BONUS - Tennis Re-Lived: Pam Shriver

34:29And because it is a lifetime sport, like the through line of tennis in these relationships is unbelievable. And of course it changes after you stop trying to beat each other on the tennis court. But one of the things I love about, you know, my rivalry with Chrissy didn't get interesting until the end where I finally beat her like a handful of times. And but she beat me 18 straight times at the beginning. So I can relate to all those players like Monfils or these players that went 0 for 17 or 0 for 18 or whatever against the big three. and then Martina I beat her three times early including two U.S.

35:06Open 78 and then also in 82 and then I ended up losing to her like 33 straight times like I only beat her once when we started to play doubles together which was in Sydney one year on grass and nobody has ever lost more consecutive times to a player than what I did with Martina, but it was worthwhile because at least I could share the doubles court with her. So going into this US Open, Pam, in 1978, you're 16 years old. You've had this little run at Wimbledon. What were your expectations? What were your hopes? What did you think in a best case scenario might have been possible? Well, it was interesting because of a couple of injuries.

35:54And during 78, if you did reasonably at a handful of tournaments, you could shoot up the ranking. So I was already around the 20 mark in the rankings. But a couple of injuries occurred to players ranked ahead of me. And I actually snagged the last seed, the 16th seed. They only had 16 in that year. The year before, they'd had 12. and the 12th seed the year before was wendy the rabbit turnbull who actually got through all the way to the finals losing to chris everett on the last finals at forest hills and it was on clay and wendy turnbull and i are riding out on the seven train prior to the tournament for a practice session together and we i was asking her questions about her u.s open in 77 and she goes well i was the last seed and got to the finals and I interrupted her as I often interrupt.

36:49I said, ah, I'm the last seed at this U S open. I wonder if I can get to the finals. So like I manifested it on the subway. Um, and I ended up having a great draw. Um, you know, Virginia Wade was in my section. I think I was supposed to play her in the round of 16. She got upset to Lili Farood, I believe. And then Leslie Hunt beat Lili Farood. So I played Leslie Hunt from Australia, decent player, but she was injured. So my quarterfinal was like, you know, so my draw opened up, but then of course I'm playing Martine in the semis, which seemed kind of a tough one. Well, let's go through your, your good draw.

37:32These are the Jasmine Paolini's of their day. You want me to see if I can remember without looking? Oh, yes. That's a fun game. A fun game. Yeah, let's do that. Round one. Okay, Sharon Walsh. And I want best guesses of the score as well, please, Pam. Oh, my gosh. Sharon Walsh, straight sets. No. Candy Reynolds. No. Other way round. Candy Reynolds. Candy Reynolds. Okay, Candy Reynolds, then Sharon Walsh. Correct. I believe both in straight sets. There may have been a tie break. Perfect. Yeah, 1-1 over Candy. Yeah. Big, good draw energy there. And then 6-3, 7-6 over Sharon Walsh. Okay, then Jeannie Everett, Chrissy's younger sister.

38:17And this was my first match on Louis Armstrong. I beat her, I recall, 3-2 pretty comfortably. 6-2, 7-5. Oh, second set. Good for Jeannie. The late. she she's a big part of Chrissy's story isn't I mean sisters are but Chris Everett's cancer journey anyway God love and God rest Jeannie Everett Dubin okay then in the round is 16 Carrie Melville Reed which was a great matchup for me one of the original nines she was a top 10 player for a long time a really good doubles player but she did not have a good backhand her forehand was really strong and so all I did was approach every single and she had a terrible second serve so i just crushed and rushed crushed and rushed the second serve made her try and pass me on the backhand side she couldn't i beat her i believe in straight sets then i had leslie hunt who had you know and then leslie was worn out i beat her from my recollection like two and one pretty comfortably two and love pam two and love pam I'm too in love.

39:26Just on the crushed and rushed terminology, Pam, I mean, you weren't exaggerating when you said you hit three topspin shots in your 19-year career, were you? Because, I mean, that was the thing that really struck me about watching the highlights of the final, which is a good, you know, it's a good 35 minutes insight into your game back then. And what's great is that a lot of the camera angles are low down. They're showing you sort of head height to you. And we can see what your ball flight is doing. And you are chipping everything. I mean, it's not just chipping. You're slicing. You're really knifing through the backhand and coming in.

