BONUS: Tennis Re-Lived - Brad Parks and 50 Years of Wheelchair Tennis

38:06At the same time, the USTA took over the responsibilities of the NFWT in the USA, and that meant that the sport no longer is dependent on individual efforts and its full potential could be realised. So Brad's still heavily involved and leading the way here, but he's got structural support with him now. There are foundations laid for this not to have to be a one-man effort anymore. As the LA Times put it, making himself dispensable was ultimately Brad's greatest accomplishment. From its humble beginnings, 1998 marked the moment it had become all grown up with recognition, acceptance and sponsorship.

38:56Park said at the time, a couple of years ago, if something would have happened, I could see the organisation of the sport suffering quite a bit. It's way beyond that now. That's important. By 1998 there were 12 ,000 participants in wheelchair tennis worldwide and the national championship drew a field of 260 compared to just 80 in its first year They were probably the only 80 wheelchair tennis players in the world, said Parks This year you've got 260 but they're the people who are the best players in the world When I think about my first thoughts of what I wanted to accomplish when I started this organisation It was just to get people to play tennis, really.

39:39But this tournament is the pinnacle of that.

39:46Yeah, it's brilliant, isn't it? The steps that were taken and Brad doing all, like juggling so many things, playing it, promoting it, working the politics. Like it's an absolutely remarkable effort. And there was kind of one big significant step for wheelchair tennis still to make. You know, we brought us up to 1998 there. And that was for the sport to take place alongside non-wheelchair tennis, where it would probably be seen by more people. And it was actually the Lipton Championships in Miami, which was the first tournament to offer that during the 90s. but the the kind of moment i wanted i wanted to single out was the australian open in 2002 which paved the way for the sport to grow exponentially as we've seen over the last few years uh sophie brown wrote for the bbc about this 2002 australian open an event called the australian open wheelchair tennis championships had been running at that point for a few years in melbourne and it had a big draw 45 players in the men's singles 22 in the women's an accompanying quad competition it had ranking points it had prize money it took place at melbourne park you know this is all sounding brilliant however it lacked the proper timing because the australian open wheelchair tennis championships at the time took place after the australian open so the crowds the media the glamour really had all drained away from the event but at the end of 2001 the then tennis australia president jeff pollard announced that in in 2002 the australian open would replace that big event taking place a few weeks after the australian open and instead stage a smaller event as part of the traditional grand slam fortnight called the classic eights is this event that they came up with and jeff pollard said this new initiative gives us a chance to continue to grow the sport by showcasing the world's best so it was a far smaller event it only had eight players in the men's and women's singles but they were the best players it didn't have that much prize money it didn't have that many ranking points so in you know kind of one respect it had taken a step back from what it was but it made this big step forward by being at the same time at the Australian Open when the eyes and the attention were on it albeit at the time it only sort of garnered a brief mention in the mainstream press but it was happening during the Australian Open you know in 2002 that was the the year of Leighton Hewitt attempting to reel in a major title at home and Kim Clijster's run to the semi-finals and jennifer capriati's finer major title these events were all happening and the wheelchair tennis was happening alongside those events which was the first time that that happened at a grand slam and it kind of just just grew from there really um giant mystery was the only britain to compete at the event in 2002 and he said there was a bit of wow we're at a grand slam but to be honest it didn't feel huge because we'd already been doing exhibitions and everything else and we weren't really sure where this was actually going we played on the outside courts and it was decent from what i remember they were good and there were appreciative crowds and some people came and they said oh what's this going on i don't think they knew it was a competition i think maybe they thought it was an exhibition match or something so you know you kind of get in the picture like it's it's it's in its infancy this idea but at least the template has been set there and over the next few years the other grand slams would follow the u.s open in 2005 the french open in 2007 with their concurrent wheelchair events and then wimbledon was a little bit later it did have doubles in 2005 only men's at first then women's in 2009 and then finally in 2016 Wimbledon added singles so all of the Grand Slams then also had a quad category which is the newest division of wheelchair tennis it's a it's a mixed gender division and it's for players with impairments in both upper and lower limbs so what can we say about this well staging the wheelchair game in the same time the same space as the grand slam tournaments helped to change perceptions and integrating wheelchair tennis into the running version of tennis as mystery puts it built on not bolted on which i think was a was a really nice expression for kind of what the grand slams were doing here mystery said it's not only it being at the grand slams which gives it a sort of credibility but the exposure of being part of the event too it adds a great deal towards the inclusive nature that wheelchair tennis brings and you know we've seen that ourselves on site at the Grand Slams and this integration over the last 20 years has helped to turn the likes of Esther Vagir, Shingo Kaneda, Dida De Root, Yui Kamiji, Alfie Hewitt, Gordon Reid, Takedo Oda, you know these are these are household names now for tennis fans and it's because of everything we've just talked about brad parks the the the grind of trying to build the sport and implement a structure and ranking points and all of that that we talked about and then finally this integration with the grand slams is a massive moment and now the itf wheelchair tennis tour has more than 170 events in 50 countries worldwide.

