The Career Rule That Took Him From Bagger to 3-Time CIO | Ep. 405 with Harrison Allen Lewis Founding Partner at Jacob Meadow Associates

0:00Doors are going to open, opportunities have been opened, and you have to say yes, unless you have a good reason to say no. Fear is never a reason. Harrison Allen Lewis, founding partner at Jacob Meadow Associates, from fearless bagger to fearless CIO. I've learned some of my best lessons from dealing with horrible managers and being observant. The store manager comes up to me and he says, Harrison, someone called in a bomb threat. And instead of me dealing with it, he said, I went over and I handed you the keys. But the thing was I learned from that was about accountability and taking responsibility and being put in a situation where you've got to make tough decisions.

0:40That changed my entire life.

0:50So Harrison, I was just thinking about this recently. I had this experience when I was an assistant manager and my store manager I had was the worst manager. He was terrible and never believed in me. I remember he went on vacation. I wanted to prove him right that he'd made the right choice in me. So I did amazing results. He came back and he just berated me on why I didn't do paperwork. And I'll never forget that. The lessons I learned from him and these horrible managers, I think maybe stuck with me even more so than the managers I had that believed in me more. Why do you think that is? And what has been your experience around lessons from horrible management?

1:37Yeah, I've learned some of my best lessons from dealing with horrible managers and being observant. And, you know, I've had quite a few, but one that really sticks out to me is that I had a manager that I was working throughout college in a grocery store. And, you know, and I was doing I'd done all the different roles in the store. And one of the managers, the store manager comes up to me and he says, Harrison, kind of looked kind of he looked strange. And he came to me and he said, Harrison, I'm going to go down the mall for about about an hour. and I'm handing you the keys. Take care of everything.

2:16Oh my goodness. I was so, so incredibly excited, right? I thought this guy believed in me. So I go and I take the keys and I clip them on my belt and I'm walking around the store and I'm making sure everything's in order and everything else. And it was great. So then about an hour later, he comes up and he says, how's everything? I said, everything's fine. And so he says, okay, can I have my keys? I gave him the keys and walked off. So I really felt like this guy, that this person believed in me. So about, uh, about six months later, he was terminated and they had, you know, they, the way they terminated their district manager would show up and he asked the store manager for the keys and they would take the keys.

2:56And then another store manager would show up. So this guy was terminated. So about six months later, I'm in the store and I'm working and I was going through college and this manager comes to me and he comes up and he says Harrison how have you been I said I've been doing well I how have you been he says uh he says fine he said I've got something to share with you and I said well what is that he says you remember that day that I came to you and I told you that I uh I had uh you know I had to go down to the mall and said yeah I said I was really you know I was really you know I really felt made me feel really good about that he says He said, well, you know, I'm an alcoholic and I'm in AA now.

3:37And I have to kind of make things right. So I got to tell you what happened. I said, well, what is that? He said, well, what happened was someone called in a bomb threat and said a bomb's going to go off. And instead of me dealing with it, he said, I went over and I handed you the keys. And I went down the other side. I went on the other end of the mall. Right. That point, I was completely, completely deflated because all this time I thought that I had one view of it. But the thing was I learned from that was about accountability and taking responsibility and being put in a situation where you've got to make tough decisions and owning it.

4:19And I remember that for this very day. And so just like every other situation when I've dealt with bad managers and I observe and I've learned from them and I think it's benefited me in ways that it would be impossible had I not had that experience and only been working with good managers. It reminds me of a time when I took over a new state when I had been promoted. I was a store manager now being promoted to regional manager. I didn't really get any training and I was quite young. I come in, there's all these managers who are older than me who have been in the market for a long time, think they deserve the position over me.

5:03right and then i realized that over like as i analyzed them they were not even in the right positions and so now i'm tasked to basically fire them because that's kind of the corporate way right like you go in you clean something up if it's failing you fire people and it got me thinking at that moment like i probably wasn't suited for the job because i didn't know what the heck i was really doing. They weren't suited for their job. But instead of people looking at what is your strengths and skill sets and putting you in a job that fits, they just throw you in these positions or put you in these roles.

5:42And it just got me wondering, like, there has to be a better way. So I tried to help all these people get into other roles. And they were always mad at me, because I didn't promote them within, I moved them to a different department. But the whole point was, I'm like, they didn't know that I was about to fire them. How do you what do you think about companies that are so hyper focused on on this, like promoting people, moving people, but not putting them matching to the actual strength that they have or even teaching them the skill that they need? Yeah. You know, I think about it and I've got I've gone into a lot of situations, you know, as you know, as a consultant in the business, as well as as a as a CIO and other leadership roles.

