BONUS - Roland Garros Re-Lived: Nicola Pietrangeli

35:05No, no, no, no, no. One left, you know, obviously, you were, you know, not, you saw you were watching how much everything costs and what you were spending. So I got£40 for the three tournaments towards my travel. So I had to, you know, you couldn't still spend extra nights somewhere. No, it's such a different world now, isn't it? Just imagine if you won it now. Well, I'm just amazed that I don't feel that they're getting enough for the French. I mean, it is a different world, as you say, and it's possibly more to do with agents and the people that run the tournament than the players. I'm sure the players were keen to win the French, whatever.

35:53How big a star did Pietrangeli feel to you at the time? Oh, he was a big star. Possibly we didn't recognise that so much on the grass season here in Britain. But for people travelling around, he was sort of a big star and attractive. And as I say, he always had a film star or two or three in tow. And so, you know, that was good for the papers. And, you know, he was, I don't think, who I would compare him with now. A bit of a Tom Cruise who played tennis. Yeah. That would be sort of a comparison in a sort of way. oh christine she's amazing isn't she and um and she i mean at the end of that call we were we were just chatting before before ending things and she made me laugh so much that i knocked my entire recording equipment off the desk and i was really worried that i'd lost the interview entirely um but fortunately we managed managed to rescue it but she's so much fun and uh and just uh just a delight to talk to so thank you to christine for for sharing her her memories of the player who won the 1959 french open the same year as she did and uh and a year later in 1960 pierre tranchely defended his title as the sixth seed this time and gloria butler once more in world tennis magazine wrote that it was a very open championship and pierre tranchely's victory was something of a surprise.

37:36If any proof were needed to point up the fact that picking the outcome of a major championship in 1960 is nothing short of financial suicide, the French championships certainly provided it. Most fans were under the illusion that Neil Fraser was unquestionably the best amateur player in the world. He was beaten in a hair-raising quarterfinal, though, by the number two-ranked Frenchman, Robert Healy. America's Barry McKay had won four consecutive clay court tournaments including the Italian singles leading into it but he was knocked out by the big guy Orlando Sarola Mr Six Foot Six himself who I would very much like to have met Roy Emerson the much vaunted Aussie he was one of Sarola's victims Rod Laver was beaten by Manuel Santana and Nicola Piatrashley who had gone out tamely to Barry McKay in Italy Well, he won the championship for the second year in a row.

38:34He defeated, as Gloria wrote, the fleet-footed Chilean Luis Ayala. And she writes that the final was a delightful match. Luis played evenly with Nicola until 3-all in the fifth, and then Pietrangeli broke serve and took three games in a row for the match and the title. He won the championship when Ayala sent up a short lob, which he knocked away. Poor Ayala! Gloria writes he'd been the finalist in the French Championships against Mervyn Rose in 1958 he'd lost that match as well on a lob that his opponent put away oh dear Lance Tingay's report in Lawn Tennis and Badminton magazine always worth a read Lance the final itself was a magnificent match Lance wrote certainly one of the best seen in Paris for years both playing at their artistic best Pietrangeli and Ayala were as evenly matched as could be possible.

39:31Each played every shot in the game with a perfection of touch and judgment that almost defied description. In fact, as one produced a masterly stroke, the other appeared to take it as a challenge to produce one of equal or better quality. Everything was done effortlessly. Everything was done quickly. A pattern of sameness had no place in the state of affairs for as the game and the game scores fluctuated from one to the other, so too did the rallies, always interspersed with every kind of spin, every kind of variation of speed and length in drop shot and lob, and of course the volley and smash in perfect form and acute anticipation.

40:12A brilliant first set saw the Italians struggling against some unforced errors, but also saw Ayala playing beautifully. The Chilean continued in this strain in the second set, but Pietrangeli had ironed out most of his shortcomings to enable him to share three of the first six games in all of which Ayala had had game points. In winning the second and third sets, Piotrangeli retained the finest edge of superiority, never relinquishing it, though always being in danger of losing it. Piotrangeli led 4-2 in the fourth set and had points for 5-2 and 5-3, but it was Ayala's turn to rise to new heights as his opponent faltered and the Chilean won the last two games in the set to love, taking 11 successive points.

40:56I love the detail that the writers would go into at this time. Lance Tingay writes that the final set went to service until Ayala was broken in the eighth game. Piatranger served at the match, aided by two neck cords, which would have broken anybody's heart. And a gallant winner, an equally gallant loser, left the court exhausted. exhausted oh dear it's great isn't it i feel like i was there pietrangeli in memories of a champion on his 1960 victory he said i went out every night i'd go for dinner with gianni clarici and gianna clarici was uh that was a great player well it's a good player in his own right it was a great journalist somebody i knew pretty well um wrote for la republica i was reading earlier that that he wrote more than 6 ,000 articles for La Repubblica.

41:51Real character of a journalist. Died in his 90s a few years ago. Well, anyway, Nicola says he'd go to Regines, a nightclub, but I'd be in bed at midnight at the latest. On the last night, though, Clerici said to me, we're surely not going to Regines tonight. I said, we have to get a Regines, otherwise it will be bad luck. I just drank coke but the story goes that I was seen dancing completely drunk on the tables at Regine's at 5am. So on the one hand it's a nasty lie but on the other hand it's a huge compliment. I'm Superman. Drunk at 5am then the next day I played four and a half hours against Louis Ayala.

