BJK Cup - Italy’s Dynasty

0:10Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast on this fine Sunday evening. We are here to talk about the Billie Jean King Cup finals final and the Billie Jean King Cup in general. We are live on YouTube right now, which if you're with us live on YouTube right now, you already know. And if you're not, it's irrelevant information to you. But there you go. I've delivered it anyway. Matt is here, still buoyant, from a Derby Day victory late last night. How are you doing, Matt? Very well. Yeah, thank you for mentioning that so that I don't have to just awkwardly shoehorn it into conversation as I've been trying to do all day, really.

0:55How long would it have taken if I hadn't led you there? What was your plan? Oh, seconds. I think in my opening introduction, for sure. Yeah. It's just great.

1:10David is here, doesn't need a Derby Day victory to be high on life. That's sort of his natural state. Yeah, although I could do with a Seahawks win. So I'm wearing the outfit today. I can see that. Yep. Yeah. So we'll see how that goes in a couple of hours' time. But no, otherwise I'm really, really well, thanks, because, yeah, I'm quite high on Billie Jean King Cup. And tennis in general, actually, it's been a fun day of tennis to watch. And, you know, just, I mean, but tennis is sort of around the clock at the moment, isn't it, because of all the time zones. But no, I really enjoyed the Billie Jean King Cup, so very excited to talk about it.

1:49Yeah, I do struggle with morning tennis. I know it suits you down to the ground, David. It's such an interesting shift in our dynamic. Such a pain in the arse. Why is tennis on when I either want to be asleep or need to be walking the dog? Or on the golf course, apparently. Apparently the only thing I'll get up early for, particularly on a Sunday, is golf. This is the new me. I golfed. I was allowed out on the course for the first time. I basically just want to talk about golf, but like we can't just monologue. Matt can't just monologue about Fulham being Brentford and I can't monologue about golf.

2:32We are here to talk about the Billie Jean King Cup. Folks, I know that other stuff is happening in the world of tennis. We are not oblivious to that. We watched Igor Shuntek's extraordinary victory over Ekaterina Alexandre earlier today to win the title in Seoul. We are very aware that the Labour Cup is happening, although there is just no amount of pumpness in the world that could make me watch Kasper Rude against Riley Apelka in an exhibition. But good luck to everybody that's enjoying it. We will be covering all of those things at our next podcast, which is on Tuesday. Tennis is getting weird with its schedules again, which means we have to get weird with our schedules again.

3:14So our next kind of totally normal show will be on Tuesday. So you don't have long to wait for our takes about Riley Opelka and Casparood. I hope you've got some because I haven't got any. Anyway, I do have takes about the Billie Jean King Cup final. So let's talk about that. Let's get out ahead of this, shall we? And call it what it is. The Elisabetta Cotciareto Apology Tour. which Italian will we underestimate next is the big question for today's podcast. I'm going with Lucia Bronzetti. Yeah, she seems a solid candidate, doesn't she? In fact, I've already done that, didn't I? I did that in the last Billie Jean King Cup.

4:00I think I underestimated her. Stop underestimating Italians. I won't underestimate Yannick Sinner, I promise. we previewed this final yesterday and I don't think any of us underestimated Italy in general but boy did we underestimate Elisabetta Cotciareto we talked about paths to victory and we thought that the USA had two paths to victory and that was either getting it done 2-0 in the singles or getting it done 2-1 with the deployment of their doubles team But we said Italy almost certainly only had one path to victory and totally wrote off Elisabetta Cotciareto. And there just simply aren't enough apologies in the world for that after having seen what she did today to beat Emma Navarro 6-4, 6-4, to put Italy in pole position to hand the bat on over to the incredible Jasmine Paolini, who was incredible, to beat Jessica Bagula 6-4, 6-2 and once again win the Billie Jean King Cup for Italy.

5:10Incredible scenes, they're an incredible vibe. It was joyous, David. I remain gutted it didn't go to the doubles but I'm prepared to eat all the humble pie that is required of me today. Yeah, me too. I'll join you, Catherine. I'm sure we can find some ice cream to go with it, custard, whatever you like. But look, I'll give a general overview. These two players and that team, I don't know who could have beaten them today. The level they found, the level in excess of even their normal level, and I include Paolini in that. I don't think I've ever seen Paolini play this well. This was unreal level that she found.