6:31And you're going to the in these situations. One of the things I've learned is really that it's being putting people in a place where you're doing things with them as opposed to to them. And so it's really about being able to have them have a clear understanding of where we're going and why, right? Without kind of thinking about it in terms of their current roles and things like that, right? Because people are really, really able to make tough decisions, right? And I mean, they're very resilient. Right. You think about that in their personal lives, they're making decisions about, you know, their mothers and their fathers and about children and about purchasing homes and cars and, you know, death and life decisions.

7:17They're making those decisions. And so the idea that they can't, they're incapable of making decisions and dealing with problems at work is I think is very flawed. And so what I do is I think about it as saying, OK, this is where they are. I'm going to say this is where we're going, where we need to go, and here's why. And then engaging them in terms of making it very clear to them in terms of what that is and what they represent in terms of the roles and responsibilities. Right. And then engaging them and saying, OK, let's talk about the things that you have an interest in and are the things that you don't have an interest in.

7:55And what is the gap and what is going to be necessary for you to be able to transition into those roles? Ultimately, what happens is and what I've seen is that people will make that decision. They say, you know, look, I'm not interested. I'm not interested in being retooled. and I'm, you know, thank you, but I'm going to leave. You have others that say, you know, I'm going to be, I'm interested in this, and boy, I don't know if I'm going to be successful. And what I say to them is that if you're interested, and I'm going to do everything, and you're interested. If you've ever watched this show, you know I travel constantly, and here's something nobody warns you about.

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9:54We're going to identify the gaps. It's your responsibility to bridge those gaps. And when you do so, we're going to let you know along the way and we're going to celebrate your successes here. And then you have others that kind of say, I'm going to do a wait and see, you know, and see whether this comes to pass. I've had situations where, you know, some people have come to me, where I've had people come to me and they left the organization after they kind of did the wait and see. And then they said, they came back to me and said, you know, Harrison, when you said this is where you're going as an organization, I thought you were crazy.

10:33You know, I didn't think you'd be successful. I didn't think that, you know, that you as the team would be successful and you were, right? But it is really about being able to do things with people as opposed to doing, you know, to people, you know? And I think that's where organizations, they're making a mistake now, you know, in the way that they're approaching these. And so people are surprised. There's so much uncertainty and things like that, you know, and I'm upfront with it. I deal with clients. I did that just today with a client. And I said, here's kind of what that looks like. Here's what we're recommending.

11:14And the client, one of the individuals in the client says, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What does that mean for me? I mean, right there, but among all these people, right? Well, what does that mean for me? Well, let's talk about that. and, you know, leaning into that and talking about it. And then this person said, you know, yeah, I get it. And now the responsibility is an elevated role. Here is what that looks like, you know. And everyone could hear that and understand that. But it is really being very, very, I think about it in terms of being transparent. I think in terms of being authentic, being candid, and coming from a place that people are resilient and very capable.

11:59It reminds me of this phrase I heard that your employees or people want to feel celebrated, cherished, and embraced. And that resonated with me for a long time. Basically going off what you said, you mentioned that people were surprised of the success that you would have Because you have this sounds like a grandiose vision where many people don't. Right. They're kind of like siloed in a box tunnel vision. They can't see the huge, giant picture that you see. What do you think was like the secret sauce to the successes that you've had? Well, you know, I think that it is something very often that there is situations where there is the grand vision, but it's not being communicated.

12:43OK, because they because they can't handle it. Right. I think there's also where, you know, it's not a matter of thought out. And so I think about it in terms of, you know, what is the outcome? What's then is the strategy? What then is the plan? And then, you know, and you're walking that through. And so being able to kind of craft that all the way through, okay, what is the outcome? What's the strategy to achieve that outcome? And then what is the plan? And then, you know, clearly about, you know, then what are the kind of the capabilities that are necessary to unlock, you know, that outcome, right?

13:25And then you got into it. And then the technology is the piece that all kind of follows. But it really is like thinking about that from a standpoint of strategy, you know, and then the outcome, strategy and plan. And I think what happens is, is that very often people will think about it purely from a standpoint of plan. And you have a plan that's not anchored in strategy. That's a problem. And if you have a strategy that's not anchored in outcome, then that's a problem as well. And everyone needs to understand all of those pieces in order to be able to engage. Someone just yesterday was asking me, how do I feel about entrepreneurship now that there's so many converging technologies, but not just converging?