42:39What a bloke. I can see why he wasn't desperate to set the record straight about about that myth i get it yeah yeah and like it just paints such a such a picture of what a different world and what a different sort of tournament it was back then and and we get that we get that again actually in 1961 just going to touch on his losses in the in the final of Roland Garros to Manolo Santana in 1961 and 1964. And in that first one in 61, Pietrangeli got to the final despite leaving the tournament halfway through for the birth of his son and then coming back to carry on playing, in the words of Pietrangeli himself, unthinkable today.

43:29On that 61 final, Pietrangeli was the favourite as the two-time champion previously. And he said, everyone was sure I was going to win. I was up two sets to one. And then the light went out and I just stopped playing. So Santana came back to win it. And there's this incredible scene where Santana's up at the net at match point and not really knowing where he is or what to do. He doesn't jump over the net. He goes under the net, Santana, to go across the court and greet Pietrangeli. and he hugs him and pietranglese says we were friends the whole spanish and mexican contingent called me captain um so that was a really nice special scene obviously the one that that richard remembers from his his first ronand garros and gloria butler in world tennis magazine again writes this was unquestionably one of the greatest finals seen in paris the tennis was nothing short of sensational through most of the match.

44:33Every shot in the book was employed by both players, each as an artist in his own right. The tactics, the shots and even the personalities of the two protagonists contributed to a very memorable final. Pietrangeli is always a delight to the crowd. He is what the French call a fantasiste to his fingertips, A genius at the game and a two-time winner of the title, one was sorry to see him lose. As for Santana, he too is every bit an artist. He's quiet and well-mannered, and he provides somewhat of a surprise when he suddenly explodes into action with all the temperamental force of his Spanish inheritance.

45:18Explode is the only way to describe what happens when Manuel takes over. Santana not only possesses speed, but in between bullet-like forehands, he shocks his opponents with delicate drop shots. Does that sound familiar to anyone? One follows another with such startling speed that the opponent is never given time to recover between points. Santana deserved his victory, and both he and Nicky provided Parisians with their biggest tennis thrill in years. so a very very memorable final between them and it happens again a few years later in in 1964 and again Santana comes out on top um by 1964 Pietrangeli's you know his forces were maybe fading a little bit but still good enough to get to the final and he says that he'd become very popular with the with the French crowd in that time he said as a foreigner I'd become very French so when the French players lost everyone supported me and in this documentary Memories of a Champion you can see Pietrangelo tearing up as he talks about this moment after he'd beaten Roy Emerson in the semi-finals in 64 and he'd gone back to the locker room and this noise was happening and he was told you've got to go back out there they're all cheering your name they're cheering for you and he said it was quite something that had never happened before he said I played against Manolo again in the final and I could have won I had three set points in the fourth set and he was exhausted but I didn't win I played four finals I could have done worse and yeah talking about that relationship that he had with Santana Pietrangeli said it just wasn't the same back then we stepped on court and played Manolo and I would go to Regines again almost every night we didn't do anything special the next day he was my enemy but now he's my friend we're not playing until tomorrow so they would they would share time together in the nightclub and then face each other on court and he says nowadays the difference between winning and losing is a million euros so it's definitely worth it but people would always say to me if you train more you would have won more and the answer is yes but i would also have had a lot less fun

47:49yeah there's a lot of wisdom in there a lot of wisdom so of course Pietrangeli is most associated with Roland Garros and that's that's the reason he's our focus of this particular episode our our relive that we do before each slam this is our Roland Garros one but he had success at the other slams never got to a final in singles elsewhere uh closest he came at Wimbledon was a semi-final and you know he was in in the 60s he was very much existing in that Australian era the halcyon days of Australian men's tennis of Rod Laver and Ken Rosewall and it was Rod Laver that he came up against in that Wimbledon semi-final in 1960.

48:39Pietrangeli was seeded fifth. He'd beaten Britain's Bobby Wilson in the third round 6-2, 4-6, 13-11, 6-8, 6-3 in a match containing five rain delays. Lance Tingo wrote at the time, had only the match between Pietrangeli and Wilson had continuity, it would rank as a minor classic. It began at two o 'clock and did not end till seven and Pietrangeli eventually achieved his win at the sixth attempt. That is to say it was in the sixth playing spell after five intervals for rain which came at the oddest intervals. In all Pietrangeli and Wilson played for 149 minutes and rested doubtless in acute suspense for 147.

49:27With so much interruption it was not easy to pinpoint the turning points Though there remained at the end the memories of the glories of the Italians' backhand passing shot down the line, a stroke that more than any other encompassed the defeat of Wilson. Where Pietrangeli showed his superiority, marginal though it were, was in his ability to respond to the important points with something extra special. It indicated more reserve of power. And Arthea Gibson talking to Richard Evans said,

50:26demonstration of artistic tennis and that little passage there is such a lovely like tennis relived intersection isn't it because of course when we did the Althea Gibson show her relationship with um with Richard Evans was such a big part of that and so fascinating that he was sort of they were assigned together to you know write pieces together during Wimbledon and Yeah, incredible. So he's beaten the Brit Bobby Wilson in the third round. He beat the number two seed Barry Mackay. Mackay, David? Mackay? I said Mackay. Let's go McKay. So he beat number two seed Barry McKay, 16-14, 16, sorry, 16-14.

