2025 Season Review

34:58I mean, anyone metronomically winning anything, I find generally quite boring. I think if it's Sinner that gets injured, I think Alcaraz could really drop off. I think he emotionally and mentally would really struggle without Yannick Sinner in a way that wouldn't happen the other way around. I know he did just fine during Sinner's three-month absence earlier this year. Not amazing, though. But not amazing. Not amazing. He did lose to Davy Goffin. He talked about Sinner a lot. He lost to Davy Goffin and he talked about Yannick Sinner a lot in that time. And you could see the twinkle come back into his eye when Yannick Sinner returned to the tour.

35:45So like I'm sort of constantly preparing myself for this eventuality because it feels inevitable. And I think as much as, you know, I want to live in the moment and in the present and enjoy what we have now. It does. The more I enjoy it, the worse it's going to be when it's hopefully temporarily taken away. But, you know, that's that's tennis, isn't it? It feels like this sort of precarious joy. yeah and look I share a lot of that anxiety as well I kind of want David to come in here and tell us it's all going to be okay in a second but just something that I've been thinking about kind of related to that and hopefully is a positive and also related to what Mary was saying there I do think the general like stability that Alcaraz and Sina have does make them slightly less prone to getting those injuries.

36:41You know, like they're not having to chase. They're kind of obviously in competition with each other, but they can manage their schedules in a way that I think a lot of other players on tour can't quite so much because when they do play, they're so good, they're reaching the latter stages. And they've got these amazing teams in place that know their bodies, know the way they work, all that kind of thing. Obviously, they're susceptible to rolling an ankle or a kind of freak injury. And I live with that anxiety. But in terms of like just an injury that might come with overplaying or overtraining or training in the wrong way, I think they've got such an advantage there on the rest of the field because of how good they are, because of everything they've built up over the last few years.

37:27And I could be wrong, but it doesn't feel like an injury is going to come from that. you know like they're just there's such a security and a and a knowledge to their teams as well as as mary's described and i think the big you know the big three the big four had that as well obviously they all picked up little injuries over the course of of their careers but there was such stability to them and their teams and i think that really did help their longevity in a way okay yeah i will take that that positivity matt david tell us it's all going to be okay it's all going to be okay guys you worry about alcaraz flinging himself around the court though i do i do think he chases too many balls um it was federer who first pointed it out in the first laver cup that alcaraz played where he just said maybe he doesn't need to chase every ball whether it's only not in an exhibition no he sort of said it in a kind of amused way an affectionate way but also there's a serious point there is come on i mean i know we might gasp at some of these gets but you lost the point anyway you might win the odd one or two but maybe save those for when you when your break point up or break point down or something maybe i'm being a killjoy um But that's the one thing that goes through my mind.

38:52The fact that they've put together the coaching teams they have tells me that everything is just designed to be at the top and to be competing against one another, to be getting these tiny fine margins. The fact that they don't have to play all the events because they've realised that for their legacies now, the majors are what count and the record against each other and the ranking and that sort of thing just makes it less likely that they're going to not come to the party at the majors because everything's geared towards them i also think that things can change over maybe over a period of time but it but it's it can feel like not very much time i mean if you go back six eight months ago jack draper looked right there and and i was banging on about art of feast and these guys haven't played for six months you know and and things can change out of sight really but I do think that those two are going to be constant it's going to be up to the others to see if anybody can come through and I mean I know Pam mentioned that Fonseca is too young but wow am I interested to see his next season to see whether there's development that makes you go ah he's figured something out here and and I I'm hopeful that I'm hopeful is it because he's got a hard man haircut that you you you're always encouraging young tennis players to get doesn't hurt for an off season to be going into with one of those okay well while we're on the subject of uh of Carlos Salcaraz and Yannick Sinner, let's hear from Charlie Eccleshire, who shocked us all with his choice of what stood out for him from 2025.

40:42Hi, everyone. It's Charlie Eccleshire here. Hope you're all doing well. This is really tricky, obviously, you know, trying to distill the year into one theme, one moment. And there are inevitably so many to choose from. Madison St. Keyes winning the Australian Open and a news conference after and how open she was about her struggles with her mental health and how inspiring that was. And, you know, on a similar theme, the horribly overused sporting cliche, but that kind of redemption story, seeing Amanda Anasimova, beat Yigashviontek, being there on Ash, you know, just two months after that haunting and horrible double bagel, women of final defeat amazing moments and there were so many others but if i think of the match and you know the kind of singular moment that i know i'll always remember and will always say i was there for um and apologies because it's boring but it is the french open men's final uh you know being sound chatria for all five and a half hours of it um and there are a couple of moments that really stick with me well there are lots actually but the moment where Alcraz wins the match with that forehand pass down the line but also just a bit earlier in the tie break I think it moved in four love up drop shot draw Sinner in and it's a forehand volley cross court passing shot and at that moment you kind of knew it was done and you knew as well by that point that you were part of something pretty special um you know that this match had become the center of the sporting universe and and more than that you know it transcended sport it was one of those matches that everyone seemed to be watching um and yeah it's kind of rare that you know you have a day or a match or a moment or whatever that you know you'll remember for the rest of your life but that that was one of them you know that is something i know i will be boring people in years to come by being like yeah yeah no is that that match yeah yeah yeah yeah it's pretty good um but i will and i make no apologies for that you know because it instantly went into that pantheon of kind of fedor nadal 2008 wimbledon or borg macro 1980 um and it and it ties in i guess to a theme um you know if that's the moment then the theme is kind of how much it matters this is something we've been talking about throughout the year or certainly the second half of the year how much it matters that you have the scope for these incredibly high highs with with Sinner and Alcaraz but then the rest of the men's tour can be kind of boring and there's not loads else going on that that's sort of been a tension I've been wrestling with for the last few months I guess and and maybe this exercise is quite helpful you know with a bit of distance thinking what what is it what's something I'm really going to take away and and that's it and maybe um you know at this point that's a that's kind of a sacrifice um in inverted commas we have to make for those high highs is that there are going to be some lulls obviously we want to have our cake and eat it or I certainly do we want to have this amazing rivalry but could we also have you know a third person come in could we also have some maybe more interesting subplots that really matter you know we've had some other great stories on the men's side and thinking like Vachero winning a masters out of absolutely nowhere, stories like that.

