ATP Finals - Sinner takes it all

0:10Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast live from our respective living rooms on this fine Sunday evening. For once, tennis's timings have fallen in our favour and we are here at the advertised time of 8pm for everybody that's joined us live on YouTube. hello to you. Wasn't looking likely after the 80-minute first set, was it? We were all making contingency plans after that first set between, of course, Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner and, of course, the 15 minutes of FAF before the first ball was struck didn't help either. The set and the match, as I'm sure most of you know, were won by Yannick Sinner, 7-6, 7-5, defending his ATP finals title in front of an electric home crowd in Turin.

1:00David is live from Solihull. Do you enjoy it, David? I really did. And I think your use of the word electric is suitable because that was one of the better atmospheres that we've had, I think, on a final day at an ATP finals in many years. My memory goes back to watching Boris Becker against Pete Sampras in 1996 in Hanover, when Becker was playing the all-conquering Sampras. And that went five sets. And it's regarded as one of the great matches of all time. And that sort of atmosphere was a little bit like this one. Because even though, I mean, I think Sinner is a lot more heavily favoured than Becker would have been back then.

1:46but even so he's still playing the guy who's beat him at the most recent Grand Slam. He's still playing a guy who you feel like is capable of this otherworldly stuff and the crowd felt like they had a big role to play. They seemed to really understand their part and they made it special and I think that that all contributed to what you saw at the end with that real emotional fall to the back from Sinner. It was great stuff. Follow that, Matt. got a 90s reference to pull out of anywhere for us. Great tennis podcast. Bingo, already. David mentions the 90s in the first two minutes. I mean, I could be a cliche of myself and say that it kind of reminded me of that Federer-Djokovic final at the 0-2, which I think might have even been the same scoreline, but certainly two very, very tight sets.

2:40and you know I think that day the crowd were probably pulling more for Federer than they were Novak Djokovic whereas this time it was the crowd favorite that ended up winning it and yeah it was great honestly I was kind of tingling with excitement the whole day actually I woke up and I had a real feeling of like oh great it's it's Cine Alcaraz today plan everything around that and look it didn't go through his sets but I still think it it delivered the goods in terms of drama and quality yeah I had a really good time. So that's how we all experienced it in our living rooms. Let's speak to somebody that experienced it live in Turin joining us live from Turin Charlie Eccleshire from The Athletic.

3:24Charlie how are you doing? I'm good yeah I'm pretty buzzed after that it was great really really enjoyed it. Yeah I mean you kind I don't know when the atmosphere is translating through a screen that well, you're kind of like, oh, this is great, but how good must it be actually there in the stadium? So go on, tell us how good it was actually in the stadium. No, it was. It was really lively throughout. And I mean, even the sort of pre-match entertainment, which I know we can all be a bit eye-rolly about, and I certainly was for whatever Italian singer this was that I'd never heard of. But even that, everyone seemed really up for, which kind of set the tone.

4:05Was it not Andrea Bocelli? No, no. That's who I'd have been booking. No, I mean, that's who you'd think Sinner would have wanted as well. It wasn't Bocelli. If any of you have heard of him, fair play, I can't remember the name. I'd be surprised. But yeah, right from the start, the whole Sinner mania is really real here. I mean, like they just go wild for him. I mean, even in matches he's not playing, at change of ends, they'll show an ad that he's in for a coffee company or something and everyone just goes nuts and you think god the poor players are actually playing and that's like the biggest cheer of the day is for somebody who's not even in this match but yeah i mean they were pretty partisan um but you know respectful to alcaraz at the same time you know it wasn't like a kind of madly hostile davis cut vibe it was just everyone so loving yannick sinner um and yeah it was loud throughout There wasn't really a lull.