51:18So hard to read tennis scores, isn't it, when it starts. 16-14, what is going on? 16-14, 6-2, 3-6, 6-4 in the quarterfinals. Lance Tingay again said, the gifted Pietrangeli is the first Italian to reach the men's singles last four at Wimbledon. His smooth shots projected with the effortless ease of the artist he is probed the raw power of McKay and adroitly proved that when all is said and done, he who controls his ground strokes fares better than the one who wields pace first and control afterwards. I think that's definitely transferable, isn't it? That still applies today. So he's into the semifinals is Pietrangeli and he comes up against the great Rod Laver who triumphed 4-6, 6-3, 8-10, 6-2, 6-4.

52:15And that despite Pietrangeli coming from 1-5 down to win that third set and take a two sets to one lead. And Matt has said here that when he started researching this, he was expecting to read about a classic, but it was actually an eristreed match heavily impacted by wind in which neither player produced their best tennis at any point. It was such a disappointment. I was like, oh, Peter Trangley-Lever, Wimbledon. I bet that was epic. And then all these reports were like, it was a bit of shit, actually. Like that one from Alcaraz Sinner a few years ago, not the classic last year when we just said, what if it's crap?

52:55Yeah, and it sort of was, but the scoreline makes it look like it was good. but it wasn't. David Gray in The Times wrote, wind and temperament were the guilty parties in the dull patchy match between Labour and Pietrangeli. They are both players who refuse to follow the safe, easy middle way to victory. Labour, a gambler like almost every other living Australian, cannot do anything other than take risks. And Pietrangeli, polished and sophisticated, has to make strokes. They both fought a wind that seemed to be blowing around in quick circles and the number of errors that piled up on either side, strangling promising rallies at birth and turning winning positions into cold losses, showed how little they succeeded.

53:44Lanz Tingay called it a mediocre contest in The Telegraph. He said for much of the time, both men were tense and nervy, unable to lose the bonds of anxiety that restrained both their ease of stroke and movement. Neither ever played his best except for the occasional brilliant shot The occasions when brilliant shots from either side coincided in the same rally were very rare indeed One needed, I think, to be familiar with the players to appreciate the tautness of the struggle The main excitements came from the uncertainty of it all And with both men so in and out, one could never predict from one game to another what was going to happen In the end, Leyva was more true to himself and that was why he won He proved, in short, to be a better match player, better equipped to meet the harsh demands of a battle of this class.

54:33And that Wimbledon didn't end up being won by Rod Laver. Laver, of course, into the final via that victory over Pietrangeli, but was beaten in that final by Neil Fraser. But Fraser had survived an enormous scare himself in the quarterfinals when he saved five match points against Butch Buchholz in the fourth set. Butch Buchholz of Butch Buchholz Arena at the Miami Open fame. Buchholz retired at 15 games all in that set, the fourth set, with an ankle injury and cramp. so that's a real sliding doors what might have been moment in tennis history so that was pietrangely at wimbledon but we can't talk about the man without talking about davis cup he finished with a record of 120 wins and 44 defeats that's 78 singles wins a record that still stands and 42 in doubles with his regular partner Orlando Sirola.

55:44As a player, he took two final losses to Australia on grass in White City, Sydney, and in Coo Young, Melbourne in 1960 and 1961. The Italians failed to win a live match in either final. But Piotr Ashley captained aside, containing Adriano Panatta, Corrado Barazzuti and Paolo Bertolucci to glory in 1976, taking them away to Chile under Pinochet's rule for the final. Italy won 4-1 with Adriano Panatta winning his two singles matches and partnering Bertolucci to win the doubles and Richard Evans wrote Panatta was the new hero but the reflected glory shone rightfully on Pietrangeli too. And we've got a treat for you now.

56:34We've got an article written by Bud Collins, the one and only you know it's such a joy when i came across this as as we said a tennis relive crossover and you know i think i think quite rightly when we did the bud collins episode we focused a lot on his broadcasting uh but here we've got an example of his writing as well uh so we're gonna we're gonna read this article it's pretty long so we're gonna read it in stages um but it's called true grit and it appeared in the march 1977 edition of world tennis magazine So a few months after this final had taken place, World Tennis Magazine had gone all out.

57:13It sent reporters, photographers over for the Davis Cup final. And yeah, it took a few months, but this was their write up. And yeah, I just think it paints a perfect picture of this final and also gives a little bit of insight into what Bud Collins was like as a writer. So here we go. It is December the 18th, 1976, at 6.30 in the evening, and a greying cherub named Nicola Piotrangeli is pacing the dirt floor of a sweatshop called Estadio Nacional in Santiago, Chile. As he promenades, Nicky does an impersonation of Atlas. But instead of carrying the universe on his shoulder, he's holding a demiglobe that, to some, means the whole world.

58:02The Davis Cup. Whatever you call Dwight Davis's big silver birdbath, don't confuse it with all the come-lately bric-a-brac hardware and hard sell set into motion by the schlockbrokers trying to corner the tennis market. There is only one Davis Cup. It has nothing to do with the various World Classics, Invitationals, Challenges Series, Slams, Slims, Pre's, Round Robins, Square Robins and winner take all but half, which may or may not be what you were looking for when you bought a ticket. This cup, bought by a Harvard kid named Dwight Davis in 1900 with$750 change from his lunch money is a singular bauble and represents a singular experience for high-grade hackers 58 countries had a shot at a champagne swilling party beside the ageing Punchbowl in 1976 then only two, Chile and Italy and then just one.