44:16But, you know, really at the sharp end that there's been one show in town, but it has been such an incredible show. So yeah, maybe, maybe that's okay. I don't know. But I do know that that match they played will always stay with me. And I guess the men's side is brought into sharper focus because, on the women's side, they're almost at that sweet spot. What I think is the sporting sweet spot, like the big four era where you've got a lot of players who can reliably get to the latter stages of majors, but you don't know who's going to win. So there aren't too many contenders, but there aren't too few.

45:01So yeah, I think overall, that's quite an enviable position to be in. but you know for all certainly those of us who are so close to the sport you know we might occasionally grumble about you know the fact that these two players are too dominant and it's too predictable but then you know you do take a step back you think god I was just so lucky to be there and it's exciting to think that there may well be many more of those to come whether any of them quite hit those levels we don't know but I think it will be quite fun finding out thanks everyone see you soon bye it was interesting wasn't it when we had the Barge award show last week for Friends of the Pod the two obvious categories were ATP match of the year and WTA match of the year And look, there was barely any point of doing that category on the men's side of things.

46:08Like there was such an obvious winner. And the WTA category had so many great contenders. It feels, it always feels a bit wrong to me that the ATP has the match of the year for 2025 because sort of net, the WTA has it in terms of match quality and match drama. But it is absolutely undeniable that Carlos Alcaraz against Yannick Sinner in the Roland Garros final was the match of 2025 and the best tennis match that I have ever seen live and may ever see live. I think it's very possible that I won't see a better tennis match than that. It's very also possible that I will see previous sort of ice skating analogy and the fact that these guys are still really young and seem to keep getting better.

47:05But there's, I mean, it just was, David. It just was that good. Yeah. The boring the grandkids about it that Charlie referenced, I can really relate to that. If I never commentate on another match, I had the privilege of commentating on sets two and four of that match. If I never commentate on another match again, I'll always have that memory of having been able to witness that inside the stadium, try to keep up with the shots, try to find the right words and the right reactions. and know that I came off saying to the producer, I would pay you to have done that. And maybe that's not the best negotiating tactic of all time, but I don't care.

47:58That's how I felt. Matt, you did not move for all five sets. Not even a loo break. I think about that all the time. Yeah, me and Mohamed Liani during Isna Mahou. um yeah look it was it was extraordinary i've actually had a i've had a very lucky year a great year in terms of attending live events and being at some moments um and that that was the very best of them all and it's funny what stays with you right like now what are we six six months on or so I mostly remember how I felt you know I mostly remember the frenzy inside the inside the stadium and the noises everyone was making and the laughing that they were doing you know and looking over at you Catherine and Charlie there and I remember very closely that we were with Itamar our friend as well watching this one like it's it's kind of just like it becomes a shared experience um and there are little moments from the match that stay with me you know Charlie's picked out one there in the tie break I always think of the Alcaraz sort of forehand squash shot that he hit very late down the stretch in the fifth set which wasn't even a winner in the rally but it got him back in the in the rally it was just extraordinary moment yeah like it was it was so special and I think you know Charlie's Charlie's voice note there and And your comments there, Catherine, about, you know, how many more great matches there were on the women's side this year, all completely agree with.

49:43You know, I think there was that stat, wasn't there? We only had two matches in the men's majors actually go to five sets from the round of 16 onwards at slams this year. One of them was the greatest match of all time, potentially Sina Alcaraz. The other one was, I believe, Cameron Norrie, Nicholas Jarry at Wimbledon. Like there was just as memorable. There was a dearth of like really competitive matches down the stretch at the majors this year. But I do think we, you know, probably do need to maybe look a bit harder for the intrigue in men's tennis going into 2026. That's going to be a goal for me because I do think that there are a lot of stories over the year.

50:31I'm not saying necessarily like in the middle of those slams. I think it can be a bit of a tough scene in the middle of those slams when it feels like a bit of an inevitable march towards Sina Alcarez and we're not getting super competitive matches. But there are a lot of other stories through the year that I think just do naturally feel less compelling because they're not Sina Alcarez. but they are still great in their own right. Like just off the top of my head, the Mazzetti Knight met or Vachero. The fact that Draper was so good at the start of the year, how hyped we all were for Feast. I think that was a real blow, like losing Draper and Feast halfway through the season, as David's talked about.

51:08Those were two players we were really excited about. But there were like good matches. You know, we had Cabali-Bergs at the end of the season. They all feel a bit less significant than all of the great women's matches because there's more parity on the women's tour and like everything feels significant. But it's a goal for me to try and really remember and get into the other stories in men's tennis beside Sina Alcres in 2026. Because there's not only two players playing great tennis on the men's tour. Like other people are playing good tennis and I do think it is partly up to us to appreciate that.

