"AI Isn't Under Control": The Founder Solving a $20 Trillion Problem | Ep. 397 with Brandon Card CEO of Terzo AI

0:00Every company is basically putting$100 million of financial commitment into a SharePoint folder. This is ridiculous. And I was managing SpaceX. So I go to SpaceX's office and I knew they were talking about building Starlink and sending Teslas to Mars. And then I'm over here building a PowerPoint with 95 slides or contract data. I'm like, this doesn't make sense. Some of these contracts are like 300, 400 pages long. They can't go through this manually. When you're dealing with financial data, there's no room for error. So the only way to solve this is...

0:33Daniel Robbins:so brandon terzo terzo ai what is the importance of the name because i know you said there there is an importance of the name right and well what is what was who was brandon before terzo so i'm the same guy i've always been right they call me brandino because my mom's italian and i and you know a lot of my friends that are italian or from other countries love calling me brandino And my co-founder, Al, his father happened to be from Italy, around the same region that my mother's front, Roma. And when we were coming up with the name for Terzo, we were thinking about, how do we come up with a cool name that's not about the product?

1:09Because we might do AI today, but what if we do payments in the future? What if we do infrastructure? We need a name that's generic. And we thought, Tetsuo means third in Italian, and we're helping companies manage third-party relationships, third-party contracts. so we said oh terzo could be a cool name we thought about it like oracle right i started my career at oracle 16 years ago and i thought wow oracle they bought up like all these different companies they still have a powerful named oracle i thought terzo is a similar name and i really liked that name and it was italian it was fun and uh you know mom and mom was happy family was happy

1:42Daniel Robbins:but that's really where the origin story came from i love italy by the way like italian food that's right incredible that's actually why i like croatia i feel like croatia is like a mixture italian quarterly in greece it's like my two favorite places i love it there and it does it does there's something powerful about the name terzo like there is something i can see that the oracle effect all right it's fun so you you start the company what a wild time to start a company like i mean i could tell you the story i gotta tell you this okay tell me because i was here at sf i came to sf to meet with some friends and we also had a law firm up here that was helping us do the incorporation and we thought you know we'll go up to sf meet the team in person we'll follow the paperwork up there for terzo technologies incorporated out of delaware did all that paperwork it was march 13th 2020 when we're in that office here they were like there's gonna be a lockdown no one's gonna be able to come to the office because of this covet 19 virus and we were like okay we were kind of confused we went back to the hotel the hotel was also in lockdown we went to sfo flew from sfo back to lax there was no one at either airport and me and my co-founder al were like holy shit i've never been at an airport in the united states or anywhere where there's been no people and when we landed lax it was empty it felt like an apocalypse we were thinking ourselves i remember those days yeah we were thinking ourselves wait a second we just incorporated our company and we just got all excited about building this company and we literally like this is an apocalyptic scene no one's at lax the first time ever and we're thinking to ourselves like what in the hell does the future look like now and all the people we were recruiting to come on board were scrambling with their families and worried about obviously their you know personal lives it was a really tough time for us to get everyone focused and everyone went on zoom went home and kind of you know spent time wherever they came from visited family and friends same same with i i went home to visit my mom and dad in new york and we got on zooms 18 hours a day to build a company and i was thinking to myself like wow i didn't for i didn't foresee this coming but you know it was honestly a blessing because it was a distraction for us but i had a challenge keeping people focused because there's so much happening and death in families including my family and it was really hard to keep people focused on building back then but i think ultimately it made us a lot more resilient that's the wild thing about entrepreneurship like it is i tell people like keep a job keep a job keep a job like go get it my mom and dad are like are you sure you want to quit Microsoft right now after that you know like that stable amazing company are you sure you want to go off and do this and I'm like I'm sure but how would it be crazy or I was crazy you didn't know I'm crazy yeah that's that's the thing you all knew I was crazy so she's like okay like I know you want to start your own I started my own company that's like 17 in her basement right so I was like wow this is really nerve-wracking I can tell you I had anxiety and I was a little nervous but I was like you know what I already made this commitment in my head i'm gonna figure this out i'm gonna do whatever it takes and it was a very tough time mentally for myself my co-founders for our whole ecosystem and you know it was a really interesting time in history i think none of us will ever forget that i think there's something i'm finding now with ai specifically that a lot of people create a business but they're not really solving like a problem like they're solving a problem that's been solved yeah and they're solving a problem that 350 ,000 other people are solving the same problem.