5:02I mean, maybe the start of the second set when Sinner got broken straight away. But the fact he then got back into it fairly quickly. So, yeah, no, it was as his other matches were as well. I mean, even the daytime one against Shelton, which was, you know, essentially a dead rubber. Even that was was a pretty good vibe. The question I have, I think, for all three of you is Alcraz had a set point in the first set of this. match had he taken that yes pointless hypothetical question incoming had Alcaraz taken that first set would this match have been different like how big a chance would there have been Alcaraz would have gone on to win like was it a few points here and there could have gone either way or was this one where Sin is better on an indoor hardcore and the chances are regardless of that one point in the first set this was destined to go Yannick Sinner's way because he is a better indoor hardcourt player at this stage of their careers whichever of you wants to go first with that feel free I would go the latter Catherine I do like it I don't know maybe you know it's like instant hindsight but I did always feel pretty confident that Sinner was going to win today I actually thought he would win in two straight but tight sets like it just it really had that feel um you know and obviously sinner hasn't lost a set here in the last two editions so we haven't seen him tested and yet maybe he would have you know that would have rattled him but i think and i asked alcries yesterday in the mix zone i said who's the favorite for this match you're the world number one but sinner is the guy on indoor indoors and he said sinner you know he said he said you know he laughed and he said it he said it all in kind of good spirits but he was kind of pains me to say it but yeah Sinner's the favorite and I and I don't know I just felt like there was not an understanding but definitely an expectation that over the course of you know would have it could have taken like three hours if Alkraze had won the first set that ultimately Sinner in the way that Djokovic for so long was kind of the tax man like you can you can go ahead against him you can build leads, you could be the better player, but he will ultimately come for you and you're going to have to pay.

7:27And that's kind of how Sinner feels indoors right now, even against Alcaraz. Matt? Well, firstly, I would shout out the 116 mile an hour second serve that Sinner hit on that set point for Carlos Alcaraz. You know, we talk about rivals and what they do to each other and I think what's been so fascinating this whole season is the way that these two players have kept coming back at each other and kept maybe adding something to their game based off the previous defeat that they've just had and it was clear at the US Open that the serve was a problem for Yannick Sinner and he's gone away he's worked on it he's improved that shot seemingly in the few weeks we've had since the US Open and I think that was massive for him today and it came up huge on that set point and they missed the first serve but so bold to go to that big second serve and I think it did catch Alcarez out a little bit I would I would agree with with Charlie's assessment I did have Sinner as as the favorite going into this one I would say the only thing that added to it in my opinion was the Alcarez little injury that he seemed to have today on the hamstring I think that totally altered his tactics and game plan in that second set in particular where actually Sinner's serve did drop off a bit and it was around 50 % first serves in and I think there was a potential for someone like Alcarez to be able to capitalize on that but Alcarez couldn't really go the extended rally route in that second set he was teeing off and going big on everything and he's so good he made it work for quite a while even though it was it seemed totally unsustainable to me but I always thought that Sinner having won that first set plus Alcaraz struggling with that injury was going to make this a straight sets match for Sinner ultimately and I do think even if Sinner had lost that first set I think that injury was was a bit of a problem and I think Sinner probably still would have turned it around.

9:38So, yes, I think that set point was big, but I would also point to the Alcarez injury. Not that it was the totally determining factor in the match. I'm not saying that. I'm not saying Sinner only won because of that, but I do think it changed things, and it kind of forced Alcarez to just be even bolder on some shots than he normally is, and we saw him be quite inefficient up at the net today. I think he was coming in off shots that he wouldn't necessarily want to come in off. And he lost his touch a little bit up at the net, particularly on the backhand volley. I think that frustrated him a bit.

10:12So I think there were a lot of factors at play. He also, Matt, he missed exactly the kind of shot you're describing. He missed, I think it was at 3-0. He then had a break point again. Sinner had broken back. And then straight away, Alcraz was at him again. And he had a break point. And he went for a lot, missed a forehand. You just don't expect him to. and it felt again a little bit part of that going for broke strategy. Yeah. David, both questions to you, both about that first set point and about the injury, the Alcraz injury. Yeah, I do feel a bit cheated that we didn't get to see Sinner try to take him out without that injury.

10:53And he may well have done, but I would love to have seen that. I would love to, because to my mind, Alkraus came out looking the better, looking the sharper. He was absolutely striping the ball very early, like he was last night, really, against Filius Ogiali, I see him. He's still not as good as Sinner, and it's no surprise to be saying this. He's still not as good as Sinner at handling circumstances and conditions. the fact that they had the 10 or 15 minute break at 2-1 juice you know Sinner comes immediately out and serves that game out to level two games or I get the sense that that Alcraz is not that he's I think his mind wanders a bit but I also think his energy levels change he starts getting worried about the person in the crowd which I understand he's a you know and I'm not saying that Sinner wasn't but Sinner is the great compartmentalizer Alcraz isn't and then you get the injury and you You get the strapping and you have to have that whole palaver.