5:58I mean, straight sets over Navarro and Pagula. I mean, that in a final. It's Iga Shontek stuff, that. And, I mean, first of all, you've got Cotieretto, who you're right. I mean, she's not shown anything this week that suggested that this was coming. I mean, what is it? She hadn't won a match to get to this point. They'd been doing it in spite. She won one against China. Yeah, that's right, against China. But was on the back foot in that. Look, I've underestimated it again, even in hindsight. But I mean, it's just, I just couldn't really see it coming. And then you think, well, hold on, this is the player that beat Pagula at Wimbledon, like handily, after Pagula had just won a tournament.

6:47So I think I alluded to that. I'm just going to give myself a little pass here. I think I alluded to that very briefly in about a four-second period in the preview show, that that should just give us pause to thought that she is capable of something that is different to what we've been witnessing, even for that winner against China. But this was a return to that Wimbledon form. And it was it was it was very clear that she'd gone out knowing I've just got to take it to Navarro. I think Tatiana Garbin had probably been shouting in her face throughout in the locker room about what sort of intensity is required.

7:29I think she came out of that locker room ready to just fight somebody, frankly. And I was very interested to watch Navarro's body language with Davenport just before it started. I saw them, I thought, you know, there's no shortage of them getting hyped up either here. These players are all ready to go. And I thought at that point, oh, I think Navarro will probably put in the best performance she's put in so far. Because she looks right up for it. She didn't really have a chance. I mean, she was hanging on throughout the whole thing. And then, you know, I'm going to let Matt talk about the match point in that particular match.

8:09One of the best match points I've seen all year from both players. There's like Navarro hanging on, trying to hit her own lines and doing it, and yet still losing the point to this absolutely impossible to stop player. And that's what Paolini was like all the way through the match against Pegula. There was just the one blip right at the end, but it was more or less the perfect performance. And I think I might be at sort of I'm never going to underestimate them again territory now. even despite all that's gone before. Go on then, Matt, talk us through that match point. Well, it was one of those where as soon as it happened, I went on WhatsApp and I could see that David was typing as well.

8:55And I was like, I know we're typing about the same thing here. And I could see that you were both typing. I was like, I'll just sit back and let this happen. And it was just remarkable from Cochoretto The way that it just perfectly encapsulated her approach to that match, which, as David has outlined, is try to just rush Navarro, take her time away, be the aggressor. And she just took it to like an extreme in that she ran into a final backhand. You know, like she ended up taking this backhand. David described it in that WhatsApp as a kind of like sabre mid rally. Like it wasn't there to hit on the half volley.

9:35and yet she just ran into it, took it comically early. I'm coming in, I don't care what happens, I'm coming. And because she committed to it so well and she struck it so cleanly, it was just a winner down the line, just a lovely, lovely way to end the match. And yeah, look, I think coming into the week, because we'd seen Cochoretto play that well against Pagula at Wimbledon, I had pretty high hopes for her. I thought she'd be a good number two for Italy. Honestly, those hopes had really quashed through the week because she hadn't been that player at all. I know she eked out that win in the very first match against Ioannuri.

10:20But then I thought she was flat the entire match against Kostiuk. Just couldn't get anything going. And if she doesn't have vibes, Kocciareto, she's very diminished as a tennis player. You know, that's a big part of what she brings to the court. So I just wasn't expecting too much from her today. But she said afterwards that she knew she needed to play her best match. And, you know, we've talked about her aggressive approach. The other thing she had was that pumpness. And she was constantly doing the... I don't know who invented the pointing to the head. I always associate it most with Stan Wawrinka.

10:58I'm sure other people will claim to it. but she was constantly doing that, pointing to her head. Harriet Dart and Katie Bolter had a fight about which of them had proprietary rights to it once, didn't they? Like, neither of you invented this. Get over it. Well, I'm prepared to call it the couturetto because it was a big part of her sort of game today and what she brought to the court. And it was basically just her having this really, really positive attitude through the whole thing. And I think I maybe also got a bit swept up in Navarro's wins this week. I think she had been a slightly strange concoction of vulnerability and invincibility.

