The Brilliant Mr. Feynman (Update)

21:57Ralph Leighton:Leverage match limited by state law.

22:05Doing hard things doesn't always look dramatic. Sometimes it's an early workout, a long hike, or a full day outside where quitting feels easier than pushing through. Real life hard things. That's exactly what Noon Hydration is made for. It's real deal, activated hydration built to help keep people moving through the moments that ask a little more from them. Noon hydration tablets deliver clean ingredients and optimized electrolytes that hydrate better than water alone, especially when you're sweating, moving, or pushing through a long day. Drop one into a bottle and it dissolves quickly, tastes great, and comes in a simple, no-mess tube you can take anywhere.

22:39And at less than$1 per serving, it's easy to make part of your routine. Noon is made for people who show up, value growth, and find joy in the effort. It helps support clear focus, steady energy, and the mindset to take on whatever comes next. Shop Noon Hydration at NoonLife.com. That's N-U-U-N Life.com. And fuel your next hard thing.

23:01Ralph Leighton:Chapter 5. Feynman the Professor. The word most commonly attached to Richard Feynman would seem to be genius. That is the title of the definitive Feynman biography published in 1992 by James Glick. Feynman himself did not like the label. He maintained there was nothing exceptional about his intelligence. So how did he become a giant of theoretical physics? Here's how Feynman put it in a BBC documentary called Fun to Imagine.

23:33Michelle Feynman:You asked me if an ordinary person, by studying hard, would get to be able to imagine these things like I imagine. Of course, I was an ordinary person who studied hard. There's no talent, a special miracle ability to understand quantum mechanics or a miracle ability to imagine electromagnetic fields that comes without practice and reading and learning and study. You take an ordinary person who's willing to devote a great deal of time and study and work and thinking and mathematics, then he's become a scientist. The physicist John Preskill. Feynman officially taught an undergraduate class at Caltech only for two years.

24:18And those were captured by some now famous books called the Feynman Lectures on Physics. They're three big red books. Feynman worked very hard on that. He thought very deeply about how to organize the material. And they're rather extraordinary. I think I didn't really appreciate them until I was a more senior physicist. When he gave a talk or a lecture, he was kind of mesmerizing and really grabbed your attention.

24:50Michelle Feynman:I have the privilege of calling your attention today to what is probably one of the most far-reaching generalizations of the human mind. And while he spoke, things would seem extraordinarily clear and obvious. and many people had the experience that then afterward, when you tried to reconstruct the arguments, you'd find it very difficult. Somehow he made it seem easy, but there were nuances that he made seem natural when he spoke of them, but then when you tried to follow the path again, we're actually very subtle. And what is this law of gravitation? It is that every object in the universe attracts every other with a force proportional to the mass of each and varying inversely as a square of the distance between them.

25:39Michelle Feynman:If you like mathematics, you can write that same thing as an equation. The blackboard choreography would be very carefully thought out. They would end exactly on time. They had been prepared with great care. So he really put everything into it. The filmmaker Christopher Sykes. I turned up at Caltech for this lecture and I have to say it was extraordinary because Feynman, I came in and there were about, I don't know, 16 or 20 students all wearing shorts and trainers with their feet up on the tables and stuff and none of them were taking any notes. Feynman was lecturing and I couldn't of course understand anything, it was in a really high level quantum physics, but towards the end he looked up at the clock and he said look we've only got eight minutes left.

26:28And this particular problem we're talking about, he said, there's two ways of tackling it. One's very elegant and clear and easy. And the other one is just incredibly messy. He said, but we've only got a little time left, so I'll just deal with the incredibly messy one. And I thought, well, this was great. Although that was the only official undergraduate class that Feynman taught at Caltech. There was an informal class of which he taught for many years. It was not in the catalog. It was not documented anywhere. The freshmen called it physics X. It was intended especially for freshmen. And by word of mouth, it would become known that Feynman was going to be in a certain classroom at a certain time and that you could come and interact with him.

27:20Not in the catalog, No grades. What was it? It was Feynman standing in front of the blackboard saying, ask me anything. And there were rules. The rules were, don't ask me about coursework. Don't ask me how to do this problem in such and such a course. Don't ask me about somebody's paper. I haven't read it. I don't care about it. Don't ask me about somebody's theorem. I don't know that either. I can't tell you. Ask me about trying to understand something. It doesn't matter what it is. Everything is interesting. My colleague Kip Thorne remembers that when he was a freshman, that must have been around 1958, he heard the rumor.