11:53And even if he's not badly hurt, I think it sort of unsettles him. And then he's also got the other role of playing the second fiddle to the home hero who's getting all the support. And look, that's just part of the sport and he's got to get used to it. But look, you know, finger to the ear, Yannick Sinner in this match, you didn't see that once from Al Kraus because he can't do it. You cannot do that, can you, without looking like a total dick to a crowd. Do you think Al Kraz would have looked a total dick if he'd done his? I mean, it's his trademark move. I know, but he couldn't have done it.

12:29He would have got booed, I think, if he'd have tried that. Because it was seriously partisan. Even though they like Al Kraz under normal conditions, they love him. But he's against their guy. You can't do it, I don't think. And so I just think it all changes the energy. You say they love him, David, and I'm sure they do sort of in isolation. But yesterday, during the first semifinal, Charlie, I don't know if you were in the stadium for this, during the Cine de Menor semifinal, which I don't think we need to linger on sort of from a tennis perspective too long. But they showed on the big screen and to the TV viewers at home, They showed Alcaraz and Auger El-Yassim arriving for their night session semifinal.

13:21And Felix got a hero's cheer and Alcaraz got a smattering of boos. They wanted Felix to win that because he would obviously be a better opponent for Sinner in the final. I'm guessing that's just indicative of how into Yannick Sinner they are. But I was a bit like, God, you guys don't even want Sinner Alcaraz. Like, what's wrong with you? Do you even like tennis? And like, maybe they don't. Maybe they just love Yannick Sinner more than tennis. Like him winning is so much more important than the quality of the match or the occasion or anything. I mean, I think there was an element of pantomime. Yeah, I think there was an element of pantomime about that.

14:05But yes, I think their priority is absolutely Yannick Sinner winning this tournament rather than it being a great final or even necessarily who the final's against. I mean, for balance, and obviously this is different because by this point Alcaraz had lost, but when he was giving his very gracious speech, it did get interrupted towards the end for cheers of Carlos, Carlos. It may be in a slightly apologetic, sorry that we gave you nothing during the match, but we're going to give you this now kind of way. But yeah, I mean, on the energy point, I do think that's a challenge for Alcaraz and will be at this event because he's so used to having the crowd on his side and feeding off their energy.

14:43And there was a moment, I think it was as early as the third game, and he hit this incredible forehand, up-the-line winner on the run. And, you know, he's used to then a pretty rapturous applause. And, yeah, it might even have been a finger-to-the-ear moment. It was pretty early, but it definitely met the threshold for sort of quality of shot-wise. There was kind of nothing. You know, it was just like a smattering of applause as if he just hit a good serve or something. But yeah, I mean, that's something he's got to cope with. I think he generally dealt with it pretty well. But yeah, it's a huge advantage for Sinner at this tournament.

15:20I think the impression I got in terms of how he dealt with it is that he dealt with it well and that it didn't get to him. He didn't take it personally or get chippy about it. But he also was denied one of his kind of superchargers, wasn't he? Like he just didn't have that available to him today. And he uses that, that booster, I think, as, as well as anybody, anybody on tour. I did like seeing Yannick Sinner do the, like, there's a world in which if you told me Yannick Sinner is going to do Finger to the Ear, I would have sort of anticipated it potentially being a little bit awkward and, you know, him not quite committing to it.

15:59But he really, he was into it. But Yannick Sinemichurin is an undeniable vibe. It is. And I mean, David, you'll like this reference, but it's quite sort of WWE, that kind of thing, where you take the sort of signature move of your big rival. You know, it's a bit of a flex doing that. I know we're talking, Charlie. Heard your 90s tennis reference. I thought, you know, more WWF, I guess, going back to that era. Correct. But it was a little bit. What would be hilarious is, like, if that was Novak Djokovic, I think he would be reveling in being the pantomime villain. You know, he would be winding them up.

16:34That is just not in Alcrest's locker. But it would be hilarious if at some point he did kind of snap and turn heel in a match like this. I mean, I would love to see that. Speaking of lockers, Charlie, are you in a locker room right now? You're certainly sort of ensconced by lockers. Yeah, I'm surrounded by lockers. There are many lockers behind me. It was that as a backdrop or a kind of Red Bull fridge. And I thought that might look like a sort of sponsorship thing. So I've gone with the lockers. But yes, I'm very much in the bowels of the stadium. It's always hard. Like, it's always surprisingly hard at big tennis events to find, like, a room where you can do something.