5:08Daniel Robbins:How did you come up with the idea around that this is the problem and that really no one has really solved it? Yeah. Well, the thing is, is that I was part of the problem every day. I worked with the biggest companies in the world when I was at Microsoft for five years. They complained to me about this problem every single day. So it's not like I came up with this genius idea out of the clear blue sky, right? I was brought this problem by our customers and they would complain about the Microsoft contracts to me almost every day. And oftentimes it asked me if I had the contract because they wouldn't have access to the contract and they'd lose it.

5:40So I was constantly looking up the contract details, asking Microsoft legal to get me the most version, most recent version of the contract to give it to my customers. So I knew this was a problem because I was in the trenches with these customers. I always asked them, like, I thought there was a CLM category. Like, aren't you supposed to have a contract lifecycle management tool? They're like, oh yeah, well, legal use that. We don't touch that. We're in procurement and finance or it. So I was like, wait a second. There's this huge category called CLM, but I never run into a CLM. And I kid you not, Dan, I was doing a$100 million contract with one of the biggest auto companies in the world.

6:13And I said to them, hey, question for you, a weird question. After you sign this$100 million contract, where are you putting it? And they said, what do you mean? I said, where are you putting the PDF document that you get on a DocuSign? They said, in a SharePoint folder. And that was the moment I was like, wait a second. every company is basically putting a hundred million dollars of financial commitment into a sharepoint folder this is ridiculous this is so broken and i thought we got to go solve this so after many years of hearing these problems i thought i know there's no solution in the market and you know with all due respect the clm category was built by lawyers for lawyers to do drafting and workflow it's a whole different set of use cases than what we're working on so i was very adamant and very confident and no one's solving this problem no one even understands this problem and i went up to microsoft leadership and i said is this a problem at microsoft and they're like absolutely we're building something in-house to solve it and that's when i knew nothing was out there because microsoft would go out and buy sap or oracle if they already had it would have already had it so microsoft in my opinion the best leadership team in the world i'm nothing but love and respect for that leadership team and i thought wait if microsoft's building it in-house everyone's gonna have to build it in-house we're gonna go build it for the fortune 500 and that was you know the moment i went and started pitching to my founders and the early employees about this problem and they were like are you sure about this problem i said listen i live this every single day and i can tell you no one solved it and now people are finally catching on people are starting to copy us obviously uh six years later but you know i think it's a good thing it just validates the size of the market and this is uh you know this is a literally a 10 to 20 trillion dollar problem so you know we believe there's gonna be a lot of players in the space but we know we're first and we believe we're gonna be the best at solving it

7:59Daniel Robbins:you had a head start that's good i think i think that's the smartest thing that i've heard from from founders like the most successful people is they experience the problem clients have the problem because if you create something and no one else has the problem how are you gonna get any clients i have to tell you this because this is true i remember being in my office at home frustrated because my client this auto company that everyone knows asked me to build a power point presentation of all their microsoft contracts they have in every country and i thought to myself this is ridiculous this is so insane and i built it basically would copy like a screenshot into every slide and then like you put the description in the slide of hey this is your contract in europe this is your contract in mexico is your contract in japan and i was thinking to myself this is the best way to do this in 2018 this is insane we have like and i was managing spacex so i go to spacex's office and i knew they were talking about building starlink and sending teslas to mars so i'm like okay i'm in meetings over here talking about sending teslas to mars and then i'm over here building a powerpoint with 95 slides for contract data i'm like this doesn't make sense you know perfect storm for you yeah it was the perfect start i was like this is It was amazing.