59:09It is that cup, straight out of a Boston jewellery store and more worldly in its travels than any sporting prize that the Italian captain, Nicky Pietrangeli, hoists and holds aloft like a torch to the suddenly warm applause of a defeated yet muy simpaticos gathering of six and a half thousand Chileans. The pasta kid, Paolo Bertolucci, and the noblest Roman of them all, two, Adriano Panatta, have beaten Jaime Filol and Pat Cornejo, three six, six two, nine seven, six three, in the decisive doubles. The noblest Roman of them all, one, Pietrangeli lifts the cup from its base. Italian flags unfurl in red, white and green, rejoicing throughout the arena.

1:00:03Italians embrace and weep Jesus Christ oh mamma mia che drammatica squeaks Milanese novelist playwright journalist Gianni Clerici for Pietrangeli his team Panatta Bertolucci Barrazzotti and Zuggarelli and other Italians who journeyed to the bottom of the world to get to the top of it in tennis there will always be a part of their heart that stopped at 6.30 on December 18, 1976.

1:00:40Oh, wow. But let's carry on reading from his piece. In 1960, when Pietrangeli, an effortless champion and charming man about many towns, was making his tennis reputation as noblest Roman of them all, winning the French Open title twice, something no other Italian had won at all until noblest Roman II, Panatta, came along. Paolo Bertolucci was a nine-year-old living in Fortidamame, following those feats, and remembers very well reading about Nicky, about his leading the team to Australia. I thought I could ever play Davis Cup. That would be something, Bertolucci said. Then when I did play on the team in 1972, I thought, oh, wouldn't it be something to win the Cup?

1:01:31Now, now, he said, minutes after Phil Oll had clunked her last forehand into the net. Now I have everything. Of course, life must go on. And the feeling of having everything is as fleeting as one of those Roman ice creams in the mason of Foro Italico. Still, at least the unexpected moment had been trapped, if only for the moment. Yes, 1960, Pietrangeli laughed. Sure, we got to the final, Orlando, Sirola and I. And the next year too. It was a nice thing for Italy. But we had no thought of winning. Not against those Australian teams. Rod Laver, Roy Emerson, Neil Fraser. Not on Australian grass. The Aussies won 4-1 in 1960.

1:02:16No problem. Piatrangeli beat Fraser after Italy had lost the first four matches. And it didn't matter. It was five loves the next year. Australians felt the Italians packed it in without trying. Newspapers down under said Fettuccine was sturdier than Piotrangeli and the Colossus Sirola. Piotrangeli says, even if you had a team as good as the Australians, which nobody did then, the Aussies still had a tremendous advantage because in those days of the challenge round, the team with the cup waited at home to play the country that won the tournament. We were clay court players, and all of a sudden we had to play the final on grass.

1:02:56Nowadays, everybody has a better chance. And you see in the last three years, three different countries have won. South Africa, Sweden, now Italy. The Australian-American domination seems over. It's harder for them when they have to play through the entire tournament. But until they did away with the challenge round in 1972, I never gave Italy a chance, even after I didn't think much about it. then I became captain Sweden had just won with one player Bjorn Borg and I said well if they can do it with one why can't we we've got a team I said it's fashionable in many quarters today to lament the Davis Cup that it isn't important anymore that it's a shame it's so difficult to to schedule and that many players don't have time to play.

1:03:46This is what Bud Collins writes. This translates as Davis Cup is so tough and tense that a lot of players pretend it doesn't amount to much so they can justify ducking this singular experience for more and easier money elsewhere. That's their business, as in the case of Jimmy Connors, who said injuries prevented him from playing for the US against Mexico in December, but performed instead at a tournament in Las Vegas. But even though Davis Cup may not be as puffed and publicised as the commercially oriented events, the winning of the 77-year-old Punchbowl remains an incomparable odyssey in sneakers, growing more difficult each year.

1:04:27Bud continues, maybe no year was as trying for a team as 1976 became for the Italians. They were in the final fair and square with victories over Poland, Yugoslavia, Sweden, Britain and Australia 3-2. Borg's absence through injury hurt the Swedish cup holders obviously. Zugarelli was the Italian's snake in the grass beating Roger Taylor in the opening match to fire the 4-1 win over Britain. Bertolucci's fine Italian hand killed us, says Aussie John Newcomb, of his and Tony Roach's straight set ripping by Paolo and Panatta in the vital doubles. However, John Alexander, who had given Panatta his only cup beating in singles, knocked off Barrazzuti.

1:05:12It was two all. That left Panatta to overcome Newcombe in a dazzling fourth set and send Italy into a final that abruptly became not a seat of honour, but an electric chair. Instead of hailing the conquering heroes, flocks of their countrymen turned to flailing them. The attacks, journalistic diatribes as well as personal insults and threats illogically fell on the players because their final round foe was to be Chile. The soccer stadium adjacent to the tennis facility had been used as a makeshift prison camp following the 1973 coup and many Allende sympathisers had been shot there. Russia had defaulted the semi-final to Chile, a protest by the Soviet government against the military dictatorship in that country.

1:06:01Left-wing parties in Italy demanded that Pietrangeli's team also forfeit. It became a cause célèbre, debated inside and outside of the chamber of deputies. While the debates raged, the players were reviled. You can't imagine how it was, says Panatta. We were called fascists because we wanted to play the final. Pietrangeli's family was threatened. Bertolucci said it is maybe 10 million Italians who are against us playing. A minority, but they can make it tough. We'd better win. Then maybe they'll forgive and forget. But if we don't win, maybe we better not go home. I'm not joking. Maybe if we lose, we better fly to Paris and go to Italy by train in the middle of the night.