28:03He went to the rumored room at the rumored time and Feynman was there. And he says, okay, what do you want to talk about today? And somebody says, oh, let's talk about waves on Mars. Where that came from, I have no idea. So he starts to talk about waves on Mars. Well, let's say there's not really water on Mars, but let's suppose there is. Maybe there were oceans before. But the gravity is different than Earth. So that means water waves will propagate at a different speed, and he worked that out. But another thing, the atmosphere is thinner, so there's less wind, and that's not going to work up, you know, such high waves blowing across the surface of the water.

28:41How high will the waves be? And he worked that out. And Kip came away from this enormously inspired. You know, you can just look at nature and you ask questions and you can calculate answers. Seamus Blackley. I don't think Feynman was trying to teach students who were not going to understand what he was saying. He wasn't trying to reach out in an inclusive way and elevate everyone. OK, Caltech is very hard on their undergraduates, right? There's like a Lord of the Flies thing going on.

29:13Ralph Leighton:In the 60s, it was even worse. It's a cultural thing that Caltech struggles with to this day. And those lectures are built for those people who are going to go somewhere. And those were the people that Feynman was interested in. I don't mean to make him out to be such a prick, but I think that he was really interested in the really bright students who asked really bright questions that got him thinking about stuff. Now, that said, he obviously spent a huge amount of time in his career communicating ideas in a very clear way to general audiences. But I think those are two separate things. Because of the success of science, there is a kind of, I think, a kind of pseudoscience that social science is an example of a science which is not a science.

30:01Michelle Feynman:They follow the forms. You gather data, you do so and so and so forth, but they don't get any laws. They don't have them found out anything. Maybe someday they will, but it's not very well developed. But what happens is, at an even more mundane level, we get experts on everything that sound like they're sort of scientific. There's all kinds of myths and pseudoscience all over the place. His distaste for social science came from the fact that it just is not a bedrock kind of field. I'm sure if he was talking about that or about economics or something like that, he would say, what is this? Is it something where you have axioms for how people work, and then you're trying to figure out the consequences?

30:45Michelle Feynman:That's kind of more like the way he was doing physics. There are these underlying laws of physics, and then we're working out their consequences. Well, at Caltech, he was a hero right up to the end, admired by his colleagues and by the students. I don't know who worshipped him more. and, you know, that he was an extraordinary person and thinker was appreciated. Now, he was a bit of a narcissist. You know, he was a show-off. He did it in a way which maybe irritated some people, which was also charming. And it's not like he tried to hide it. You know, he thought pretty highly of himself. I mean, he did want to have quirks and to have stories about him.

31:30You know, he really wanted to create this persona. Lisa Randall, and I am a physicist professor at Harvard. I do theoretical particle physics and cosmology. This sounds kind of obnoxious, but if you're smart enough to do particle physics, you're probably smart enough to do other jobs where you make a lot more money, you get a lot more prestige in other ways. So, you know, sort of your currency is, you know, how important you're considered and what you've accomplished and what people think of you. So for some people, that's more important than others. He's a born performer. He clearly liked the adulation.

32:05You know, I think he was a decent guy. And what was really interesting is to read these pages and pages sometimes of letters that people wrote.

32:16Ralph Leighton:That's Michelle Feynman again. The letter is, hello, my name is Gary Furship. At the present time, I'm a junior at UC Berkeley and I'm majoring in physics. I would be interested in hearing your views on the present fields of research and physics. As of now, I'm interested in either plasma, space, or low-temperature physics. I would appreciate it very much if you could send me some information on your current research efforts. My address in Berkeley is... All right, so then he says, I'm sorry, but neither you nor I have the time it would take for me to expound my views on the research being done in physics, and I am interested in all fields.

32:54I mean, it's honest. I don't think he's being mean. It's just, I'm going to tell you like it is. You ask me, I'm going to tell you. I don't have time to solve all your problems. And just FYI, I'm interested in everything. He didn't have a lot of judgment with people, you know. So he went to a topless bar, and he liked watching the girls, and he liked drawing them. And, you know, he would have conversations. And at some point, people were trying to shut the place down because, I don't know, they'd had enough of it or something. And so he showed up in court and said, no, no, this is a fine place.