51:51I agree with you. I agree with you. But look, I think we did get into all of those stories. Like I was living for the Mazzetti Nightmare Tour. Like it really gave me something to get my teeth into during a stage of the season that I struggle with. But I think the reason that, well, there's a lot of reasons why that was compelling, but it wasn't building up to a slam. Like it felt consequential because it didn't feel like the eventual outcome was inevitable the problem at slams is that we know that fun stuff happens in the men's side of a slam in the first few rounds and we get into that but we get into it in a very isolated way because it all feels so inconsequential in terms of the eventual outcome that and that yes we we can find and enjoy the stories but that is a problem that's what i said yeah does add weight and gravity to what you're watching if it feels like it really matters at the sharp end.

52:53But look, I agree with you. And I think it really was a blow losing Feast and Draper, particularly for David, obviously. Our thoughts are with you, David, at this difficult time. Yeah, it's worse for me than for them. No, look, I'll be interested to see whether they can make a go of their careers at that level again. I mean, I know that sounds very dramatic, but there has to be a big question mark over players that have missed that long who are putting that sort of strain on their bodies. I hope for the best. But, yeah, I totally see both of your points there, really, and I'm really determined to sort of look for...

53:41There are so many human interest stories as well as developing tennis stories. I'm fascinated to see who jumps out of the blocks. When I think of how poorly Caballi started the year and how incredibly he ended it, maybe he can start the year well. And wouldn't that be interesting to see where that took him? There's a lot of people like that. But you are still left with this feeling of, does this translate into something that could threaten those two if they came up against them? and I'd love to see somebody who did you know not that I don't love their rivalry but it would be great to find somebody who who's just able to impact them a third man if you will and that leads me to the iconic Simon Briggs of the Daily Telegraph here is one of our favorite people so movie buffs might be familiar with a great film called the third man which uh was sort of in my head when i got to the spring of 2025 and i was looking at jack draper and thinking he could be the third man in the great atp rivalry alongside uh sinner and alcaraz in the same way that novak jokovic became a third wheel behind uh federer and nadal um jack had just won indian wells he reached the final of madrid the newspaper was getting very excited about him and we were hoping for a big summer we were hoping to introduce him to british sporting fans not tennis fans specifically because they know who he is but the ones who hadn't quite yet worked out who this guy was because he hadn't won enough rounds at wimbledon it turned out that he wasn't going to win many rounds this year either because he was already struggling with what was the beginnings of this really horrific bone bruise injury which has killed his season pretty much stone dead So that has probably been the dominant narrative for me in 2025, the excitement and then the concern.

55:40And we heard Jack give a great interview with the Tennis Podcast a few weeks ago. We heard what a great guy he is. We heard how difficult he finds it not to overpress as he's trying to keep up in this super competitive world. And now we've discovered he can't play even the exhibition, even the Moritoglu exhibition at the end of the year. and we're just praying that he can make it to Australia in some shape or form. So that's my memory perhaps and we just have to wish him all the best for 2026. And we do wish him all the best for 2026, for Jack's sake and for Simon Briggs' sake.

56:19The man needs something to write about, David. Yes, that's right. Because Emerita kind of can't play every day. No, listen, I mean, Simon loves covering different stories as much as anybody. But the hard facts are that the Grand Slam nations need somebody in each draw to follow. And Jack Draper is incredible news for British tennis following on from Andy Murray that he's come along and he's suddenly become this compelling player. And the first six months of last year, I mean, we're actually in excess of what I thought he was going to be capable of. And it looked sustainable. It seemed as though he'd become robust.

57:05And just a terrible shame for him that that's changed. So let's hope it changes back as quickly as possible.

57:15Yeah, I do worry just to group him in with Artifice again, these sort of chronic sounding injuries at a young age they they really concern me as as the listener is starting to understand i have a lot of injury secondhand injury related anxiety for tennis players if we sort of maybe just sort of put a bow on the men's tennis chat here right like where we're going in 2026 to my mind there's kind of three like big big picture options and one of them is kind of as simon's talking about there a third man coming along and you know whether that's a draper or a feast or a fonseca or a shelton you know whoever it could be maybe it's someone more like fritz like that's an option the other option i think is like it all continues as it is and Sinu and Alcarez which I think what they've done this year is kind of lifted and separated from the rest of the field you know as David was saying things can change quickly it wasn't that long ago that Alcarez wasn't even in the top two he started the year not in the top two and they hadn't played a grand slam final against each other and yet they now just seem so far ahead of the rest of the field so that's I think probably the most likely option in my mind that it continues that no one is quite able to make that jump and Sinu and Alcaraz remain pretty neck and neck is there also an option that one of those lifts and separates from the other like is is that possible in 2026 does does the scene look a bit different because it's not a third man coming along it's one of them standing out above the others and and clearly identifying themselves as the number one, the best player in the world.

59:07I'd be interested to see that as well. I think that is possible. And obviously, I think probably all of our minds would go to it being Alcaraz. I think we all sort of lean on Alcaraz's talent so much and his potential and his upper level. We're all such believers in that. I don't want to speak for you both. No, I think if you told me one's going to separate next year, I would go sinner. And why would you go sinner? I mean, obviously, he's an incredible tennis player, but I think his mental strength, I mean, I think Alcaraz's mental strength is underrated. And I think he really proved something with winning the US Open this year in particular.

59:57Like he just locked in and said, this one's mine and proved that he can really be tunnel visioned, I think, in that way. But I think that comes a lot more naturally to Yannick Sinner than it does to Carlos Alcaraz. I think he can do that 365 days a year. I think dominance will suit Yannick Sinner better than Carlos Alcaraz. When there's so little to choose between them tennis-wise, I just, that's an outfit I can see him wearing. Yeah, that makes sense. David? well I would probably say that that he's more likely to be consistent as well I just unless injury comes along I just don't see that scenario happening I think it's it is possible I think somebody would have to get a lot worse somebody would have to go through a bit of a crisis of form I don't think Alcaraz is going to just be able to produce French Open comeback level or US Open level and elevate himself above what we're seeing from Yannick Sinner.