46:16And that's what it is. It's a worldwide tennis tour now. And yeah, we can trace it from its humble beginnings 50 years ago. Very good effort with Dida de Chout, by the way. It wasn't really, though. It was decent. Okay, I tried. I just haven't got it. Solid six out of ten. early days Matt I mean I still think you can if you hang around Catherine enough let's hear shall we from Brad again talking about this this process and this journey and where wheelchair tennis is at right now I have the privilege of going to the Grand Slam tournaments myself in my job and I I cover the wheelchair events. I know some of the players.

47:11We sit there in awe of what they're doing. How do you feel when you watch them? And if I may suggest that it's because of a day when you were 18 and you had your accident and you were kind of responsible for starting it all. How do you feel when you see what this has all become? Well, I'm very, very proud. I'm very, very happy. You know, there was a guy, he was one of the most, in 1981, okay, I'm doing an exhibition and clinic at the National Wheelchair Games, 1981. And I go to the banquet and, you know, I had stopped racing track because I now was just totally devoted to wheelchair tennis and the organization and everything else.

48:08And the commissioner of the National Wheelchair Basketball Association, he was maybe one of the most influential important people in wheelchair sports in the world. And he comes to me at dinner. He goes, can I sit with you? I said, sure, Stan. Yeah. And he went on to tell me that I'm wasting my time. Now, I was a really good wheelchair racer. I won two gold medals and a silver in, in Arnhem in the Paralympics. And I just, after the Paralympics, I just quit because I, I was focused. I wanted to focus on wheelchair tennis and I loved racing track. I love the guys I competed with. I love the guys internationally that I competed with.

48:55And I love, I love pushing my chair. And I only started pushing my chair because I wanted to be better at wheelchair tennis. and then I got into track because of it so I it was really tennis which got me into racing which I ended up being really good but it also improved my tennis so um he goes I did a thesis on wheelchair sports and it was not completed not too long ago and I my thesis was um what sports are practical and can be played in a wheelchair and which one's not and I go I hate to tell you but wheelchair tennis is in the not category. You cannot play tennis in a wheelchair. And I said, well, why?

49:38He goes, because you can't move side to side. You have to be able to move side to side to play tennis. And I just sit there and I'm like, oh, and I'm thinking about this, you know, and, you know, I had respect for this guy. I mean, he's, you know, he's on the, he's one of the Paralympic. I think he was the head of the U.S. Paralympic team. I mean, you know, so, I mean, I'm 1981. So what am I, four, five years post-accident? I mean, what do I know? I'm 21 years old, you know, or something. And he's a PhD. And so I thought about it for a while. We were going back to my room later and sitting there and like, oh god it seems like i'm playing tennis i mean you know i'm questioning myself and you know i mean this is this is now we're in the second year of running this organization and he's telling me i'm wasting my time because it can't be done and i can fast forward it's 1985 we're at one of our national type tournaments um in grand rapids michigan indoor facility and you know you have this lobby with the club clubhouse and food and and pro shop and you look down over 12 tennis courts big glass you know wall thing and you look down over these tennis courts you're up a level and um and by then you know we require um those little um scorey devices on the side of the court you know the little flip things and when we require roaming umpires and i think we We had two, you know, one on each six courts.

51:20And my thing was I wanted to see people who actually had good tennis rackets and wore tennis clothes and had sport type wheelchairs. Now, in those days, a sport chair is basically an everyday chair for today. And, you know, you maybe have a little bit of camber in the wheels, but you only had one chair. You didn't have two chairs. but it was it wasn't a hospital chair with some with big old backs and push handles and all that kind of stuff it was these were aluminum lightweight chairs and i remember looking out i see 12 tennis courts and i see 24 people playing wheelchair tennis the clubhouse is full of all these guys in wheelchairs with tennis rackets and some had coaches and stuff and and i'm like going this is what i envision these are guys who are in wheelchairs that are tennis players i said you look out there and they're tennis players they're just in wheelchairs and i go this is what i envisioned i said and i thought to myself stan you were wrong okay a couple years later now we have this great relationship with the united states tennis association um and we're you know the sport is really progressing and i'm here running into him at some conference and he looks at me and he goes man i was so wrong he goes i apologize for that conversation that we had just as a as a as a final note um it's it's this it's already this incredible sport now that is played side by side shoulder to shoulder with with with the the able-bodied game what would you like 20 30 40 years from now what would you like it to look like do you still think there is there is room for growth that that you'd like to see see more i mean i think there's definitely room for growth i mean honestly what where we're at today is beyond my wildest imaginations.