11:47She wasn't playing all that well. You felt like Cartel might be able to beat her. And yet she was winning these matches, which gave you confidence. She's coming through those. But I think she was a little bit there for the taking. And Paolini had been a bit like that as well. Obviously not today, but I had the same, a similar feeling about Paolini. Yeah, I just think Paolini has such a history of, well, I say such a history, at least like a two or three year history of stepping up in this competition. If we do trace back the ascension of Jasmine Paolini, I think we probably look at that title that she won in 2024 at the start.

12:31I think it was in Dubai, was it? You know, the biggest title of her career. But actually, I think it potentially started at the Billie Jean King Cup just before that in the back end of 2023. She seemed very transformed as a player. She grows. She raises her level in the biggest matches when it counts. in this competition. And I had a small doubt in terms of like, is she just physically going to be ready to do it? You know, it's been a long season. She's played a lot this week already, but she had it in the tank. And the four-all game in the first set against Pagula was the massive, massive turning point here.

13:10I actually thought Pagula was maybe the better player through those first eight games. But then they had this game on Paolini's serve at four in the first set where Pagula had numerous chances to break back, but Paolini held in just the most incredible fashion, but not her most remarkable service hold of the week. It wasn't quite 17 minutes as it was the other day. I think this was only 12 minutes, but still like remarkable resilience coming up with big shots when break point down. And as she'd done all week, she won the game after the big game. I've been so impressed with the way Paolini's done that.

13:50You know, like there's been this emotional high and the other players maybe just come down a little bit and Paolini's kept it up. And then she broke for the set. And then after that, as David described, she was just awesome in this one. Absolutely awesome. How incredible to have like a matchup which perfectly demonstrates the Paolini improvement over these last couple of years. She hadn't played Pagula in two years. Well, she's a different player now, two years on. She hadn't won a set against her before in 10 attempts, and now she beats her in straight sets. So the way she's able to hurt these top players now, that's why I thought, I can't think of a really top player that she hasn't to some extent troubled over the last couple of years.

14:40So why couldn't she also hurt Pagula? And she proved that today, just brilliant and just in awe of her. I wanted the doubles too, but I also wanted the Paolini vibes to continue. I sort of didn't want that match to turn in the moment because that would have meant the Paolini vibes going. It was great. Were the US slightly flat today or did they just look flat next to what Italy were bringing? I mean, I think David would have looked unpumped next to what Italy were bringing. But were the US slightly flat today? And if so, should we tread carefully here because I really don't want to take anything away from Italy at all.

15:25But should we perhaps raise the issue of the schedule, which is that the US played back-to-back days, whereas Italy had a day off in between their semi-final and final. I think they had that last year as well, Italy. I went back to Czech my sense really when I think about the tournament as a whole is that relatively speaking this has been their level throughout the competition there was a definitely Italy raised their level today so much because if you think about it they've lived a bit of a charmed life through this thing I don't think that they could have had any complaints at all if they'd have ended up in the doubles against China, first of all.

16:12I think China were really quite unfortunate not to win one of those singles. They were a set away from losing against Ukraine. You know, they're getting dominated in the singles and massive credit to Paolini for finding her level in the nick of time. And then you've obviously got the genius of Irani in the doubles. but when I think of the route through that the US had I don't think we ever saw the best of Navarro and I don't really think we ever saw the best of Pagula I think that they did their best, they've given everything I don't doubt their efforts for a minute but they weren't playing an inspired level and I don't think you can necessarily do much about that and I think that yes, maybe the schedule Pam mentioned this in our chat with her on WhatsApp today that she felt that it's a bit of a...

17:11It is a disadvantage. If you want to have that little bit of extra energy for finals day, you could do without that playing back-to-back compared to your opponents. But that does go with what we've seen all tournament long, I think, that they have not been able to find another gear. Whether you can do anything like that about that as a captain, whether Garbine actually managed to create something. I kind of wonder whether they might have been able to. You know, you look at the vibes of them afterwards. I mean, the social media stuff we've seen, I don't see that much of this stuff normally because I'm not on it that much, but you couldn't escape it.