9:11And I was sitting in LA traffic, probably like you, a lot on the 405. You know, I was always in LA traffic going for meetings, Orange County, San Diego. Sitting there staring at my dashboard thinking to myself, I got to solve this problem.

9:22Daniel Robbins:I got to solve this problem. And it would constantly come to my head like, how is this right in front of me? How am I so fortunate to have this problem right in front of me and not do anything about it? I got to take this chance. I got to take this risk. You know, and I was a young guy, no wife, no kids, perfect opportunity to do it. And timing is very important in life. seems timing can almost be everything so you you create it you start it you you're going all in how did you get the first enterprise clients because i'm guessing enterprise is would enterprise be your client and oh yeah i've seen fortune 500 i honestly even fortune 100 is our primary customer base like the biggest companies in the world are turzo customers was that is that a long because i've heard it's a long cycle very long for that very long so how how is that in the process this in the beginning you know one of our first customers believe it or not that we got is home depot and we reached out to them cold we had no relationships there we reached out to a few team members there and we said hey we came up with this idea we're solving this contract problem we think we might be able to help you with your vendor contracts i'm not sure if this is a problem for you but love to share our vision and what we're building and hear if you just want to give us some feedback and luckily the gentleman there was a maverick innovator and he said hey i'd love to hear what you guys are working on and we brought the idea to him and he said this is very interesting i do all this stuff manually in the spreadsheet so we said hey what if we did a proof of concept together very inexpensive and we could test this out and home depot ended up being one of our first ai customers helping us test all cold now that was very rare we were excited about that because we loved the hunt and chase of like getting a cold deal but we also got into one of the largest financial transaction processors in the world through our relationships.

11:05And then from there, we use a lot of our relationships in our network to get into these big enterprises. And that was really the challenge that we took on that, you know, quite frankly, with all due respect, Silicon Valley startups don't do. Silicon Valley startups, even the best tech companies in the world, they're not starting the Fortune 100. They're starting SMB mid-market, selling to all their friends they went to Stanford with, doing 5K deals, 7K deals, credit card swipes all day, right? Totally fine. we took a very different approach we said we're going to go in and get master services agreements with the biggest companies in the world and we're going to get approved to sell to them which means you have a sock one sock two gdpr all these security requirements iso 27001 before you go and sell your product so i had to convince investors that hey we can go sell the fortune 100 if we can get past their onboarding process the investors looked at me like why the hell would you start with a fortune 100 are you crazy i'm like well that's the world i grew up in so you know i started to work all how they think i know how they think i worked with them my whole life

12:06Daniel Robbins:i know i know how they operate i know how complex they are i know how siloed they are it makes from the outside looking in it might not make sense but from you it makes total sense because you're in the mind of the people yeah of the problem you're solving for i worked with those people every day and the thing is like me i'm a guy that when i do something i go all in i don't do anything half-assed. I go all in when I work with people and I really cared about my customers' problems because they were my friends. I had dinner with these people every week. I talked to them on the phone three, four times a day.

12:34These are really important partners to me. And in order for me to be successful or my team to be successful, they had to be successful first. So I had a lot of empathy for the pain. And I really started to understand how much pain they were going through trying to manage$50 billion a year of supplier spend with no data, with no tools. I was like, how the hell are you going to do this? So I really had that empathy to go in there and I felt really passionate about solving this problem. And that made all the difference in the world because don't get me wrong. I have some really brilliant ideas, but I don't have any experience in the space.