40:04You're punching off volleys. But every forehand is a chip forehand. I mean, you just don't play topspin shots at all, do you? No, no. I tried to develop it late in my career, but it was a joke when I tried to hit topspin. But, you know, the forehand was my barometer. Like if my forehand was working well and I hit it, I actually hit like a bit of side spin as well. Like it was flat side spin. And when I was hitting that one well, oh my goodness. It's almost the same thing. Like people prefer to try and hit passing shots off balls that come up a little bit higher than a low slice. So it was actually from my era and given my size and, you know, my serve was the best part of my game, it was the right way for me to play.

40:47But then as the power game came on, I really struggled with my game without any topspin. I struggled to control the bigger, powerful balls that were coming to me. So I didn't really adjust well during my 19 years to how to handle that. There's a good article I found from World Tennis Magazine all about your run to the final of the US Open in 1978 written by Susan Adams. and Susan kind of describes your game. She says, At Flushing Meadows, Shriver launched herself into the net behind a towering serve that bit deep and wide in the corner of the deuce court and down the centre of the ad court. She pounced on high, weak returns like some giant cat taking the first volley closer to the net than any player in the tournament and she pounded them away deep and hard.

41:41Her overhead was solid. her only vulnerability seemed in changing gears and moving backwards for a lob that she hadn't anticipated oh she suzy adams was a friend of mine we actually co-wrote a book together uh and another example of like i was so friendly with um people in the media room i remember ted tingling a hall of famer and the designer one time uh looked at me and said you know because he watched so much tenor's a student again he said miss schreiber you have the best overhead of any woman I've ever seen so it was like a shot I hardly ever missed I worked on it a ton and it and it was a necessary shot back in that day I would get tried people would try to push me off the net so very prideful of my overhead you gotta help me that can be the next thing we work on That victory over Leslie Hunt, Pam, described here by Susie in that article, Pam romped through Leslie Hunt into the quarters to become the youngest woman ever to reach the semifinals.

42:50Pam told us, and I think this is a quote from after that victory to reach the semifinals. Pam told us, I don't feel that young. I just think of myself as someone going for number one eventually. I think I have the drive. I don't think anyone needs to push me. That's probably pretty apropos of what I felt at the time. Obviously, we didn't know that this U.S. Open run to the finals where, you know, I wouldn't win it, that it would be my only major singles final. And that's why it was it's kind of exceptional that it happened at all. I mean but everybody including myself thought that I would be back in a major final and win them and I remember Martina telling me that Chrissy telling me that but that's why I always have this great reflection of like no you do never know I mean Emma Raducanu may never get to back to a semi-final of a major people who've won one major been to one final no there's no guarantee even if they do it when they're young because that's what I lived and and I'm just wondering Pam as you're making your way through this draw like how much attention is there on you how much of a really big deal does it feel because I noted that your your match against Jeannie ever actually meant that Chrissy played her match that day on the grandstand and it was your match that got Armstrong scheduling apparently you said afterwards i'm kind of a big shot now um and like so like me so did it feel you know did it feel big yeah by the time i looked at the draw that was painted on a big wall outside our locker rooms uh where we would walk through the crowd to um Louis Armstrong when I walked back and saw um there's only four left um yeah and it was 100 I think that was the first US Open 128 draw 16 seeds that's when it started to hit me wow um you know one thing going into the Martina match I remember really helped me is I had played her before in my rookie year and it was not my first time out there so at this point Pam going into the semi-finals are you thinking you can win the thing or are you not because of because of who's because of who is part of the the other three obviously Martina in the semis and the likely prospect of Chrissie in the final you know I actually by that time I remember my serve volley game I felt actually really confident so I kind of went in with a pretty good mindset that if I can have that hold serve mentality, which is something I've talked about a lot when I was coaching Donna.

