Alcaraz-Ferrero split!

0:10Matt Roberts:Well, hello and welcome to the tennis podcast unexpectedly on this Wednesday afternoon. This is an unplanned free form live podcast with myself, Catherine Whitaker, Matt Roberts, David Law, Matt Futterman from The Athletic. will be joining us very shortly. Indeed, we've been speaking to all of our contacts in the tennis world, pretty much all of whom are as shocked as you and I by the news that dropped earlier on today. The reason we are all here, which is the news that world number one, Carlos Alcaraz, has split from his longtime coach and self-labeled father figure, Juan Carlos Ferreiro. The news broken by Alcaraz on his own social media channels.

1:02Matt Roberts:This is translated from Spanish. Thank you, Matt Roberts. He says, it's very difficult for me to write this post. After more than seven years together, Juanqui and I have decided to end our time together as coach and player. Thank you for making my childhood dreams come true. We started this journey when I was just a kid. And throughout this time, you've been with me on an incredible adventure, both on and off the court. and I've thoroughly enjoyed every step of it with you. We've made it to the top and I feel that if our sporting paths had to part, it should be from up there, from the place we always worked towards and always aspired to reach.

1:40Matt Roberts:So many memories come to mind that it wouldn't be fair to choose just one. You have made me grow as an athlete, but above all as a person and something I value greatly. I have enjoyed the process. I will remember that, the journey we've taken together. Now times of change are coming for us both, new adventures and new projects, but I'm certain that we will face them in the right way, giving our best as we always have done. I sincerely wish you all the best in everything that comes your way. I'm comforted by the knowledge that we gave our all, that we offered everything to each other. Thank you for everything, Juanqui.

2:15Matt Roberts:And those words were accompanied by a carousel of very moving photos, most of which featured Alcaraz Ferreiro hugs. And let me tell you, as somebody that searched Alcaraz Ferreiro on Getty Images earlier, there is no shortage of hug photos. Like you could you could make several montages out of that alone. Ferreiro himself followed very soon after, obviously, a coordinated PR effort with his own statement. He said today is a difficult day, one of those when it's hard to find the right words. Saying goodbye is never easy, especially when there are so many shared experiences behind it. We've worked hard, grown together and shared unforgettable moments.

2:56Matt Roberts:I want to thank you for the time, the trust, the learning and above all for the people who have surrounded me throughout this journey. I take with me laughter, challenges overcome, conversations, support during difficult months and the satisfaction of having been part of something truly unique. Today, a very important chapter of my life comes to an end. I close it with nostalgia, but also with pride and excitement for what may come next. I know that everything I've lived has prepared me to be better. Thank you, Carlos, for the trust, the effort and for making your way of competing make me feel so special.

3:27Matt Roberts:I wish you all the best, both professionally and personally. I would also like to thank the entire team for making my work easier throughout all these years. With you, I've learned that work is not just about tasks or results, but about the people who walk alongside you. Each and every one of you has left a mark on me that I will never forget. We have been an incredible team despite the difficulties, and I'm sure you will continue to achieve great success. I wish I could have continued. I'm convinced that good memories and good people always find a way to cross paths again. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.

4:02Matt Roberts:Matt, what was your reaction when this news dropped?

