658. This Is Your Brain on Supplements

19:14Marty Makary:Here is one of our listeners, Danielle Douglas. Hi.

19:18Stephen J. Dubner:As a 44-year-old emergency medicine physician, my brain needed to be a Ferrari and not a Toyota, and it wasn't anymore. I was doing everything right, or so I thought. But as I worked in the busiest ER in San Diego County during a COVID pandemic, homeschooled three children, and worked out like a triathlete to cope with all the stress, my nutrient stores were depleted and cortisol levels completely strained. Through lab testing, I realized my stress vitamins and minerals like magnesium and B vitamins were in the toilet. Fortunately, through supplementation with GMP NSF certified supplements and obtaining them through well-vetted distributors, I was able to get my brain back to functioning at optimum levels.

20:00Marty Makary:A lot of the listeners we heard from say they're using creatine to boost their brain power. Here's Peter Cohen. Yeah, so creatine is, it's not really part of medical care, but it's something that can help a specific type of athletic performance. If one's doing repetitive weightlifting, for example, taking creatine can slightly improve one's ability to recover in between sets. Now, while that is well established, creatine is often marketed as if it'll have some sort of cognitive benefits, and there's no robust data whatsoever to support that claim. Has anyone tried that you know of? With creatine, I believe there's been a few small studies.

20:43And usually when you have just a few small studies, you can publish the ones that look promising. But with creatine, even the very small studies are not suggestive enough. Okay. What about choline? Choline makes a little more sense because it's a precursor of acetylcholine. And that's something that gets low in Alzheimer's disease. So it makes some sense that let's put something that can get converted in the body into something that you might be deficient in when you have memory loss. But with choline, I know of no studies that have demonstrated at all that giving choline will improve memory or function.

21:25How about ginkgo?

21:26Marty Makary:And I'd love you to get into the ginkgo evaluation of memory study, if you could. Ginkgo biloba has been carefully investigated because it was probably the leading botanical supplement that was thought to potentially have cognitive benefits or prevent memory loss. And this idea goes back probably thousands of years, right? Absolutely. Chinese and others have been using it. So a lot of NIH funds has been spent on trying to understand, you know, can ginkgo biloba preserve or improve memory? And the studies are negative, basically. There's no difference between ginkgo biloba and placebo. The nice thing for a supplement manufacturer, though, is that you can take a study like that that definitively has shown that ginkgo biloba does not prevent memory loss and completely ignore it when it comes to your label.

22:21So then you can just put ginkgo biloba into your supplement and then sell it as memory enhancement. This is how crazy the current advertising marketing environment is. There's just a disconnect between how supplements can be promoted and the proven benefits. And that's because the law basically gives manufacturers a pathway to communicate just about any health benefit to consumers without having to demonstrate anything that their product actually works or even have studied their product in humans.

22:53Marty Makary:What about omega-3s? Yeah, so with omega-3, what's very interesting is that in cohort studies, so groups of people who have diets that are very rich in omega-3, a lot of fatty fish and other omega-3 foods, there's a lower incidence of Alzheimer's disease in those populations. So it's a natural thought. But in this situation with omega-3, it has been studying, I believe, up to five years in duration and no benefit of omega-3 supplementation to improve cognitive function. What does that say about the difference between ingesting an ingredient that's naturally occurring in a food versus a supplement version.

23:34Marty Makary:Right. It probably says a lot because this reductionist approach to nutrition might not be the most beneficial. So if we're just reducing herring to its omega-3 content, there's a lot of other things going on, exciting things when it comes to herring. Talk about that. Is it about the cell structure? Is it about the other components? What are the exciting things in herring? You know, I'm not a herring analytical chemist expert, but I would assume that if we took a deep dive into the chemistry of herring, we would find thousands of different compounds. Some of those would be, you know, fascinating to study.

