Mark Manson: The Subtle Art of Building a 20 Million Copy Empire | Ep. 337

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1:26Sorry, got a little carried away there. Another reason to choose old National Bank. Get old. Member FDIC.

1:37Happy birthday. Thank you. By the way. Thank you. Also, 84, right? Yeah. Me too. Oh, no kidding. So we were talking earlier about how when we were kids, or maybe depending on the age, right? Because 90s is all the rage right now. Dial up internet. Yes. I mean, that noise, the sound, the inability to really even have speed when you search. What do you think about when you go nostalgia about the 90s? What comes to mind? Nostalgic about the 90s? I think about like actually those old computer games like Quake and Starcraft, Warcraft, like actually having to used to have to manually type in the IP of the server to like join a game.

2:20and so there were these websites that had server lists and there were just lists of IPs and how many people were playing at a certain moment. And it's, yeah, it was very old school. It was very like nuts and bolts. Things fell apart, didn't work half the time. And of course the internet connection was awful. So you would drop in half the games, but yeah, great memories. You know what? We might've played each other because I was a big nerd in those games. And the same thing, I was always causing chaos in the chats. I would pretend to be somebody else in the chats. Of course. Little did we know.

2:56Yeah. But when I read your book 10 years ago, which I think is the 10-year anniversary. It's coming up in about six months, yeah. Incredible. I mean, how does that feel? Like thinking of 10 years. It makes me feel old, almost as old as the birthday. um actually what's what's gotten weird is um i've started getting you know i get stopped by fans occasionally and what is what has gotten weird is that people people will stop me and they're like oh i read your book when i was a freshman in high school and i'm like this is like a grown man in front of me with like a kid and i'm like oh my god i'm getting old so it's uh yeah i'm and also um people in my youtube comments have started calling me unk so that i think that's how you know I mean, I've got some gray hair.

3:44Wisdom. My beard's getting a little white. But when the YouTube comments start calling you unk, that's how you know. I know. I thought I had blonde hair in my beard. My wife's the other day is like, it's not blonde. This is white. That's gray. I'm like, what? There's gray? I can't see it. It's on the side. How am I supposed to? We're getting unk. We're getting old. Oh, yeah, we are. We are. I don't know if I want to be sad. But so 10 years ago, your book stood out for me, The Subtle Art, because I have a lot of challenges with control and also caring. Yeah. I don't necessarily care what people think.

4:21Right. But online, when people write something, for some reason, I really cared. It bothers me. So for many years, I stayed away from even doing anything online. Right. How do you deal with that? Are you talking about people like haters in the comments or are you just talking about like idiots online posting? Both. Okay. And all of it to me makes me anxious. Yeah. Well, the haters problem, I think a certain percentage of it is just desensitization. Like it's the hate that you get online is very much proportional to your impact and your reach. So I just kind of the same way in like, I don't know, you know, there's like a fail rate in manufacturing.

5:04Like you just always know that 1 % of your product is going to come out wrong. Like I think online, it's just understanding that 1 % of the comments is always going to hate you. And that's just a fact. That's just, that just comes with the territory. So I think understanding that, internalizing it, and then just developing kind of the scar tissue to like not engage and not try to argue. and to stop reading them. The harder thing, I think, is when you see a bunch of, like, idiots or misinformation or people stirring up drama or whatever on social media. That, like, I personally subscribe to the idea and I prescribe the idea of, like, viciously curating your own feeds, like taking responsibility for your own feeds and understanding that like if somebody is posting something on x or tiktok or whatever and it's pissing you off or making you feel really bad don't engage with it don't engage because if you comment if you try to start an argument if you send it to a friend you're like can you believe how stupid this person is what you're doing is you're signaling to the algorithm a lot of people look good on paper but when you're hiring you want more than a polished resume.