4:08Catherine Whitaker:I was pretty shook, you know, I think like a lot of people. I was not on alert for this at all. You know, we've seen Alcarez on vacation in Miami. Yesterday he was doing some pre-season fitness testing, I think. Everything appeared to be sort of business as usual in the Alcaraz world, you know, kind of poetically reflected in his hair going back to normal, you know, like everything was normal in the Alcaraz world as far as I was concerned. um so i was not expecting this at all but the first thing i saw when i opened instagram was as you described one of those um hug photos from the carousel and i immediately was like oh my god this this feels like that's going to be accompanied by some news um and look i think a lot of people are feeling shocked or stunned and i think because the you know the Alcaraz Ferreiro coaching player relationship is the kind of relationship that we all sort of like to romanticize right and we've and we've witnessed its entire arc and journey as Alcaraz has become the best player in the world you know like from their coming together when they were 18 and Ferreiro turning down other offers and taking Alcaraz under his wing and working together and turning him into the world number one or certainly being part of that you know we've seen the hugs I think we've all sort of got that kind of connection to this coaching relationship just from the outside so it kind of feels like sort of shocking news to everyone but you know at the same time there were some hints in the Netflix documentary that kind of everything wasn't quite as rosy as it seemed perhaps and yeah certainly I've spoken to some well one Spanish journalist in particular which I'll talk more about but he's sort of described it in in less shocking terms actually and and the more I've processed it and thought about it over the last few hours I'm still shocked not going to lie but I I can make sense of it in a way that I sort of couldn't in the first initial stages of seeing the Instagram post yeah people that aren't

6:26Matt Roberts:shocked by this news are some members of the Spanish media and Matthew, our camera operator, who claims he saw it coming, David, TVC or whether we believe him. He claims so. Yeah. Did you see it coming?

6:42David Law:No, I didn't. I could claim to be wise after the event. And, you know, we're going to hear from Matt Futterman as well, who I think was more, was less surprised by the knew certainly than I was and I think the reason that I'm surprised is because of how reliant Alcaraz has always seemed on Ferreira and understanding of his importance and Ferreira understanding of his own importance to Alcaraz maybe that's the cause of the friction in the absence of knowing the exact reasons from each one of them maybe he's asserted some of his authority in Alcraz has taken umbrage to it. I don't know. When I think back now, yes, I can see the point made about that documentary.

7:33David Law:That documentary wasn't in tone what I was expecting, and I definitely had some problems with the pitching of Alcraz as having to go on this journey of greatness. I didn't like that at the time. I didn't put all of that at Ferreira's door. I put that more at his agent's door really than anything else. But I also think maybe if you think logically about it, when you've taken over with somebody when they're such a young person, when they're a child really, and then they become an adult and start to have, as a parent I can see it with my own son, opinions, and you're trying to keep some control and some influence and yet you've got to understand that they're going to have their own views, then maybe it's not that surprising.

8:24David Law:I think it just feels like massive news because of how important he is in the game and how rare this is for a coaching story to take this sort of attention. you know for us to do a show like this about a coaching split is rare I think maybe we might have done one if we'd have been doing this a year ago about Djokovic and Murray starting together but and maybe when Murray ended with Lendl but there's really not that many of them that can stop you in the tracks and this really did stop me in my tracks yep me too I can't claim to have seen this coming, I am now remembering all of the amber or red flags that came up while

9:13Matt Roberts:watching that documentary. And same as you, that documentary was not what I was expecting and didn't make me feel sort of warm and fuzzy about that relationship in the way that I was expecting. But to claim that I saw this coming would be an outright lie. Not so, potentially though for the Athletics Matt Futterman. Welcome Matt. We checked in with you and your athletic colleagues upon hearing this news and you said actually that ever since watching the documentary you had been on somewhat alert for this news. What level of shock were you today? I wasn't really shocked at all. I mean I figured I was shocked a little bit of the timing just because I thought maybe next year it would come.

10:10I didn't think it would be this year. And also shocked a little bit by if it was sort of like an off-season plan, it seemed like the thing that he might have done a few weeks ago rather than, what are we, mid-December at this point. So those are my two thoughts. And that's basically just based on like having watched these relations, a lot of these relationships that are, like David said, you know, their roots happen in childhood years. It's hard to sort of transition them to adulthood. That may not be what's going on here. But there are there are a couple there are two. I mean, there's two sort of interesting phrases that I sort of stayed in my ears with those statements.