53:23So it's very difficult for me to envision anything major changing. I never thought that a wheelchair company would make a chair specifically and only for tennis. Never thought that could happen. Never thought that we would have wheelchair tennis players making 100 grand winning never thought we would even be playing in the grand slam paralympics yes that was possible um maybe having exhibitions and you know or top eight players invited to the lipton or something like that well they don't have the lipton anymore but you remember that tournament absolutely that was that was kind of where we started and that was in the 90s and you know it started out with an exhibition there and then eventually we you know we had on the side courts we had the you know the top eight players and we had prize money and stuff and he kind of grew to that and but for players to be able to make a living at the sport i mean really wheelchair tennis is probably up there money wise is a lot of minor professional able-bodied sports like skiing surfing things like that um so it we're getting there i mean that to me is you know a little bit better television i mean just little improvements better television and that's what you did really all the way through wasn't it it was never sort of little improvements we've got it you know it was it was incremental it was day by day i felt very strongly that we can't go out there and just shake the boat and say you have to do this or you have to do that i would like to see the sport kind of make it on its own a little bit.

55:10I don't know if we you know, like you get to the U.S. I think Wimbledon gets a pretty good crowd for the Grand Slams to watch wheelchair tennis. U.S. Open, it kind of depends on the court and the circumstances. I would like to see it get to the point where people are actually coming because they want to see the wheelchair tennis. There's no way they can get a ticket to Arthur Ashe and to see the big guys. They maybe can watch it on the television or something, but hey, I want to see these wheelchair tennis players play and i want to see people you know come to do that a little bit more well known i mean if you go like to japan apparently shingo um is like almost like a celebrity i mean i wouldn't say anybody from the u.s is like that um on that level you know endorsements wise i mean obviously that that can be improved a little bit um you know you are seeing ads you know um like you know new york you know there were some adidas ads with you know dana matheson um and some ads with um deloitte you know the accounting company starting to use i mean so that all this kind of stuff so you know just slowly improve and you know tv you know coverage and maybe people to really want to watch it and so i think just continuing to see it improve but But I think the idea of, you know, the stars, you know, making a little more money, obviously, and getting a little more recognition.

56:44I mean, to me, that will bring, come down to the others. You know, that will bring the whole sport, make the whole sport better, I believe. And so it will come. It's just going to take time. And these guys are awesome guys. They're great role models. And they're great athletes, period. see that was a big thing for us back in the in the in the 80s and the 70s well nobody thought we were great athletes we were disabled guys who were just trying to be active you know we weren't we were inspirations and we thought we were great athletes i mean we were great athletes at the time but nobody thought we were great athletes they thought we were inspirations I think these guys now are looked at as great athletes.

57:34And that is a big step for the same. We weren't the special Olympics. We were the Paralympics. It's different. So, I mean, it's just, it's a different mentality today. And it's, but I think we still have a ways to go to improve it. Well, but thank you for your coverage of wheelchair tennis over the years and being a part of it. and you know you understand and but you can certainly see what i'm talking about when i say that it wasn't always that way oh absolutely i mean listen brad it's such such an education for me as somebody who does cover it now uh to hear its origins through your voice and that's the story we want to tell with this show we want we want more people to know about it and thanks to you I can help tell that story.

58:28So thank you so much. What a guy. And parts of that interview we played at the Wimbledon History Conference during our presentation, sort of shorter excerpts because we had less time than we do on today's show, but lots of it. And at the time that we chose this as our topic for the presentation, we didn't know where we'd be in the order of proceedings on the day. And we certainly didn't know which presentation would be following us. And it turned out that we were the penultimate presentation on the stage. And the big finale following us onto the stage was Alfie Hewitt and Gordon Reid, which could not have been more perfect.

59:17I'd love to tell you we planned that, but we absolutely did not. It was just serendipitous. And we got to listen to a good half hour, probably 45 minutes of Alfie and Gordon, who are just fantastically charismatic. I mean, they have incredible chemistry together, you know, forged over many, many years. They're obviously very, very different characters and they're really able to joke about that, aren't they? But, you know, Alfie has a real twinkle in his eye and a dry sense of humour. And I mean, just fantastic advocates for the sport if they're given the stage and the spotlight, David. They had that room in the palm of their hands.