13:09I have a million like healthcare fitness ideas, but I'm not an expert in healthcare and

13:13Daniel Robbins:I haven't worked in healthcare. You know how it gets mad at me. She's like, don't tell me another idea. I have so many great ideas, but I'm like, I don't know if I can execute this. I have no experience i have no idea how this world works right and i think what you know right stick to what you know i've also failed a lot in my life too when i was younger i was always building stuff when i was young high school college always working on stuff and just you know just swinging for the fences and seeing what happens just playing ball and striking out and i realized wow if you don't work in the industry day to day and i was lucky enough to start my career at oracle right out of undergrad and i got a great training program at oracle i had great management there great leadership there.

13:48I learned so much at a young age. And then I went to IBM cloud, IBM Watson, and I was 25. I went to Microsoft at 27. So by the time I was 30, I already worked at Oracle, IBM, and Microsoft. I had a great understanding of the enterprise. And I thought that was my IP. And I would talk to investors about it. And I'm saying, look, you know, I know problems exist and other people don't even have a clue about. So that was really the difference was being in the trenches. And that was actually the reason why I wanted to go work for those big tech companies. I wanted to get that exposure. I wanted to get that education.

14:20And I wanted to get that knowledge out of doing those complex projects. And that's really what I, you know, that was my goal early on. Because I never wanted to be like a corporate VP. I always thought to myself, like, I'm going to run my own company.

14:32Daniel Robbins:It's just a matter of what. I'm a huge proponent of work in a company, work in corporations, and then start a business because the learning. Or go work in a business. You want to be in a certain business. Go work in a business that's in that because you learn so much about the things you should do things you shouldn't do and then also you learn the real problems firsthand versus guessing so what what was a moment for you where you just like you woke up and you're like wow like this is this is the thing this is it like this is going to be huge i can tell you it was 2021 we were working with companies like home depot and big banks also a huge health care insurance company and i was looking at their contract data because they were obviously were working on these complex projects together and some of these contracts were like 300 400 pages long and they signed thousands of them literally thousands of them so i'm like even if you have an army of a thousand employees two thousand employees they can't go through this manually it's just too much data the scale is too big so the only way to solve this is with ai for the world it's the only way this can be solved like companies can't hire enough people to do this that was the moment where i was like i know it's worth going all in on ai i know i'm going to go meet with every investor and tell them i need 30 million dollars to go build this ai and go hire phds to build the ai i know this is the right track because everyone in the enterprise needs to do this with automation and ai it's impossible to do it all with humans and that was really the moment where i thought okay i feel confident going to all investors give us this investment the series a we you know go build more we got the seed round done too but the series a was really where we could go put real money behind the tech and we need to go build an enterprise scalable secure platform we need to hire top notch engineers who have a lot of experience and phds and these these you know employees are really expensive and this was before any of the llms came out this is like before the ai boom of yeah like Like, back then it was, like, crypto and stuff.

