The Global Negotiator Who Can Defuse Anyone Even in a War Zone | Ep 278 with Omar Khan Co-Founder of 3S Catalyst Consulting

0:04So, Omar, I think it'd be really fun because you're a fun guy. As much as you are serious, you are funny. You also have incredible quotes. Before we even started, you gave me like three quotes that I either forgot about or didn't even know. So I can tell this is going to be a good one. But what is a provocative standout moment that's happened to you? Because you've been through a lot of things all around the world. But something that really stands out when you were giving some workshops in some country. Let's go to Sri Lanka. and I finish a workshop about communication and bridge building. An angry man jumps up, gets in my face and says, your country, the United States, wants to keep us economically down, doesn't want us to progress.

0:53How can you stand here and be talking to us? Now that's one of those moments where you either fire back, run for cover, dodge it or say, oh, and you can't do that because you're teaching bridge building. So would you like me to share what happened next? So following loving assertiveness, which is built on the teachings of a man called Marshall Rosenberg, nonviolent communication and other companion methodologies like that. I looked at the gentleman and I said, sir, I said it in the same intensity, not being rude. I said, sir, are you very frustrated because you feel my country doesn't understand your economic realities?

1:41And he stared at me for a second. He said, yes, they don't care. I said, and you're very upset that your family's suffering isn't understood by policymakers who give speeches but don't bother to actually listen or touch flesh? I said, yes. And then he said, you know, and our government's no better. It's not just yours. And I said, and you wish that there were a way to get a hearing for some of these realities so that if there were genuine efforts to improve Sri Lanka, they could land and not misfire. And he said, yes, and how do we do that? And we had a conversation going. And I like this story because in five minutes, this belligerent man who had clearly been seeking to blow up the conversation, calmed down.

2:32We chatted. We talked about his family. We talked about how we could get word out. And he said, would you like to have a cup of tea? And this is Sri Lanka. So Ceylon tea? No way I was going to say no. So do you find that most people in the world pretty much want the same thing. Like most people in the world want to better themselves. They want to have a better life. They want to have a great life for their family. They want to do something purposeful. Obviously, there are bad people in the world. But do you find going to these workshops and being all around the world that most people were pretty much looking for the good?

3:09So here's the thing. When we talk in loving assertiveness terms, my job is to get out of the judgment business, because I don't know whether that person is good, bad, or indifferent. All I know is at that moment, they're loud or provocative, difficult or easy. We've all been there, right, Daniel? I mean, I wouldn't want to be judged by my worst day, or my worst utterance, or my least mature interaction. And if somebody were to extrapolate from that and say that's who I was, that would be pretty devastating. So at that moment, I have to try to open a window to possibility and see if they'll walk through it.

3:51And one of the ways that we do that is that we go beyond the surface behavior and try to get to the underlying need. And it is needs that I do believe are universal. Strategies can be different. So if you're in a more developed country, you might need one type of strategy. If you're in a more challenged economic situation, you might need a different kind of strategy. All right. If there's a crisis happening, a downturn, a recession, some kind of economic implosion, or you're in a war zone, or who knows, you're just going through a period of polarization like we are here. The strategies can be different, but the underlying my needs, which are more than one.

4:40I mean, it doesn't mean that my need is always the same as your need, but they're needs we can all recognize. Talk about conflict zones. I know you've been in them and you've been in some very, very unique situations, challenging situations. What did these situations teach you that you then took back to Fortune 500 companies, to business, to people that are not obviously in the same conflict zone. If you allow me, I'd like to talk about what we took back not only to corporates, not only to boardrooms, but even to bedrooms. Because the dynamics are the same, whether it's your brother, your sister, your partner, escalated and put it into an organizational setting, and it gets a little more complicated, but the dynamics aren't all that different, and take it up into conflict zones.

5:31And so a lot of this work is a balance between power and love. So you need some level of accountability imposed, some consequences, because otherwise you have a shouting match. Nobody's going to pacify themselves. What everybody does is just repeat their own corner. The problem with that is that we end up in a lose-lose scenario. It's a cul-de-sac. Nobody gets anywhere. So there needs to be some leverage point, some organization, some body, some situation. And what we've learned from those conflict zones is that it is absolutely fine to negotiate with people who utterly disagree with you. This idea that I must get someone to agree with me before I can talk to them is absurd.