45:44And you know how important it is in those big matches. When I held my first few service games and I could tell I was having a good day on serve, I really felt it was possible to pull off that upset. And I also could tell Martina was pretty emotional at that time. She hadn't yet gone into the peak discipline Martina mindset mode. And I could tell that Martina was uneasy. She had just moved into the number one ranking. She had won her first major at Wimbledon. She was the favorite in the match by a long shot. So between those two things, my serve felt great. I was pretty comfortable in this big, big match.

46:23And I knew on the other side of the net, there was unease. It's two tiebreak sets. but I mean talk about a scoreline that doesn't doesn't tell the story of the match I mean Martina had multiple set points in the opening set two two rain delays in there talk us through your recollection of the match and and the drama and those those range I think quite short rain delays but sometimes I think short rain delays must be the hardest ones sort of where you're poised to go back on at any minute. Yeah. I remember not going back to the locker room, which was not in the building. We had to walk to a separate building to get to the locker room.

47:04And, um, I remember just, uh, misty rain. I, I, I watched the court a lot. I didn't go inside too much. I just kind of, cause it wasn't pouring down rain. And, um, yeah, I think the rain delays for me, I, as it turns out, I handled those better as well. And, you know, I remember spending time with my then coach who I know, you know, Don Candy, who I've shared a lot about our story with you all. But at that point, he was incredibly helpful to me to keep me in the moment, reflecting on how I'm going to go back out there. And it really helped that I had my coach to talk to. Yeah. So you saved set points twice at 5-4 in the first set, twice at 6-5.

47:48And every time with a winner uh there was a there was a forehand pass reverse cross court a slashing backhand volley a lunging forehand volley down the line and then a and then an ace and then i think you converted your first set points and again susie adams saying the difference between you was you played the big points better in this match against against martina does that does that feel right to you Is that your recollection as well? Like in those crunch moments, like this was an occasion where you just brought it? Yeah, I think I can look back now and say I was in a little bit of the zone there.

48:32First off, I probably hit two passing shot forehands my entire career in big moments. And that was one of them. And, you know, it sounded like Martina didn't do a whole lot wrong. I didn't prior to you reading that, Matt, I didn't really reflect on set points from the first set. but you know it does obviously it does and anytime you win a match six and six pretty much you can say that the person who won six and six won the biggest points um but yeah i think it was really high quality from me given the fact by far it was the biggest match of my career and something that the rest of my you know it's 16 years and two months what did i have to really prepare me for this around a 32 at Wimbledon no this was all uncharted territory well one of the things Pam that that I've I've often said to Catherine and Matt based on you know being maybe having seen a couple of generations of sports people that they haven't is is the number of absolute superstars who were at their best when they first started when they were 16 and in football I think of Michael Owen and Wayne Rooney and I think that they they lost something as they got older a lot of it was physical a lot of it was sort of injury based and so forth I just wonder when I when I hear some of the the the way you were approaching these these matches and the way you were taking it to Martina and you know there's there are paragraphs talking about the rapid fire nature of your volley exchanges and so forth and I know you were tall and I know you had a big game but do you think that maybe the age you were and how new to it you were made you even more aggressive and more daring I suppose yeah I was the I was the underdog I wasn't you know especially from the round of 16 on I wasn't supposed to be there and I felt I remember feeling excitement to play Martina but I felt nothing that we would consider pressure I mean it was so unequal where the pressure fell.

50:30It was on Martina, number one, it just won Wimbledon, was trying to win her first US Open. And it was like the perfect storm for the upset as I reflect back. Yeah. And it was, I think for her to be uneasy and then to have it interrupted twice, you can see like it was all teed up for advantage Shriver to pull off the upset. Did you feel the same dynamic going into the final with Chrissy? The pressure's all on her. I can be fearless and daring and lean into the underdog or does a final just make things different? Yes. The final felt super different. A real quirk about our final was we mentioned the rain.

51:12Martina and I had the first semi. Wendy the rabbit Turnbull defended at least semi-final points from her final performance the year before, she lost to Chrissy, but because of the rain, that semi wasn't finished till the Saturday where we were supposed to play the final on Saturday. So it ended up being I had an extra day off, which, you know, take it whether or not that was a good thing. But another thing I want to mention is Betsy Nagelson and I got to the doubles semifinal and we had match points. After I'd beaten Martina to get to the final, I actually had match points to get to both finals.