16:36Daniel Robbins:It was crypto and metaverse. I mean, metaverse. Metaverse. Metaverse. Everyone's like, hey, everyone's hot. Yeah, I was in Miami during COVID, right? Everyone's like, oh, you know, Facebook changed your name to Meta. Everything's about the metaverse. Everyone's going to be living in this digital world. Then we get NFTs. People are buying NFTs, monkey NFTs for$5 million. I was like, this is all junk. I'm sorry, but, like, I see these fads come and go all the time. And everyone jumps on the hype train all the time. And I thought, this is a problem. It's a fundamental problem. It's not sexy. first one to admit it's not sexy but it's a real problem that's costing companies billions of dollars i know this is gonna be a problem for the next decade unsexy i think are the best like it seems like it's like i became a billionaire through a sexy bit it's always like i know billionaires from recycling scraps i mean it's always utilities right larry ellison obviously one of the biggest beasts of all time who i have nothing but respect for and obviously you know i look up to him and what he's been able to do he built everything off the database he built everything off the database and went out and acquired more companies was the foundation was the database and foundation is unsecured and we're the contract database so i look at this as oracle got the sequel database yeah we're building the contract database and where we can go with this in the future is huge but yeah everyone loves the sexy fun stuff and don't get me wrong i love space i love you know all this cool stuff they're talking about that you know fun vr ar agents all this stuff right but it's all flash in the pan stuff and people people get excited about it and then boom it disappears that's that's my thing we're at human x and i walked on to all other companies and i can't help but think in a year two years i don't think they'll exist like i'm like any llm can just copy what they're doing in five second rapper and they're all rappers and they're all like it's going to destroy most of it yeah i'm like i'm like where's the profit mark it's crazy i don't know you're all paying open ai you're all paying claude to do all everything that you're you know to do all your compute it's just you're putting a cool ui and ux on top of code it's just and they're going to be fighting as everyone else is doing the same thing so humans we were talking earlier about humans right we still use a lot of humans it seems like most people are like how can i use ai and robotics to replace every human that's the feeling i get you have a different approach and feeling on things yeah hybrid approach we want to amplify humans with ai we do think there are some jobs of course that could be fully replaced with ai and there's no need for the human element but when you're talking about finance you're talking about money really important decisions audits compliance reporting publicly traded companies you can't 100 trust ai that human element is critical right now right i'll give you a perfect example and i love claude by the way and i love they're all fantastic i use them every day but here's the thing with claude and we've tested this over and over same thing with open ai if you give claude an MSA, a master services agreement, it's a million dollars.

19:31And then there's an invoice against that master service agreement for a million dollars. And there's a purchase order against that invoice for a million dollars. Claude thinks that's$3 million. That's actually$1 million. Those three documents are all the same $1 million commitment underneath the master. But things are not contextualized in the LLM. Makes sense. That's where Terzo comes in and plays. So when you're dealing with financial data, there's no room for error. That's why we believe that this human-in-the-loop review process with anomaly detection, making sure that we're QAing the data for our customers so they can trust the data, and our data is at 99.9 % accuracy, that's why we're in business.

20:08And the reason why we are at 99 % accuracy is because we knew that we needed to have humans that were highly trained using the AI that we built and making that the proprietary process, bringing humans and AI together, and that's what we pioneered in 2021 and 22. I believe we're one of the best companies in the world of that. Visionary. And I think it's critical.

20:32Daniel Robbins:You're a visionary. Yeah, and I think that honestly back then people were like, whoa, you won't need humans in the loop. You don't need humans. Agents are going to do all of this. And I said, well, not when you're dealing with financial data. If I'm writing an email to Dan, I can afford to have an error. If I'm writing a simple email, hey, write an email to Dan about us having a podcast at HumanX. Okay, cool. There's no pre-percussions for having errors. If I'm reporting to the DOJ and my data is 94 % accurate, I'm screwed. So that is the space we play in. And when it comes to this financial reporting and the analysis and the payments, you can't be off by 1%.

21:09So that's why we believe that there is going to be a future with humans in the loop. And we're going to amplify the humans. And we're going to make humans extremely efficient. And you know what I love about Jensen? Jensen made a comment recently that if you're getting rid of all your employees, you don't have any new ideas. He's right, though. Like, make your employees 10 times more productive and go build new stuff. Because we think, okay, we have 45 engineers right now. Just because AI is powerful, we're not going to go lay off 20 engineers. We're going to make those 45 engineers use Claude Code and burn as many tokens as possible and go build stuff faster than everyone else.

21:42So that's how we think about it, right? Let's amplify our team. Let's use AI to make our team 10 times more productive, 100 times more productive.

