to the best of your ability and find yourself in a leveraged position that could change your station in life.

15:14And so what should you do with maybe a hundred bucks you have left over at the end of a month? Where should you put it? There's two things you can do. You can put it in high growth, you know, 100 to 1 type stocks, AI companies or that. Or you can invest in yourself. your own education, your own skill set, you know, learn Python, learn AI vibe coding, learn, take leisure learning classes that will improve your quality of life. You know, that's what I did. I took options, a night options class to learn options. And then I became an options head trader, you know, so that is the path I took. That's a path that seems to work.

16:00It may not work for everyone, but that's what I would do. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for having me. Sydney Sweeney, best known for her role in Euphoria, partnered with a sports prediction market. But could anyone have predicted the conversation that one advert started about women in sports? Most Powerful Women editor Emma Hinchliffe joins me next in the business of sports. Emma, hello. Thank you for joining us. So for anyone who has been living under a complete rock over the past week or so, tell us what this Sydney Sweeney ad involved. This is just the latest of Sydney Sweeney's controversial ads, which seems to kind of be her MO.

16:45But she is involved and has an equity stake in this company called Novig, which is a prediction market, which wanted to get out a very simple message, which is that it is a prediction market only for sports. Unlike Call She or Polymarket, where you can bet on basically anything. And so to do that, they had Sydney Sweeney completely in the nude, holding various sports equipment, sitting on top of a basketball hoop, just saying sports over and over into the camera. So you can imagine what that ad might look like. You can indeed. And if you haven't seen it, go watch it. It now has unsurprisingly millions of views across all platforms.

17:17A lot of female athletes, female Olympians have come out very vehemently against the ad. What have they been saying? We've seen athletes, especially there's been a few Olympic sprinters and swimmers, not really anyone who's like a true household name, but a lot of very successful athletes saying that this ad really hit close to home for them. And they were very, very upset by it. A lot of these athletes have worked so hard to be taken seriously for women's sports to be at the center of culture. That has not happened easily. It's been a really huge uphill battle to get there. And for them, it just felt like a huge step backward that all of a sudden there's this huge mainstream advertisement that just is over-sexualizing women's place in sports, even though the ad itself wasn't saying anything about women's sports and was not trying to.

18:03What do you think? Do you think it does contribute to women in sport being set back? I think that it is just so out of step with where we are in culture today. And it kind of is representing this divergence. And on the one hand, women's sports are now at the center of our culture. Women's basketball players are some of the most culturally relevant athletes we have. And at the same time, we're obviously seeing this rise of prediction markets and this kind of entirely separate demographic that Novig was trying to reach, which is young men who are betting on sports, who are just kind of many of them living in a completely different internet and seeing completely different things.

18:38And so the ad doesn't really have anything to do with women's sports, but I completely, and I don't think it sets us back necessarily, but I completely understand why so many athletes who have fought so hard to be where they are today would have such an emotional reaction to it. And I think it is very out of step with anyone except the small group that Novig was trying to target. I have to say, in a way, the ad has worked. I personally had never heard of Novig before a couple of weeks ago. And now I noticed billboards for the company in Times Square. And also what's interesting is that Sydney Sweeney actually has equity in the company.

19:12So the company doing well, it's not just an endorsement deal here. It really behooves her financially for the company to do well. You said at the start that controversy seems to be Sydney Sweeney's M.O. Obviously, we can think back to last year. There was that American Eagle ad where she was talking about good genes, a pair of genes. But it was accused of promoting a sort of eugenics, white supremacy philosophy. Do you truly think that Sydney Sweeney seeks out controversy when she's thinking about which companies to tie herself to? I think she seeks out attention and she understands the power of eyeballs.

19:46And I mean, American Eagles executives even said on their earnings calls after that ad came out that they considered it a huge success and that it drove sales and really was behind their earnings that quarter. And so she also there's also an ad where Sydney was selling soap and she was kind of selling her bathwater and in the bathtub. So there's multiple things she's done. But I think it's the difference between sports and Hollywood. Like I think having a very sexual persona, like that's part of how she's chosen to present herself in Hollywood. And sports, especially women in sports, is so different.