1:01:06Not through four slams a year. As much as I might have said 12 in a row guy, I didn't expect Sinner to come along like this from where we were at that Wimbledon. He has proved himself over the last two years. He is baseline level, bloody impressive. And Alcaraz occasionally has other worldly levels that can go above that but I think I think it would it would be more likely that Sinner would dominate and Alcaraz might have a year where he struggles but I still don't think either of those are going to happen I think they're going to be neck and neck and they're going to be sharing these things out and and I think the Australian Open is so fascinating there right because Alcaraz has said it's his biggest goal for 2026 coming right out the first tournament he plays is his big goal to complete the career slam be the youngest man to do that and if he does get that you are starting to look at a picture of a bit of Alcaraz dominance right he would have won three of the last four majors he would have won the two hardcore majors most recently off sinner he would have three more majors in their personal race like I think I think the Australian Open is like this is not a this is not a shocking take is just so fascinating it's so perfectly poised with the way Sinner sort of came back at Alcarez at the end of last year um on the indoor hard courts as well and just and just looked every bit as good as Alcarez did like it's it's so well set up and yeah I I suppose I just I just think if someone's going to do something totally outrageous to me I go Carlos Alcarez but I do get what you mean about Sinner's consistency and reliability and how dominance would kind of suit him but ultimately I come down on the same side as you I think most likely scenario is they continue to split the majors over the next few years I think they split the first two I think Alcarez wins Australia Sinner wins the French well I was just going to say I mean it's so perfectly set up for Australia with Alcaraz's quest to become the youngest man to complete the career slam.

1:03:20Then imagine Alcaraz does that and how perfectly that sets up the French Open because then it's, okay, I've done it. He's done it. Can you do it now? How motivated Yannick, I mean, he doesn't need extra motivation, does he? But, ah, delicious. Absolutely delicious. And then there's always the possibility that in the words of Mary Carrillo, somebody else might squirt one out

1:03:49you just never know

1:03:54shall we hear from Hannah Wilkes always yes let's hear from the brilliant captain of the barge somebody that we can't believe we get to work with and she writes a column for us every month for friends of the podcast She's an incredible talent, is Hannah. And here she is reflecting on 2025. Looking back at 2025, what I see is a season when the gulf between the content and the process of the tennis year became truly so polarised, perhaps to an unprecedented extent. And what I mean by that is that genuinely, I think the tennis this year was so good. In terms of what actually went on on the court, there were a lot of really memorable matches and storylines and journeys and rivalries and tournament runs.

1:05:02you know whether it was the French Open men's final maybe the greatest men's match I've ever seen or Madison Keys at the Australian Open with just a story for the ages and Arena Sabalenka versus the universe and also sometimes herself there was just so much to get your teeth into and really enjoy like even the rest of men's tennis outside our Karazman Center often a bit of a howling wasteland in 2025. Even that finished pretty strongly with the Davis Cup finals. You know, at the big events, at the small events, at the team events, at the weird events. Like, it's just been so much to enjoy on the court.

1:05:47But I think there's also been so much getting in the way of even watching what's going on in the court. The bad ideas are getting so difficult to ignore for one thing. I mean, shout out two week 1000s, Saudi Arabia. And the commitment to institutional self-sabotage is so blatant. And then there's what I think is the biggest issue tennis is facing now, which is maybe the least discussed, which is climate change. I understand people don't want to talk about it because they don't know what to do about it. But look at Cincinnati this summer, like look at Shanghai. Even if all you want to do is watch tennis and not think about the fate of the world, which I find extremely relatable, there is an existential threat to tennis from the climate crisis.

1:06:50And I don't really see the sport engaging with it. I realise that is a bit of a downer to end on, so I won't end on that, because look, you can basically ignore everything I said in the last couple of minutes. I mean, yes, Madison Key's redemption arc, yes, Alcaraz, Zinnah, Championship Points, Greatest Match of All Time, Yeah, yeah. But we all know that the real moment with a capital M of the 2025 tennis season was the forehand winner Takeda Oda had hit to save the second championship point against Gustavo Fernandez in the US Open men's singles final before going on to complete the career ground slap.

1:07:42and please imagine me punctuating that statement like Novak Djokovic hanging up the phone on Ben Shelton because I said what I said thank you and good night she said what she said

1:08:02I loved that yeah superb superb and and it inspired me to go and seek out highlights of that Takedo Oda-Gustavo Fernandes final and there is about three and a half minutes on the US Open website which we'll link to in our show notes. Just watch it. You don't even need any more. It's one of those rare short form highlights where you just feel that you've got the experience of that match and the winners and what it meant to both players. Both players were seeking to complete the career grand slam in that match fernandez has obviously been around a lot longer he's not the prodigious talent that takito odra is and yet he was the guy who had the match points first more of them didn't take them and yet he's still there to to congratulate his opponent with a really warm response and and actually you know matt matt talks about wanting to sort of seek out the good stories a bit more in men's tennis.

1:09:09I kind of want to seek out the good stories around a Grand Slam. And that includes the wheelchair tournaments. It includes doubles, maybe even junior tournaments, you know, and just try to just find more things that are out there because there's so much. And Tsukito Oda is becoming one of the stories of the sport now. So young, so dominant, you know, I'm watching Alfie Hewitt try it. You know, we were with him at the history conference at Wilmore Dunn the other day where he's talking about how he and Gordon Reid want to try to start winning grand slams by attacking the net more. And in these three minutes highlights, Takedo Oda is just flying in towards the net.

