Stephen Fishbach: The Truth About Reality TV (It’s Real, But Not What You Think) | Ep. 320 with Stephen Fishbach Best Selling Author of Escape!

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0:50Daniel Robbins:Steven, I have to laugh, but I don't want to laugh, Steven. So I'm excited to have you on today. One, because you're a very fun individual. And I think fun people make the best guess because then I can be myself around you. But Steven Fish back. I have so many questions because my wife has gotten me addicted to watching reality TV. And every time I watch, I'm like, I need to bring on someone who can answer these questions. So I think it'd be great to have an understanding around reality TV. What type of person goes on a reality TV show?

1:24Stephen Fishbach:Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's probably, you know, the reality TV that I've been on, which is jungle reality television, I feel like is its own kind of subgenre of reality TV. And I will say that I think people would be surprised at the type of people who go on those shows like Survivor or Naked and Afraid or Alone. My experience is that the people who go on these shows are not the kind of vapid fame whores. Can I say fame whores that society cast them on as? You know, the people who go on these shows are people who are sincerely looking to kind of have some kind of confrontation with the wilderness.

2:04Stephen Fishbach:They're looking to find themselves, you know, they're looking to step outside of their boring, normal lives, even if they're not boring. You know, I think we think of them as boring, just like, you know, at a desk, you know, in a routine and do something different where they're going to like get to the bottom of who they are. And the fact that that's happening in the context of a reality television show, which is sort of this ridiculous, you know, disposable cultural product, I think is really fascinating. And that's actually sort of what my book is about escape, you know, is that these people are going onto these shows looking for some kind of like transcendent confrontation with the jungle.

2:44Stephen Fishbach:And they're also, you know, doing the ridiculous obstacle course and they're in a hamster wheel, you know, running down the beach.

2:50Daniel Robbins:So is it real or is it scripted?

2:53Stephen Fishbach:Oh, it's real. I mean, it's very real. And of course, you know, again, like the book talks about producers and the way sort of they nudge you in a certain direction. I mean, what I think is really interesting about reality producers is that they are taking people's real lives and turning them into a three act story. You know, I got a powerful 3X story, a good 3X story. Like it has to be good or these shows wouldn't be on the air. It has to be fulfilling or like they wouldn't be renewed season after season. So like that's kind of amazing. You know, like you're in this chaotic environment, the jungle or I guess a real house for a real house person.

3:30Stephen Fishbach:And, you know, all this chaos is happening around you. And like there are these people whose job it is to like distill that into like a structured story arc. That's kind of amazing.

3:38Daniel Robbins:Wow. So they are really I mean, they have to be storytellers to be able to create a story. What do you think goes into having or at least with your experience? I know your working experience, your experience on reality TV and talking to other people. What makes an amazing producer?

3:56Stephen Fishbach:Yeah, I think it is that sense of what is a good scene. I mean, I interview, of course, when I was on reality TV, I interacted with a lot of producers. But, you know, there it's sort of, you know, you're you're sitting across from them in an interview. You're not getting into their heads. They're asking they're getting into your head. But when I was writing this book, I interviewed a lot of producers and they would talk about like knowing where a scene starts or a scene ends. And that was kind of crazy to me because I was I was thinking this is my life. Like I'm interacting with these people. I'm playing this game.

4:26Stephen Fishbach:But they're thinking of like even just an interaction at the camp as like, here's the scene. Here's where the opening is. Here's the stinger, you know. So they're really viewing it all in the terms of how can I sort of digest this and turn it into into story. It really is like people who are excellent storytellers and want to kind of craft a neat story out of the chaos of real life.

4:49Daniel Robbins:Talk about a job I never even thought. Like, I want to be a producer of a reality TV show. But that is fascinating. It sounds like they are really curating things more than what we think. We think it's like just things just happenstance. Like, it's just reality. Like, we don't know what's going to happen. But they are really curating and thinking about what should happen or shouldn't. I'm fascinating with dating shows. I watched Love is Blind recently on Netflix, and I couldn't help think like, are these people really in it for this? But then I also see them on like 10 other dating shows. And I wonder how much of those are like chasing fame versus like the survivor people who really want to find themselves.

5:28Stephen Fishbach:Yeah, I do think you're right that there are a lot of people who go on some of the dating shows, especially, you know, and some competition reality shows looking for the next show, being very conscious of how can I make a big enough performance on this show to justify being on House of Villains or The Traitors, you know, and certainly I think that's happened in the last few years. I remember even watching people on Survivor maybe five or six years ago, and I noticed that they were memeing, you know, they were doing little actions that were meant to be, you know, gift out and spread on X in our Facebook.