20:19It's about achievement. It's about hard work. And that's just not where we are, I think. And it's how far we've come. Because if you think back to, for example, the early days of the WNBA where those athletes were really pressured to appeal to the male gaze and to present themselves as sexually appealing when that is not naturally a fit with what they were doing. And so it's just this disconnect between these two industries. Emma, where can we find more of your reporting? You can find my reporting in Fortune's Most Powerful Women daily newsletter on fortune.com and on my social media, Instagram and LinkedIn.

20:47And you can subscribe to the newsletter for free as well. Exactly. Emma, thank you so much. Thank you.

20:55Gracie Manchin, the residence of New York City's mayor, had two very special visitors last night. Mayor Mandani hosted President Trump. He also hosted our news editor, Katerina Giorno. And she joins us today to tell us what happened in Anatomy of a Deal. So Kat, you are freshly back from Gracie Mansion, where you witnessed this interesting, very interesting press conference yesterday, where President Trump and Mayor Mandani stood next to each other at a podium and seemed to play relatively nice. What were your key takeaways? I mean, that is the main point between the Zoran-Mandami and the Trump relationship, right?

21:31There happens to be some kind of public disagreement, but also when they're together, they tend to have a very nice relationship. It's very warm, it's very friendly, despite the fact there are large policy disagreements between the two of them. It's quite striking in these polarized times to see those two figures standing together on the lawn. Last week, it was in the headlines that President Trump has revoked press access for CNN, for MS Now and for Politico at the White House. This came up yesterday. What was your read on how Mamdani in particular handled it? Well, I mean, this is the big part, right?

22:02So I'm a member of the press, as we all are. We were all there on the lawn of Gracie Manchin. And one of my fellow colleagues at a different publication asked both of them this question. Hey, how do you guys feel about being here with all these members of the press, especially as Trump himself banned people from the White House, three publications? And Mamdani very briefly mentioned that he would tell Trump ahead of their meeting that he was inviting all members of the press. And then Trump, after that sentence, after Mamdami spoke, he said, well, you know what? I thought the press would boycott me, but they would never boycott me.

22:30And then he went down the typical spiel that he does. But the press actually did boycott him yesterday when, you know, the press pool was pretty empty yesterday when he was speaking on the tarmac about to board a plane. Have you seen that video where he couldn't, where he wasn't mic'd up because there was so much solidarity among all the other press people within DC? Even Fox News came out in support of the press organizations that had their access revoked. I mean, our job is to hold people accountable. So, I mean, this is the main point of having a job in journalism anyway. A hundred percent.

22:58This is anatomy of a deal. What did each of them want to get out of yesterday's press conference? So let's talk about Trump. Oh, yeah. What was in it for him? I mean, for him, it's mostly like he's coming back home. He's a native Queens. He hasn't been to Gracie Mansion in a few years and he's been invited by what he said, great and not so great mayors. So for him, quote, general, he was going back home. He's here for UNGA, for the UN. He's right now giving a talk and he's meeting with people. But also he wanted to show face to the mayor. The mayor invited Trump personally, he said, because the two of them have been chatting about how much he misses Gracie Manchin, his love for the White House of New York City, let's say.

23:36Trump misses Gracie Manchin. He said that he enjoyed coming there often. And he, again, has been invited in the past by previous great and not so great mayors. And so what did Mamdani get out of this? I know he had a few items on the docket that he wanted to speak to Trump about, one of them being affordable housing. Of course. So in Queens, in Sunnyside Yards, there is an idea to have 12 ,000 housing units, but it would require over$2 billion worth of federal funds. The city, again, does need to request the federal funds from Trump. Trump himself, he's had some previous history in Sunnyside because he used to own the New Jersey Generals.

24:08And he was trying to find a place to have an arena called the Trump Dome in Sunnyside Yards. That never panned out. But he also, again, has that Queens hubris that I do and that everyone else does. So he obviously wants to see his hometown, no matter how much he respects or disrespects or people vice versa with him. He wants to see his hometown flourish. Kat, thank you for joining us. Thank you. That's it for Fortune Daily. I'm Ellie Austin. Please remember to like our show, subscribe to it, and let us know in the comments what you thought about today's topics. We'll see you tomorrow. Great. Awesome.

24:44Bam, bam, bam. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. Thank you.