33:35I go here all the time. Everything's above board. And it could have been also true that the neighbors were right about all of their concerns because ultimately the place did shut down. My point is that he had his own moral compass, which he was very strongly committed to. We had a lot of artist friends that I think were incredibly attractive to him because they were just free thinkers.

34:07I grew up right here. Richard Feynman would come in and sit right here, and my dad would sit over there. Feynman was an ordinary dude. You meet him, you thought he was like some dude off the street in New York. My name is Alan Zorthian, and I am an architect. My dad was Jiraiar Zorthian. He was an artist. That was his main profession. He was very good at it. My father met Richard P. Feynman in the mid-'50s When Feynman was playing bongos at a party and my dad needed to make a big splash, so he was dancing around, and they became good friends. The friendship continued until Richard's death in 1988, and they were very close.

35:02Ralph Leighton:The Zorthian Ranch is in the hills above Pasadena. The land is steep and scrubby. It looks a lot like where they used to shoot MASH, the old TV show with Ellen Alda, which is actually not far away. The ranch itself is a sprawl of farm animals and shaggy dogs, sculptures and mosaics, and buildings quite a bit past their prime. In its heyday, when Jiraiar Zorthian was holding court, the ranch was known for its bohemian vibes and wild parties. Richard Feynman spent a lot of time up here. He and Zorthian had a special relationship. You know, they would argue if they like to express their opinions.

35:43One of the things they're talking about was you scientists don't appreciate beauty. It's a friendly type argument. It went till very late in the evening. And then he went home and he started thinking about it. And he called my dad up and said, well, look, I think the problem is I don't understand what you do and you don't understand what I do. So why don't we educate each other? And then they started doing this thing. And they were serious. They did it. They decided, I don't remember, every other Sunday, I think it was, Feynman would come up. My dad did the first one. He was going to teach Feynman how to draw.

36:15Because Feynman was interested in art. And so he came up. He said my dad was a good teacher. My dad was good. He was positive and stuff. So he started to learn to draw. And he eventually became very good. And then he tried to teach my dad something about physics. because my dad didn't learn a damn thing. Feynman liked the idea that my dad could get women to pose nude, too. So my dad would send him models and stuff like that.

36:40Ralph Leighton:When you read Feynman's own books, you see that he was completely enamored with women. He tells story after story of chasing women in ways that ranged from comic to cruel. In the beginning, he had been madly in love with Arlene, his first wife. But she died from tuberculosis in her 20s, and it's unclear if he ever fully recovered from that. He wrote her a love letter two years after she died. I'll bet you are surprised that I don't even have a girlfriend except you, sweetheart. But only you are left to me. My darling wife, I do adore you. I love my wife. My wife is dead. P.S. Please excuse my not mailing this, but I don't know your new address.

37:26Ralph Leighton:He did get remarried to Mary Louise Bell, whom he met while teaching at Cornell. They were, by all accounts, a poor match. And the marriage lasted just four years. In their divorce, Bell claimed that she was subjected to a variety of cruelties. For years, Feynman had cultivated a reputation as a womanizer of the worst sort. James Glick, in his book Genius, reports that while he was teaching at Cornell, Well, Feynman slept with undergraduates and the wives of graduate students. Here's Charles Mann. He was an old-fashioned sexist. Every woman that we ever talked to about this would say this. But they would also say things.

38:07I know a female physicist who, the way she put it was this. Feynman would do these sexist things like, say, would you give me a cup of coffee? You know, these classic sexist tropes. But she said, I never met a person who helped me understand the physics better. She said, ultimately, I'm a physicist, and that's what counts. Yes, this was annoying, incredibly annoying.

38:31Ralph Leighton:I wanted to slap him. But when he talked to me about physics, I loved it. Lisa Randall. When I was entering the field, I went out of my way to learn the physics of people and to learn as little about their personality as possible. Because I have to say, many times when I found out about the people, I was disappointed. I just felt like I didn't want to know it. I just wanted to focus on the physics itself. Look, you can try to justify it, but the fact is he was proud enough that it becomes the centerpiece of his book. I do think we give people a free pass for things they do to women in ways that we don't give them a free pass and things that happen to other people.