17:50Everywhere you look, there's a song they're singing or there's a champagne they're drinking or there's a dance they're doing on the courts with the trophy after, and I'm lapping it all up. And you just think, God, this team is just feeding off one another. And I don't just, I'd be surprised if that's happening in quite the same way with the US, and particularly the two singles players that you're talking about. One of their great assets is that they are unflappable and that they're able to just give you the same demeanor regardless of what's happening. But also you were getting the same level of tennis and there was no injection there, really.

18:32Yeah. Never too high and never too low has its pluses and minuses, doesn't it? At different times. I do. I share your feeling, David, that I don't think the schedule was the decisive factor today. but I am uncomfortable with that inequality in the schedule just as a matter of principle. If this were a grand slam and the finalists, one finalist would have 24 hours of rest, maybe less, and the other would have twice as much, it's just not fair. We used to have that in the Australian Open, didn't we, in the men's, I think. We don't have that anymore but we used to. yeah we used to have a but it's two versus three isn't it rather than none versus one which yeah i mean it's still inequality but it feels less i mean and i think actually the stats show that the historically the schedule favors the person that sort of stays in the same rhythm rather than the one that has the extra day off but i think having no days off versus having a day off is quite significant and I think in an ideal world, I know scheduling, I know there's so much that goes into it that it's very easy for us to make casual statements about scheduling without fully appreciating all of the chess pieces in play but I do think in an ideal world, those two semi-finals are played on the same day somehow in future because I can see a scenario where it does feel like a decisive factor And I wouldn't ever want that to be the decisive factor.

20:12That doesn't feel right for a tournament of this significance and magnitude and meaning, personally. But that's a matter of principle rather than me feeling that it was decisive today. I think I'm right in saying that in some previous editions of the Billie Jean King Cup finals, since it moved format in 2021. I think in the past, they did have the semifinals on the same day. They had so many more matches to fit in because they had more teams. I don't think they had enough time to stagger semifinals day after day. So they're not, I think I'm right in saying that, in principle, they can do that.

20:59I think they've got fewer matches now. They've got more time, so they are spreading it out. one thing that I know for sure is that we haven't had a deciding doubles match yet in a Billie Jean King Cup final since we've had this new format you know like so what is it now five editions I think they've all been they've all been finished in the singles and look there's many potential reasons for that but it's possible that you know some sort of energy levels are a reason for that you know where one team's got more of an advantage over the other I'd have to look more closely at the data I think but yeah I do think we've had a lot of additions of this now where I feel like we've had really good tournaments and then the final's been a little bit flat um a little bit one-sided in a way and yeah perhaps perhaps the schedule does have something to do with that but I do agree with you that wasn't that wasn't my real read on on today specifically

22:09Italy is a force in the tennis world it's getting a bit ridiculous now isn't it like they it's It's a total monopoly. And I know I increasingly joke about it at Grand Slams that in week one of a slam, you look everywhere and there's just a new Italian creeping out of the woodwork, beating a Sitsapass or a Medvedev. It's pretty incredible. They've got something incredibly special going on in the water in Italy and to achieve both the depth of talent and also the absolute, you know, winning the big titles and being at the top of the sport. By contrast, you've got France, say, that kind of always seems to have the depth but has lacked the great champions over the years.

23:10Like, Italy are just doing it all, David. Yeah. Presumably other nations are looking at Italy or sending undercover tennis spies into Italy to see what they're doing and to try and implement it back in their country. That's what I'd be doing anyway. Listen, certainly, I mean, I have really only Britain as probably the comparison point, but I know that they absolutely look very carefully at the infrastructure element, the number of tournaments that Italy have in the country that they that they play it's thriving it's a thriving culture of the sport but then you've also got the sheer number of players that have come through all at once really there's a there's just so many of them as you say you often hear players from a country say oh it's really inspiring when I see my compatriots doing well and we all want each you know with Italy I really believe that with italy i genuinely feel like they are feeding off one another or inspiring one another or challenging one another there's just a there is a true vibe and i think men and women i think i think the men are watching watching this and are pumped by it i think that it's the spirit feels good within italian tennis to me and i think it does pay off aside from the whatever they're doing right infrastructure wise yeah yeah i know correlation is is sorry matt i know correlation is not causation but a couple of people have mentioned this in in the live chat and i think this is accurate or broadly accurate tennis is broadcast free to air i think in italy um and that doesn't feel entirely accidental to me that the sport should be thriving at all levels in a country where it is so easily and prominently available to watch.