51:51And we lost to, I'm going to mention her name again, Wendy the Rabbit Turnbull and Carrie Reed got some revenge from me beating her singles. But I think playing in the doubles kind of helped me not get too down the rabbit hole of being in the finals of the singles. But then I had that all day Saturday when the men's semis were played, because that was Super Saturday. It was before Super Saturday was called Super Saturday. And then it ends up being Shriver and Everett scheduled first. I remember at 4 p.m., which is really late for me to wait for this big a match at 16. And then afterwards, the men's final was a couple of guys by the name of Bjorn Borg and Jimmy Connors.

52:33So Shriver, Everett, Connors, Borg almost like made me throw up. Do you remember what you with that Saturday, that extra Saturday? I mean, we presume you're waiting to find out who your opponent's going to be. So that element of uncertainty, you were thinking, right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I didn't, I don't, I did not go out to watch my reflection is I didn't go out to watch that, um, semifinal. I may have, but I don't remember it. What I do remember, the only activity for sure I remember is I was staying in a hotel at Central Park South. And I remember they have like this big art exhibit outside on the sidewalk on central park south and i can remember part of the time i was just passing time looking at art um in in the middle of man manhattan um and i do remember thinking this four o 'clock final is never going to come around it was just like felt forever were you getting stopped in the street yes by then i was getting stopped some i mean the national inquire one yeah one of our big tabloids didn't start coming to me directly until after the final but yes the attention totally turned and did you like that was there a novelty to it that was fun you know I've always been okay with some attention I could like handle it okay I I felt like I was just just comfortable enough with it it didn't overwhelm me like I didn't feel tons and tons of anxiety.

54:04The toughest thing going into the final was unlike I had played Martina before the semi. I had never played Chrissy in singles. I had remembered playing her in doubles, actually losing seven, six in the third in the tournament that's now in Charleston, South Carolina. But I hadn't played her in singles and it made me so anxious when I thought about how many times Chrissy won matches easily. And then my biggest thought going into the final was I hoped it was competitive, which isn't it, which is not the right mindset, right? We know you have to go into a match believing you can win. That strikes me as a, as a perfect example of like, when we talk about players having a bit of an aura, like you hadn't played the real thing.

54:50So in your head, you're kind of playing her aura being like, well, she's won this thing before I need to make it competitive. Like that surely there, that is you like playing. Yeah. The aura of Chrissy ever in the, in the days leading up to the final, that, that, that, that's a really interesting articulation of how that can play out. I think. And when you think about the last like 27 years in tennis, starting with say when Federer started to dominate, we've seen a lot of players with auras. Yes. Chrissy had the aura, especially at that U S open where against me, she was going for her fourth consecutive US Open.

55:30Yeah, it is just from this article, the sort of difference in tone between the quotes ahead of the Martina match to ahead of the Chrissie match are quite stark. You know, we read out those, the quotes from before the Martina match where you're clearly like feeling yourself. Whereas the quotes ahead of this one are, I've never played this well three days in a row. I've never played this well one day in a row. It says Pam's only fear was that she wouldn't get blown off court. Yeah. Which is exactly what you've just said. And yet it was a very competitive final. Sorry, Matt. I was going to say, like, I suppose, given the sort of nature of Chris Everett's game as well, like getting blown off, like she wasn't probably going to overpower you.

56:18but it would have been like a sort of kind of like almost like a slow torturous defeat i suppose if you got blown off like just with her relentlessness is that is that kind of what you were fearing like in your worst case scenario well obviously chrissy had great precision she had an unbelievable lob She had certain tonics to my serve and volley assault. And her passing shots, particularly on the backhand side, and one of the tactical errors I made was I approached too many times to the two-handed backhand. I needed to test her forehand out more, but my natural best approach was the one that drove Carrie Reed nuts with her one-handed backhand and not the Chris Everett.