17:09So I always have to go sort of burrowing around. And this was the best I could do. A room, but with lots of lockers.

17:18Shall we talk about Sinner's variety? He told us in New York after that, not quite chastening defeat to Alcaraz, but one that certainly startled Yannick Sinner in the moment in terms of the gap between them in that particular match. He was shook by it and he came to that press conference afterwards and he says, I need to go away and change my game, add more strings to my bow. We've been seeing evidence of that. He's been practising it against other players, hasn't he? In David's words, you know, playing a little bit with his new toy. and he was sparse with how he deployed it today. And there were a couple of dodgy dropshops.

18:01To be honest, there were a couple of dodgy Alcaraz dropshops. I mean, both of them were guilty of dodgy dropshops in that first set tiebreak. They both needed to put that dropshot away. And I didn't think I'd ever be saying that about Carlos Alcaraz. But there were some critical points that were won for Yannick Sinner with Variety today, and in particular, the lob. that's I think one of the shots that is going to stay with me from this match the Yannick Sinner lob kind of echoes of Andy Murray even and yeah like you and David Matt were saying on Friday's pod you can see how much satisfaction he gets from winning points like that he's like see that yeah I've been working on that it's good isn't it yeah there was an absolutely crucial forehand lob wasn't there right towards the end of the match at the end of a really long rally and i just love those moments where you see a shot that either sin or alcaraz plays where you know that like that's the defining feature that they have over the rest of the field in being able to win that point against the other one you know like that like that running forehand that alcaraz hit that charlie referenced right at the start of the match like I think Sinner wins that point against everyone else on tour but Al Kovac has got the dynamism and the incredible shot at the end of his reach to be able to hit a forehand pass there and the other way around Al Kovac approaches like that he hit a pretty decent volley and Sinner just has the options and comes up with the lob and I'm not sure many players come up with that there so I love seeing that edge that they have over over everyone else but But I must say, as much as Sinner has tried to incorporate this variety and he has been true to his word, I never thought that that was the fundamental element that he needed to beat Carlos Alcaraz.

19:59I always thought it was the serve. And I think the changes on the serve that he's made, he's maybe bigged up the changes in the variety to maybe keep the serve changes on the down low a little bit. But they've been happening and they've been really effective for him and they're going to be indoors that is probably going to be when he's most likely to be more effective serving but that's been big for him and adding in the variety has been helpful it was particularly helpful I think in the second set when Alcrest wasn't moving as well we did see a couple of drop shots have a bit more effect for Sinner and it's been helpful against the rest of the field you know like I do think he doesn't necessarily need it against everyone else but it is a nice string to his bow to have so that if he just generally feels a bit more confident with it and a bit more well-rounded so I'm pretty impressed that Sinner's been able to say something implement it and improve it in such a small space of time I think it goes I think it goes to show just how just how good he is really that he can incorporate these changes into his game technically and tactically and yeah look it helped him but I wouldn't say it was the absolute key to his victory here.

21:10I don't know Charlie how close you were sitting to Sinner's team but there were a couple of times where he hit a double fault and Fagnossi I think it was was telling him keep your arm up keep your arm up on the side like it's clearly you can see the evidence of it all being quite new and it's still being in the process of getting into the the muscle memory and incidentally on Sinner's team, they were extremely emotional today and all week. They've spent most of the matches on their feet. I don't know whether there was that one clip that went viral from one of the Chinese events. I can't remember if it was Beijing or Shanghai where Yannick Sinner sort of had a little bit of a gripe at his team for not standing up.

21:56And they basically haven't sat down by the looks of things since then. A lot of emotion. I mean, it's been a dramatic emotional year for Yannick, isn't it? It has been. And also, you know, his record against Alcrest just hasn't been good. I mean, he'd lost seven out of the eight before this. Four and one for the year going into this. Alcrest has been a big problem for him. And I think that US Open final defeat was really chastening, especially as it came after him finally turning things around at Wimbledon. I mean, on the variety point, the tennis viz who we work with and they give us lots of data and they showed, you know, they do variation shots, which is basically everything away from the kind of core shots.