11:06One was despite the difficulties. And the other was I wish I could have stayed, which sort of, to me, support sort of opposite potential conclusions about what was driving this. And, you know, for all we know, it had nothing to do with any tension about Carlitos wanting to go to Ibiza more or something like that. It just may be like family pressure and Juan Carlos couldn't travel anymore or something along those lines, which is what, you know, I wish I could have stayed may have been. Or sometimes I wish I could have stayed as I wish we could have come to terms.

11:47Matt Roberts:so a couple of just to pick up quickly on one thing you said that is it is it possible given the sort of slightly surprising timing is it possible this did happen a couple of weeks ago at the start of the offseason and we're only hearing about it now or is it not possible enough these days to keep something a secret i would i would think that would be possible especially because like Team Alcoraz is a pretty tight-knit group and it's mostly family. There's a lot of that around there. I mean, there's really sort of just like a couple of sort of professional and outsider types, one being Albert Molina, his agent, and another being one, Carlos and Sammy Lopez.

12:39And obviously he's got a fitness trainer and things like that. But, you know, he doesn't have like a massive posse there. And so if there was ever a group that could sort of keep things sort of quiet and tight, I would think it would be Team Carlos.

13:01Matt Roberts:Yeah, that's a good point. We just don't know what – we'll know before too long, I think. what went down i would think so sure do you think do you think we will get the the gory details uh sure i'm always confident in that i'm always confident in my ability or our ability or the ability of my colleagues to uncover gory details yeah so information information as a way of coming out especially in tennis look i know it's purely speculation at this point genuinely like we've around a lot and Matt I know you've got some tidbits from Spanish media but nobody seems to know exactly what the story is here but Matt Futterman or feel free any Matts to come in here but I'm specifically directing it at Matt Futterman.

13:54Matt Roberts:Why did you see this coming? Why is this not a surprise to you? What did you see in that relationship? Was it purely what you saw in the Netflix documentary? Is it more about what you know of coach player dynamics generally and the expiration period they tend to have on them? I guess I saw just sort of, you know, in body language and tone sometimes and just sort of general demeanor with Juan Carlos and Alcaraz's development is just at some point I thought he was going to get tired of sort of being spoken to as a teenager or a 15 year old which is something I just I guess I just saw a lot of and like at some point and I think many things could be true here because I think all of these sort of all of these dynamics alter the calculation when a coach is deciding or a player is deciding whether they want to continue with this coach player relationship um so i think there's there could be an element of that an element of alcaraz just being like you know i'm an adult now i kind of want to be in charge i don't want to take directions i think you've seen that a lot with Coco Gauff.

15:21She definitely has the desire to be the CEO of Coco Gauff Incorporated rather than her father. There's a tension there. That's just a natural development and a healthy development that people can and do and should go through. That's all okay. Then also some things that come into this sometimes is money you know like all of the that's it you know that is a calculation and i guess as an american i'm biased and i always think it's about the money um you know the more they there was a general manager the new york giants football team who you know used to say the more they tell you it's not about the money the more it's actually about the money right um

16:07Matt Roberts:yeah and in tennis is it's it it's generally and increasingly about the money um well i mean like But these coaching, I mean, coaches, they get a base salary, but they also, I don't know the intricate details of the deal between the two of them. But generally, coaching deals are you get some sort of base salary, and then you're getting commissions on both sponsorships and on winnings. And as those things reach sort of gargantuan levels, being the coach ends up being really good. And the player and his business managers want to sort of bring those commission levels down to sort of keep the salaries and the compensation from getting too out of control.

17:03Like I said, I don't know that that's what happened here. but it's an inevitable thing that happens and when someone's deciding about like well do I want to continue well how much you're going to pay me and is it worth it and all of these things like get factored into just like they get factored into anyone deciding about what sort of job they want to pursue.

17:23Matt Roberts:Matt Roberts does this all chime with what you've gleaned from your Spanish contacts Matt's been deploying all of his degree level Spanish today and we thank him for that.