6:21There was a remarkable play put on here at the Lincoln Center and elsewhere called Oslo. And it talked about the Oslo Accords, the signing of the peace on the White House lawn. Unfortunately, soon after it was signed, Prime Minister Rabin was killed by a Jewish extremist. And Arafat, never high on the emotional maturity scale, allowed himself to be browbeaten into launching another intifada. So it was short-lived, but it was a beautiful moment because it was signed, despite all the people who said it was impossible. And early on in the play, somebody says, you want us to negotiate with terrorists, with people who blow up our civilians?

7:05And he said, well, who else are you going to negotiate with? People you're going to sit down and have a cup of cake with? I mean, a cup of tea or a piece of cake? Who else is there to negotiate with than people who may make your blood boil, your skin crawl, may make everything in you say, these people cannot be spoken to, but if that were literally true, and maybe that person can't be spoken to, but maybe there are other people in that movement or in that faction or who express those interests who are more rational. That's clearly what happened in the Oslo Accords. They found people. And some of the negotiators on both the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side, even though they came apart, their children are still friends today.

7:54And that brings goosebumps every time I tell that story. So when we realized that that was doable, and I wasn't involved in that particular case, but we've been in Lebanon, we've been in Sri Lanka, we've been in India, we've been in various conflict situations in Pakistan, in the Danny Pearl times after 9-11. I was a consultant for the Catholic Church building leadership in Pakistan because they're a persecuted minority. And that's why power and love, loving assertiveness, because this new age suggestion that all you have to do is keep the peace and smile at everyone doesn't work. There is time that power and consequences have to be brought to bear.

8:37That says, no, this is not okay. We cannot. And at the same time, we need love, understanding what would drive you to want to behave this way? What are the needs and can we find better strategies? So now you come to a corporate setting. We were invited by a very large company and the chairman said, our strategy is beautiful, but it's not getting implemented. Help me figure out why. And so I asked every, I took the nine person leadership team. I said, sit them at round tables and we'll have a series of discussions. The HR person came to me and said, very worried. She said, you cannot make the marketing and sales director sit at the same table.

9:19I said, why not? She said, they hate each other. I pulled the chairman, a very smart, capable, accomplished leader in many, many other ways. These are not dumb people. That's why, you know, when Daniel Goldman pointed out emotional intelligence is distinct from IQ, that was a revelation, but it shouldn't have been one if we actually looked at how the world operates. And I said to him, you're not serious. You asked me why your strategy was stuck. And your HR director just told me your marketing and sales director cannot even sit at the same table. He said, I know, I know, I know. So I said, listen, so either you overrule her and seat them at the same table without even bringing it up.

10:03You just do it because I'm so dumb. I just asked for people and we just tossed everybody's name into a hat. And there they landed and let them stand up in front of a room and say, I can't sit with this guy. I said, they'll never do it. I said, or we go home because you have the answer. They sat down. And three days later, I remember when the marketing director turned to the sales director and said, you are my challenge. But I'm willing to undertake it. And the sales director said, this is the first time I've actually gotten a sense of what you're trying to move forward, not just what you're opposed to.

10:45And I can get on board with some of that. It sounds like loving assertiveness is what we need. And I'll give you an example of why. I'm kind of shocked of how, let's just take the U.S. and I've had the opportunity recently to travel around the world and talk to a lot of people and I'm fascinated that surprisingly a lot of people feel similar in different places but let's take the U.S. you have you know one party thinks a certain way and if you want to be a part of the other party you have to think it's another way I was I was listening to people talking about how they can't date somebody who is from a different political party.

11:26They can't be with friends with somebody who thinks differently. It's like this, the internet and social media specifically now has forced us, if you want to gain traction online, you have to be polarizing, which I know you mentioned earlier, but you have to be polarizing in a certain way. And I wonder even And sometimes if these people even believe it or if they're just literally going to get traction online. But what I've seen it cause is now everyone then feels that they have to choose a side. And I always felt myself that what made me stand out or different in my life was I seek to understand why somebody is having that bad day or they feel a certain way because I don't want to judge them based on that one interaction.