1:00:12yeah and they're also it seems to me not afraid to rock the boat a little bit and they were making you know little friendly jibes the way of Wimbledon whilst presenting and conducting their keynote speech in one of Wimbledon's main rooms you know and they were saying it's been brilliant being on court number one and uh we'd love one day to get on the other one you know and and have an even bigger stage in the future so that they're not afraid to just they know where this sport is going and where it could still go I think is the point because you know Alfie has alongside Takedo Oda has packed out court Philippe Châtrier for the Paralympic Games and he knows that that's possible and people love coming to watch him play and know about him in this country and you know Gordon was his hero which is one of the lovely stories they were telling is that you know gordon's the older of the two and um and alfie came along as the the young the young lad with a with a union flag painted on his cheek when he was a young boy to and he was watching gordon play and and you know these days gordon can't really get near alfie on on on the singles court but you put them together as a doubles duo and they're just they're electric really and i think one of the things that i absolutely loved hearing them talk about was how they they actually they're trying to reset their goals almost now that they want to they want to start winning grand slams in a certain way and it reminds me of something Roger Federer said to me you know like 15 years ago nearly 20 years ago when he was winning everything he said I'd love one day to win Wimbledon serving volley and and Alfie and gordon were sort of saying the same thing they'd like to start winning grand slams by slightly reinventing the way you play and going to the net more and uh found it so fascinating and um and yeah you're right there they are they have true charisma and and they're a lot of fun it's great or it must be great being able to say that reminds me of of a conversation i once had with roger federer terrible name drop was that like being able to say that it's great well i mean that was that was in an interview we did i think after the 2007 wimbledon final that he that he he won against nadal uh i was one of the post-match interviews and you know you at that stage you you're genuinely searching for new things to talk about because he's won everything and he keeps he hadn't won the French but you know at Wimbledon certainly you know he'd won it so many times already and he popped up with that so yeah it is quite fun and I really enjoyed seeing everyone's reaction to Alfie and Gordon you know it really felt like people who'd gone to that history conference were so appreciative of the fact that they were kind of you know rubbing shoulders and hearing in such sort of intimate environment with two greats of of the sport and yeah they they were so interesting with their insight in terms of like how the sport is played as well uh vicky asked a technical question about the reverse backhand which which gordon answered in in great detail and alfie explained about how much harder it is to play wheelchair tennis at Wimbledon on the grass because it just takes so much more strength and power to to move the chair whereas on the other surfaces you you know you sort of slide and glide which you can't really do on the grass so like really fascinating technical insights as well as tactical and and just a sort of peek inside their mindset of what it's taken to become to become champions and Yeah, I thought they were brilliant.

1:04:19And exactly as you say, Catherine, great advocates for the sport. I've heard Alfie and Gordon speak quite a lot, but not in that sort of setting. And I'm honestly so excited about this style that David's just explained and whether they're going to be able to pull that off next year. It's going to be brilliant to find out.

1:04:46and Alfie's Alfie's still really young I know Gordon was around for a long time before Alfie came along but it feels like he's been around for ages like they've obviously achieved so much they've won 23 Grand Slam doubles titles together including the Calendar Slam in 2021 and then they finally completed the career Golden Slam in Paris last year winning gold together at the Paralympics. Hewitt, Alfie's won 10 Grand Slam singles titles. He's completed the career Grand Slam at Wimbledon in 2024, finally got over the line. They were incredible scenes, I remember. He's got two Paralympic singles, silvers.

1:05:31He lost to Gordon, I remember that, in Rio in 2016 and then lost out to Tiquito Oda in Paris in 2024 and Gordon Reid has two Grand Slam singles titles to his name, the Australian Open and Wimbledon from back in 2016. So, you know, achievement-wise, they've done so much and counting, but they've also been through so much. And I think about the period, this wasn't actually touched upon in the history conference because there was sort of so much ground to cover and so many questions that could have been asked of them. But Alfie went through that period where it looked like he was going to be prevented from continuing with his career, where he wasn't going to be eligible to be a para-athlete anymore.

1:06:26Essentially, regulations were changing and he was essentially going to be deemed not disabled enough. He, Alfie, was born with a congenital heart defect. He had surgery at six months old, suffered from something called leg calvapirthes disease, a condition that inhibits blood flow from the pelvis to the hip joint. His ability to walk was severely impaired from the age of six. And he's been a wheelchair user, sorry, he's been a wheelchair user since the age of six. He can walk Alfie, but he's not fully mobile in the conventional sense and can't do able-bodied sports. But he was in his early 20s and on this incredible trajectory at the start of what was clearly going to be an illustrious career.

1:07:22And potentially was going to have it just wrenched from him in a way that felt completely out of his control. Now, he was able to resolve it incredibly, but that must have been a period of tremendous stress and anxiety. Yeah, they were. Yeah, I know you've had the chance, David, to interview Alfie a lot. And, you know, we've we've run some of those interviews before on Grand Sam Review shows, haven't we? And I've listened to your interviews with Alfie a lot and they've always been fascinating. The one, I think it was Australia this year, we talked about how he's traveling with a Tiquito Oda dupe hitting partner, sort of training specifically for the task of trying to beat Tiquito Oda.