1:06:45During the slanderous campaign against Italian participation in the final, Gianfranco Camelli, secretary of the Italian Tennis Federation, was virtually imprisoned in his office by hostile demonstrators for three hours. Terrible, says Camelli. But they cannot shake our belief that sports must be above these politics. Finally, the government agreed, resisting all the pressures. It took the tacit approval of the Communist Party, which publicly opposed the decision to play. But the players had to go through a lot, I think, said Camelli. They show courage. And they did. Most athletes are apolitical, tending towards conservatism as privileged people.

1:07:29They live sheltered and protected, pretty much oblivious to the struggles out there in the real world. Depending on your viewpoint, Pietrangeli and co are either heroes in disregarding great animosity to win the cup for themselves in Italy, or insensitive dolts in putting games playing ahead of concern for Chileans who have suffered at the hands of a military dictatorship. Whatever your thoughts, there's no denying their grit. I happen to believe, this is Bud's voice of course, that the Italians were right in playing. This doesn't mean I'm boosting dictatorships, but if you ruled totalitarian regimes out of international sport, who'd be left to play?

1:08:09Russia knocking Chile for repression is as touching and plausible as three American presidents making war in Vietnam in the name of peace. Maybe Davis Cup has become too nationalistic and political. Possibly Dwight Davis was naive in believing that the competition could enhance international goodwill. Sport is probably overrated as a harmonious instrument, but I believe there is still some value in the people-to-people contacts of Davis Cup. Obviously, these questions affecting athletes and sports nuts are seldom decided by them. But the Italians were able to decide for themselves, and they made the hard, even risky decision to go to Santiago.

1:08:54Pretty extraordinary, isn't it? and yeah pia trangeli was such an important figure in persuading people to let them go and and play that final and yeah i just thought bud's article like on the one hand it's so of the time and that specific conflict but also there's so much there that is still the case today about the schedule and about whether countries should be allowed to play davis cup it's it's kind of remarkable how much changes and how little changes over the years um and yeah so they won that they won that final their first davis cup and then they reached the final again in 1977 did italy but they couldn't couldn't defend the title they lost to australia and what's interesting is that a year later Pietrangeli was ousted as captain by star player Adriano Panatta by the way my mum talks about Panatta like Christine Truman talks about Pietrangeli I was telling my mum that we were doing tennis relived on this era and suddenly I was hearing about posters on bedroom walls and all that kind of thing um and yeah so Panatta had helped Italy win the Davis Cup as as we heard in in 76 and he was this incredibly accomplished player following on from pietrangeli he was he was the only person to beat bjorn borg at roland garros was panetta and he did it twice once in 1973 and then again in 1976 on route to to his title there and pietrangeli and panetta clashed you know um after after being ousted pietrangeli apparently interrupted a live television broadcast where panatta was a guest and publicly confronted him about that ousting in a stunning on-air clash and there was a documentary produced in italy a few years ago called una squadra which i think is translates as a team and it was all about that 1976 davis cup victory but it was also about the contrasts and the conflicts which kind of define the relationship between Piotr Angersley and Panetta and ultimately led to the breakup of that team.

1:11:20I do think an ousting is also a hallmark of a great yarn, a great historical yarn. It's very tennis relived, an ousting, isn't it? Yeah, I do like an ousting. It's like a bungling is part of our current vernacular. Yeah. And yeah, as you'd expect, Piotr Angersley didn't take it well. He said, the gang of four organized a plot to send me away. For the record, the previous year we'd reached the final, and yet after a first and a second place, the reward was a kick in the butt. So I think things were pretty tense for a while between Pietrangeli and Panetta. Their relationship did improve over the years, but I think all throughout the rest of Pietrangeli's life, they would clash a little bit, I get the sense playfully, but also quite sharply debating who had the better career, who was the more important to Italian tennis and all that kind of thing.

1:12:24And when David spoke to Vincenzo Martucci, he talked about this relationship between them and he described Pietrangi as like the master and Panetta as the student. and they met in this symbolic match for Italian tennis at the 1970 Italian Open when Panetta beat Pietrangeli and it was kind of a passing of the torch moment and I think from that point onwards tensions were always quite high because of that word we used earlier, ego. They both very much had it and especially Pietrangeli. But Vincenzo said that Panetta did too. Vincenzo said Panatta was smarter so he didn't always say what he thought his eyes said to you the same thing that Pietrangeli was saying with his mouth which was a lovely turn of phrase from Vincenzo and just described the difference between them but Vincenzo said they were very similar big champions and they wanted you to remember that the difference was how they said it one was saying it clearly Pietrangeli and the other was not and that was Panetta but Vincenzo said really between them was pure love when you love someone you have battles they were close they understood each other with a look and they talked the same language the beauty of tennis and yeah I think the way people talk about Panetta is quite similar in terms of you know how attractive he was and And what a nice game he had to look at.

1:14:01They would use the same sorts of things for Piotr Angeli as well. So a very, very interesting relationship between Piotr Angeli and Panetta, which had big ups and big downs. Yeah, which tends to be the case with big egos, right? If you're kind of too similar, you're sort of threatened by one another. And it's Vincenzo that we're going to hear from now. He was a long-time writer for Gazetta della Sport, the leading sports newspaper in Italy for 30 years, Vincenzo. And we're also going to hear from Gaia Piccardi, who's somebody we've had on various different shows before. She's one of the prominent tennis writers in Italy currently.