12:15Because like you said, what if their father just died 15 minutes earlier and they're having the worst day of their life? But how do you look at this in terms of how do we tell people, especially I think young people, especially young people, I feel like they feel they really have to choose a side and they cannot be around nor associate themselves with anyone that thinks any different than them. And I find that to be very scary. Yeah, I mean, you've raised so many important points. And I'm going to delve into them. Do you mind if I backtrack for just a second, because you like stories. And I just want to leave you with one from that interaction from that corporate sales and marketing director.

12:59When I started that conversation, I put up a quote from my old pal, Tom Peters, the Uber guru with whom I worked. And the quote said, a leader today has to be the rock of Gibraltar on rollerblades. And one of my most prized possessions at the end of that session is that this company gave me as a gift a rock and a pair of rollerblades. And they did achieve that strategy. Anyway, that was just I thought you would get a chuckle out of that. And it might be a nice image, the Rock of Gibraltar on rollerblades, because I think that's not irrelevant to the rest of your question either, by the way. Too many people understand the rock part and too many people don't understand the rollerblades.

13:46You know, it's very interesting when you think about the founding of the American Republic, which is not fashionable, I suppose, now to lionize anymore. but some wonderful things came out of it, obviously. And the first cabinet, when George Washington put it together, had Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton on it. If there were ever people at loggerheads, if there were ever people who did not like each other, if there were people who philosophically were opposed, and he did that on purpose. Abraham Lincoln, when he brought on his cabinet, was called a team of rivals. These epical moments in our history were made possible by bringing into the tent all of the opinions from smart, capable people who were diametrically opposed in some ways.

14:38And there's a wonderful story about how eventually Jefferson had to invite Hamilton to a Monticello-type dinner of the type he was famous for hosting to decide where the new capital would be and how war debt would be settled. They had to break bread, drink wine, have a meal together, and find a way to save their fledgling republic. Now, so all I guess I want to say is that the period is not unique in being polarized. I mean, the people that Lincoln brought in were the very people trying to defeat him politically who venerated him by the time we lost him. and even LBJ when he was asked why he still kept J.

15:22Edgar Hoover said he said I'd much rather have him on the inside pissing out than on the outside pissing in so the polarization may not be unique but we seem to have lost the capacity the emotional intelligence has actually declined because we've all gone into bunkers you know I worked with a lawyer who had been a congressional aide And he said that he and he was a Republican, those on the Democratic side. So this was during Ronald Reagan's period. And Ronald Reagan and Tip O 'Neill, you know, didn't necessarily like each other very much, but they could get things done. Newt Gingrich and Bill Clinton weren't pals, but they could balance a budget together.

16:06And in those days, those congressional aides could still have lunch together without being considered disloyal. Today would be considered betrayal. So to answer your question in terms of what do we tell young people, I would tell them, do you want to solve problems or would you like to be right? That's the question, because you can't have both. If and rightness anyway is a precarious accomplishment. You know, Oliver Wendell Holmes once said, the truth is a shifting residue from a competition of ideas. it's a shifting residue. It's not permanent. Well, how are we going to have that residue at all if there's no competition of ideas, which means I actually hear the other idea, understand it, and then can fairly compete with it or against it.

17:04So the question to ask the youth is, do we want to make progress or do you want to be right? Because we can't have both. because the only way to make progress is to enroll people with similar needs, but maybe very different strategies. So, Omar, I can't help but laugh, but you know what something I think about? When you say that phrase, I can't help but think about marriage. Yes. And many times, or let's say marriage or business partnerships, many times. Let's go there. Let's go in marriage. Many times this has come up in my mind where I want to, not fight back physically, but I want to say something back or I want to argue because I feel like I want to be right.

17:53And then I've had to learn to adapt over this last many years and adjust to, I really love, I want to get the tattoo of that phrase. Like that's how much I love that phrase because I why do you think people I just know so many people tell me about the arguments they're having, let's say their spouse or relationships. And I feel like every single one that I've heard the last few years is related to what you just said. So why is it that people have a very, very hard time, I think, being able to do that in a relationship? So some of it is we have not been provided the correct vocabulary or the framework.