1:08:16I found fascinating, but I've never been more captivated by them than I was at the history conference. Like they've elevated in terms of sort of being public speakers and representatives of the sport. I think they're very impressive yeah and and and at the same time as the sport has elevated so I I feel as though you know they're they've sudden they've got more of an audience and and they're rising to it and it just goes it just it's a reminder really I think when you're surrounded at the Grand Slams and I feel like historically quite sad that it's the the all these stories that will have been missed that we won't have been able to tell and I mean I guess I'm happy now that we are telling telling them in Grand Slam to Grand Slam fashion but also now historically with Tennis Relived it it it's sort of that that's some comfort um but but I think it's it's it's a bit of a message actually to to to the media generally and all of us and and to crowds you know go and see these players go and see these matches you know talk to them and find out about them because there's there's so much rich content there you know and and um i mean i'm you know one of the one of the players as we we kind of journey through this section of the show we wanted to tell the story of a few other people that have just lit up wheelchair tennis over the years and um and set incredible records and and just just taking it on again from brad parks and one of those is uh shingo canada um and he he had a tumor in his spinal cord which was found when he was nine years old he was paralyzed in the lower half of his body he won 28 major singles titles 50 overall when you factor in doubles as well um he won three paralympic singles golds and a paralympic doubles gold i mean and for much of the time he played wimbledon didn't have a wheelchair singles competition so goodness only knows how many would have ended up with had had that being the case i mean he did win it in 2022 when it was when it was up and running um and i mean he has at least eight singles titles at the other slams so it's just an astonishing number of grand slam titles he went undefeated for three years and 106 matches between 20 2007 and 2010 and known for his speed and his movement and taking lots of shots after just one bounce which again is an interesting talking point really.

1:11:11I hear people talk about whether they should change it to one bounce and whether it should stay at two and how the way you approach the sport might impact how your opponent plays it, which is really fascinating. I suspect if Alfie and Gordon are able to make a good fist of this new style of play, then switching to a one-bounce format would be very good news for them. Watching the highlights of the US Open final between Tiquito Oda and Gustavo Fernandez, I mean, watching Tiquito Oda basically sabering his opponent, you know, just sort of charging the net on half-volley in the returns. I mean, I certainly think it's in his playbook.

1:12:04I mean, look, there are so many people we could have picked out. And one of them we're also going to mention is Dylan Alcott, who is such a superstar in Australia. I mean, he's now on the main coverage of Channel 9 a lot. And I mean, he's just a huge star. I think he's a household name in Australia, really. Yeah, just an incredible character. When he was playing his matches, I mean, he's retired now, but when he was playing his matches, and we covered the latter part of his career, he would pat the place out. Everybody knows who Dylan Alcott is. And, I mean, he played in the quad division, which Matt was mentioning earlier, the quad division, as well as having the lower part of the body affected, also involves substantial loss of function in one or both.

1:13:02upper extremities the the um the LTA's website um points out that that you know players often tape the racket to their hand in that division um and uh and and Dylan Alcott well I mean he was born with a tumor wrapped around his spinal cord which was which was operated on during the first weeks of his life um the tumor was successfully cut out but it left him requiring a wheelchair and he went for tennis. Thank goodness. Thankfully, he chose tennis. I mean, he actually had a successful career in wheelchair basketball before going back to tennis. And in 2019, Dylan Alcott, he won all four major titles in quad doubles.

1:13:48In 2021, he won the Golden Slam in quad singles. And in 2022, he was named Australian of the Year. Actually, just a quick note on the quad division generally as well in Britain. Britain has a player named Andy Lapthorne who's won multiple Grand Sam titles. And a quick word as well for Peter Norfolk, who was affectionately nicknamed the Quadfather. And he won the UK's first, or Great Britain's first, Paralympic wheelchair tennis gold medal in Athens in 2004. Went on to win multiple of them, but a real legend. The quarterfowler is a good nickname. I think Hannah would approve of that. I don't usually like a pun, but I approve that.

1:14:44That's a good one. That's a good one. Yeah, it's good. Matt, seeing as you say her name so well, tell us about Dida de Rhoot. yeah and she's going to be the one of the big stories next year isn't she as she as she comes back um from this injury that she's had and tries to take over the sport once again you know in in a way that she's done in such dominant fashion over the last few years um her story is that she was born with unequal leg length which meant that she had to use a wheelchair and she's won 23 major singles titles 19 in doubles she's won paralympic gold in singles and doubles and it was the period from february 2021 to may 2024 which was kind of the most outstanding part of her career when she went on 145 match winning streak and in 2021 she won all four grand slams she won the paralympics and she won the year-end championships the most important events she won them all if that wasn't enough she did the calendar grand slam again in 2022 and the third time in 2023 she won three calendar slams in a row she is the 12 in a row player that david was actually talking about um and i knew somebody could do it and and that's on top of having previously won the calendar grand slam in doubles in 2019 with Anik Van Coot.