1:14:47She writes for Carrera della Sera, one of Italy's oldest and most widely read and influential newspapers. And they're going to paint a picture for us here, not only on Pietrangeli and their relationship with him, but how he was viewed in Italy and in particular over the last few decades leading up to his death. Because he kept himself, well, I mean, I think it was his intention. He kept himself relevant. He was always available at the end of the phone for anybody that wanted a quote on Italian tennis. And he wasn't afraid of who he pissed off. You know, one of his last actions, certainly last actions that the public heard about was him criticising Yannick Sinner for his decision not to play the Davis Cup finals last year in Italy.

1:15:42You know, it was pretty much from his deathbed that he made those comments. And that's pretty fascinating. And his relationship with Yannick Sinner is pretty fascinating. And Vincenzo and Gaia here paint a very, very vivid picture of that for us. So here is David in conversation with the brilliant Vincenzo Amartucci and Gaia Piccardi. I cover tennis from a long, long time, maybe too much. I started in the 60s means that Nicola Pietrangeli was a myth was maybe the only tennis player from Italy which was like a sinner now you know, just the only one in the world very, very famous like Nicola was and then he was a gentleman he was really someone of a person of class a person which is always elegant in his movements.

1:16:49And tennis at that time was still a sport for elite. And he was really someone completely separated from the reality. He was not like a singer who lives in a sport which in Italy is popular. And so he was someone like the Jesus of a sportsman. Someone different, someone completely separate. And Italy was so small, so he was like an hero. Yeah, yeah. So was he loved? Was he loved in Italy by everybody? Was he very popular? He was not so popular. I mean, this is the thing he was not happy about. in the sense that it was, as I told you, it was separated from the reality. In Italy, tennis was really an elite sport for few people, for few rich people.

1:17:52Panatta, which arrived later, was someone who represented the crowd, the people. So in this sense, he was not so loved. And then he didn't do so many things to be loved. because he was someone who every time he wanted to be, his ego was very big, and he wanted to be the number one every place. And every time he would remind you that he was Nicola Pietrangelo, he won this, this, that, this, this, this cup, and that. So he was not, the character was not so fantastic. The player was incredibly beautiful. So the champion was really great. The person was someone who was always in the clouds, upstairs.

1:18:47You understand? Yes. What was he like for you to deal with as a journalist? It was fantastic because he wasn't able to take one word in his mouth and he was able to say everything, even if he cannot do it. I mean, he was famous for that because after five minutes, he can tell you everything. He had a lot of problems with the players. He said something wrong. So Pietrang, he liked to talk. He liked to fill your newspaper. He liked to talk. He liked to say all the time how good he was, how unfair was the destiny because he didn't take so much money like they take now. so I was a little bit, you know, all time saying, hey, my time, I take just 100 lirons, you take 2 millions lirons, it's impossible, it's possible, it's not fair, it was always like this, you know, me and you, me and the others, but finally, finally, it was, for us it was perfect because you can write whatever you want, I mean, it was enough, after five minutes, he said, no, I don't talk about this and then he started, you know, the beginning where Sinner was against Sinner because Sinner says no to the Davis Cup and then he understood that he was a great champion but at the beginning he said something which is not so good I mean when Sinner first time he said no to the Davis Cup he was clearly against the player but very very heavily you know and then he has to change his opinion and his attitude but he did the same with other players you know in the past Bolelli, Simone Bolelli and other players they say no to the Davis Cup and he was very very strong with his position and in the same time he was always saying I was why?

1:20:49Another story was always when you put the records you talk about open era and before and every time he say remember you never say that I was number three in the world just because it was not the open area but I was number three in the world so things like this become always a big big chat because Miss Peppa you say the most important Italian players has been Panatta at that time it was four in the world then I arrived a senior but before so I said no the best was me I was three so Panatta was answering no it was me because it was another play another game and then again so it was funny for us it was perfect but you know when you are the ambassador of Italian tennis like the camp and he has a stadium I think it's the only as he told he told all the time he was remembering you all the time I think I am the only player still alive, which has a stadium in his name, like we have, the Nicola Pietrangeli Stadium, he was always reminding you of this.

1:22:11I am this, I am this, and you are nothing. This was the story. Well, Nicola was the history of our tennis. First of all, we used to call him Nick because he was very friendly. so you could call him anytime, anywhere and he was ready to give you an answer. He has been the pioneer of Italian tennis as we know he played with the golden era of Australian tennis players Rob Lever, Rosewell, blah blah blah. He was number three in the world when the ranking system didn't exist and a bunch of Anglo-Saxon journalists used to gather to decide who was the best tennis player in the world back at the time.

1:23:02To me, in my opinion, without Nicola, nor Adriano Panatta, nor Yannick Sinner would have existed. Wow. And I'm speaking about the three totems of Italian tennis. Nicola, of course, knew that and he wanted the people to know that. that he was the first, that he was the best, that he was Nicola Pietrangeli, like a trademark.

1:23:31For example, he made a point many, many times that he played in the Italian Davis Cup team 164 times. And I'm pretty sure this is a record, one of the few records, I guess, that Yannick is not going to break. So to the Italian public opinion, generally speaking, Nicola will always be the totem of an era that no longer exists. So he was like a dethroned king, but always and forever king. wow so you say that he he was always ready to take your call yes if you wanted to call what what sort of reasons would you call him for well many reasons uh when i wanted to have an opinion on a specific tennis player um when i met rod lever in wimbledon or rosewall in paris and i wanted to ask Nicola what was his personal experience with his legends of tennis.