1:09:54And it's extraordinary what he's doing. So, yeah, there's so much to enjoy. and yet you have these crises that Hannah alludes to as well which you almost try to ignore because you can't figure out a solution because well what is the solution? Yeah and we're guilty of that too like we try and at least not ignore it but so often what we're doing is just sort of mentioning it nodding to it sort of making the listeners know that we're aware of this, this is on our minds, and then just moving on, because what else can you say? Just very quickly on wheelchair tennis and Takedo Oda, I feel exactly the same.

1:10:45I also think women's wheelchair tennis for next year is set up in a very intriguing place, because this year the story of 2025 and women's wheelchair tennis was Yui Kimiji, who nobody saw coming. I think everybody thought her best days were behind her. And she's won multiple slams this year. It's been a really heartwarming story, but she's done it in the absence of Dida De Goult, who has been on the sidelines injured. She's had a major surgery, and she's coming back at the start of next year. Will she be the same player that she was? I don't know. but Kimi-ji going head-to-head with Didier de Routes is a fascinating storyline for 2025.

1:11:35But yeah, back to climate change, Matt, and tennis's bad decisions. They are impossible to ignore, aren't they? We used to have a category when we did our end-of-year show differently. One of the categories used to be the tennis shooting itself in the foot award. And there were always so many contenders. It just, I don't know, it feels like the contenders are getting less funny. Like it feels like the bad decisions are less silly or amusing and more sort of dark and potentially existentially catastrophic. Maybe that's just reflective of a shift in the world. the way the world's going yeah yeah yeah i think so um i i did love hannah's uh turn of phrase commitment to institutional self-sabotage which is something i've always felt when i've been at the davis cup finals and the billy jing king cup finals you know like that feeling of what i'm watching is great like this tennis is really good the players are amazing like this is top level stuff like and yet that nagging feeling of oh it's happening at the end of the season when everyone's exhausted or people can't watch this because it hasn't got a tv rights deal or oh i wish that player were here but they can't be because of the way the season's set up you know like there's always like a but and i think i think that's part of what makes the slams so sort of vivid for us like there are i mean there are some buts at the slams like we get very frustrated by the scheduling at the slams you know particularly the frank chopin night sessions particularly at some of the slams putting all the women on first like we do have those feelings but generally the slams are so like secure and they've got so much history behind them and you know what you're going to get out of them like you are able to concentrate a little bit more and just live in the tennis of it all i think but through the season the two-week masters the issues that hannah's talked about in terms of playing in places where it's just too hot or sticky to be playing tennis or or taking the tour to places where there might not be that much support for the players, or places that might have horrific human rights records.

1:14:17These come into play constantly. You're constantly thinking about that as well as the tennis. And yeah, it's a shame because I agree with Hannah. Tennis this year has been exceptional for so much of it. There's so many good matches I can look back on and think about, especially, as we said at the start, on the WTA Tour. And yet so little of it comes without that but and without that and of, yeah, institutional self-sabotage. And the tough thing is I don't really see that changing. And that's a shame.

1:15:06Okay, well for some more optimism, let's hear from our final voice note contributor, someone who's become a bit of an icon around these parts for his voice notes. They have been described by me as Carrillo-esque and they've been a really wonderful addition to our review shows over the last year or so. So let's hear now from The Athletic's Matt Futterman. I'm not breaking any news here when I say that tennis is a long season. I feel like it gets longer every year. And I should say I've had zero trouble failing my time since the tours ended business in mid-November. That's about a month after I think they should close up shop.

1:15:49As usual this year, I found the exhaustion and general disinterest in what happened after the U.S. Open pretty overwhelming among the big players. Even with$15 million on the line in Riyadh, there were a lot of shrugs following losses. All that said, here's how I think the length of the season and the grind of it all revealed itself to me during the past 12 months. Over and over, my brain kept going back to how different players were at the start of the season than they were at the end. I suppose that can be a good thing. Players who have crap starts of the year in Australia and the Middle East still have plenty of time to salvage matters over the next eight months.

1:16:26Seriously, that is more than two months longer than an NFL season, from the first kick to the last second of the Super Bowl. Worked out very well for Taylor Fritz, didn't it? Remember his loss to Gail Monfils in Melbourne? Hard to imagine, right? Now for the downside. I found the arc of it all kind of discombobulating. Let's think about some names. What was 2025 like for Madison Keys? January was undoubtedly the greatest month of her career. She won that elusive Grand Slam. She stayed hot for a while and put up some good results into the early part of the summer. By the U.S. Open, she was spent and kind of miserable once more, especially after a first round loss.

1:17:06We barely saw her until the tour finals, where she was sick and made a quick exit. There was the saga of Yannick Sinner. He missed three months serving that doping suspension after the Australian Open. Then he came back and experienced an opera of ups and downs. Heartbreak in Paris, the best of the best at Wimbledon. Seemingly lost in the wilderness in New York, triumph in Turin. That's a wild journey. Novak, the muscle injury in Australia, the messed up hip by the end of Wimbledon, all those Grand Slam semis, the titles in Geneva and Athens. I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to remember here.

1:17:43Ben Shelton, he dazzled me for the better part of six months on the big stages. Then he blew out his shoulder in September and was a shadow of himself down the stretch. Jack Draper endured a similar narrative. I have no idea what we're going to see from either of them. I think Coco Gauff spent six months playing herself into Grand Slam winning form and looked like one of the best players in the world again. That joyous collapse on the clay of Roland Garros will forever be etched in my mind. By late August, she was a broken player. What the hell? Anissa Mova? She couldn't get out of the second round in Australia.