22:43So lobs, drop shots. And he has been playing with more variety since since that US Open final defeat. That said, not so much this week, because I guess, you know, part of that is conditions. today he played with 12.4 percent um variation which is still more than what he was doing uh prior to prior to and including us open this year which was like 11.7 percent which is like so low it's like the rock bottom of the tour because he doesn't need to be playing with much you know he that's not his game to be honest alcrez was also really low today he was at about 18 percent he's normally uh for the year about 25 percent and had been at around 27 at the final so it wasn't a match really for variety overall it was just those key moments but i think if you are sinner and you've made this great play about variety even if it wasn't huge overall today you're going to be pretty chuffed with those two lobs to win the tie break that was pretty amazing and then a disguised drop shot to get the break back for three all like those were big moments and he executed and he did and you know it was i'm not sure he especially the first one in that tie break which was the really key one i'm not sure he would have hit that shot as a lob um you know at the us open or previously i think he might have just leathered a forehead because that's kind of his bread and butter so to do it at such a big moment under that kind of pressure is really impressive and they do just keep forcing the other to get better and improve the areas where they might be slightly deficient.

24:20In the same way, Alcraz, I think, was pretty gutted to lose that Wimbledon final and resolves to be more efficient, improve his serve. And he goes and wins the US Open, dropping one set and getting broken three times the whole fortnight. So it's just incredible what they're doing at a time when other players are kind of struggling to make improvements. And these two, who are close to perfection, are still evolving their game. Joe, it was nine months ago that they hadn't met yet in a Grand Slam final. And now it's just a given that they're going to meet in every major final. And then ATP finals final as well.

24:59Because, you know, when Nadal and Djokovic were meeting in all the Grand Slam finals, both in that kind of 2011-2012 period, but also 2018 to the start of 2020, but they weren't then meeting at the ATP finals. And actually in that latter period, you had a lot of quite random, you know, Zverev won it, Zitsipas won it, Medvedev won it. The ATP finals used to be, at least for a time, was a bit more unpredictable. But now they've closed that off. It's like every loophole, every possible way in, they're going to close that. Because the gap between them and the rest is just so huge. And I'm looking through the comments on this live YouTube and it's torn between like, I don't care what else is going on in men's tennis.

25:43like just as long as I get Sinner as like we're all fine and people saying men's tennis is really boring and very precarious in its reliance on these two. One of them gets injured and you know okay like Italy will be fine because they're all in on Yannick Sinner. If you're a super fan of the one that's not injured then you're fine but basically they are they're propping one another up here aren't they? They are greater than the sum of their parts and it is an absolute joy But it does feel quite precarious. And for a lot of people, the rest of men's tennis feels largely irrelevant. But just to go back to what I was saying, teeing you up for a 90s reference, David, there are great rivals in this sport that didn't meet as reliably and as often as these two and never played each other in all the Grand Slam finals.

26:40Like, who's not picking Sinner and Alcaraz to meet in the Australian Open final and make it a set? Like, I don't think you'd find anybody in the sport right now doing that. It feels just totally nailed on. Yeah, if they're fully fit, I can't believe that they don't meet in the final of the Australian Open because the difference is so vast between them and the rest. And they're both so good on that surface as well. You're right. I mean, I grew up on the Agassi-Sampras rivalry and before that Ed Berg and Becker. But, you know, they didn't meet in all the Grand Slam finals. Nadal and Federer didn't meet in all the Grand Slam finals.

27:24They didn't meet at all at the US Open. So, absolutely. I think we're looking at potentially one of the greatest rivalries of all time. when all is said and done when these two retire that is what we could be looking back on because of the amount that they could end up playing against one another the longevity over which they could be playing the evenness of it the level the the contrast they've kind of got everything that that is a great rivalry but it does come at a cost for the rest of it because a lot of it is pretty dull a lot of it is pretty inevitable um along the way and and the difference is so vast right now i mean personally i would i would still take it it's up it's up to them to to get closer my big relief is that there is the other one because it could very easily have been one of these guys and then you've just got total domination and don't you feel anxious about injury risk like statistically especially given you know insert everything everybody's saying about length of calendar and season etc one of them's going to get injured I mean Alcaraz got injured today um and it looks like he's okay but it feels it feels precarious to me the level of reliance men's tennis has on these two if you think of the the grand slams that Sin has won that he hasn't played against Alcaraz.