57:06The two-handed backhand, honestly, Chrissy was the one in the women's game when she started a few years earlier, the two-handed backhand wasn't that big a deal. You could really dominate by good, deep approaches for a right-hander on the backhand side because there are more one-handed backhands. But Chrissie would make like three unforced errors a set. So when you want a point against Chrissie, my God, you earned it. You would get very few free points. There's some players now that if you get somebody who properly attacks them at the net, you can slightly see them panic because they're being crowded and they're not used to being crowded like that.

57:45One thing that struck me is, I'm looking at Chrissie, she knows you're coming in, right? She just sort of accepts it and then deals with it. It's that mentality, the lack of fluster, of her being flustered at all by you, six foot tall, standing on the baseline. She's hitting a second serve that's not particularly hard and you are just on it and coming in. And she's just serene, really, in the way that she handles it, isn't it? It's amazing. Yeah, and who knew? That was the first of 18 consecutive losses to Chrissie. But, yeah, she just kind of could pick me apart. But, listen, you know, I reflected upon, you know, when Anna Samova early on in the Wimbledon final wasn't able to win an early game, and you could sort of see how tight she was and the rallies weren't long.

58:42I did do a lot of reflecting about that early first couple of service games for me, and that final was massive. And the fact that I was able to hold helped me settle. And it ended up being, you know, we've talked about how straight set, two out of three, tight two sets can often be a really good final, like the Bagula final last year against Sapolenka and other ones. And this was one of those finals where both sets were tight. I came up short. I was able to break her my recollection once, but she was just too good and my approach shots needed to be a little different pattern. But it felt like there was jeopardy to me.

59:18You know, when I'm watching it back towards the end of the sets, you're actually putting scoreboard pressure on her. I think if she's not the great champion that she is, a lot of players are buckling under that because you know there are sort of four all games there are ones where you've got game point again and and she might have edged you in the end but it was it was really striking how you're not playing like a novice or a sort of newcomer to this scene you're you're you're you're playing really clever tennis to sort of put pressure on her I mean it was you must have a lot of pride from that.

59:56I would have thought. And it was, look, it was the only tennis I knew how to play. I mean, I, at that point I didn't really have a much of a plan B I could stay at the back of the court and do my, you know, chips and just hang in there and wait. But, um, yeah. So if, if my a game was on, it was a pain. Um, but again, Chrissy just had the calmness. She was able to just have that clarity. Okay. Am I going backhand line, backhand cross? Oh, she's a little too tight to the net let's put this perfectly placed lob within two feet of the line so uh yeah she was she ended up being really tough for me to beat it took me almost 10 years and and there was kind of a sort of playful moment from you in the final where you're on the receiving end of one of those Chrissy Everett perfect precision rallies where she's she's running you all over the court and like you ended up falling on your back and sort of lying down and then getting up but you You got this big reaction from the crowd.

1:00:55The crowd loved you. Well, it's funny because Chrissy kind of remembered that and reflected on it. I don't think she had played a U.S. Open match where, wow, the crowd's really more cheering for the other player. But yeah, the underdog role and I think my personality, my style of play, just my whole story. I played with the Prince racket, the oversized racket, which had just been invented a couple of years early. that was another sort of interesting thing about my rookie years. I was playing with an oversized racket as an amateur, couldn't earn the prize money. It was just, it was, it was kind of crazy, but yeah, the crowd, crowd liked me.

1:01:34We're going to hear from Chrissy in a moment and Martina. Just before we do, do you remember sort of the immediate aftermath of that final? Maybe even, you know, in the, in the trophy ceremony where you're, the losing player is made to stand there on the court next to the player holding the trophy, which I increasingly think is one of the most extraordinary things about tennis. Do you remember thinking, OK, I'm gutted, I wanted this desperately, but I'm 16, like, I'll be back here, I'll for sure win one of these? Or do you remember not feeling that way necessarily and not taking it all for granted the way it would be so easy for a 16-year-old to do?