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6:54Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day. Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash audio. That's ziprecruiter.com slash audio. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter. that that's what gets you to engage and stay on the platform. And so it's going to keep serving you that stuff that makes you upset. So I try to be hyper aware of like, okay, how is this content making me feel? Is it adding something to my life? And if it's not, then I'm very aggressive about either blocking the person, muting the piece of content, or most platforms these days, they have an option.

7:35You can, like if you click on the three dots, you can select not interested in this. Yep. I'm starting to wonder if social media was the greatest thing for humanity or the worst thing for humanity. It's probably neither. As with most things, it's probably neither. I mean, I talk about being old, right? Like, I think one of the benefits of being our age, being our generation, is you remember what was great about social media. Like I remember the first time I got on Facebook, I was on it until like four in the morning. I could not pull myself away from it. It was so absolutely incredible. Mind-blowing.

8:16I was looking up like all the people I went to high school with. It was incredible. So I think like just the connectivity, we take it for granted today. Like we take it for granted the fact that like you could get on right now and look up a guy you went to high school with and haven't talked to in 15 years and reach out to him. Right. Like that used to be impossible, completely impossible back, back, back in our day. Right. So there is, there is something incredible about that. And there is something incredible about like finding like-minded individuals and reconnecting with people and keeping tabs on people, like knowing when they got married or they've had a kid or whatever.

8:55There is a lot of value in that that gets missed. But there's, there's, yeah, there's just, there's a lot of garbage out there. I remember when I had my space, don't stop believing was the last song that I had on my space. And I think he used to have the faith, the five, like the five people or 10 people. And if you switch somebody out, they were like, so angry at you. Like T-Mobile used to have the five faves. They're like, I'm not a fave.

9:24Obviously you've been able to leverage social media massively. Yeah. Like hugely. How was the transition from, I know you had subtle art. You also had a book before that and a blog, right? Subtle art 2000 was at 2016, 16. Yeah. So 2016 social media is, you know, coming up, you know, things were coming up. How did you transition that into the social media empire and the content creation empire you have? oh man it's you know there's there's kind of phases to that question so let me let me let me kind of take it one by one i i would actually divide my career up in online content to kind of three three phases so i started blogging like 2008 2009 my first business i tried to start a number i read tim ferris's book four hour work week in 2008 started creating websites online businesses a bunch of different things tried to do affiliate marketing e-commerce like all sorts of stuff and the one that kind of hit and stuck was um uh dating advice dating relationship advice and initially it was affiliate promotions but then eventually once i've you know the blog started to catch on um i started to sell my own info products and i did that for a number of years and i was doing coaching and it was just like very hard to scale and grow and build audience Like back then you, you literally had to reach out to other bloggers and convince them to link to you.

10:54I remember the back linking. Yeah. It would be like back for link. Exactly. It'd be like, Hey man, I'll write a post about you. If you write a post about me or like, I'll put you in my sidebar if you put me in your, you know, and it was very arduous and like slow. And a lot of it involved like networking. And then Facebook released the newsfeed. I want to say 2011. and I think like if my first big break in my career was recognizing early I think earlier than most what Facebook was trying to do which is that it was trying to compete with like Google or the New York Times to like become everybody's home page on the internet and they were doing that by like really pushing publication, like published articles and, um, different publications very aggressively on the people's news feeds.

11:46And so I looked at it and I was like, you know, if I kind of wrote a really good title with like some good copywriting and had like a interesting image, I bet I could get shared a bunch. I bet like Facebook will kind of push me to a lot of people. And so sure enough, I had from like 2012 to 2015, I had probably 10 or 15 articles go super viral, like millions and millions of shares. And one of those, the biggest one, the one that went most viral was an article called the subtle art of not giving a fuck. And it had a picture of a kitten with an explosion behind it. And the kittens like calmly walking away from the explosion.

12:22Cat things go crazy. Dude, it was, it was, it was, it was a magic formula. And it, it, I think it did something like, I think it did 6 million page views in like the first day or something like that. Just like absurd numbers. It kept crashing my website. It was a whole thing. And so then that is what opened up the opportunity for the book deal. And I got an agent. I went and got a publishing deal. And then that's how the book happened. Now, what's interesting is that back in those days, the roadmap or the playbook was like, you get big on the internet. So you can go get a deal in conventional media, right?