1:18:17She won Doha. She was basically broken for the next two months. And then she became one of the Tourist top bankers. Victoria Mboko, at 19, played 76 matches this year. She started the year outside the top 300. Now she's number 18. Is anyone shocked about how her teenage body broke down after Canada? Mira Andreeva was about the best player in the world in March. By October, she couldn't get through a point without crying. Anyone else find this deeply weird? Iga Svjantek, Irina Sabalenka? Well, Irina was about as consistent as it gets, I suppose. Oh, there was a breakdown or two there. Remember, Paris?

1:18:57A tennis season is a hell of a journey, isn't it? Another one is just about two weeks away. Off we go. Happy holidays, everybody. Off we go, indeed. I do love a Matt Futterman voice note, David, and he speaks a lot of very profound sense there in terms of a big picture view of this juggernaut that is the ATP and WTA Tours? Yeah, the endlessness of it all. I'm mindful that Matt, Futterman and ourselves and all the people you're hearing from here, we're all the privileged few who get to travel to the Grand Slams, you get to walk in to tournaments with a badge, who get to make a living out of this sport.

1:19:49I mean, what an absolute treat. And I never take that for granted. I absolutely love talking to you two about tennis and hearing from all of them and doing it for the people that are listening. And I hope that that's enjoyed by you all. But at the same time, I don't think that that should leave the sport free from critical analysis and criticism generally when you feel that it just could do with being so much more scarce. And that's something that Jack Draper alluded to in the interview we did with him. And Matt's right. I mean, we haven't had tennis for a couple of weeks. And yes, I sometimes find myself thinking, oh, I miss not being able to put the tennis on while I'm doing things and that sort of thing.

1:20:35But that's okay. I got used to it after a couple of days and I did other things. and the thing is by the time it comes around I'll be bursting for it and that could be so much so much more of a feeling I I'm big into NFL these days that and that you know the regular season is what 18 games and then a few playoff games and it lasts between September and the end of January and then you have you have eight months without it I I don't I'm not saying I want that for tennis but it did it really struck me more than ever this year and I and look I ended up putting it at Roger Federer's door in the Laver Cup's door for for not helping the calendar and and and so forth and I I got a I got ahead of myself there because it's not their fault but it's everyone's fault the the sport should just stop after the after the US Open as a singles concern or at least at the end of September have the tour finals at the end of September have October as your team month to put the Billie Jean King Cup and the Davis Cup in and then stop completely for two months that makes the Davis Cup and the Billie Jean King Cup way more important and better for a whole month you could make it what you want it to be and what it needs to be you could still have the tour finals yes you'd lose some tournaments but imagine how much better the whole sport would be and it's never going to happen sad isn't it yeah and i think things are we're not not naive enough to think that you know anybody's going to stop making capitalist decisions about the sport you know people are going to be driven by profits and money and growth.

1:22:27But the thing is, it feels like to me at the moment, everybody is driven by incredibly short-term profits, money, growth, grabs. Nobody is looking at the long-term. And I include the financial long-term in that. Building the product and making the product the best it can be will ultimately be the best thing for revenues long-term. And it feels like everybody... I don't know if it's down to the fact that, you know, the people in the top jobs tend to only be in them for a few years. So you're judged on that very short snapshot. And it's did you did you increase revenue in that time? You know, basically, that's what they're going to be judged by.

1:23:12And I'm not I'm not suggesting you get rid of democracy in these roles. but it does feel like there is fundamentally something quite wrong with the structure of how these things are functioning that everybody is very short-term motivated that that strikes me as a very big problem because you'll quite often get clapbacks about you know I think there are quotes from I often cite Canada as an example of this and a clapback we get is that the tournament directors of Canada are saying, well, we're quite happy because we're getting, we've got more days and we've got increased ticket revenues because of those extra days.

1:23:56And we're happy with the extended master's arrangement and what the ATP have done for us. Well, let's check back in five to 10 years, shall we, when that event is massively diminished. I mean, it already is. But when sponsors have noticed how massively diminished it is and broadcasters have noticed. And yeah, I'm laboring the point, but that's how I see it. And I feel like this is just a rare example of how, of where, if only they could see it, like everyone's interests are aligned here. You know, when I see the comments from Felix Auger-Eliassime and Emma Raducanu about, you know, we're multi-millionaires that get to travel the world and play sport for a living.

1:24:41like let's shut up and nobody wants to hear us complaining. Okay, sure. And like being aware of that privilege is a good thing. But I also, I don't want to see you playing tired and demotivated. Like that's not in your interest and it's not in my interest. I would rather have less of watching you play tennis. And when I do watch you play tennis to know that you are giving it everything and able to physically give it everything and feel like you can put your body on the line and you're not worried about next week. You're not worried about burnout. You're not worried about falling out of love with the sport.

1:25:21Our interests are aligned on this and I'm okay with you complaining about it because I'm complaining about it too.

1:25:33But I don't know. Yeah, it's not going to change. I think that, you know, I completely agree, by the way, in terms of, you know, I would love a two month off season. I think that would be a real, real boon for the sport to have that. But that thing that Matt Futterman is describing about the sort of ups and downs of a year. Typically, I don't see that as a negative. You know, I actually think that's one of the things I'm really drawn to about tennis. the ebbs and flows of a season, the way someone can burst into form and then sort of disappear, and then you don't really know what's going to happen.

1:26:16And, you know, your outliers are your Sinner, your Alcarez, your Sabalenka, the ones at the very top who managed to sustain it through the season. That's how you sort of identify their greatness, is their ability to kind of sustain that. You know, there's that whole, there's that passage, isn't there, in Open on Dragosy's book about how tennis uses the language of life and how it sort of mimics life in a way. And a year is like that for people. You're going to have ups and downs. You're going to have months that are better than others. And I think tennis has got a good thing there in terms of that ebb and flow.