1:24:48And Nicola has always been very generous, not only with me, with everybody, with interviews, opinions, sometimes polemics. So there were colleagues of mine who called him to have a a brand new polemic. This is not the way that I used to think about Nicola, of course. He's been a point of reference for my generation of sports writers, but also for the next one. Think that he gave interviews from a hospital bed shortly before dying. He never stopped. So there were no topics that he couldn't talk about. He was very proud of his achievements. He fought to defend his kind of tennis, the wooden rackets, the white felt balls.

1:25:49Yeah, I would say that he was the paladin of the past that he wished would never die. And defending the past was defending himself. Wow. He took up at a certain point, four or five years ago, he took up a challenge with Yannick Sinner from the distance. Nicola did everything, not Yannick. But Nicola's intent to me was clear. He didn't want to belittle Yannick. Rather, he wanted to keep his own memory alive. That's how I see it. And what do you think his opinion of Yannick was? And I realized that in the last year, maybe his health wasn't so good, but he knew enough, I think, about Yannick to have an opinion.

1:26:46So, Nicola, as you said, has always been in Rome watching the Italian tournament. he was like he was always in Davis Cup so he saw many Yannick playing many times I think he liked him the way that Yannick played but was so so so different from his tennis that he couldn't maybe he liked him in the inside but he couldn't express it I don't know how to say. And he was always, always very concerned about defending his own tennis, his own memory, his own past. So when he said that he played 160 times in Davis Cup and Jannik would never break the record, he didn't intend to be polemic. It was just a fact.

1:27:50But you know sometimes what happens with journalists and newspapers, They pick a phrase and do the headline and take out the phrase from the context. So Nikola, sometimes this happened with Nikola, but he didn't dislike Yannick, not at all. He spent wonderful words for Yannick since the last days. Do you think that Yannick knew that? Do you think he appreciated Nikola as well? My opinion, my feeling is that Yannick never really tried to get along with Nicola. First of all, they met, yes, in Davis Cup, but Yannick was playing, Nicola was watching. So I don't think they have, they never had a coffee together or a meal together.

1:28:47This never happened. Too many years of difference, too many opinions. Nicola was too opinionated to get along with him quickly. You had to want to go beyond the mask. because Nicola could be a little grumpy sometimes, but also warm, charming, full of stories. So, you know, the kind of guy that could give you three, four different headlines for the interview. So how could you not love him? Especially in your job. That's right. And just finally, Gaia, I mean, I've heard a few stories that he and Panazza would clash occasionally. and very different personalities maybe? Yes, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:29:45Nicola was, you know, that Nicola was the Davis Cup captain who won the cup back in 1976, sorry, in Chile. And Nicola took pride of the victory more than the players and the players didn't like that. But again, as Nicola was a man larger than life, his opinions were just like him, larger than life. So he was sharp. He could be sarcastic sometimes, very intelligent. And I cannot help but remember that we owe Nicola the departure of the Italian Davis Cup team for Chile back in 76. Because as we all know, Chile was a dictatorship and the Italian government, or a part of it, most of it, didn't want the Davis Cup final to be played in Santiago.

1:30:51So Nicola had to fight like a lion. He exposed himself. He went live on television many times to talk about that. And he won. So he won twice. As a captain, he took the team to Chile and he won the cup. And he has always been keen to stress and underline that the fact that the Davis Cup team played the final, it was his, how can I say, his pride. His achievement. That's right. Sorry. His achievement. His achievement. This was maybe among all the achievements that he had in his career and in life. He worked on television after tennis, so he was a very well-known and beloved public figure in Italy.

1:31:55But the fact that he fought to take the team to Chile, it was his biggest achievement ever. And he underlined that until his last days. And he's right because it's part of our tennis history. Yeah. I imagine he loved having that court named after him. Oh, yes, yes, yes. And he wanted his funeral to be hosted in Pietrangeli court, you know. So they had the coffin there on Court Pietrangeli. And all the old players from the old generation showed up. Of course, Adriano Panatta was there. And I have to say that I'm very sad that no one of the young tennis players of the nouvelle vague as we call it of italian tennis showed up and this is very sad to me yes i can understand that i can well it's lovely for us to remember him and with you so thank you so much gaia you're welcome david lovely to talk to you and always a pleasure i'll see you in paris look forward to that take care thanks again you're welcome ciao bye bye Just incredible contributions from Vincenzo and Gaia there.

1:33:36I mean, blown away by Gaia and what she had to tell us about the relationship between Pietrangeli and this current generation of Italian players, obviously in particular Yannick Sinner and how complicated that is and how, you know, I really can see, I can really see both sides of this. Like he clearly felt not disrespected, but insufficiently respected by Sinner and the younger generation and felt forgotten about, you know, probably felt like they thought, well, that was ages ago. What relevance has that got to me? And I think by the sounds of things, Yannick Sinner felt like Pietrangeli was trying to kind of use him to keep himself relevant.

1:34:29And, you know, he knew that spouting out an opinion about Yannick Sinner would get headlines. And that was to his benefit because he was he was a big ego and was wanted to keep himself relevant and to keep his legacy and memory alive. And that is that's understandable, I think. But I can also understand why Yannick Sinner didn't didn't really warm to that or appreciate it. And it sounds like, you know, if at the very start of things, when Yannick Sinner was, you know, tipped for greatness, somebody had taken him aside and really explained to him the significance of Pietrangeli and got them together for a coffee.