1:02:19Well, I remember probably being as satisfied after a loss as I ever was in my 19-year career. I felt like I played well. The occasion didn't overwhelm me. And I actually was really excited for the ceremony. I was probably one of the happiest finalists to hang out there on the court. And, you know, they didn't give trophies. I didn't get a trophy. And usually what they would give the runner-up or the finalists would be a bouquet of flowers and then um they would give you a check and i was supposed to have a check if i was professional for nineteen thousand dollars was supposed to be my check and that's what they would present but i couldn't get a check i was an amateur so i was given the microphone and this was they didn't do the interview format my my reflection is i just got the microphone and i think they'll go back to this right because we saw some awkward moments with this.

1:03:13And I just started to talk. I remember the first word out of my mouth and it got this fun reaction, which I went, hello. And it kind of echoed through Louis Armstrong. And I paused almost like I was answering the phone. Hello. You know, like, and everybody kind of cheered. And then, you know, I enjoyed, I enjoyed speeches even when I came in second through my career, I used it as a kind of an opportunity to have fun and to thank people. And, you know, usually for me, getting to a final was you know not a bad week it was a good week um so I didn't mind it and did it did it help with that feeling of sort of peace and happiness in that moment that you kind of felt like there was there was nothing else you could have done like you you gave your best out there you made it competitive it was it was Chrissy Evert in in her prime and and it it maybe wasn't on your racket yeah that's right I mean I think by that time that was about her 10th major she had won and she'd also been in a lot of other finals and this was my first one and I thought you know what overall you know kind of is part of the thing where as long as you you know prepare your best you tick off the boxes you do all you can if you come come in second then you come in second and I had a really good attitude about that and I think a lot of it was because oh yeah I'll be here again I didn't know I'd only be there again a whole bunch of times in doubles major finals but not in singles That's an incredible perspective from a 16 year old.

1:04:41I'd have stomped off the court Pam at 16. It would not have been pretty. My parents, Sam and Margot Shriver, they always told me I was actually for a teenager, I was pretty easy. I was on point. I was focused. That's why my kids threw me for a loop because I was such an easy angel. And I'm like, holy moly, what is this?

1:05:08OK, we've got some more questions for you, Pam. But before that, let's hear you asking questions of some other people. Pam this year has become our very favourite roving reporter. We don't even have to ask Pam to be a roving reporter for us. She's just she's just off requesting assignments. And Pam, my goodness, have you done us proud here. We're going to hear three interviews that Pam has done. talking about the US Open run and various different recollections. The first is we're going to hear from somebody that we were absolutely thrilled to get to meet at the US Open, someone that we've heard so much about through Pam and I know has been incredibly important to you and your story, Pam.

1:05:54We're going to hear from your sister, Eleanor. so riding out with my sister Eleanor who's eight and a half years younger than me and she came up for U.S. Open 2025 for us to hang out for a few days and Eleanor's going to reflect on what she remembers from my U.S. Open run in 1978 yeah it's it's an interesting question because I've been thinking really hard and I shouldn't I feel like I shouldn't be thinking that hard but I actually don't remember very much. Um, my, our parents did such a great job of keeping me focused on what a, you know, seven and a half to eight year old person is supposed to be focused on.

1:06:42And I don't, I don't remember much. Um, I don't remember seeing the match, but I remember when Pam came home from that tournament and I knew something was different. Um, What was different was these random vehicles came down our driveway with their windows down. The specific kind of vehicle is in my mind. It was a Camaro, and they were looking for Pam. And turns out it was some media outlet. I'll leave it nameless. But nonetheless, they wanted to reach out, connect, interview, get a scoop on Pam's U.S. Open run. And let's just say I remember my parents not being so happy that they were driving down our driveway.

1:07:33Well, I think it's perfectly understandable that a not-yet-eight-year-old wouldn't have really any recollection, is what you said earlier. You have no recollection. So mom and dad, you know, dad died in 2005. Mom, four years ago. Our older sister, Marion, who's two years older, died in 1997. So actually, of my original five family members, including myself, I'm the only one with a recollection of a lot of details. But that totally makes sense. But you kind of remember some pictures and stuff hanging around the house that maybe gave you a clue? Yeah, so my parents had a couple of photographs, especially one that I remember seeing.