13:06So there were like YouTubers who were using YouTube to like get on the TV shows. And there were musicians that were, you know, posting on Bandcamp to get record deals. And I think my generation of bloggers, like you can look at people like me and James Clear and Ryan Holiday, like what we were doing is we built these massive blog audiences and then that got us book deals. And so the idea was that like once you get your foot in the door and you're like, okay, now I'm a published author. Now I'm a bestseller. Like now you're just an author. Like you don't have to do that stupid internet stuff anymore.

13:44And that was kind of my attitude for the next few years. I did a bunch of book deals. I did a movie deal. Did a couple TV deals that never got made. But in my head, I'm like, okay, I'm like I'm an author, screenwriter, whatever, producer now. Don't have to do this internet stuff. when those projects ran out then the pandemic happens and everybody goes online and online content just like goes there's a bonanza of online content and it was around that time i looked around and i was like you know what i actually a i actually missed the content game and then b i actually think this is where more more of the opportunity is uh because i just spent five years with traditional media companies, publishers, movie studios, uh, Hollywood production companies.

14:38And they're all so fucking slow and incompetent. And like, like I remember getting on a marketing call for, so we did a, uh, a low budget documentary film called the subtle or not giving a fuck with, with universal studios. And I remember getting on the marketing call with the Universal Studios marketing team. And they couldn't tell me when it was coming out because it was different in every country. They couldn't tell me what platform it was going to be on because it was going to be different in every country. They couldn't tell me, like they had, their marketing campaign was basically just incomprehensible.

15:15Like essentially what it boiled down to an hour long call with like nine people, what it boiled down to was, Mark, can you post about this on Instagram? Like that was essentially what everything kept coming back to is like, well, if you post it on Instagram, we'll figure it out. And I was like, damn, like, it feels like they're just paying for my Instagram account. Like that's kind of all they're interested in. And so it got me thinking and it got me like looking back at the kind of the online content ecosystem. And I realized that like, I missed it. Like that's actually, that's my roots. I miss being entrepreneurial.

15:51I miss having my own team. I miss making my own content, not having a gatekeeper, controlling my own fate. So in 2022, I kind of came back to this world, launched a YouTube channel, a podcast, started scaling content on every platform. And that's what I'm doing today. It's incredible now we can control that. It used to be, like you're saying, if you want to be a musician, you got to get a deal. 1.001 % get a deal or even a book deal, a movie. These things were only for the very few people. Now you post something online. Overnight, like your blog, you might become something, the thing that you wanted to become.

16:35When did you realize that this is a business in itself? I think I realized it when Mr. B started to really take off. I remember I discovered him, I think, I want to say 2018, 2019. And I just remember being like, wow, this kid's brilliant. This is so cool. But I think it was like 2021 or something. He went from, I think, like maybe 20 million subscribers to like 100 million in a year. And he was just doing stupid amounts of money and like getting hundreds of millions of views on his videos. And I remember, and it was right after I had just done a bunch of the movie and TV stuff and was pretty dissatisfied with it.

17:18And I remember sitting there and like sitting down and doing the math of like, okay, how many views is this guy getting? What's his reach? How many views does like a typical TV show get, a sitcom or whatever? And then kind of doing back, like working backwards, doing some research into just where is everybody's eyeballs going? And sure enough, if you do the research, it's like TV is dying. Most streaming platforms are losing money. Hollywood is just hemorrhaging money all over the place. People don't go to the movies anymore. They don't want to spend money on movies. People are spending all their time online, you know, and then you see it.

17:57You look on the flip side online and it's like YouTube is now the biggest media company in the world. Podcasts are growing at like just absurd rates. And people are spending more and more time on social platforms. So I just kind of like read the tea leaves and I was like, okay, if I'm going to be creating content for the next 20 years, like which door am I going to pick? Right. And because now I have the resume and the experience to like do either. But like where am I going to place my chips and put in the bed? So it is funny. It's a total reversal to like back when I remember when I did my publishing deal, it was really unconventional for a blogger to get a big book deal.