39:05I mean, look, I've been to Caltech recently. I really like being there. It's really fun. But when I took the PSAT, I did very well. And I was sent a pamphlet that said, literally, what's a nice girl like you doing in a place like Caltech? And I thought, wow, that is one place I do not want to go. You know, it's very interesting in this day and age because growing up in the age of the women's movement, a lot of other movements, a lot of it was about not focusing on your identity, being just considered like anyone else. And today's identity politics is very much the opposite. So it's very confusing.

39:40Ralph Leighton:Coming up, how much did Richard Feynman come to regret his reputation? Feynman got the obituary from the LA Times. He was able to read his own obituary. I'm Stephen Dubner. This is Freakonomics Radio. We'll be right back.

40:06Ralph Leighton:Freakonomics Radio is sponsored by USPS. In business, there's no room for guesswork. Every shipment matters. Every deadline counts. That's why reliability is at the core of USPS Ground Advantage. Each package moves through a secure nationwide network tracked from dock to door with affordable upfront pricing and delivery you can depend on. Because knowing your logistics are handled lets you focus on everything else. Visit USPS.com slash Ground Advantage to start shipping with confidence. USPS Ground Advantage. We mean business.

40:42Let's check in on the Serta counting sheep. Why aren't we counted anymore? Well, the all-new Serta Perfect Sleeper has the Q4 support system that helps relieve aches and back pain. We'll never get counted again! Uh, nope. Serta, we make the world's best mattress. Breathe in. Feel the sense of calm that comes from having up to$300 in overdraft protection with GoToBank. Now... Did you say$300? Yes. Now, back to our breathing. So if I overspend my balance, GoToBank has my back up to$300. Yes. Can we breathe out now? Less worries, more zen. With over$300 in overdraft protection. Tap to open an account today.

41:22Eligible direct deposits and opt-in required for overdraft protection. Fees, terms, and conditions apply.

41:31Ralph Leighton:Chapter 6. Feynman, the parent. But Michelle Feynman still lives in Pasadena, not far from the house where she grew up. As a shy seven or eight-year-old, I didn't relish the idea of telling a friend, no, I don't really want to spend the night at your house. And so somehow my dad and I had this conversation and he said, well, I got an idea. We'll have a code. if you say so-and-so wants to know if I can spend the night I'll say no I'm sorry not tonight and then I'll be the bad guy and if you say is it all right or if I ask with myself as the first you know I'm wondering if I can is it okay if I spend the night something like that then I'll give you an honest answer and maybe it's yes maybe it's no but at least we know where we are and honestly he nailed it every single time.

42:28Ralph Leighton:We're speaking with Michelle in the garden of the hotel in Pasadena, where the Freakonomics crew is staying. We chose this hotel, the Huntington, because it is where Michelle's parents were married. On September 24th of 1960, Richard Feynman took Gwyneth Howarth to be his third wife. She was from West Yorkshire, England. How did they meet? They met on a beach in Switzerland because she had aspirations to travel the world. And she thought a fun way, she liked children, and a fun way would be to be an au pair and to live in people's houses and take care of their children and see the world. So she went to France and then to Switzerland and met my dad.

43:15I think he was there for a conference and apparently he said kind of a joke, like, oh, you could come to California and take care of me. And then the next day he saw her again and said, you know, that wasn't, I'm sorry, that was out of line. And she said, no, no, I'll come to California. I'd love to. I'd love to come to America. And that sounds great. They rented a house, completely a platonic relationship. He was in the front of the house, she was in the back, I guess. At some point, he realized that he was falling in love with her. And he thought, no, no, too soon, too fast, too impulsive. So he went to a calendar, and he paged forward about six months, and he marked the date on the calendar and said, if I still feel the same way on this date, I will ask her to marry me.

44:14The Pasadena Freeway is right near here, and the story is they hopped on the freeway right after the wedding, and they ran out of gas. I mean, it's a good litmus test for a relationship. You know, how is this going to work? And to my mom's credit, she just laughed, and, okay, I guess this is how it's going to go. And they were, you know, they were in it.

44:37Ralph Leighton:The Feynmans had two children, Michelle, whom they adopted in 1968, and Carl, who was born to the couple six years earlier. Today, Carl is a computer scientist living near Boston. When I was 17, I didn't get along with my parents great, which was basically the period when I was deciding where to go for college. I wanted to go to one of the schools where they taught AI. And that was MIT, Carnegie Mellon or Stanford. MIT was my first choice. And MIT was the furthest one away. It was on the other side of the country. So I wanted to get away from my parents and, you know, be an independent, faraway guy.