21:50Daniel Robbins:Every time I ask for a new idea for AI, it just tells me what I want to hear. So you're right. Like, I've had to recently tell my team, I'm like, you guys have to check. Yeah. Like, because they weren't checking things. And we're not dealing with financial stuff. But I'm like, you guys, you got to check things. Like, we assume like the AI is 100 % correct and it knows everything. And I'm like, you really have to check. Like, it's not life or death situation for us. But I'm like, still, it doesn't look good. and it's not accurate i'm not a phd in computer science although i worked in you know tech my entire life i'm an honor i'm an honorary engineer right i understand how the tech works my opinion people can disagree with me all they want but i don't think any of these llms are actually under control i just don't how the models are are like building themselves they're literally going off on their own in their own world how can you govern and control that and you look at all these foundational companies all their heads of safety left yeah why because they know that the models just kind of have a brain of their own yeah and they're going to act how are humans going to lock these things down you can't even turn them off right so it's it's very interesting right now that's the point we had an ai safety expert on before and he said the people building right now don't know how it actually works and no one knows how it works and he's we're like best exactly so something that i'm i'm very passionate about which i know you are too is is mental health yes and i know gemini just released something i think it was today as we're recording this about uh about the ability to if you're not feeling well in gemini you it'll actually connect you to a hotline something which i think is unique it's great you have you know the the ai chat bots that companions which i think there's like you know it like can destroy your mental health yeah i think it better they want to be too reliant right I don't even know.

23:35Daniel Robbins:I don't know if it's the worst thing or the best thing for humanity. It's very hard to say. But what are you seeing in terms of how can AI better mental health? I think there's a lot of opportunity. Just like with social media, right? It can be a blessing and a curse at the same time if you let it consume you. And I think if you're too reliant on AI or people are using ChatGPT for their therapists, right? They're talking about their relationships. They're talking about how they feel. I think you have to be careful because if it gives you the wrong information, you don't want to take that to heart.

24:04and you don't want to take it too serious because you never know what these models are interpreting and how they're going to behave. But at the same time, I do believe that people can at least vent and feel comfortable and confidential and be able to tell NAI how they're feeling and get a response back. I think it gives people some type of release to do that. And that's positive for people to share how they're feeling, to type out how you're feeling. Just like journaling, right? If you journal and write out how you feel today, it actually gives you a sense of relief. I think it's a positive versus keeping it inside and holding it in your body and holding it in your organs.

24:39So I think AI can help humans a lot on the mental health side when it comes to the therapy and being able to, you know, find ways to improve their overall lifestyle or, you know, improve their nutrition or sleep better or, you know, work out, all those types of things. I think they have unlimited information now, which could benefit people like us, right? And you can get a lot of information for free really quickly, which before you had to pay personal trainers and nutritionists a lot of money. So I think access to that free information is a beautiful thing. But at the same time, we have to be careful, right?

25:09Because we're becoming too robotic. Everything we do, right? We got email. We got our Slack. We got an Instagram. We're on X. We're on all these channels. And we have to get back to the human element. We have to get back to community. And one thing I always talk about with the foundation we started on the side, right? and I talk about with the TourZone employees too, is that we have to get back in person and enjoy energy with our teammates and go out and have fun and listen to great music and eat good food and drink good wine and dance and have a grand old time and really get that personal touch because that is what humans thrive on.

25:48And we can't forget about that. And I think that we over-rotate too hard into this digital world, especially Gen Z. Thank God I'm a millennial because I see how Gen Z acts. And honestly, I'm scared for that generation because they're almost cyborgs at this point. But we need to balance ourselves out and we need to put the phones away. We need to go out and laugh and talk and, you know, get out in nature and go to the beach and go hiking and do all these things and balance our central nervous systems out. I think that's very important. And I preach about this all the time. And one thing we do at Terzo, I think other companies are starting to do this too, you know, but we're a huge, huge proponent of throwing events, having music, having, you know, really cool lights and really cool, just like, you know, experiences.

26:34And we've done this in Miami. We've also done this in Amsterdam. We're going to do this probably in Ibiza this year. We love bringing people together. Not to talk about Terzo. I'll see you there. You're welcome to come because we just want to have fun. We wish I'd say let's get 300 people together.