24:12And they're all combined together. With food, there's also the tradition of how we eat it, right? Like with the herring, how is it preserved? Is it in vinegar or the sugar? And how do those preservatives affect either positively or negatively? our health. And then of course, what are we putting the herring on, right? So a lot's going on there.

24:32Marty Makary:But you're a herring fan from a nutritional perspective. Oh yeah, definitely. I think the more fish we can get in our diet, the better. Can you talk for just a minute about the relationship between modern supplement taking, especially botanicals and things like that, and the development of medicines generally? How do you think about knowing what's valuable and what's not from the natural world versus the pharmaceutical world. I think that what we've learned from decades of high quality studies is that it's really the details that matter. It's not so much the origin of something. Did it come from a lab or did it come from a plant?

25:12It's what are the precise components in that health product? If there's more than one, what's the ratio of those? If there's one, precisely how much there is? How is that ingredient or ingredients absorbed into the body. And then once that's standardized, we can understand its health effects. There is no clear distinction between pharmaceutical drugs and botanical preparations. Red yeast rice is a great example. Red yeast rice is a fermented rice product. Kind of like making beer, you combine yeast with the rice and make red yeast rice. and one of the fermentation byproducts, there's a compound called monoclon K and that compound is precisely the same chemical as lovastatin, which is a statin drug.

26:02That's a perfect example of this overlap between precisely the same chemical and we've done research on a similar plant alkaloid like that called galantamine where it's found in plants and has been part of some traditional botanical remedies. those plants have. And it's also isolated, synthesized, and used as pharmaceutical drugs. So there's no real distinction between these. But I would say that unless you're standardizing the production of something, you really can't understand its long-term health effects.

26:37Marty Makary:This is a subtle but important point that Cohen is making. Drugs that have gained FDA approval, including over-the-counter drugs like ibuprofen, fall into what is called evidence-based medicine. Many supplements, meanwhile, fall into what you might call gossip-based medicine. You may hear from a friend that a certain supplement worked great for them, but you don't know what else they're taking. You don't really know what it did for them. Remember, the placebo effect is powerful. You also don't know if maybe 10 other friends took the same supplement and found that it didn't help. or maybe even harm them.

27:16Marty Makary:Medicine and nutrition science are hard enough even when you have good data. With supplements, it can be hard to even know the dose you're getting. The drug that Cohen mentioned a minute ago, galantamine, is an FDA-approved prescription treatment for mild to moderate dementia caused by Alzheimer's. According to the FDA, galantamine isn't legally supposed to be sold as a dietary supplement, but it is as a non-prescription treatment for memory retention and cognitive function. Peter Cohen and his colleagues analyzed pharmaceutical versions of the drug versus several supplement versions. They found that the pharma versions were properly labeled.

27:58Marty Makary:They contained between 98 and 104 percent of the quantity listed on the labels. In other words, what it says is what you get. The supplement versions, meanwhile, ranged from less than 2 % to 110 % of the quantity listed on the label. And they found that a third of the supplements were contaminated with bacteria associated with gastrointestinal illness. So if you are in favor of supplements, you might like to move them into the evidence-based realm. coming up after the break. Is that going to happen? I'm Stephen Dubner. This is the Freakonomics Radio Guide to Getting Better. We'll be right back.

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30:34Marty Makary:So the physician Peter Cohen is skeptical of many dietary supplements, but he does use some in taking care of his patients. The physician Peter Atiyah is also skeptical, and he too makes room for exceptions.

30:50Peter Attia:There are a handful of supplements that I take. And by extension, there are a handful of supplements that many of our patients take. Name them. I think for most people, magnesium is a really logical choice. There are different forms that you can take magnesium in. You can take it in a form that is really rapidly absorbed. You can take it in a form that is very slowly absorbed. And they actually achieve totally different things. And so we don't consider those mutually exclusive. There's also a form that is bound to another molecule that enables transfer across the blood-brain barrier. And there's reasonable, though, because it's only a supplement, it's not subject to the same level of testing, but there's reasonable evidence that it's got some protection in the brain and augments sleep.