1:26:52But where I do agree with Matt, and I think it links in with Hannah's voice note, is that this year it felt like people were having their ebbs and flows as a result of the way the tennis season is set up. You know, it didn't necessarily just feel like people were drifting in and out of form. It felt like there was genuine, like, burnout and injury. And yeah, to go back to Hannah's words, institutional self-sabotage. And that was kind of depressing. Like, I don't mind generally the ins and outs and the ups and downs. I find that fascinating. But when it feels like it's kind of being forced upon these players because of what they're being asked to do because of the way the tours and tennis is set up right now it feels like we've got a problem and i feel like we we reached we really reached that point this year where you know you felt like gosh this sport's brilliant but got a problem and yeah will it change can it change will it change no can it change yes um but yeah that's kind of how i feel to this same conversation.

1:28:02Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah. Are we going to end up having to call this podcast institutional self-sabotage? Wouldn't be against it. Or squirt out a major.

1:28:17Just before we wrap up, I feel like we should end on a high note. Could we just talk about Amanda and Isomova for a moment? I know she was covered by, there was lots that was covered by Pam and Mary in their opening voice note that we didn't specifically touch upon. But I have taken so much from her arc in 2025. Like if there's one moment, obviously match, it's going to be Sina Alcaraz. And there have been lots of moments this year. We're incredibly lucky to get to do what we do. And I, yeah, there have been so many moments that will stay with me forever. mostly David mistaking Matteo Berrettini the Pope for Matteo Berrettini that sort of subsumed all the other moments from 2025 for the time being but Amanda Renesimova explaining that she had or revealing that she had watched her Wimbledon final humiliation the night before taking on Igor Svantec again in the US Open quarterfinal that really lives with me I come back and think about that all the time how you know I think inspiring is you know that that sort of language is used is used a lot I think and sometimes I glaze over a little bit but I really was inspired by Amanda Inissimo over this year and confronting just the ultimate tennis trauma.

1:29:54I know she's confronted bigger trauma than that in her personal life and maybe that perspective is what helped her at the very least confront the tennis trauma. But the biggest trauma that you can experience in tennis in sort of results terms happened to her on the biggest stage. And the way she confronted that and didn't allow it to define her or even did allow it to define her, but in the most positive possible way,

1:30:34I think is quite overwhelming, really. And yeah, I think of her in a completely different way to how I did 12 months ago. and she is the player I'm most excited about in 2026. Sorry to sort of wee on your turf, Matt. No? Come on in, use the toilet.

1:31:06Thank you, great. I did have to leave during the Roland Garros final to go to the Louvre. Yeah, sorry about that. I know this is, you know, this is this is your patch, but like I'm in on it. Yeah, I've I've parked myself on your lawn and I'm not moving. I'm so into Amanda and Isamova. You have nothing to apologise for. I'm I'm glad we're all there. And I'm now going to ask you both what you're most excited about in 2026. And unfortunately, I've already stolen the answer Amanda and Isamova. but you can have her too Matt she was yours first yeah I mean she's on the list for every year but you know even even more so in in 2026 you know I I think big picture for the WTA it's that it's that group isn't it you know like there are there are so many major contenders on on the WTA tour and I think I think you know if kind of to go back to the the start of the show when we were talking about mid-seasons and you know we identified as like 2023 was a real like Svantec-Savalenka you know kind of that rivalry really blossoming.

1:32:27I think at the end of 2024 I was excited about 2025 because by then a lot more names had kind of coalesced and become like they felt like major champions and it just feels like that's carried on again this year. You know, like, if you told me next year that Amanda Nisimova wins a major, would not be shocked. Elena Rabakina would not be shocked. Coco Goff would not be shocked. And yet you've still got Sabalenka and Svantec there. That is a great group. I would love, I would love a Svantec-Savalenka Grand Sam final in 2026. You know, I still think those two are above the rest in terms of their consistency and what they've already done.

1:33:09And I do think it's time for us to get a grandstand final between them. The sort of two defining players of this generation, I suppose. But a year like this has shown that even without that, you can still have like a stellar year in women's tennis. And that is exciting going forward. And so many of them are threats on different surfaces. You know, like the fact that Fiontek's now won Wimbledon, like she's obviously a threat there. like there's gonna there's there's no real tournaments where you think oh that person's out of the picture you know golf on grass i think still got kind of a way to go but otherwise like everyone's a threat everywhere and that that is you know to kind of to go back to charlie's voice note that is a sweet spot and yeah i love it i can't wait and obviously what am i most looking forward to uh you know which which city will will i be going to a salon in you know is it melbourne is it paris is it new york is it london it's going to be one of them it's what i'm it's what i'm feeling well i would love amanda and if i'm over to win wimbledon obviously but i sort of i hope it's a an on the road salon experience an exotic foreign salon we get a live we get a potentially live at Wimbledon situation though that could be fun yeah yeah that's true I think I'll do an Instagram live or something either way yeah fun will be had on wherever it is yeah David other than Matt going blonde in an exotic foreign hair salon what are you most excited about in 2026.

1:34:52Well, I mean, I concur with much of what you've said. I will continue to look forward to I think there'll be more than one slam final between Sinner and Alcaraz. I know we joke about it, but I'm genuinely looking forward to seeing Stefani and Dabrowski playing doubles together as my favourite doubles player Stefani and Matt Dabrowski. And I want to see them conquer the world and yeah i want to see them get to a grandstand file what if it doesn't work well i mean i'm interested to know it's it's just it's a source of great fascination and uh you know there's loads of stories like that really it's i just want to keep as open a mind as possible one of the things i loved about 2025 was that we we started tennis podcast meets because we got to speak to and get to know just that little bit, people that were names in drawers or we got preconceptions about.