28:59They have been... I mean, the final against Medvedev was exciting.

29:06But the Fritz one was dull. And the Zverev one was pretty dull. And look, you get dull Grandstand finals. It's not that you don't. But I do think that that is absolutely a possibility in the future. But then I also think somebody will come along. Somebody will come along. and realise they can... But we may not know who they are yet. They're maybe about 16. Charlie, I know you've got a date with Carlos Alcaraz in a few minutes. I'm keen to get your impressions on the week as a whole. This is your first time at the finals in Turin? Is that right? In Turin, yeah. A veteran of London once, but yeah.

29:54and when I first went to Titorin my immediate impressions were oh they've just picked up London they've picked up the O2 and they've transplanted it here is that how is that how you've felt with that as a comparison point like what's your experience been yeah I mean the production is the same basically so the look and feel is is extremely familiar I mean it is quite a strong brand though I think like the ATP finals with the colors and all of that sort of thing so you instantly kind of know where you are i've it's sort of exceeded expectations um i mean matt and david were talking about this on friday like you know this can be quite a flat event at times like i remember a lot of those 0-2 ones especially the group stages were real snooze often um whereas we've had some you know we had some really good group stage matches i mean since then you know i think it will be the last eight matches or certainly seven will have been straight set so So since that kind of early and middle group stage period, it hasn't been kind of really close.

30:53But that said, there have been some good straight set matches within that. The Cine factor is just so big because that gives it all such a kind of focal point. Like it feels a little bit like when a host nation at a major footballing tournament or any tournament, when the team goes all the way to the final or something, so there's still that energy. And it can be a bit of a sag if the home nation does go out. having Cine here means everyone's so invested and engaged um and even you know like the you know the Alcaraz getting booed and that sort of thing when he's shown on the big screen which is kind of nuts but it does also show how much people are into this you know this is not a a crowd where the semi-final is a bit of a sort of you know where people aren't really that switched on you know sometimes at the o2 certainly that kind of midweek daytime crowd which is a lot of corporates could feel a bit flat don't really get that here um so i think it does have a kind of edge and an energy to it and it will do as long as sinner is so good and just just tennis wise tying it into the tying it into our last discussion point has the week up until today felt like a formality to you have you been like this is fun but you know i'm a i'm away from home missing my family can we just fast forward to to the final please because we all know where this is going I mean I think the at least there were the subplots of like Alcrez getting world number one that kind of you know sustained the group stage and I had the same thought as Matt but there was actually a bit of jeopardy in that I mean there wasn't because he beat Mazzetti comfortably but had he lost yes he would have had the second chance but he would have then been playing Sinner in the semis and he would have been a massive second favorite so it did feel a little bit like that was his chance to get one number one uh he got it i feel that more at the grand slams that feeling i really felt it at the us open and i think i said it in my voice note at wimbledon that it it is becoming a problem um the fact that basically what you have at the grand slams is at the very top level nothing until the final first week you can scratch around you'll find good stories because there'll be a player who got through qualifying and then got to the third round or something and it's like this isn't going to mean anything in the grand scheme of things but it's a good sort of self-contained story um but then you have a real sag after that lull of the sort of fourth round quarter semis here i didn't fit i didn't feel that in quite such an acute way maybe because it was ever thus in a way with the or at least with the atp finals there was an element of that before like i remember some of those ones at the o2 and it felt like Djokovic winning was such an inevitability you know that and that was only one player and you'd have these fairly meh group stage matches between a bunch of players who were just so away from his levels um so I haven't and at least this time I don't know it just felt like it was going to be such a fitting way to end the year that there was enough of motivation but no question it's an issue um and I think it depends how engaged you are it's a big issue for people like us who are super engaged for casuals it's probably kind of great that you you're almost guaranteed this incredible final at the end that said i was slightly surprised like some casual fans i spoke to found the us open a little bit uh dull especially once like you know for british fans once draper went out i think that made a difference and it was kind of like oh well that was like the one other guy who we thought might do something other than consider alcaraz um yeah And it's interesting on the rivalries point, like it is going to be one of the great rivalries.