1:08:21it's a black and white um kind of like a headshot but I know that it was from the trophy ceremony after the final against Chrissy she was holding some flowers and when I look at it I know what it I know what it's from I know what that day meant and it it definitely brings me joy so obviously it's a it's a photograph that still has a presence in in our home today so that was pam's delightful sister eleanor who is so much like you pam so much like you it was a real joy to meet her it was like oh it's another pam brilliant i'm so glad there's a second uh Shriver voice on here. So thank you. And a friend of the pod.

1:09:14Yes. Just brilliant. Pam sort of bullied her into becoming a friend of the pod. We appreciate it, Pam. Right. Pam's next two reports. Incredible work from Pam. We are going to hear from Pam's opponents in that 1978 US Open final and semifinal. We're going to hear from Chrissy Evatt and first from Martina Navratilova in conversation with Pam. With Martina Navratilova in the player lounge, reflecting on just a few years ago, my rookie season, 1978. And we ended up playing each other in the semis of the U.S. Open. What do you remember about that time for you? Well, I remember losing. I didn't remember losing two tie breaks until I looked at the record.

1:10:08And I just remember not being able to return your serve because you kept serving wide to my back end. And I didn't have a top-send back end back then, which I needed to control your serve. And the slice just wasn't working well enough. And you had a great volley. And it was a race to the net. And you outraced me. So I remember thinking, oh, my goodness, You know, another youngster that I have to deal with because I was still young enough where you didn't play that many players that were younger. You were like five years younger and it was your first breakthrough. And yeah, the crowd was enjoying it.

1:10:47And I remember you always looked like you had a smile on your face, you know, getting ready. It cracked me up when I watched you play Chris in the finals. You're just funny to watch between points, and you were fun to watch during points. It wasn't so much fun to play against you at that time. Well, maybe it was that humor that helped me snag you as a doubles partner for 10 years. Do you remember the rain delays during our semifinal in 78? I do not remember anything other than not being able to get the ball down off your serve. So, no. How many did we have? Two? We had a couple. Well, what's interesting is that for me, that was the biggest win of my career, really, beating you in a semi just a few weeks after you won your first major, Wimbledon, 78 over Chrissy.

1:11:36Do you remember after I beat you that you left me a note in the locker room? I must have been really nice then. I left a few notes for people, but I don't remember that I left one for you then. I know I left some notes for you, Chrissy, a couple for Steffi. but no, I mean, that was a pretty class act. I just wanted you to do well, you know, not necessarily beat Chris, as she was my friend, and we were kind of rooting for each other against the newcomers, but you were just so cool and sweet and nice and played fun games, so I just wanted you to play well in the finals. Well, actually, I did play well.

1:12:19I lost to Chrissy in a couple of tough sets. just a couple of words about Chrissy because Chrissy's always grateful that I beat you in the semis of 78 and I also beat Tracy Austin in the quarters of the 81 Wimbledon tournament which which helped her a lot to face me in the semis but the dynamic of what you and Chrissy were building on in the late 70s and early 80s did you have any idea of course not we had we We didn't know. I mean, we didn't know. You and I didn't know that we were going to play each other so many times. And same with Chris. And we played, what, 40-something, 42-something matches?

1:13:00And Chris and I played 80. I think we didn't realize until it was like, you know, started catching up to her. And we played more than like 30 times. And I'm like, okay, this is special. But never could we have imagined we would play each other that many times. So it's quite often you don't know you're in the kind of in the eyes of history when you are in it. You only realize it later. And that's what happened here. U.S. Open 1980 for me was big because I got to the doubles final with Betty Stova, her last tournament. We lost to you and Billie Jean in a really close final. And then a month later, you called me and asked me if I would be open to playing doubles with you starting January of 81.

1:13:44that was my career break what do you remember about that time I remember finding you I remember thinking okay I need to play with somebody my age that was a good doubles player and that that I would get along with that's the my biggest criteria was how good are you in doubles and are you a nice person because I really felt that I need to be friends with my doubles partner little did I know we would play for that many years and win that much and become such good friends to this day. So yeah, I just remember chasing you down and I got you on the phone and you said yes. And that was that. Well, it changed my tennis career.

1:14:24Last couple of questions.