1:35:10It could all have been quite different. But it just sounds like they just got off on the wrong note and a bit of a missed opportunity for them both. Maybe, David. Yeah, I think we have a lot of this. or I've seen a lot of it over the years, particularly because of working on the Champions Tour, which you have as well, Catherine. In my early days on the Champions Tour, John McEnroe was forever slagging off the current players of the time. And a lot of it was born out of frustration. I mean, because he felt ignored and the players weren't making any effort. But then look at it from their perspective.

1:35:55they're getting slagged off all the time by this person who's saying it was better in his day you know yeah it's it's a difficult one and actually now you don't see that with mackinac for instance i think i think the generation of federer and nadal and djokovic he was brought into the fold by then a little and he started to feel part of it again you know he commentated as we know and has been around a lot more and I think yeah with Peter Trenchley I mean listen I think it goes beyond far beyond Sinner he sounds like the kind of guy who struggled to deal with not being the big star anymore and he always wanted to be the guy you know and he wanted to be remembered and included I always remember the word included being used by Larry Stefankian in an interview with him I did several years ago for the podcast when he referenced Yevgeny Kofelnikov and how Kofelnikov was one of the chippiest, most difficult people I ever dealt with and then when he retired he became a lot easier mainly because he wasn't nobody remembered him anymore nobody had to care about him he loved it when I asked to do an interview with him on the Champions Tour David couldn't sit down and open his mouth quickly enough.

1:37:19And that's the thing. Larry would say that Yevgeny wants to be included. He doesn't want to be just forgotten about. And obviously, peer tragedy is a very different case, much more gregarious, much more stylish and charismatic than Kovellnikov ever was, and loved on certain levels by certain people. but then other people come along and take his oxygen up panatta now sinner and he he didn't want to be forgotten he was the guy you know and i mean i think some personalities don't need that i think boris beckon needs that i don't think stephen edberg needs it at all you know the two contemporaries from from the 80s but very different human beings and it's yeah it's the way that big ego so often goes hand in hand with insecurity.

1:38:15I find generally fascinating in human beings. There's like a secure kind of ego, isn't there? And there's a very insecure kind of big ego. And it does sound like Pietrangeli was a bit insecure. You know, he took Yannick Sinner's not committing to Davis Cup as diminishment of the Davis Cup and therefore diminishment of his own achievements rather than feeling totally secure in them and feeling like nobody can take that away from me. We all know what the Davis Cup was back in the day when I set my record. He felt threatened, I think, by Yannick Sinner's attitude towards the Davis Cup. And that's very human.

1:38:58But yeah, it's fascinating on a character and personality level. He sounds like he was a very complicated knot of very human things. And yeah, it's been really brought to life, Matt, by your research and by everybody, David, that you've spoken to for this show, which I've really enjoyed. So it's another one. Again, you know, Butch Buchholz coming up in this show. He was just a name on a court. and you know now I know one thing about him as well as him being a name on a court and I'm sure it'll come up in future shows and I'll learn more but like for a long time Pietrangeli to me was really just a name on a court and that's not enough so now he's a lot more yeah it's like we need tennis relived and everyone needs tennis relived in some sense or their own version of tennis relived right like sort of understanding the history of the sport i think tennis tennis lends itself so much to that issue of people being forgotten right like the way that new people always come along and the sport regenerates in that way i remember i remember hearing mary just last year saying I'm old enough to remember Pete Sampras you know like saying it in jest but like Sampras yeah one day I don't you know I don't think Sampras is the personality type to be as bothered about being forgotten and he's more in the Stefan Edberg mold I would say but like you do get the feeling that people are already forgetting about Pete Sampras not while i'm around yeah and it goes i know we're always saying this and i know we all sort of agree on this but it goes to how important and significant the naming courts you know you know different things in different fields but in tennis specific field the naming of these significant arenas why that matters and you know we don't need to get into margaret court right now but like it matters.

1:41:15Yeah. And also that point David made about that big three generation, you know, as much as, you know, as much as the Laver Cup has, you know, lots of self-interest for Federer in it as well. I do think there is something there at the heart of it of like Federer did want to remember Rod Laver and make sure that Rod Laver wasn't forgotten and bringing Borg and McEnroe in as captains and including them in in the competition from the start, I think had good intentions from Federer in that way. And, you know, bridging the gap between the generations is important so that we don't end up with those tensions like there were between Sinner and Pietrangeli.

1:42:01So, yeah, it's kind of a lesson in there. Yeah. What a show. Thanks, Matt. Thanks, David. Thank you. Thank you, too. Absolutely loved every minute of it. Yeah, thank you to Richard and Christine and Gaia and Vincenzo. Yeah, can we do more shows that involve speaking to Christine Truman? Because she is a hoot.

1:42:28I just want to hang out with her. Yeah, loved it. Extra pumped for the French Open. Can't wait. I'll see you Matt in a cab en route to Heathrow Airport tomorrow looking forward to our ritual of you swearing out of the window at Brentford that's how you know Grand Slam is about to get underway and David will see you at Shalder Gaul can't wait tensions might be high at that point David because Matt's got a shiny new EU passport but I'm going to insist that he slums it with me I'm not, you can't swan through Matt I wouldn't do that to you Catherine I mean I think you would I'm going to make it awkward enough for you that you will choose not to yeah, see you tomorrow let's do Paris thank you as always to Robert McNichol and the Wimbledon Library and everybody that contributed to this show.

1:43:39Thank you all for being friends of the Tennis Podcast and making this and every Relived show possible. Our next Friends show will be our Roland Garros review. So we'll see you in three weeks to talk about Yannick Sinner, Roland Garros champion 2026. We can go back and edit that out, right? If something weird happens. Yeah, okay. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you soon.