34:32But I do wonder if there is a sweet spot of like a degree of scarcity making the matches feel a little bit more special and rare. Like you don't want that. You don't want them to not happen ever. Obviously, that's really bad at one extreme. But I don't know. And I'm just formulating this thought like in the moment. But I don't know if playing all the time is necessarily the best. Like I think sometimes it not happening all the time makes it more special when it does happen. And it makes it feel almost like more of an achievement and less just like an inevitability, which it isn't because they have to play incredibly well to get there.

35:07But in our minds, it just feels like, well, yeah, of course you're playing each other. I agree with you in principle. Like the ideal world is that these two play a couple of Grand Slam finals a year. And we're wondering and but the alternative is one of them playing somebody else in a Grand Slam final. That's also fun and exciting. At the moment, the alternative is one of them playing Alexander Zverev in a Grand Slam final or Taylor Fritz. And, you know, all due respect, like full of admiration for Taylor Fritz and what he did in particular in that match against Carlos Alcaraz. In the words of your colleague James Hansen, he is this era's great maximiser.

35:48But like the prospect of that Grand Slam final does not make my heart sing in the way that Alcraz Sinner does. Just before we let you get to Carlos, an honourable mention for Lorenzo Mazzetti. What was that like to be there for? Yeah, I mean, the fact that he's about to have a second child as well. I mean, the sort of... He can't even go to the Maldives, Charlie. like he's about to enter an even more stressful situation how is that possible after this kind of in his own words nightmare pursuit of getting to the tour finals and he gets to the tour finals and and wins a match and that's amazing but like what a time to be lorenzo mazzetti i mean i just can't imagine how kind of frazzled he is on like every level but so great that he did get a win um and i hope he can sort of have some time reflecting on it, but maybe not given what's on the horizon for him.

36:49But that and yeah, that's another, you know, that definitely added an element as well, because he's he's hugely popular here to, you know, obviously, Senna takes so much the oxygen out the room. But there's a lot of love for Mazzetti. He had his moment. Yeah, and and yeah, it was a kind of fitting way in some ways that fit for it to end them both kind of winning and losing which was sort of the theme of his this weird pursuit for the atp finals they didn't actually get there on ranking in the end but then was straight away given that reprieve and whereas this time around it was the other way he got the win and then a couple of days later he was sent packing but yeah that that that was another element that made this a great a better than average atp finals i would say because you're not always guaranteed those subplots um because we're talking about the best eight players so there often isn't the like just winning a match is an amazing thing but it absolutely was for him yeah I think that's the the scene I will most remember from these these ATP finals Lorenzo Mazzetti celebrating winning one round robin match at the ATP finals like he'd won a grand slam yeah loved it uh Charlie going to see Carlos Alcaraz um interesting to see how kind of gutted he is actually yeah and the big thing I do want to ask about is the injury and i'm sure he'll play it down like you know he's he just will he that's what tennis players tend to do but even just getting clarity exactly what it was when he first felt it all of that sort of stuff because it's hard like in my piece that i've written off the match it's hard to really talk about because until you've heard from the player you don't want to overstate it or undersell it but um yeah that'll be something that will go into the once the quotes are added i think will be sort of him giving some context on that but um yeah i don't imagine he'll be too crushed because really like when they play it's the rest of the field that's the big loser i mean and i think this was a fitting end to the year because two grand slams each and that but alcries gets world number one cinna has atp finals like whose year would you rather have they you know it's kind of either or but but it's it's fittingly even-handed because this year has been about and last year has been about two players not one really that's where we are it's the duopoly it's not a monopoly like it has been um and for them you know it just feels like everyone's a winner kind of especially the fact now as well that sinner was able to close that gap 4-2 for this year is very different to 5-1 um jody forgetting the six kings slam i do not include this i did not forget it uh i'm absolutely not including the six kings quite right the practice set that they played at the start of this week.

39:38Go off, Charlie. The record, 6-1, 6-3. I'll ask about the Six Kings slam. How big a factor, Carlos, was the Six Kings slam? Go and ask him that important journalistic question, Charlie. Thank you very much for your time. You got a little round of applause earlier in the show. Oh, well, that's nice. But the applause you can hear is the Bull Boys have now come into this area. so that's where the sort of background cheers are coming from. They're having their sort of debrief, their demob happy. They're enjoying your contributions to tonight's tennis podcast, Charlie. They love the tennis podcast, these Italian ball boys.