31:31Peter Attia:So you have three completely different types of magnesium, and I think there's benefit in all three of those. I think another supplement that makes sense for almost everybody is creatine monohydrate. There's physical advantages to that. There's cognitive advantages to that. Are they massive? No, they're not massive, but you always have to weigh the cost, both economic and risk, of taking something to the potential benefit. And so if you do it on an ROI basis, I actually think creatine makes a ton of sense. I would say those are probably the two closest supplements that I would put in the almost no-brainer camp.

32:03Peter Attia:I would put EPA and DHA, which are the two omega-3 fatty acids found in fatty fish. Most people, maybe 90 % of people, 80 % of people probably don't consume enough fatty fish to achieve the levels that we believe. And when I say we, I don't mean me personally. I mean the epidemiologists and people who study this that we think produce the optimal levels of cardiovascular and brain health. And so for most people, myself included, taking a high-quality EPA and DHA supplement is a great way to supplement the amount of fish we eat. Maybe another one I would throw in there is for jet lag. I think melatonin can be very helpful.

32:42Peter Attia:I'm not a fan of it at all for daily use because it does seem to downregulate endogenous production of melatonin. But when you're hopping, in my experience, more than six or seven hours of a time zone, melatonin can be a wonderful tool to help reset circadian rhythm, along with another supplement that I only use during those periods, which is called phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine suppresses cortisol output from the adrenal glands and also is just a fantastic tool when you're trying to go to bed.

33:15Marty Makary:When you describe cognitive advantages to some of these supplements, how would you assess the evidence for those advantages compared to the evidence of some pharmaceutical, maybe it's a GLP-1 agonist that we hear a lot about these days. How does one body of evidence compare to the next?

33:33Peter Attia:Oh, it's not even close, Stephen. The advantage that we would have when assessing the benefits of a GLP-1 agonist are so much more because the studies are so much larger. They're so much more robust. It's interesting that you brought up GLP-1s because everybody understands the efficacy that these drugs have when it comes to weight loss. and type 2 diabetes. But there are all sorts of sub-analyses that are looking at other questions, right? How does this drug stack up in patients with heart failure? How does this drug stack up in patients with MCI or mild cognitive impairment? It is that indication of MCI that I think is the most interesting right now.

34:08Peter Attia:Because the jugular question is not, does a person who is obese, overweight, or have type 2 diabetes who takes this drug and therefore ameliorates those conditions, does that improve mci the answer is obviously yes it does because anything that takes weight off and improves insulin sensitivity improves cognitive function the more important question and the multi-billion dollar question is independent of the weight loss and the improving insulin sensitivity do these things improve cognition and if the answer to that is yes we would elevate this drug from its current status into the pantheon of what we call gyro protective agents right something that is actually targeting some of the fundamental metrics of aging and not doing it circuitously through weight loss or insulin sensitivity, all of which are important, but they're very distinct questions.

34:59Marty Makary:What is your sense based on what you've read and learned so far about the mechanisms by which there's a cognitive boost to the GLP-1s?

35:07Peter Attia:We actually recently did a podcast on this. About twice a year, we do a podcast called, what is it called? I think we call it Proven, Promising, Fuzzy, Nonsense. It's like we basically take a bunch of drugs and supplements and run them through our framework and put them into five categories. So GLP-1s came out in that assessment as promising. And promising is a high bar for us. Like we're sticklers. And where I landed on that, Stephen, was the data look pretty good at the moment, but the definitive study still hasn't been done. I don't see any evidence that a person with normal cognition, normal risk factors, insulin sensitive and of normal weight would benefit from them.

35:48Marty Makary:So if you were to think about comparing what is known on the market today as brain supplements or supplements that offer cognitive benefits of some kind, if you compare that whole kind of murky pool of supplements to the cognitive benefit effects of GLP-1s, how do you think about those two pools of treatments differently?