6:04Stephen Fishbach:And I was just, you know, when I first went on, I was not aware of that at all. You know, the cliche that you sort of forget about the cameras was very true for me, but I feel like the contestants now are very aware of the cameras and there are many of them or some of them anyway are really performing.

6:20Daniel Robbins:This reminds me of thinking back to like the first reality show that I remember, I think had to have been like the real world with MTV. Yeah. What was like the first reality show that you watched that even got you thinking about this could be something or maybe even something that

6:33Stephen Fishbach:you just stood out in your mind from before yeah i mean i certainly watched the real world but of course i along with fully half of america at the time watched that first season of survivor and was just blown away by it i was definitely part of those water cooler conversations back when there were water coolers in offices uh back when people went into offices you know before but um you know I thought Richard Hatch was incredible, this amazing villain. I was rooting for him to win. And the culture was outraged at him because he was voting out the nice people. But I actually was recruited to be on Survivor.

7:14Stephen Fishbach:I did not apply. I knew someone in casting who messaged me on Facebook in 2008 and said, hey, do you want to be on Survivor? Let's make it happen. And I literally did not know the show was still on the air. You know, they cast in terms of archetypes, and they certainly did that more at the time. You know, they had the hot alpha male, which obviously I was. No, they had, you know, either they cast their nerd character, you know, they cast their, you know, their beach beauty character, and they had cast their season, and they had already had a nerd character, but they decided he wasn't nerdy enough.

7:48Stephen Fishbach:And my friend said, oh, I know a real nerd. If you want a real true nerd, I've got the nerd for you. And that's why She emailed me. Is that why they're like from Yale to Survivor? Oh, yeah. I mean, totally. That was all part of the storyline. My glasses were not as thick back then as they are now, but I still did have glasses, which really distinguished me.

8:07Daniel Robbins:At least you still got hair because you could be like, I had hair back then. I know that feeling. So going back to Survivor, because I remember the last time I think I remember Survivor was when they're in the Philippines. Yeah. And great season. I love that season. I also just like the Philippines in general. but what is so you go on to this show how weird is it like what's the feeling like you're on the you're on a show it's like life there's cameras everywhere but like things have to happen like

8:35Stephen Fishbach:what's that experience like yeah that's a great question i love games and i also kind of like immersive experiences you know you i remember i that's a really good question you know the first part of it is very kind of structured you know you you sit at the this camp they take you to to acclimate for a week while you do your pregame press. You're not allowed to talk. And then at some point they let you go. And, you know, they're like, okay, game's on. And it's incredible, this feeling of freedom. Like I could go anywhere. I could literally walk anywhere. I'm in the Brazilian highlands. It was the Serato.

9:06Stephen Fishbach:I was, but I mean, I mean, like the Brazilian, you know, out outdoors, I could walk anywhere. I could do anything. I could talk to anyone. I could not talk to anyone, you know, who I decide to vote out is entirely based on my decisions and who I decide to vote for at the end is also just like I get to choose. I mean, just that freedom within the context of a game was mind boggling to me. It was truly so exciting, you know, just like literally the sense of like total, you can do anything and someone with a camera is going to follow you and it's going to be on television.

9:38Daniel Robbins:I find a lot of reality. I mean, especially like these shows, which I love these shows. It's like a study of human behavior. You You know, it's like, what would humans do? And it reminds me of like Lord of the Flies. Like if you put these people on this island and there's no real leadership and this, and then you have something gold at the end, like what's gonna happen to humans? What do you think, or what did you see at Survivor? And then just in general with reality TV, do you find this is like really, are there like anthropologists like studying us or maybe aliens?

10:11Stephen Fishbach:I mean, they should be. It's, you know, I mean, I'm assuming the answer is yes. you know yes the aliens are studying us and and probably watching reality tv it's got to be a really easy way to study us because you know the signals are out there the tv signals um so they can just kind of you know beam it up that's got to be pretty straightforward what's interesting is how each group does kind of create its own mores you know every group sort of creates its own kind of dynamic of what they value you know the other thing that was interesting i thought was the way that when you have to vote someone out, the group would always kind of like put all of the blame for the chaos around them on that one person.