26:48Daniel Robbins:I've never been to Ibiza. Let's have a blast. I'm gonna go oh you'll have a blast of the bees you come to Miami one of our parties right we just we have I like that great people in the room it ended up breaking through shots together exactly I hope that I hope more people I hope more founders executives learn because we we are social media makes us unsocial or non-social internet has driven us further away crazy and as you know like mental health I've challenged things I've had you know I've been challenged myself i know many people have committed suicide and such and such and many young men and it's really heard about the many young men you're speaking on behalf of them because i went through the same things and even it doesn't matter if you're successful it doesn't matter if you're strong doesn't matter if you come from a great family everyone has their highs and lows you know i talk about this all the time right we're all human we all have these human experiences and we're all going to get knocked down and it's about having a great support system to help you get back up right and i think that there's a ton of opportunity and when i look at you know some of the data because i'm obviously a data-driven guy i look at some of the data about you know let's just call it gen z and the one thing is they're healthy because they're not drinking as much which is great and overall i think they're not as obese they're probably eating more healthy they're more conscious about the food they're eating but then i look at the mental health rates and it's 4x you know worse than even the millennial yeah it's like a one-side healthy and on side unhealthy because because they're staying we laugh about this as something like body healthy but mentally not healthy right so so i always question my friends because we you know we go out and we'll have a glass of wine or we'll go out and grab whatever an old-fashioned and i think to myself am i better off mentally staying at home on the couch by myself and not drinking or am i better off than going to have two glasses of wine with dan and laughing and talking is that alcohol really going to ruin me the two glasses they drink wine they live longer because they're socializing because they're part of their community, right?

28:41They have a purpose. They have a great sense of community. And honestly, I think that's the most underrated thing in our world is having a strong community. It doesn't have to be your family or your wife or your husband, friends, coworkers, people you really love being around, people who don't drain you, people who make you feel a sense of happiness and enjoyment. That, for me, is critical while we get into this AI world and everything's going to be robots. We have to also spend a lot of time and effort, and I'm going to roll this out with our HR, department once we get our series b done i'm gonna mandate people take a certain amount of time off and do retreats and and go off and spend time in nature and get away from the screen and get away from their phones and maybe do a detox digital detox i think that is going to be the key to having you know a actual long-term success versus being you know uh you know uh overnight success and then selling the company we want to be around for the next 25 years how are we going to do that consistency stability constant balance and it's not easy so i will live to 150 we need

29:47Daniel Robbins:flip phones so i know i i know brandon you're you're you just entered your series b here at human x right now so many exciting things happening perfect time people want to get in touch with you how can they do so i'm pretty active on linkedin honestly i'm on linkedin every day but people get in touch with me mostly through linkedin or b card at terzo cloud typically i'm pretty responsive on email i'm on it but we're excited about the series b we're very excited about changing this perception that contracts are legal documents and helping the world treat contracts like financial assets because that's what they are and we want to pioneer this space want to go raise a healthy round of capital go hire the best people selfishly i've been trying to hire a lot of my ex-microsoft teammates i want them to come on board and we also want to put a lot of money into community events, right?

30:35It's not just about one thing I'll tell Series B investors and I'll tell you too. This is who I am. We are high performers and we are worried about revenue and we are worried about customers. We are worried about profit margins and all those things, but it's not the only thing we're worried about. We're worried about building a strong community. We're worried about treating people right. We're worried about being kind. We're worried about making the world a better place. And that's important for us overall. We don't want to just be a company that's winning deals with customers and making revenue we want to impact the community want to impact the world and on a small scale we've been able to do that and it's about leadership right it's about leading these young kids about leading you know these people that need hope they need they need people

31:16Daniel Robbins:to look up to they need mentors a lot of founders can learn from you a lot of founders now are thinking about the profit they're thinking about the quick exit they're not necessarily thinking about longevity and things like that which this will make a world better place but thank you so much for joining us by the way. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure and I hope we get to do this again. Thanks a lot.