18:39like it was it was kind of like a little bit of a salacious headline within the publishing industry now it's the reverse now it's like now i i meet all these like professors and phds and tv personalities who are like trying to get a book deal but like they can't get a book contract because they don't have a social following it's kind of crazy i know i have a lot of friends who like but i'm the world leading expert in xyz and i can't get a book deal because they were asking me about we we just launched with penguin yeah our book a couple months ago and i'm like look unfortunately this is how it is fortunately it also kind of democratizes the ability for more voices to get out there but that also leads to more competition yeah you going up against more people i think there's a really interesting uh change that i'm seeing around the expertise like we're saying where it used to be if you're a content creator you talk about something you may not have really like a lot of expertise in it but you're just talking about it and you might be the only one i feel like there's a new push towards people like yourself who have extensive experience in it right where people are like okay i like this person who doesn't really have experience but they have a following but then i see this other person who has phd who's you know like you're saying established in it for 10 12 15 years and wow you know i i think i want to listen to them.

20:03Yeah. It's interesting. I think in the content world, you have, there's kind of two types of authority. One is kind of the classic credentialed authority, like, okay, you're a Harvard professor and you are the world's leading expert on studying motivation or whatever, right? So it's like, okay, I'm going to listen to you. And that's been around forever. But there's, the internet has kind of created this new form of authority, which I would kind of say is epitomized by like a Joe Rogan or something, which is, which is the, I'm going to learn with you, right? Like I'm not an expert. I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, but I'm really curious.

20:38And I'm going to put a lot of time into this and I'm going to document it as I go. So let me talk to the experts. Let me, uh, dig into the research and try to figure something out. Let me go read 10 books and come back and tell you what I learned about it or like, what are the five things that you need to know. And so you see a lot of really big social media figures or podcasters or YouTubers who are like, it's the learn with me crowd. And I think wires get crossed sometimes. Like you'll see somebody like Rogan get criticized all the time in traditional media because they're like, it's just, he's an idiot comedian.

21:13He doesn't know what he's talking. Well, it's like, yeah, that's the appeal. That's the appeal. Cause it's like his listeners get to be curious along with him. And they get to, like, he's going to ask the exact same questions that a completely uninformed person is going to ask. So like, that is why people listen. And it's, it is, it's interesting though, because I think if you are that credentialed expert, it can, it can feel incredibly frustrating. It's like, okay, this guy who knows nothing has 10 times the audience I do. I'll never forget. Do you remember Clubhouse? Yes. So one day I was on Clubhouse and I was listening to this room about this topic and it was kind of idiotic.

21:56And there was a lot of thousands of people were listening. Then I went to this room. It was like 20 Harvard professors and there was like 20 people listening to these 20 people. Right. And at that moment, I realized this is like 2021. I'm like, this is this is fascinating to me. Like, I can't believe the the how far it doesn't even make any sense. sometimes. I'm like, but I think there is a, I think there's a recent transition though. I, at least I feel like, yeah, I'd say the last five years, professors are like rock stars now. I, I like to say, well, the funny thing is, is like, so this is the interesting thing is that I would say in the last few years, the professors, the CEOs, uh, you know, the former politicians, like they're figuring out the game, right?

22:43It's it, Gavin Newsom just launched a podcast. Like Like, they're figuring this out. And I'm seeing it all the time. Like, I was actually on YouTube the other day, and there was this guy. It was, like, an MIT professor. And he was, like, a private equity billionaire. And he started a YouTube channel. And he had, like, really well done thumbnails. And it was, like, really well edited. I mean, it was clearly he was spending a lot of money on it. But I remember just, like, watching it and being, like, why does this guy give a shit about YouTube? Like, if he's so weird. retired. Yeah. Like, yeah, it is interesting.