45:18So I moved there. I almost immediately regretted it, being so far away, because my relations with my parents were then improved. But by then I was committed. And by the time I graduated, I had decided that I loved Boston. So I stayed out here. he was a nice man who would tell you how the world worked we'd go for walks after dinner we'd go out on the streets or in the nearby golf course and we'd talk about everything under the sun he'd tell me wonderful stories about his time at the Manhattan Project you know when I was a teenager he would repair his car a lot he would always dive right in he didn't know anything about car repair So we'd dive right in, and then he'd sit back and look at it with his hand on his chin and theorize.

46:08And then dive back in again and, you know, usually make things worse. He did take me to one football game. And after what he said, so what do you think? And I said, I really didn't like that. I don't think I want to go to any more football games. And he was like, oh, thank God. I mean, you know, I was very into science. I read science fiction. I drew lots of pictures of spaceships. I was that kind of kid. And, you know, he thought that was great and took me to Hughes Aircraft, to their rocket factory and stuff like that. It was great as a little kid. I was in that world. I wanted to be, you know, one of those cool people with the short-sleeved white shirts and the black ties.

46:46Yeah, we had a rocket scientist living across the street. Well, he enjoyed being a father, and so we have Gwyneth to thank for that

46:56Ralph Leighton:because she gave him a stable family life. That is Ralph Layton. He is a longtime family friend who was Feynman's writing partner and drumming partner. Carl and Michelle were delights to him, and he learned that each of them liked different things about him. So Carl responded to certain things and Michelle responded to other things. I could just see the happiness and fun when I came over for my Wednesday evening proper meal. I was a stay-at-home dad, and a lot of Feynman's philosophy came out with our kids. You know, just one little saying, which I kept thinking of, is don't take advantage of your position.

47:45So you never say, because I said so. It's better to have that philosophy of ignorance. Like, oh, yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't know the answer to that. Let's go find out. So he was on the curriculum commission, and so they all looked at textbooks and decided that, you know, this one should be approved and this one should not. My mom talked about how passionate he was about it. She said he would be in the basement and it was like an explosion from down below because he would just be incensed by the inane math problems. Like, you know, Johnny sees a star of 3 ,000 degrees. He sees another star of 6 ,000 degrees.

48:26What's the total number? When would you ever need to know any of that in nature? You just wouldn't. But he had a collection of good math textbooks. So I would go down to his study and just, you know, read these math textbooks for high schoolers when I was a little kid. So I learned a lot of math that way. When I was doing math in high school, my dad would look over my shoulder and say, oh, hang on. I got a good way you could do that. I can think of five ways and let me just show you one. and so I would take it to school and go check this out and the teacher did not share my enthusiasm and said well no I mean yes you got the right answer but no that's not what we're doing here and so at a certain point my dad had enough and went to go see the teacher and and I don't think the teacher knew who he was my dad was really really trying to play it cool and just be sort of, you know, I'm Michelle's dad.

49:24And at some point, the guy said something like, you should try reading a math book. And I can just imagine my dad sort of holding it all in. And then at that point, he just couldn't. He just pulled himself up and said, sir, I have written math books. And then I think the counselor told the teacher who my dad was. And the next day, I was not in that class anymore. He didn't mind being a confused old man. We'd be in a restaurant and he'd look at the menu and get out his glasses and be confused in front of the waiter and take a long time. And now the confused old man will look through the menu. You know, he didn't mind being that.

50:07And, you know, at other times, well, he did some pretty impressive stuff. And he wasn't afraid to say, yeah, I did some pretty impressive stuff. When my brother went to MIT, he met a like-minded person, Danny Hillis. Danny and Cheryl Handler were starting a company called Thinking Machines. I worked with him later at Thinking Machines Corporation, and he was clearly very into computation by that point. Very interested all over it.

50:36Michelle Feynman:There are some things that a computer does much better than a human, and you'd better. Remember that if you're trying to compare machines to humans. He felt like physics were kind of tapped doubt that he was past the point of making contributions because both he had changed and the field had changed. And so he was more interested in computing. The machine we were building was called a connection machine. It was a very strange computer. And he figured out a way to get it to do cosines and logarithms and other transcendental functions. It was very poor at multiplication. It was very good at addition and shuffling bits around.