25:11Yeah, I think it strikes me that when we talk about sort of Italian dominance of tennis at the moment, we're kind of two different ways that we're talking about it. There's the sheer amount of tournaments, the sheer amount of players, and that is very much what we've been talking there about infrastructure in place and all of that kind of thing when it comes to actually winning these tournaments as they have been with with Davis Cup and Billie Jean King Cup over the last few years I think I do think the main thing is they're getting buy-in from their very best players you know like Yannick Sinner is playing the davis cup jasmine paolini is playing the billy jean king cup you know like yes they've got all these players and they do have more than than others at the moment and that goes back to the infrastructure but they're playing you know like the us have a have more have way more players than italy in terms of the women's game you know and they have a similar number of men really okay They're not, they don't have a Yannick Sinner, but they have a lot of top men.

26:23But when was the last time you would say the US Billie Jean King Cup team had their A team? I mean, such a long time ago. Italy always has their A team and they play for each other. I think they get to these events and they're pumped by the memories that they had before here. Whereas the US is kind of like, oh, this is our group this week, is it? okay like we're all good we can make this work but they don't have the same buy-in to the competition and it's literally have that across the the men and the women right now is what they need the us the top players buying in and showing up or is what they need a group of players whether they're the absolute best whether it's coco golf and madison keys or not the the the a settled group of players that are also good, but they've got enough great players that you could have the American 3 and 5 and a great doubles player and it would still be an incredible team that you'd think would be competitive in the competition.

27:35Do they need the best players to show up or do they just need a settled, coherent, reliable team that you know will put their hand up and show up and maybe Davenport will pick them because they're the ones that show up and care and buy into it over a Coco Golf who might put her hand up once a year, say. Is that more important than actually... I think either. The very best. I think either. What do you think, David? I would probably lean towards the very best, really, but I think a very settled group would help. David what do you think yeah I think it's I think it's it's hard if if we were not involved in tennis or we weren't watching tennis and taking this scenario as the norm it would seem really weird I think to have something like this representing your country annually something that's calling itself the World Cup of Tennis and seeing this many players is just not bothering.

28:46I think that that would seem really weird from the outside and I think that that is a shame. From a Coca-Golf perspective, I understand it. And I think it gets down to how difficult it is to really want to maximise your ranking and also play in the team competition like this. It's very, very tough to pull it off. but yeah I mean you don't see Jasmine Paolini just not playing this thing and that's a big difference really isn't it Just circling back to Italy I know the doubles wasn't required today but it was required along the way to get Italy to the final that doubles team of Sara Arani and Jasmine Paolini is so critical to the overall success of Italy in this competition over the last two or three years.

29:48How old is Sara Arani now? She's pushing 40, isn't she? And I don't think she's going anywhere anytime soon. But for your team to feel so hinged on somebody of that age, I don't know. How much longer do we think Sara Arani is going to play? I mean, will she just go on forever? Do they need her to go on forever? I reckon she can have at least a couple more years playing like this. I wonder if she's targeting the LA Olympics, actually, as a potential. And then a seamless transition into Billie Jean King Cup, Captain C. Is she one of your marvels, Catherine? She feels like she should be one of your marvels.