36:12Peter Attia:So these are spoken about in very different circles. the discussion that you and i are having about glp1s is the discussion that's happening with physicians and scientists and these are really interesting questions i don't pay that much attention to the podcast sphere but in podcast land we're really talking about biohacking and those people are talking about everything from lion's mane to beeswax to all sorts of god knows what there's virtually no overlap in those discussions that i can see i've spent a lot of time looking at both of these things. And from where I sit and have no bias because I couldn't care less, I'm just interested in what works.

36:53Peter Attia:I think that there's potentially a signal there on the GLP-1 side. My intuition, though, is it is not a cognitive enhancer. It is something that prevents decline in the susceptible individual.

37:05Marty Makary:So when we think about brain function and especially brain supplements, it seems to be mostly older people who are concerned about improving or stopping the loss of memory or maybe forestalling Alzheimer's and things like that. But as you're now talking about the relationship between cognitive function and physical function, I wonder if you can talk a bit about what's included in cognitive function as you see it. As a physician, primarily, what's the relationship between cognitive function and mental health? What's the relationship between cognitive function, not just memory, but things like decision-making and so on?

37:41Peter Attia:We think of cognitive function broadly in terms of executive function, which would include decision-making, memory, which is both short and long-term, and then there are lots of subtypes of memory, visual, spatial memory, et cetera, and then processing speed. Those are the three pillars of cognition, and they can all be measured. Unfortunately, we don't have great off-the-shelf ways to measure this. There aren't amazing apps that do this, but a really good clinician who's well-versed in how to do cognitive testing can measure and assess your performance on those domains. We still have to accept the fact that as we age, our cognitive performance declines just as our physical performance does.

38:19Peter Attia:So my VO2 max is getting lower by decade. My muscle mass, my strength, these are decreasing by decade. And so too is my cognitive performance. So then the question becomes, what can I do to offset that? What I really want people to understand is all the supplement stuff you're doing is a little bit of rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. You earn the right to worry about that stuff once you have the stuff that provides 90 % of cognitive function taken care of. And that's going to come down to sleep, exercise, nutrition, intellectual and social engagement, and learning. These are the pillars of maintaining cognitive function.

39:01Peter Attia:And if you never took a supplement for the rest of your life, but you adhered to maximizing your participation in those domains, you would be incredible.

39:12Marty Makary:So you said that a lot of the spending on supplements is equivalent to flushing the money down the toilet. You, however, are an investor in a couple of companies that make supplements, yes? Yes. These include Element and AG1, both of which are pretty well known. Walk me through those. Start with Element. Describe what it is and why you invest in it. And I assume that it's not in the category of supplements that you'd be better off flushing your money down the toilet, correct?

39:37Peter Attia:Correct. So Element is a company that makes an electrolyte drink. It's effectively sodium chloride salt with flavoring. This was actually a topic I was never really interested in until four years ago when I had a couple of repeated bouts of lightheadedness, including one that resulted in a really significant face plant that required multiple stitches to a bunch of lacerations across my face. And when I got home, this happened while I was traveling and my doctor took my blood pressure and sort of confirmed what I had always known, which is I had sort of low blood pressure and it was exacerbated by things like traveling or for example, if I gave blood or if I was exercising a lot, the obvious solution to that is to hydrate more.

40:23Peter Attia:And that got me really deep down the rabbit hole of hydration. I basically bought every product on the market. And the one that I liked that I found palatable enough was Element. I reached out to the founder of the company and made a small investment. And I want to be clear, I don't think there's anything magical about any electrolyte drink. What you're really trying to do is identify a way that you can easily deliver something on a frequent basis. And so what you're titrating towards is compliance at the lowest cost. If I were to drink more water and put more salt on my food, I could achieve a similar benefit.