17:39Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, a chance to send a WhatsApp in Spanish is a great thrill, has to be said. And I did that to Alejandro Feriza, who works for El Pais, one of the main newspapers in Spain, who's someone we see a lot at the Grand Slams. and you know he is he is right there in the in the spanish journalists you know pack that go to all the alcaraz press conferences and have interviews you know he's he's pretty he's pretty in the know um and he said something pretty similar you know which was in his words again i've translated this but he says the change is a natural progression in carlos's career ferrero's profile was ideal for his professional launch and rise to the top of tennis but now perhaps his needs are different he's already 22 he knows the ins and outs of the elite level and change could be a beneficial stimulus to avoid complacency and a new challenge plus and I think this is the bit that really chimes with what Matt's been saying Carlos is increasingly aware of his own importance and status and he's having more and more influence on the decision making that surrounds him and his team um he says the timing might be surprising for a lot of people especially coming off such a great season and you know with the chance to complete the career grand slam just around the corner but the point he makes is that carlos actually hasn't started his pre-season training yet Like this is not a mid-preseason training move.

19:18Catherine Whitaker:It's literally starting right now. And I think that's why the announcement has come out right now, because otherwise it would be, it would generate gossip, right? Like where is Ferreiro? He's not being seen at preseason. So he's starting now, and this is allowing Samuel Lopez, who is already part of Alcaraz's team. And I think that was maybe a sign that Alcaraz was already thinking along these lines when he brought Samuel Lopez in full time earlier in the season he's going to be the head coach, he's going to stay on as the head coach and sort of take the reins so I think the timing of the announcement is very much in line with Alcarez starting properly his pre-season training after his holiday and the sort of exhibitions that he's played

20:11Catherine Whitaker:Alejandro also said that a factor was definitely Ferreira's desire to travel less and I asked him how big a factor that was he said certainly not the main motivation he says several factors at play from now on I would say the working relationship between Ferreira and Alcaraz is over there'll be no further collaboration so no kind of like Ferreira will pop up at the slams or anything right no this is this is it this is a this is a split um and yeah look i think it's an important moment for a player right to know when to move on from a coaching partnership to know when it's reached the end of its lifespan and i think sometimes some players certainly with sort of fatherly figures can get a

20:59Matt Roberts:bit stuck and personally maybe to even anticipate the end of the lifespan just before it right and

21:07Catherine Whitaker:And look, I thought Ferreira probably had more to give. I'm surprised. But, like, knowing when to move on, it can be an important thing for a player to do. And, you know, I think it could be a big moment. Look at, like, Sinner and Piatti.

21:26Matt Roberts:Exactly. Which seemed like such a bold, ruthless thing to do at the time, but unquestionably the right thing for him. Yeah, that was in retrospect like an absolute masterstroke. And Vignazzi, who he brought on, is much more of like a Sammy Lopez kind of figure in terms of, you know, he's not this sort of icon of the game. He's a lot, he's, well, is he a lot? Yeah, I mean, sort of just stature wise. um yeah i think the power dynamic is pretty clear in that relationship in a way that it wasn't necessarily right there with piatti who you know was telling center like how much time he should spend with his girlfriend and stuff like that i mean you know and i think and center was just

22:20Catherine Whitaker:sort of like yeah i i think i kind of want to make that decision at this point um and that's just you know that's how I would say that I would say that's pretty helpful but I suppose but I suppose the Sinner-Piatti split did come at a time when like obviously Sinner was doing well but if you

22:39Matt Roberts:remember he just he wasn't world number one he wasn't world number one and he just it just got

22:44Catherine Whitaker:pretty blown away by Sitsapas at that Australian Open you know and like there was a bit of a sort of career reckoning moment whereas Alcarez it's not that you know like I think there is a I would definitely draw a comparison to that but there is a key difference as well i would also start the clock on um public arena booster becoming a coach as well i mean i have no i mean i just feel like he's been around alcaraz since he was a kid too they're incredibly close he's showing up at his matches all the time he listens to him i mean i go back to i go back to like the first grand slam match he ever played during the COVID Australian Open.