1:16:34So, yeah, just another remarkable player of the last couple of decades. Okay, well, if we... I hate to one-up you, but if we're doing career slams here... If we're doing winning streaks. Yeah, if we're going down the streak route, I give you Esther Vagia, a player that I spoke to in, would it have been 2020, David? Was it at the very end of 2020? 2021. It was pandemic-y, is what I remember. I also remember, I mean, it'll surprise no one that she was an incredible person to speak to. And we're going to hear an excerpt from that interview. and we'll also link to the full episode in our show notes if it's of interest because obviously it was a long time.

1:17:32A lot of you may not have heard it or would like to refresh your memories. I would be quite interested to listen to it again sort of in the light of what I now know about wheelchair tennis because my God, Esther Vagir, like what a career. So it all started for her. She had health complications as a child And then it was discovered that she had vascular myelopathy around her spinal cord and an operation left her paralyzed. During rehab, she learned to play wheelchair sports, not just tennis. She played wheelchair basketball with the Dutch team and won the European championships in that sport in 1997.

1:18:20In tennis, she won 44 major titles, 21 in singles, 23 in doubles and seven Paralympic golds, four in singles, three in doubles. Vigier holds the record for most tour level wheelchair doubles titles at 136 and singles titles at 169. Now then folks, if that all sounds good, hold on to your hats. Esther Vergeer spent a total of 668 weeks as world number one. She first reached the top ranking on 6th April 1999 and held on to the spot without interruption from 2nd October 2000 to 21st January 2013. That is more than 12 years. 12 years. That's like longer than some people's careers. A lot of people's careers.

1:19:23She won 14 straight end of year championships from 1998 to 2011. From the 31st of March 2001 until her retirement in 2013. And in a crowded field, this is probably the most extraordinary start. Matt, Vigier lost only one singles match. That was on the 30th of January 2003 at the Sydney International to Daniela Di Toro from Australia. Daniela Di Toro was the answer to a question on the most niche quiz in the world. Even nichier than our end of year quiz, Matt. she won 559 of her last 560 matches I'm going to say that again she won 559 of her last 560 matches she ended her career on a winning streak of 470 matches that spanned 120 tournaments and 73 different opponents only one professional athlete in sporting sporting history is known to have a longer winning streak than Vagir.

1:20:38And that is Pakistani squash player Jahangir Khan, who won 555 consecutive matches between 1981 and 1986. Different sport, but we could do a relived on him. I bet he's interesting. Name from my childhood, Catherine. Yes, my dad knew this name very well. My dad loves his squash. The closest Vigia came to losing during the streak was at the 2008 Paralympics when she faced a match point in the gold medal match. Such was her dominance. During the final 10 years of her career, she won 95 matches by a scoreline of 6-love, 6-love. Eat that, Igor Sviontek. And between August 2004 and October 2006, she even won 250 consecutive sets, only one of which ended in a tie break.

1:21:42Let's hear from the woman herself. This is Esther Vagir speaking to me back in 2021. Do you have achievements that you think about more than others or are most proud of, moments or titles? Well, there's this moment that I always mention, and it's because it was such a, it's the Paralympic final of Beijing 2008. And I was playing Corrie Homan. She's also Dutch. And we, we had this, well, a fight for many, many years, but she had never won. she'd never beat me and in that final she was match point she had match point on me and so this situation was stressful and unknown to me and and of course I told myself that I you know wanted to make or win this gold medal there I didn't want to lose to Corey in the Paralympic Games so that was very i don't know tight situation and and and stressful not only to me but also to cory of course um because now she was just one point away of beating me and beating me at the most important maybe moment in her career um and then eventually i could turn this match point around and and turn the match towards a win for myself um winning this gold medal so i guess Yeah, that moment is just standing out because it was such an important moment, because it was so stressful.

1:23:21And of course, that it turned around in a positive way for me. I will never forget that moment. So that match was sort of right in the middle of your extraordinary 470 match winning streak. Yeah. Do you think kind of what came after it could have been different if that winning streak had been snapped at that moment? yeah i guess it's it could i think it could yeah a lot of times i was thinking or told myself what if i lose now and take that pressure off my shoulder uh would i perform different or would i feel different or um and i get the answer could be yes that that i wouldn't feel as much pressure and maybe I would have played more freely or wouldn't worry so much about losing because I had those moments that I was just more worried about losing than I was focusing on winning.

1:24:22And there were times that I didn't like that and I didn't enjoy playing tennis anymore because of that because it's not fun if you're just worried and worried all the time. So, yes, I think it would have been different I don't know if the results would have been different. That I don't know. But maybe the feeling would have been different for me when playing. That's fascinating. I'm so fascinated by the winning streak because, I mean, it's just so rare. I think it's the second longest in all known sport. Yeah. I think there's one squash player who has more winning streak. It's just extraordinary.