40:58Peter Attia:Yeah. So why not do that? It's just going to be much harder to be compliant than to take a little simple pack, throw it in my bottle every time I go to the gym, which is every day.

41:07Marty Makary:And then what about AG1? Same thing. What is it?

41:10Peter Attia:How'd you get involved in it and what does it do for you? AG1 is effectively a slightly overkilled multivitamin that combines a whole bunch of nutrients that you would otherwise be getting if you're eating a great diet that's well balanced. So I think of it as kind of a belt and suspenders for me because, I don't know, maybe four days a week, Stephen, I can hit the metrics and I'm eating a really great diet. And on the days I don't, I'm totally fine overdoing it a little bit and making sure I have a little bit more.

41:39Marty Makary:So how do you think about the difference between getting these ingredients or nutrients into your body via food versus via supplement?

41:48Peter Attia:I think it entirely depends on which supplement we're talking about and therefore it's case by case. For sodium, I don't think it matters if you're putting salt on your food versus consuming sodium in something else, provided you're not consuming a bunch of other junk with it. for the fruits and vegetables and the phytochemicals and things like that that you're trying to replace, I would say you are assuredly better off getting it in food because by definition, if you're consuming it in food, you're getting a ton of fiber and you're getting water as well. And you can't replace the fiber in a supplement at nearly the same efficacy.

42:20Peter Attia:If we were going to talk about protein, I would say the same thing. I think you're always better off getting your protein in food, but I'm sitting here supplementing protein with a protein shake or a protein bar most days because otherwise I'm just not going to hit my protein target. So the answer I think is it's usually better to achieve these things in food. And for some people, life is straightforward enough that they can always do that. My patients live in the real world and despite their luxuries, even most of them have a hard time day in and day out hitting their targets. And I know that if my patients have to rely on supplementation here and there?

42:58Peter Attia:Probably most people do. One of the things I always tell somebody is, you know, make sure anybody who's selling you anything has a really clear line of conflict disclosures around. You've mentioned a couple of things that I'm involved in, and my patients are very clear on where my conflicts are, and we're not actually selling anything to anybody. So I always think it's important that people understand that, that you have to be aware of a doctor you go to see who turns around and sells you an unlimited supply of supplements.

43:30Marty Makary:Coming up after the break, where is the FDA heading with supplement regulation? I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

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46:08Marty Makary:When you think about brain supplements, you're really thinking about the brain. and the brain, as much as we love it and appreciate it, the fact is we really don't know it all that well. It reminds me of the ocean. It's right there in front of us. We use it all the time, but there is still so much to learn. So where do most people learn about brain function and brain supplements? When we asked Freakonomics Radio listeners where they get their information, the results were pretty much what you would expect. a wide-ranging blend of physician advice, reading, podcasts, social media, friends, and friends of friends online.

46:50Marty Makary:On Instagram, there are roughly 12 million posts with the hashtag supplements. There are millions more on TikTok. For Peter Atiyah, this is frustrating.

47:00Peter Attia:Let's be honest. Our species is becoming lazier and lazier. If I sat here and gave you an hour-long dissertation on how much I could improve your brain health by exercising. And then you heard some guy talk for 30 seconds on a TikTok video about how you could take this pill. Most people just want the pill. They don't have the time, energy, or desire to kick the tires on it and realize that stuff Atiyah was talking about is going to make like a 50 % improvement in my cognition. And what this other guy's talking about is going to do nothing, but he sounds better and it's easier.

47:37Marty Makary:And here again is Peter Cohen, the Sherlock Holmes of the supplement world. It does seem like the current social media environment makes it very difficult to get accurate and useful tips and advice to stay at the forefront. But this isn't just a problem that started with TikTok. I'm sort of reminded of the evolution of The Dr. Oz Show. Dr. Mehmet Oz is a cardiothoracic surgeon who now runs the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services. He got his start on big-time TV as a recurring guest on The Oprah Winfrey Show. I think if we were to have access to those early tapes on Oprah, I think his advice would have been spot on.