18:38You know, if you imagine, and I'm going to be more specific, Daniel, but if just allow me to backpedal just a little bit to give a perspective to the people who are listening to this or watching this. For some reason, we would not ever think that you could just do plumbing without any kind of experience or training or knowledge. You wouldn't think that you could drive a car without some education or training. or licensing. But the most volatile, the most infinitely intimate act, connecting heart to heart, mind to mind, soul to soul with another human being, is something most of us think, well, I'm a natural.

19:17Everybody thinks they're a great communicator. And of course, the world, the wreckage in the world shows we're not. Everybody thinks they're a great listener. And of course, look at the amount of litigation that we have in our society. That puts the lie to our skills at rapport building or listening or connecting. So the first thing I would say is we need to be willing to be re-educated. There are all these people who want to be educated in AI. That's fantastic. How about also being educated in the emotional ability, the literacy, the vocabulary, the understanding of human needs? So I think one of the reasons is just we're maladroit because we haven't been equipped.

20:03You know, if you don't have those skills, if you don't have the vocabulary, if you don't have the framework, that I have to understand what this person's need is right now. And may I give you an example? Please. I'm really enjoying it, by the way, because I right off the top of my head, I think, yes, we don't have the skills. And the only skills I have are the ones I've learned, let's say, watching my parents or something, and it didn't work out for them. So I probably don't have the right tool. Well, it's not just you. I didn't have I don't have those skills either. It's a practice. and loving assertiveness, the book that we've just come up with on Amazon, takes you through that practice.

20:47The workshops we do make people practice. It's muscle memory. Because when the moment comes, you cannot just count on, I'll talk myself into doing this right. It's got to be a practice. And so the example I'll give you is somebody, let's suppose that you want to go and partied that evening. I'll take something simple. You're welcome to give me a tougher case, okay? And your partner says, I want to stay home. I don't want to go to a party. I'm tired. I want to stay home. Now, on the surface, you can't both go out and stay home. The strategies are irreconcilable, right? And so either you can say you don't want to go out with me, you're a drag.

21:33The other person says you're just scared of intimacy. You always want to be in a social setting. Why can't we ever have time together? And now you're stuck. What we learn to do, however, is somebody, you say, hey, I want to go out. And the person says, I want to stay in. You take a breath and you say, are you feeling very tired right now? Is it right now that you need some rest and care? And you'd like to maybe be open, you'd be open to going out at another time. And you have the person tell that back to you immediately diffuses the situation. And if the other person is also literate, and they say, and you're bubbling with energy, and you want to go out and be with friends.

22:14So maybe is there a way we could be together? That's a little more exciting than as just channel surfing. And then you can then you know, it's amazing. When both of you have empathy for each other's needs, the strategy always suggests itself. The strategy is never the problem. But because we fight over strategies instead of the underlying needs and that our feelings are the spotlights, what we're feeling point to the needs. And we show you the practice in the book. It's full of examples, as is the workshop, real case studies, both with families, with parents, with business associates, and yes, in organizations and international settings.

22:59Yeah, I wonder how can you use this? Because it almost sounds like sales. Like I mean, like I could use this for sales, like you're saying, you know, I think I've done so many sales trainings, and they talk about empathy and bearing and other I don't know a whole bunch of things. I might even be saying them wrong, because it's been it's been a while. But I wonder, really, it's like the art of persuasion. And here, it's not the art of persuasion, because I'm I never want to persuade you to do anything other than fulfill your need. So I've got to find out what your need is. And I want to confess to you what my need is, and to see if we can collaborate on a strategy that honors both those needs.

23:38It doesn't have to be 50-50. Maybe you're less tired than I am needing to go blow off steam, or maybe it's the other way around. So it is, I mean, because at the end of the day, I may not get what I want. You may not come out for a party, or I might not stay home. We might decide, hey, you chill out. And hey, you go with those friends of yours, with my blessing, blow off some steam and then come back and we'll be together. You know, that's all possible. And any hybrid of that is possible. The sales version would be, I'm going to wink, and they're going to want to come out with me. I'm going to create a sense of need to be out with me.