1:25:06So it's kind of something that not many people can understand or empathize with. Did it feel lonely at all being in that position?

1:25:21No, lonely is the wrong word. um sometimes i felt that people were more paying more attention to the streak than the actual uh win that i had on that moment i don't know if that makes sense but for me the winning streak was not the goal that i had um so for me it was you know tournament by tournament or I was aiming for the Grand Slams or, you know, those Paralympic medals, what counted for me and not the streak itself. And so when I retired on the 470s, people were asking me, oh, why don't you go for the 500 or for the 550? Because they were like, well, yeah, that must be your aim. But I was not, yeah, that was not my main goal.

1:26:13So, yeah, I guess the streak is just something that came with my sporting career, but it's not a goal itself. Do you remember when you first sort of started to be really aware of it? Maybe when you first started to be asked about it all the time, when it became a big feature of your career? Yeah, I think, but I'm not too sure when that was. But I think it was around or maybe at the time that I was at this 250 streak or something. I don't even know what year that was. Yeah, and some countries or some journalists were more into it than others. And for example, in America, they're all about statistics and numbers.

1:26:55And so whenever I played in America, there were more talks about it than wherever in the world. So sometimes I was just not busy with it at all. And in some tournaments, I was confronted with it all the time. Did you ever feel invincible? No, never. No, no, because I was just, no, I realized that any moment, any time, there could be a moment that I would have a bad day or somebody would have a really good day or my preparation were not good enough or the conditions were different than I expected. So at any time, something could happen. And I guess that was the time in 2003, I lost first round to Daniela Toro in Australia.

1:27:45And I was so mad at myself that I just did not do the preparations well enough that I was not prepared for the wind, not prepared for the temperature in Australia, not prepared. So I was just not, didn't do my preparation well. And I, and that was for me a moment that I was so mad at myself that I made the decision not to, uh, be, you know, bad prepared, um, at any time anymore. So I always had to be well prepared. And, um, yeah, that's when I started to win. Was the streak a factor in your retirement decision? Were you wanting to retire with the streak preserved? um no because otherwise i'd probably retired earlier or sooner um in you know earlier year um so no that was not that was not um no a consideration that i wanted to end the career not losing no i knew that the the risk of losing uh of course was there every single time and would maybe become a bigger risk than and than at that moment because i was becoming older and players were becoming better um but the main reason why i retired was that i just couldn't find the motivation anymore to be away from home so much that I realized that at my 31st, I was needing to prepare for a social career or, you know, a career after my tennis career, and that I could use my tennis or my status or my performance at that moment to maybe, you know get work in sports where I would love to work and so all those things together I guess were the reasons why I retired in 2013.

1:30:01Did it feel completely right? Was it one of those sort of you know when the time is right or were there bits of you that wondered oh maybe I could play on maybe I could extend the streak maybe I could get to 500? Yeah it was I wasn't sure about anything anymore because I wasn't sure whether I wanted to continue because I didn't have the motivation but I also also wasn't sure about what what would come or how the world after tennis would look like or or what I would do or who who I would be without a record um so everything was in in insecure or insure um i just i yeah i yeah and for a couple of years that was the feeling that i have and i never regret uh the fact that i retired i never regret the fact that i um ended my career at the at the at the moment that i did um but i had a lot of questions a lot of years um like who i was and what i wanted to do and am i good enough um and sometimes i was you know lonely in my bed uh thinking about maybe you know making a comeback uh because sometimes it's just very comfortable to go back to a world that you have so much confidence um and the lack of confidence i had in this other world or the the normal world didn't feel um nice didn't feel nice um but like an official comeback i never made um it was just a you know a thought that i had in the middle of the night and then i woke up the next morning and i was like nah no this is not this this wouldn't be right uh i just had to put through this uncomfortable feeling and i just have to gain confidence um with all the things that i'm gonna to do and it that just takes time i i spoke to other athletes that retired and they all have the same feeling um it's just a different world and you have to get used to it and so it's not a crazy or it's not weird that you that you feel a little bit lost um you just have to have to give yourself the time to get used to it i read that during the final 10 years of career your career you won 95 matches without losing a game did you did you enjoy those kind of wins that kind of dominance or would you have preferred a narrow competitive hard fought win uh i would have preferred a little bit more competition yeah because that is what you want to have as an athlete you want to compete you want to fight and you want to play your best to um to show yourself that all the effort that you put in is is worth it and that you need it um to uh to win that one match so yeah i would have preferred a little bit more competition yeah there was i remember there was it was quite a lot of people us in the media during those years of your career that speculated about whether whether your dominance was bad for the game did did that bother you uh no it didn't bother me at all because I had those same questions and how nice it would have been if there would be more competition.