48:21Terrific. Increase your vegetables, get more exercise, avoid empty calories, you name it. But then something happens when you need to produce a show or more a week and your audience is growing and growing and advertisers want more and more and more and more. And it's hard to say every day, like, get some more exercise, eat some more fruits and vegetables, do more home cooking.

48:44Marty Makary:In 2011, the Dr. Oz show was preparing an episode about the HCG diet. HCG is short for human chorionic gonadotropin, which is a hormone produced by women during pregnancy. For the diet, patients take HCG and eat only 500 calories a day. That is roughly one-fourth the daily calories recommended for a typical adult woman. When he did his show on that, he asked me to come as a guest. And I assumed it was going to be a show that was good about debunking this weight loss practice. And instead, I felt a bit ambushed because I remember one of these weight loss docs came out of her stretch limo with multiple patients outside the studio.

49:29And the whole show was then designed to say, hey, you know, maybe there's something there. Maybe you should give it a try. What did you say?

49:36Marty Makary:Did you just say, well, I haven't seen any evidence that this works and therefore we should go slow? Or were you a little bit more aggressive than that? I forget what I actually said because I was so surprised by the situation. But I might have said something like, if you starve yourself, you will lose weight. in starving yourself for a diet is not healthy. That can lead to gallstone formation, a lot of other problems. So I don't recommend this. I remember that there were two patients who had actually suffered some sort of adverse effects after they had started this HCG diet. But instead of being next to us on stage, they were out in the audience.

50:14But I do remember that I chatted with them, connected with them, and commiserated with them as the show was going on.

50:19Marty Makary:Now, what you're describing is something that I've observed for a long time. I mean, it's probably been happening since the history of humankind, which is that the bolder predictions, positive or negative, are the ones that tend to get our attention. It could be in the realm of politics, CNN or Fox News or MSNBC. And if I come on and say, you know, this and that about the end of the Republic or fascism, I'm going to likely be considered a good and spicy guest and I will be invited back. However, Peter Cohen comes on there and says, well, yeah, if you starve yourself, you're going to lose weight.

50:54Marty Makary:I'm guessing you weren't invited back, at least as an advocate of that kind of thing, correct? Correct. No one on the HCG circuit reached out to me again. The FDA has approved HCG as a prescription drug to treat female infertility and some other conditions. Companies that sell it as an over-the-counter weight loss remedy have received warning letters from the FDA and the FTC. Warning letters are one way the FDA tries to exert its regulatory reach over supplements and make them more reliable. Peter Cohen has some other ideas. There are some very thoughtful ways that we could improve the quality of these products.

51:35If the political will was there, we could also quickly get a handle on the health claims. So the idea that's been floated around is to have an FDA registry of legal permitted dietary supplement products. For example, if a product label came to the FDA and it contained ingredients that were not legal supplement ingredients, the FDA would simply not post it. If there were suspicious things, maybe the FDA could require additional testing. Or maybe the FDA could require additional testing of all products before they posted it on their website by a high-quality third party. If there was political will, they could say, listen, we're not going to put any health claims on our website that are not supported by science.

52:24And then requiring that that's the only information that can be available on the label. If you were to do that, then consumers could make more accurate decisions about what to put in their body.

52:33Marty Makary:So what direction do you see the political will moving in at this moment? Yeah, just the opposite. The manufacturers are advocating for more ability to make more health claims. And somehow to figure out a way to get the FDA's name on the label so the health claim actually looks vetted by the FDA. And how does that intersect with what you know about the worldview of Bobby Kennedy Jr.? That would be very consistent with my understanding of how he's, you know, perceived supplements as if this whole world of supplements is beneficial. in the whole world of pharmaceuticals is poisoning us. And that's nonsense since there's no real distinction between these two categories at all.

53:16Except a lower burden of proof in one case.