1:35:56And then you get a little bit more sort of understanding of who they are as people just by being in their presence. And then you follow the results or follow how they're getting on. And I've really enjoyed that. And I want us to build on that. This is a great privilege of our access, of being on site. there are so many you know it's it's hard work sometimes long days long nights long trip away from family and whatnot but the great privilege and advantage of being there is you just get to see and hear and feel things that you wouldn't if you weren't and I hope that comes across in our coverage and that's what we strive to bring you yeah can't beat being there get me to Australia all right not long yeah you're flying with uh matthew which i'm so excited about i am flying with matthew yes watch this space for content or specifically watch our instagram for content at the tennis podcast do give us a follow uh i don't think i've ever been in a airport or flight situation with Matthew before.

1:37:08I imagine it's chaotic. Yeah. He's a great companion, I reckon. I'm excited and anxious in equal measure. I should say the only reason we're travelling together is because Matthew wants to get in on my additional baggage allowance. Of course. Not because he thinks I'd be a great travel companion. Yeah. It's very like when we were supposed to have dinner with Matthew and he texted asking if he could use my washer dryer while we were dining. And then 15 minutes before we were meant to be having dinner he said, can we push it back three hours?

1:37:52Yeah, that was an ill-fated evening, wasn't it? This has been so fun. I love these shows. I love our Grand Slam Review shows. Thank you to all of our contributors. Pam, Mary, Charlie and Matt from The Athletic, the incredible Hannah Wilkes and the incomparable Simon Briggs. You are all very important members of the Tennis Podcast family and we love you all. And we can't wait to voyage into 2026 together.

1:38:27We still have a couple of pods left in 2025, actually. in fact more than a couple if you're a friend of the pod because we have our live Q &A show tomorrow Tuesday night for friends of the pod that's at 8pm on YouTube it'll be up as a podcast as well we also have our final edition of Tennis Relived for 2025 that'll be up on Friday and it focuses on Brad Parks the man who came up with the idea of wheelchair tennis it was all down to him 50 years ago next year wheelchair tennis will be celebrating its 50th anniversary and we'll be talking about that journey over the past 50 years and celebrating Brad Parks who David has spoken to in in great length and he's a he's a heck of a guy so we're very excited about that show then we also have a weekly show recording on Sunday covering any and all news that the the tennis world has chosen to bring us in that time.

1:39:29And then we'll be back the following Sunday to talk about your friend of mine, the battle of the sexes and other news in the tennis world. But unavoidably, we will also talk about the battle of the sexes. And that will be our big 2026 season preview as well. It will. I'm focusing on that bit. Right. Yeah, I appreciate that, Matt. That has lessened the dread, the knot in my stomach slightly. So lots to come your way for the remainder of 2025. Even more to come your way in 2026. We've been planning. We've been drawing up lists of requests for tennis podcast meets. Fun and exciting stuff coming your way for 2026.

1:40:18Hello to our mascots, Phoebe, Maisie and Roger. we love you Phoebe had a little cameo at the quiz last night true that was a good moment quite a lot of dog and cat cameos at the quiz actually I enjoyed all of that but obviously in particular Phoebe's cameo hello to our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff we had Chris at the quiz last night I think he performed very creditably whilst also keeping an eye on the NFL at the same time. So well done, Chris. Matt, let's have some shout outs. We have Benji Husband from Melbourne. How apt, Benji. Love the name Benji. How fun. And get this, Benji will be a ball kid at this year's Australian Open and his favourite player is Grigor Dimitrov and he's hoping for one more good run at a slam.

1:41:24He only needs one, Benji. You never know. You never know. Two sets up, he was, on the great Yannick Senna. Well done, David, because that moment probably deserved a mention, didn't it, in the review show? Yeah. Yeah. the great sliding doors of 2025. Benji, thank you for making us remember that. And good luck being a ball kid at the Australian Open. Not that you need it, but that sounds like it'll be great fun. Enjoy. We've also got Geraint from Southwark in London. Hello, Geraint. All right, Geraint. Geraint says... From Southwark, as in Southwark, London? Yes. Oh, nearby. I wonder if you mean sort of the place or the borough.

1:42:27Anyway. You can say. In answer to... Stop going on about Southwark. It's all I've got on Geraint at the moment. Tell us more, Matt. I've been trying and you keep going on about Southwark.

1:42:49Geraint says like Geraint Richards an influential wheelchair tennis figure good work Geraint good work Geraint we love that I'm afraid to say anything more but thank you for being a friend of the pod and finally we have Peter Swenson from Corvallis Oregon Oh, hi, Peter. Peter, who says my early days of seeing professional tennis live were right in the David's sweet spot of the early 90s when I saw players like Gabriella Sabatini and Stefan Edberg at the US Open. oh fantastic so you're thinking 1990 when sabatini won the us open and 91 when edberg won the first of his two back-to-back us opens oh great days there we go thank you peter you've transported david peter what a gift we'll put you in we'll put you in touch with David.

1:43:55Do you want to go for a pint? Chat the 90s together. Geraint, Peter, and who was our first shout out, Matt? Benji. Benji. Benji. Benji, Geraint, and Peter. Thank you ever so much for being friends of the pod. Thank you all for listening or for watching. If you joined us on YouTube, we will be back for Friends on Tuesday and on Friday, and we'll be back for everybody else on Sunday. If you'd like to become a friend of the pod, the link is in our show notes. Thank you. We'll speak to you soon.