1:33:23But then also the fact that it's not my fault. It's not something that I have influence on. So it didn't bother me because I completely understood why those questions were raised. Only I didn't have the answer. And above that all, it wasn't my fault. But I guess that's for Paralympic sports in general. I mean, yeah, there's just not as much Paralympic athletes or disabled athletes as there are able-bodied athletes. So it's a very logical result of how the world is. And that's just a fact that I think we have to learn to live with. Learn to live with or learn to change? uh well i guess we all i would like to that that we work hard to get more people with disabilities into sport because that would be good um and to make the competitions in in all different sports as as competitive as um uh how do you say as professional as possible um and so we have to work hard for that and and um we as athletes we as organizations we as international paralympic committee um we as able-bodied uh federations so to yeah to develop um disability sports as a whole god she was cool yeah that comes across i'd forgotten just how cool i'd forgotten like how um how direct I felt like I could be with her, you know.

1:35:15No, I really, really, I listened to the whole interview yesterday when we were looking for the part to play. I mean, I could have chosen so much of it. And I did love that directness because the streak is such that you are left with lots of questions about it. And I think having covered the sport through the period of her dominance without taking anywhere near enough notice of it. It does make me think, well, I mean, I think the sport was a lot less mature at that point anyway. It's become more of a thing to pay attention to wheelchair tennis, thankfully. I think Esther Vigiri is a big reason for that because she's put these incredible records on the map.

1:35:58And yet at the time of it, you think, oh man, I wish I could have been around for that. I wish we could go back in time and watch. But then you're talking about, what was it, 90 odd sets? that was matches that were six love six love actually when you watch that as sport even she wishes it was more competitive and and it's it's it's that impossible situation of of she just wants to win and she wants to dominate and because that's what you're supposed to want to do and you want to witness this greatness and yet if it's so one-sided it's not fun um and i think You asking such direct questions and getting her thinking and her complete lack of being offended in any way, just being such a grown-up about it all, makes for a really fascinating listen.

1:36:49I really do urge you to go and listen to the whole thing. Gosh, it makes me realise how much, you know, as much as we really try and be direct and punchy whilst also, you know, whilst also being sensitive and human. And, you know, we go into interviews and press conferences trying to be punchy. But listening to that makes me realise how much you walk on eggshells around top tennis players. Now, you know, you've got you you're sweating and your heart's pounding, you know, before you ask the world number five, a pretty middle of the road question in a press conference, just because, you know, the risk that they could take.

1:37:34You know, I saw Ben Shelton's, sorry to throw him under the bus, I could have used any example, but I saw Ben Shelton's vlog the other day and poor old Charlie Eccleshare and his exchange with him at the US Open is in there. Like, him just being a dick in response to a completely legitimate question. Like, ugh. Be more like Esther Vagir. Be more like Esther Vagir, exactly Yeah Yeah, almost enough to make me miss the pandemic But not quite Matt, what a show you've put together there Not just a show, but a Wimbledon History Conference presentation As well A fantastic, twin-headed effort And I've enjoyed it so much and it will, I really plan for it to feed into my tennis year in 2026.

1:38:38So thank you. Oh, well, a great team effort, I think, on this one especially. And yeah, honestly, I do find Tennis Relived has that effect on me. Like I go to the French Open and I think about Suzanne Longlin and I think about Gottfried von Kramm, you know, like I genuinely do. I'm not just saying that. tennis relived always has an impact so um i think it's long overdue that we did this show uh and yeah i i really really am gonna watch more wheelchair tennis in in 2026 like like i realized the other day i haven't seen taquito oda play live myself and that's an absolute must you know i've gotta gotta correct that and fully intend to at the australian open yep same I think we're all on the same page with that loved it have loved Tennis Relived in 2025 I'm very excited about our plans for 2026 so thank you all for being friends of the Tennis Podcast and for making it all possible we will link to that Esther Vagir interview episode in full in our show notes we will be back with our next regular a show on Sunday and you know the tennis world just keeps giving with its news there is no shortage of stuff to talk about so that'll be Sunday and then we'll be back the following Sunday with our preview of the 2026 season and our review of the Battle of the Sexes that'll be me Matt Roberts and Charlie Eccleshare because David will be swanning around Austria yep look forward to listening Great planning from David to be away.

1:40:25Great. Yeah, really annoying. Why didn't I go on holiday? Wondery's got the rights over there. During the battle of the sexes. Oh, I'm not going to find out. Yeah, I won't be using the VPN that day.

1:40:44David, enjoy your holiday. Happy holidays to everybody listening. We'll say that again in Sunday's show, which I hope you're listening to. but enjoy the festive period however you are thank you for listening today thank you for being friends at the tennis podcast enjoy hopefully getting into wheelchair tennis in 2026 if you aren't already happy holidays speak to you soon