24:15That's this outcome-based bullshit. Whereas this is needs-based compassion and connection. But it's loving assertiveness. So I get to tell my needs and I get to receive yours. And we both try to make life more wonderful for each other without abdicating who we are. That's the practice. I love this because my wife, she graduated with a degree in psychology. She's a very good communicator. and she always tells me that I am pretty much a very bad communicator, which I agree. And so I've been working on this for many, many years around over 10 years. I've been working on how, like you said, the muscle memory, how to be a better communicator and how to do it in a way that it flows.

25:03So I can't wait to read the book. I can't wait to read Loving Assertiveness. But if people would again touch with you, Omar, they want to learn more about obviously not just the book, but you have workshops and I'm sure it sounds like a lot of education. How can they do so? And Daniel, do you mind if I say two minutes about what your wife said to you just before I answer that question? Because I just want to just say to your wife, okay, that could you tell me what about my communication frustrates you the most? I don't want a diagnosis whether I'm good or bad. What is it you wish I would do that I don't do?

25:42And whatever she says, just repeat it back until she says, yeah, that's it. And when she's spent, you could tell her, just say, and would it be okay if I could share with you what I most wish would happen when we interacted. And never with judgment. It's just, just remember this, observations, feelings, and needs. That's it so if you ask her to just be clear about what it is she wish would happen that isn't happening play back to her just something to add on to there i was told i read somewhere i can't remember if i was told i read somewhere to to try and not say like you always like you always forget to get me something at the grocery store or like you always because for some reason it's like very quick to when something happens to want to say, Omar, you always make do this, or you always forget this, even though it's not always.

26:40But then that puts the other person, I feel like it's super defense mode. So, I mean, if you want to comment about that, all I would say is that it should be about observations. So the version of that would be that I'm frustrated that when I think we've agreed, you'll be bringing me something from the store. For example, this last Tuesday didn't happen. Could you share with me what went wrong? Was I unclear? Were you irritated by the request? I just want to understand that. And if they don't hear judgment or a demand, they'll tell you the truth. And it might be, oh, shit, I'm really bad at that.

27:21I need to get better at that. I'm going to work on that. Or it could be, you know, I was so busy and you yelled that out as I was leaving and I had too many other things on my mind and the phone went off, my boss, whatever. And then you can exchange that empathy. But it'll be a moment where it's been paid attention to. So it is true that always, never, but the real thing is no diagnosis. Explore observations and ask questions and just share your feelings. When that happened, I felt that maybe my request wasn't important enough. you know, and could you, could you tell me how I could put that request across in a way that it might land better?

28:05Well, you are right. Because on Tuesday I did forget because I got that phone call Omar. So I don't know you, you must be inside my head right now seeing what my thoughts are, but no, I, I super appreciate this. I had a great time. I thought a lot, like if people get this, I don't know what the divorce rates are probably 50, 60%. I don't even, it could be higher at this point. A lot of people aren't even in relationships. They don't even want to get married because I don't think they even want to go through what they feel might be challenging. I think if they get this and we all learn to communicate in a more effective manner, like what you're saying and leveraging this empathy and these things that you're mentioning, I think divorce rates will go down.

28:49People have better marriages, better relationships. I think you can change the world. The answer to your question is, the website is www.3-s, as in Sam, dash consulting.com. And when you do 3-s-consulting.com, the link to the book on Amazon will come up. There'll be a link to an upcoming workshop. And certainly people can connect with me, reach out to me. This is the sixth book that I put out there, But the first one on this topic, we do have a substack for people who insist that they must have a sneak preview. But read the book. It's been a labor of love. And it's a homage to Marshall, who created nonviolent communication to the founders of NLP, with whom I worked, with a man called M.

29:45Scott Peck, who was an author of a book called The Road Less Traveled. He was my mentor for 10 years and his foundation for community encouragement. And so a lot of wisdom, if there is wisdom there, I have truly been fortunate to sit on the shoulders of giants. Okay, I have another question, because you just mentioned NLP. I feel like, you know, Tony Robbins, there's a lot of people that have talked about things, I feel like they mentioned NLP. And so many people all of a sudden started talking about NLP. And I know what it means, but I don't really know what it means. But from the father of NLP, what did you learn about what it actually is and how it's really implemented?