23:26And it was like me and six other people. And one of them was was Gran Busta. You know, he's been raised there. And I would like I would be shocked if at some point in the future, he didn't become the the Moya to Alcaraz, you know, to the Moya. The Arani to Alcaraz's Paolini. Yeah.

23:49Matt Roberts:Without the doubles. something like that i go more moya nadal or you know rather than you know rather than but frankly

23:57Catherine Whitaker:krenia buster is just glad to be mentioned in the same breadth as maya and irani here like this is

24:04Matt Roberts:big for him cablo krenia buster is thrilled with this podcast right now right i am i i am his hype man so the um everyone needs one or everyone has david law the um the the the point you've all made about kind of uh all coaching player coach player relationships even the best ones having an expiration date and sort of knowing when that is and anticipating what that is Geary Nathan who I had a quick chat with earlier Alcaraz Sinner expert author of Changeover the Alcaraz Sinner book we had him on the show earlier earlier this year fantastic journalist and writer, he reminded me of a recent quote from Gilles Savara about his split with Daniel Medvedev, who had been with for, well, seemingly forever, longer even than Alcaraz and Ferreira, quite a lot longer, actually.

25:05Matt Roberts:And he described it as like being in a boat at sea. and he said at some point the engine stops but you don't see it because the boat continues gliding. After a while that energy is gone and you're stuck mid-sea trying to restart the engine. It's a great quote. And I guess he could be trying to sort of, you know, the gliding, I guess the point he's making there is the gliding can mask the stalling of the engine And if you're Carlos Alcaraz and the stakes are world number one level high and fighting for the career slam high, you don't want to wait till you're stalling before you make the big decision.

25:54Matt Roberts:I don't know, David, what do you think? You've been speaking to Spaniards as well. You've done a degree in Spanish today.

26:00David Law:Yeah, I mean, Matt probably had more success because of his ability to communicate with them. But actually, I spoke to Manuel Sanchez, a Spanish journalist for FAA in London, actually. And I remember speaking to him when Alcaraz won his second Wimbledon. And he just, I think he's got a good reading, even though he doesn't necessarily work in full time in tennis, he just has a good sense. And he thought that it was very much coming from the Alcaraz side. He said, I can't stand that up. But this is how the statements read to me and the things that he's hearing. And I just feel like if you go even just sort of nostalgically and with examples from the past, there aren't coach player relationships that really last for a career even though it kind of felt like this might be one of them just because of the type of the relationship they had and I realize that's me being naive and in hindsight it looks ridiculous now but but it kind of thought I I didn't see this moment coming personally but Tony Nadal and Rafael Nadal you know who would have who would have thought that they would split and eventually they did I mean obviously they still love one another and all the rest of it but that the time came and actually nadal had significant results after that relationship ended um you know the the most players have several coaches in their careers um and i do think that maturing process of a human being if nothing else needs they need room to to grow and and it's it's it means the coach has probably got to take a different role in their life in a way and it's that that is in inherently challenging i think for both individuals um but but but at the same time i wouldn't be that surprised if one day they started working together again just be you know they're splitting now but i don't think that that means that they won't work together again once they've maybe kind of reframed their dynamic if

28:14Matt Roberts:The issue is like they've built their relationship on the foundations of a parent-child dynamic and which one of them is now outgrown. Maybe if they can kind of redefine that dynamic in the future. Just to bring you Giri's thoughts, obviously he got to know all of the dynamics very, very well over the course of writing his book. And he was shocked. He posted on Instagram that he was extremely shocked by this news. I said, do you have any idea what happened? He said, not really. But my educated guess is that it's either that Carlos was finally sick of him or contract disagreements. He said it has to be financial or emotional because the on-court results are hard to argue with.