51:11And he figured out a way to do transcendental functions without multiplication, just by using the patterns of the bits to do something extremely clever, whose details I no longer remember.

51:24Ralph Leighton:In 1978, Feynman was diagnosed with abdominal cancer. For the next decade, he had multiple treatments, including surgeries. It was suggested that his cancer may have been caused by exposure to nuclear radiation at Los Alamos. Feynman refused to consider that possibility. Ralph Layton. I got a call from the L.A. Times wondering if he was near death. And I said, well, he's for the moment doing pretty well, but have you written up his obituary already? And they said yes. And I said, oh, wow, would you mind sending it? Could I show it to the chief? and the guy said, okay, but I'm not changing a word of it.

52:10And so Feynman got the obituary from the LA Times. He was able to read his own obituary. You can find it online. And in the first paragraph or second paragraph, he mentioned he had this reputation for skirt chasing or some kind of description of that. And Feynman shook his head and was pretty sad that that would be something mentioned so soon because I think he kind of played it up just to look like, you know, scientists aren't all nerds and, you know, can't get anywhere and whatever. I think there was a lot of sort of image making and then he realized it kind of went too far, but he couldn't change it because the LA Times guy said, my condition is I'm not changing a word.

52:57Ralph Leighton:A few months later, in February of 1988, Feynman died with his family close by. Here were his last words. I'd hate to die twice. It's so boring.

53:12You know, there was something on a blackboard right after he died. They preserved the blackboard for a while, took pictures, and it said, what I cannot create, I do not understand. He liked to construct things from the ground up. That's basically it.

53:29Ralph Leighton:By this time, Gwyneth Feynman was also sick with cancer. So this is Mountain View Cemetery, where my parents bought a plot. They were sick fairly early in my life. They took the whole responsibility of all of that very seriously, and they did their will and they bought a plot where they liked the surroundings and thought this was a beautiful area.

54:08Yep, in loving memory, and then it says Feynman, Richard P. and Gwyneth M. And he has the dates 1918 to 1988 and she's 1934 to 1989.

54:27You know, sooner or later, everyone's going to lose their parents. I'm lucky because there's all this material that I can just, what did his voice sound like? Let me listen to it. You know, I have those recordings. When I read his books, I can hear his voice again.

54:47Michelle Feynman:Well, there's a lot of stories about it, but it's getting late, So we'll let it go at that.

54:59Ralph Leighton:Next time on part three, The Vanishing Mr. Feynman. I said, have you ever tried psilocybin mushrooms? And he said, no. And I asked, would you like to? Feynman quit drinking when he was young. And as much as he was interested in different states of consciousness, he didn't want to do drugs out of fear it would damage his favorite toy, his brain. But when he knew the end was near, he took a trip or two. We'll hear about that. And what would Feynman think about how science works today? One of the sad things that's happened is that the search for truth has become politicized. That's next time on the show.

55:43Ralph Leighton:Until then, take care of yourself. And if you can, someone else too.

56:14Ralph Leighton:to the Library and University Archives at the University of California, Santa Barbara, for their recording of Feynman's Los Alamos From Below lecture, to the Esalen Institute for audio from Feynman's Tiny Machines talk, and to James Glick, author of the Feynman biography, Genius. Also, big thanks to Nicholas Osorio and Music Mind for all the recording help in Pasadena. Our staff also includes Augusta Chapman, Dalvin Abouaji, Ellen Frankman, Elsa Hernandez, Ilaria Montenacourt, Jake Loomis, Jeremy Johnston, Mandy Gorenstein, Peter Madden, and Tao Jacobs. Our theme song is Mr. Fortune by the Hitchhikers, and all the other music you've heard today was composed by Luis Guerra.

56:56Ralph Leighton:As always, thanks for listening.

57:00Michelle Feynman:Oh, that was fun. I haven't talked about Dick Feynman for a long time.

57:09The Freakonomics Radio Network. The hidden side of everything.

57:45You know what's worse than a long wait? Flipping through old magazines in a waiting room. Instead, I power up Chumba Casino. Slots, blackjack, solitaire, roulette, bingo, and more. Boredom doesn't stand a chance. Take a few virtual laps with me. Let's Chumba. Play now at Chumbacasino.com.

58:33Ralph Leighton:or sign up at SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus. Start a free trial today.