53:19Marty Makary:Right, exactly. But on the other hand, what I've been hearing is that supplement manufacturers particularly have been chagrined by the lack of movement in that direction so far in the second Trump administration. Is it coming and we just haven't seen it yet? Or is it maybe not coming? Well, I think part of the problem for the manufacturers to get excited is that they have had it so good for so many years. They've basically had a situation where the FDA has not been enforcing the minimal bits of the law that do exist, that they could go after some particularly hazardous products or they could go after adulterated products.

53:55And the FDA seems to be about choosing enforcement discretion, which is their way of saying we're just not going to enforce the law for years.

54:08Marty Makary:Is that really the FDA's position? To find out, we called up one last physician.

54:14Stephen J. Dubner:Marty McCary, commissioner of the FDA.

54:17Marty Makary:McCary has been on Freakonomics Radio a few times in the past. He was a surgical director and health policy scholar at Johns Hopkins. He's also written a few books, including Blind Spots, When Medicine Gets It Wrong, and What It Means for Our Health. Running the FDA is his first job in government. I asked him now about a proposed change to what is called the GRAS standard, or generally recognized as safe, which applies to food and dietary supplements. Because remember, the FDA treats supplements as a category of food, not medicine.

54:51Stephen J. Dubner:Yeah, we've announced that we are challenging the GRAS standard, which basically says food companies can put a new chemical in food if they generally recognize it as safe. And we're saying, look, guilty until proven innocent. You have to show us that something is safe if you want to add a newly engineered chemical into the U.S. food supply that children are going to eat.

55:14Marty Makary:So the supplement market, it's really exploding. And it is remarkable to me how unregulated that industry is. I wonder what your position is on that and whether you think the FDA should be doing more. We have to look at all of it.

55:28Stephen J. Dubner:We have to look at every aspect. Now, for example, we know that if you drink a can of soda, the caffeine can have a slight positive impact on your short-term memory. Now, are we going to crack down on a social media influencer who says, you know, I drank this caffeinated drink to help me with my memory? We have to prioritize what is safeguarding the public versus what's simply cracking down for cracking down's sake. And so we've got to look at all of it and then come up with a priority list of where to start.

56:09Marty Makary:It turns out that the FDA's priority list is pretty long. So next time on the show, we will cover as much of that as we can.

56:19Stephen J. Dubner:The FDA today is not going to be an FDA in a receive-only mode. We're not going to be stingy librarians. We're going to go into the pipeline, find out what sounds promising, and bring that to the forefront.

56:33Marty Makary:That's next time on the show, a full conversation with Commissioner McCary. Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too. And if you found this episode useful or interesting, please tell a friend about Freakonomics Radio. That is the single best way to support our show. You can also leave a rating or review on your podcast app. And we can be reached at radio at Freakonomics.com. Freakonomics Radio is produced by Stitcher and Renbud Radio. You can find our entire archive on any podcast app. Also at Freakonomics.com, where we publish transcripts and show notes. This episode was produced by Alina Kullman, with help from Dalvin Abawaji, and edited by Gabriel Roth.

57:15Marty Makary:It was mixed by Jasmine Klinger, with help from Jeremy Johnston. We also had recording help from Bill Pollack. Special thanks to all our listeners who shared their firsthand supplement experience. experience. The Freakonomics Radio Network staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Eleanor Osborne, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Elaria Montenacourt, Teo Jacobs, and Zach Lipinski. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers, and our composer is Luis Guerra. So wait a minute, you're saying the New York Times asked you for nutrition tips. You said make your own chicken stock and granola, and they just cut the granola part.

57:51Nope, they cut both. They said, we want you to stick to the area that your expertise on, What's your supplement tip? But the reason they said that was because they don't like my granola tip.

58:07Stephen J. Dubner:The Freakonomics Radio Network. The hidden side of everything.

58:15Stephen J. Dubner:Stitcher.

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