30:37Zara Rani. Yeah. In fact, that's a new list, Catherine's Marvels. Good shout. I think she might be who did I call a marvel the other day I had a rush of blood to the head talk amongst yourselves I'm just going to search marvel in my whatsapp I've only ever thought of it as botick and maybe Lara Siegmund but you get too irritated by her Catherine uses other words for Siegmund

31:06marvel right it turns out I say marvellous a lot so this isn't going very well you said it during a show you said it on a podcast just sort of with real gusto and took Matt and I by surprise was it Andrea Vavasori no I wouldn't call Vavasori a marvellant not Arani would I I don't think so no I can't remember I don't think I use it willy-nilly Gosh, that's dramatic We've lost David Is he gone to find out? Is Sararani a marvel? I assume David's coming back David entered the studio, add to stage David's back, he's gone again I think Sararani is a marvel David, good of you to return You're welcome I think I pressed something I shouldn't have done yes i think she is a marvel katherine's marvels is that a new list well i need to remember who's on it if i'm going to do a new list yeah we're only just starting what a weird list sarah rani and botick van der zandt i like it i don't want to see those two play mixed doubles at something Matt how does it feel to have predicted the correct winners good weekend for you true yeah I mean it doesn't feel quite as good as Fulham beating Brentford but it's you know it's a small degree of satisfaction for sure I'm just they're a great team and you just won't catch me underestimating Jasmine Paolini and I'm glad you're both with me now on that.

33:04Italy's sixth title overall. Only the USA and Czechia have more. The USA have won 18. Czechia have won 11. Oh, Australia as well, excuse me. Australia have won seven titles. So they're fourth on the all-time list and the first to win back-to-back titles since Czechia won three in a row from 2014 to 2016. So they'll be going for the elusive three-peat in 2026. How do we feel about the week overall? This new location, new venue, slightly changed format for the competition. How do we feel about the 2025 Billie Jean King Cup finals, David? Well, it's impossible to say that the format has been anything other than a huge triumph.

33:57because of course it is. It's knockouts and look at the matches that have resulted. As sport goes, I think it couldn't have been much better. You know, yes, it would have been nice to have had a doubles in that final match and maybe one or two of the others. But I mean, in terms of the number of three-set epics, how many times have you seen round-robin play where matches don't go to three sets or don't get exciting because people, it's not that they're not trying, it's just that they don't have that edge in them because they know it's not now and ever. And it's just been a roaring success in that regard.

34:40I've been mostly pleasantly surprised by the number of people that have come out to watch or at least that we've seen on TV. There have definitely been a couple of days where I think the TV years had to work very hard to hide parts of the stadium that were completely empty and you could hear this sort of hollow cheering of a very viscivorous small contingent of fans of a team um but overall i mean that final looked like it got a lot of people in there and um and it felt big felt quite as you wanted to feel it's a first year and i've seen shenzhen with the wta finals and it didn't have that sort of atmosphere all the way through so and look China generally uh there are still all the issues that we've talked about that just go unmentioned because you know that it's inconvenient to talk about a pang shui where you know where is she how is she is everything okay and and do we just all forget about that there's loads of things that are slightly uncomfortable and and um about the whole staging of it generally i think that it looks like they did a really good job that in terms of actually putting on the event getting people to attend uh the buy-in of the teams the the sport that we saw i think there was there was loads about it that was good um and then you come to the the fact that i mean we'll we'll talk about the actual Schiontech final on this on this Tuesday show that we're doing and we'll talk about the Labour Cup but the sheer amount of other tennis going on whilst the World Cup of tennis is also going on I don't think that that happens in other sports you don't have a World Cup going on and then loads and loads of other tournaments that take away all the all the attention it just it just feels wrong to me um but in what it could control i think the billy jean king cup did did a good job and and as a sporting event and as a sort of just narratives the narratives that i i watched as the week went along i thought it was fantastic matt what about you yeah it's funny like you know new spot in the calendar new venue and yet I kind of come out of it I think feeling pretty similar things to what I felt in previous years which is that I really enjoyed it I really enjoyed the tennis that was played the competition the matches the drama following it over six days or so i think was definitely an improvement on on previous years and yet when i look at the wider tennis landscape it still feels quite small time to me compared to what i think it could be and should be and i i don't know how many how many additions of the new Billie Jean King Cup finals we give it before we sort of have an assessment on has this worked or has this not worked I think it has got a little bit better every year but it's it's still quite far away from what I would have in my mind as being like the ultimate World Cup of Women's Tennis event, you know.