14:09They're at such an advanced place. what's the environment of entrepreneurship? And I told them, it's like everyone can create an app very cheap or they can create things. They can build things, create things. They can do a lot of things within a business for very inexpensive, leveraging the million AI tools. At the same time, everyone can do it, which then creates, I think, a massive amount of competition. And I was telling them the number one thing you have to do is what makes you different. And I know you talk a lot about companies finding their X factor, which makes them different. How can someone right now figure this out?

14:52Because I think it might be the single most important thing that people do for their business. You know, I do think that it is about being able to think about it as a business. And a business ultimately needs to be creating value, you know, and it needs to make money. And it needs to be something that people are willing to value more than their money. So if what you come up with that it's valued to the extent that someone's willing to say, I'm going to give you cash in exchange for this thing, that's what you want. And so I think it's important that entrepreneurs really think about it from that standpoint is, what is that thing that's going to create the value, what's going to create value?

15:43What is missing yet needed? And I think that in this day and age, it is really, really great because you can do a lot of the things that represented impossibilities in the past, right? And so it's really about, you know, and a lot of these jewels are in these areas that, you know, people have looked at and said, well, that's impossible. You know, that can't be done. And they set it aside. Right. This is the opportunity to really rethink all of that and say everything's on the table, you know, and really think about, you know, what are the things that are going to create value? and then how do you then leverage what we're capable of today and what we will be capable of in the future.

16:30When we talk about future, it is not, you know, in a matter of years. We're talking about in months, you know, of how this is happening. But it is about, you know, being able to identify that and it really comes down to the differentiation. I think the other thing is, is that understanding the tools. And, you know, very often, you know, it is really understanding the tools. And so I think about it, you know, an analogy would be, you know, a painter, right? And a painter has, you know, brushes and they've got paint and they've got canvas and everything else. But the thing is, is that someone behind them created those, the paint.

17:11Someone created the brushes. Someone created the canvas. And each of those, the brushes and the paint and the canvas all have unique properties. And it's important to understand those unique properties in order to be able to be the most effective as a painter. And the same thing goes true for entrepreneurs that are living in this age today. It's important to understand the tools and then being able to then leverage those in terms of identifying those areas that are going to create value that people want to pay for. Oh, my God. I don't think people understand how important that is. Like you're saying, I might have a problem that I'm solving, but if no one is willing to pay me for that problem or more than the problem might cost, like if it costs me$10 to solve the problem and I sell it for$5, then I'm negative, right?

18:05Like I know so many people that have gone out of business because the problem that they had, no one was willing to pay for that problem. And they didn't think that through in the beginning. So it's critically important. What else do you find? You've worked with so many companies. What else do you find is like a gigantic miss that these companies have that's might it might be a common thread? And then how do you solve that? I mean, I think that if if you bring people together and they are able to kind of work together onto a common problem, and it's not necessarily from a standpoint of, you know, that they are coming forward as as as as business people, you know, to solve a problem.

18:48But so often what happens is everyone walks in and they're wearing their hat, their area of responsibility. And so that is the thing that leads. And so what will happen is, is that they either are excluded from the conversation and the opportunity to be able to engage in that problem or helping the organization realize on the opportunity. They're excluded because either they're carrying that badge, this is who I am, and they're walking into there, or they're excluded because this is the badge that they hold, right? As opposed to saying, I'm a business person first. I care about this business. I understand this business.

19:35And then I can engage in this level. And then what I can do is to then take the discipline, my knowledge, my experience, and things like that, and engage in this problem, this opportunity, and be able to also defer to others is important as well. Uh, and, uh, I think that's, that's, I think that I see there's a, is a, is a big missing. And so a lot of what we do is really about bringing all of that together. You know, we, we come forward with a lot of, you know, best practices and, and, you know, methodology and all this other stuff. But the fact is, it's about being able to bring people together and collectively kind of understand what the outcome is, understand kind of what the strategy is, understand the plan, and then be able to engage in that in a way that is aligned.

20:33And I think that is so incredibly powerful and important. So you've done things world first, such as when you moved an entire data center to Google Cloud, swapping out POS systems, rebuilding reporting on AWS. Obviously, things I'm guessing worked out well, but they might have not. You're doing things that could potentially almost destroy the business if it goes wrong. What was the worst day you had as a CIO? Well, I've had a few. I had one where I had gone into an organization and they brought me on and they said, hey, here's where we are and everything else. And this happens to, I think, a lot of people.

21:23And they said, well, here's where we are, here's what we're doing. And what we need to be able to do is execute that. right and i looked at it and i i was there about two weeks and i said there is no way i mean they've been working at this for you know a year year and a half saying they're ready and so on so forth and i looked at it and and i said there's no way and in order to be able to to address it it was going to take, you know, time and it was going to take a lot of money. I turned in a new person in the organization. I was, I had probably in a matter of about a month there, I probably became the most, the most aided person there because they, you know, everyone was like, you know, you made this happen, right?