10:52Stephen Fishbach:You know, they would always say like, oh, this person is playing too hard. This person is backstabbing. This person is lying. And then you vote them out and you get to feel good about yourself for a day. You know, like we got rid of the troublemaker. But then, of course, the game is what's forcing you to vote people out and lie and backstab. So suddenly you have to do it again. You're like, and it was a sense of we could like maintain our own sense of like moral integrity by putting all of our sins, you know, it was like literally like that sort of idea of a sacrificial goat, you know, where like, you know, you're like putting all the sins on this one person and like voting them out and like getting to like be feel good about yourself again.

11:24Daniel Robbins:I imagine when something becomes your life, it could be devastating when it's taken away. What was the feeling when you got voted off?

11:32Stephen Fishbach:Yeah. I mean, well, I was real. I was really tired and hungry. So immediately I was like, oh, I get to sleep and eat. That's nice. uh yeah it is devastating you're right and um you know you really are so immersed in this game and you're so focused on this prize you know for weeks um you know and there's a long weeks because like literally you've got nothing to do to distract yourself so they're very long weeks so you're right like you are there's like a real trauma that happens when you are voted out you know you kind of set your dreams and your goals on this like one object and then it's taken from you and i have to also say it's also really hard to vote somebody else out because you know that they and in many ways i found that actually harder than voting myself out or than myself getting voted out because you know what their dreams are you know someone's out there you know competing to like give their money to their dad who's worked his whole life or like they're gonna like set up their kids with a college education fund and you know you're like oh i'm voting you out taking all your dreams from you you know sending your family back to where they started from you know that that's really hard uh and like lying to someone to do that you know like betraying people you know most of us don't betray people in our day-to-day lives and it's actually not a good feeling i can't

12:50Daniel Robbins:help but laugh because i'm thinking like if i was to go on a show i just need to make a quick choose

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13:40Stephen Fishbach:In the NHL, silver is second to none.

13:46Daniel Robbins:The playoff push begins.

13:49Stephen Fishbach:Alex Ovechkin in the Capitals. Ovechkin fires. He scores! Take on Czechia's David Pasternak and the Bruins. He scores! Then USA hero Jack Hughes and the Devils host fellow countryman JT Miller and the Rangers. The NHL is back! Saturday on ABC. Ring Central's AI Receptionist uses Voice AI to answer on the first ring, so you'll never miss a call again. In just a few minutes, you can personalize your own AI Receptionist to answer questions, route calls, schedule appointments, and even send texts in multiple languages. Plus, it's easy to scale. Create unlimited AI receptionists across any phone system.

14:30Stephen Fishbach:It's all powered by one reliable platform for effortless AI communications. See for yourself at ringcentral.com. Ringcentral, voice of your business.

14:40Daniel Robbins:An outrageous story, whether it's true or not, maybe not true. So people will then feel bad to not, maybe that's part of the strategy. Obviously, you were a fan favorite. You know, tens of millions and millions of people voted you to go back on the survivor. Did you hesitate? Like, why do I want to do this again? Or what was your thought? Like, maybe this, maybe this will have a positive impact on my life.

15:05Stephen Fishbach:Yeah, I did. I mean, honestly, I did not initially want to do it again because I, you know, for that reason that it was so emotionally challenging to betray people, lie to people. I was really affected by it my first time and I did not plan to do it again. the producers called me and said basically this is your last chance like if you're going to go again this is the one this is your opportunity and passing up something like that felt you know it felt reckless like you know this is something this is a dream that so many thousands of people have you know thousands and thousands of people apply and it's being gifted to me so you know why not go for that adventure one more time um and the fact that it was a fan vote made it cool you know i kind of thought like okay like that's cool to be voted in by the fans so if that happens and i do get chosen like that would be a cool thing to write on my resume you know maybe 15 years from

15:56Daniel Robbins:now someone will be uh you know calling me a fan favorite i mean here we are that was literally yeah that was 15 years ago right like you said that's or 16 years ago well like first there was

16:06Stephen Fishbach:probably that one was probably like 10 years 10 or 11 years ago 2015 i think but and then you wrote

16:12Daniel Robbins:the book. So you obviously, the great thing I love about your story too, is not only were you like bachelor of the year, that's, I'm still fascinated by that. Um, but you're also, you leveraged it because I think what happens a lot of times from what I've seen, just following media for many years and, uh, you know, studying media stuff is a lot of times these people don't leverage it there on after, maybe they just want to try and be an actor, but we know most people will not continue to be an actor. You have really capitalized and leveraged it to write multiple books, best-selling books, highly awarded.