23:17Who, who's who, like you're saying, who's looking for attention? Yes. Who's seeking online attention. Same like you, I imagine people reach out and sometimes I'm like, why are they reaching out to me? Yes. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. What value could I add to them? So it sounds like, like you, you created the business now. Yeah. I see the transitions. What does it take though? You know, let's, let's go behind the scenes. What is a day like for, for you, your team, everything you're doing to be able to push out the content that you do? Yeah. Uh, I'm glad you're asking this because I think people don't realize how much work goes into it.

23:58They just, they see a couple of Instagram reels or a Tik Tok or something and, you know, join your newsletter and they're like, Oh, well, that's cool. Everyone deserves a place to call home and a bank to help get them there. That's why we created the Old National Bank Down Payment Assistance Program. We'll help you from start to finish, and you may be eligible for up to$15 ,000 toward your down payment. So get old in a new home. Connect with an Old National mortgage lender to learn more. For complete details, visit oldnational.com slash home. Funds limited and subject to availability. Additional restrictions and qualifications apply.

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25:00Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. I actually get people in my daily life who come up to me and they're like, wow, you must spend a lot of time filming. I'm like, you know, I have people who do that for me. But so our team currently we had two new two new people start today. So I believe we're 22 people, 22 or 23 people. We have five or six editors. I mean, basically, we're pushing content out. I think we post around 10 to 15 pieces of content per day across all platforms. um we have weekly podcast episodes weekly youtube episodes uh two newsletters a week and then literally hundreds of pieces of social media content each month so obviously i'm not doing all of that and and usually the way it works is it kind of starts like i create the seed of something which is usually a youtube script or a newsletter i write kind of the the initial content and then the team is trained to repurpose that across tons and tons of different formats so it's you take a newsletter you pull an instagram real script from it you pull a couple tweets from it you pull a facebook post from it and then that all gets scheduled to go out to its like appropriate places so it takes it it is it's like a mini media company essentially like You have pre-production people.

26:29You have production people. We're sitting here in my studio right now. And then you have post-production people. And you go through very similar processes that people do for making commercials or music videos or TV shows. Well, thank you for having me here, by the way. Like you said, we're in your studio. So I appreciate it. It's incredible. It's sad that we don't have the footage of your studio. Maybe we can add some footage here because you have the best props. It's a goofy place. It's amazing. I could spend, I don't know if it's because I have an ADD brain of like, I could have fun in there.

27:05There's so many different things to play with. We got costumes now. You have costumes? Why are we not wearing a costume? We could do a snap edit here to you in a hot dog suit and me in an eggplant suit. I mean, I would do that. That's legit. My wife and I, one time, I think we were like ketchup and mayonnaise. Nice. I think I was a hot dog at some point. I like that idea. I want to go back to purpose. So thinking back, you mentioned 2020. That was an odd year for me, like most people in the world. All of my businesses, everything basically at that moment came to a zero. And I'm like, I don't know what the heck I'm going to do with my life.

27:43And I created a personal mission. Because I noticed for me before, everything I had was like a business mission to make money. and the moment that I like realized that I have no money like yeah I don't know if I'll ever be able to make money what I've been building right at that when everything shut down right I said I'm going to impact 100 million people in my life and I want to fit everything I do around that personal mission yeah so if my business collapse it doesn't matter yeah purpose is obviously very important to you not only it's your new app right which I use daily but what is your purpose my My purpose is to help people clarify and prioritize their values, which is essentially help people give better fucks.

28:28But it's I personally think that the the psychological problem of our age is we are exposed to too much, too much information, too many opportunities, too many people, too many perspectives. and the challenge that all of us face that no previous generation has ever faced is knowing what to cut out, knowing what to get rid of. What do I stop focusing on? What do I stop reading? What opportunities do I stop pursuing? And in many ways, that's like so much harder than finding something to pursue, right? Or to pay attention to. But it's when we're so inundated with all this stuff and all this noise all the time, It's that constant pruning that needs to be practiced and focused on.