22:14I'm like, it wasn't going to happen regardless. I just basically, you know, called it as it is right and now here's what needs to happen and so we were able to you know engage and everyone engaged and and you know for their first thing was okay well you fix it you know you tell us how to fix it it's okay well here's what the strategy and the plan and so on and so forth and then people kind of you know got engaged and everything else and then and then and we were fine um the other is is that you know you i've stepped into situations where you know the play The strategy and the plan has been set.

22:47And it's like, I just need you to execute. And that was a huge lesson learned for me. And like, no, under no circumstance. Because I have to understand the outcome. I have to understand the strategy. I have to understand the plan. I have to understand how we got here and not be in a situation where I'm asked to execute because at that point you own it, right? And you own it and you're held at, you're accountable for it. And so those are, you know, really, really tough, you know, those are tough times and tough days, you know, when you're having to do that. And then also being in a situation where you are asked to execute something that in itself, the outcome was absolutely, absolutely not there, you know, even after asking the question, well, what is the outcome?

23:43Well, no, it doesn't matter, right? We're just doing technology upgrade, right? Okay. Sometimes you got to tell people the uncomfortable truth. Right, right, right. But it tells them what they don't want to hear because everyone else is yesing them. That's why you're hired in the C-suite, I imagine, because they need this different perspective. So I think when you're in that position, it could be a lonely place. Just like many people say, you know, being in business can be very lonely because you don't really have a lot of people around you or people that even really understand. When you're in the C-suite, you kind of have to put on this persona and face.

24:24You can't tell your employees, I would think, everything, of course, right? Like, you have to be the shining light. You have to be the guide. In the moments when you had fear or doubt, who would you call? You know, I've always kind of surrounded myself with colleagues and mentors and people that, you know, it was reciprocal. It wasn't one way. But understanding that, you know, and being able to have people that you can call on that have been in that situation, others that are kind of calling on you. And so it is all very, very reciprocal in being there. You know, I think about it in terms of giving back, you know.

25:06So for me, it is, you know, where I am and who I am is as a result of people, you know, that they invested in me. Right. And so as a result, I have a responsibility to give back. It's a responsibility. It's an obligation. But it's also then surrounding myself around people who think in kind, that think the same way, that where they are is because someone invested in them and they have a responsibility to give back. And so that's what I try to surround myself with, as opposed to those that have other motives. And it's important to be able to have that audience. Very often, it's a sounding board.

25:57I can tell that you are very intelligent. And you have a lot of experience with technology. there's a big debate now around is iq gonna even matter in the future is eq more important or do i don't does none of these even matter but what do you think around the does will iq really matter in the future well i think that that eq absolutely matters and even even more so but i think also and you know this this whole thing around you know it's it's so much about people. It is so much about people. And, you know, and I don't, and I think that will always be the case. I think that we got into this thing with COVID and some of these other things that gave us this impression that it really wasn't the case, but it really is about people.

26:46And I think that will always be the case. And it's so incredibly powerful when you bring people together and they're relating. I think the other side of it in terms of IQ, with so much of this happening in terms of what's capable in terms of technology. I find it actually, personally, it's a relief because I'm able to then leverage the tools and the tools are doing a lot of the things that are the repetitive and kind of the heavy lifting. And then I'm able to kind of elevate up. I'm able to spend more time on more things that are more significant, right? And so I think it actually has made me much more intelligent.

27:39You know, I'm not having to remember kind of the minutia. You know, we do this thing. We have this thing called the ledger, which is our knowledge base, right? And it's on this rag. but you know we commit all these things to it and the thing is is that i don't have to remember all these things i you know i do i can remember but there's things that i don't necessarily remember and the thing is that it it has that information and so as a result i'm able to call pull on that pull on that information and readily available and it allows me to then be able to kind of gauge at a much higher level. So I think it gives the perception maybe that I'm more intelligent, you know?

28:27But I do think I'm able to spend more time on things that really, you know, really matter as a result of leveraging the tools. People sometimes think I'm really smart. I'm like, I'm probably like 85 IQ. I don't know. I think I was like, you know, 200 or whatever. I'm like, it's AI. Believe me, it's AI. I like to really ponder on the butterfly effect in my life. Like I can go back 30 years and say this moment in my life, that moment led to this moment to like, you know, like I could go all the way up. It's like, wow, if that moment didn't happen, I would not physically be here. And something for me was dropping out of college.