1:14:28When you look back on the 10 years we shared as partners and we were juggling a lot. I was chasing you and Chrissy and then Steffi and Monica, and you were trying to cement your spot as the greatest all time. But we managed it all pretty doggone well. I did lose to you the last, I think, 33 times we played against one another. I got you three times early. But it was kind of fun because I was in the draw with you a lot because I wanted to play doubles and wanted to win a doubles title. So that was kind of a cool era. I mean, how many times did we play and then pretty much every time we played against each other we were playing doubles after that because we were winning because we were winning so much in doubles that we always were in the semis or finals in the doubles and then if we played each other it was also in the semi-finals or finals because you were you know top four so that was that was a little tricky and I always when I lost you and then we played doubles after that I really wanted to play well and you were so understanding and then I tried to be understanding when it went the other way around.

1:15:38So that was a bit tricky, but we managed it really well because we were able to compartmentalize and, you know, keep the eye on the ball, so to speak. And God, how many tournaments did we win together? 79. Not that I was counting. Wow. I didn't know that number, but it was such a fun partnership. Well, I just got to say you've been a special person in my life. I was glad I got you three times early in your career before you got that backhand improved so you could pass me more with it. And I love how these friendships through the decades continue. Thank you so much. 100%. Same here, babe.

1:16:19With Chris Everett, one of the toughest people I ever had to play and one of my best friends. Chrissy, what do you recall from 1978 U.S. Open? and you were trying to win your fourth in a row. I just couldn't believe. I started on the opposite side of the draw. I just couldn't believe I faced you in the final. Well, first of all, you came out of nowhere. I mean, if I looked at the draw, I would not have picked you out of, like, the first 20 picks to win the title because I didn't know much about you. I just knew you were young, and I was secretly very happy when you beat Martina. I remember feeling that because, you know, you got her out of the way for me.

1:17:06And what I saw was a tall, gangly 16-year-old with an Afro hairstyle with curls all over the place and kind of goofy and very sweet and very, very innocent in a lot of ways, but really, you know, mature in other ways, very intelligent. So I was just very surprised. I didn't know much about your game at all when I played you, but I knew you had a big serve volley. And sure enough, you had probably the biggest serve in those days, righty serve in those days. And, you know, the crowd loved you. I remember that. I remember the enthusiasm of the crowd to see a young face come on the scene with personality and really character.

1:17:57And you wore your heart on your sleeve. I mean, you were emotional. You could tell that you were a little nervous being in that big arena and playing the finals. I mean, that was your first US Open. You reached the finals. That was awesome. I can't believe that. Well, and you'd already won three. What I'm wondering is do you remember your semifinal was played after I beat Martina, and yours was affected by rain, and you didn't beat Wendy Termel until the Saturday, which was supposed to be women's final day. So instead, ends up, we played also Sunday afternoon, right before Connors and Borg. Do you remember that?

1:18:42So it's Shriver, Everett, Connors, Borg, back-to-back matches. No, I don't remember because I don't remember. I have to be reminded sometimes of these things. But, you know, I don't remember. I don't know what else to say. I just remember our match, and I don't remember who played after us or anything. Well, obviously, it was my only major final in singles. It's understandable how many you played in that you wouldn't remember all the details. It was a pretty close match. I mean, I came out of the gates and was able to hold serve against you. I'd never played you in singles, and I was scared to death that I might lose love and love, which actually happened earlier this summer at Wimbledon.

1:19:30But did you feel that you could be intimidating to someone like me coming out on the court? Yeah. I mean, I think reputation-wise, I don't think, like, you were afraid of my game. Like, I certainly wasn't going to overpower you with anything. but I think you know Martine and I were the two big names in that day and I think reputation-wise you probably felt like you know you had to really hit through me and everything had to be working for you you had to be serving well to hold serve because I had a good return for sure but at the end of the day all the pressure was on me you know because I was expected to win I was a lot older but I remember the match pretty well and I remember, you're right, how close it was only, correct me if I'm wrong, two breaks?

1:20:20Yeah, I think it was 7-5-6-4. I think I maybe broke you once but you broke me three times. That's my recollection. I haven't studied anything about it but I do know it started a string of wins for you over Shriver, 18 straight. And we had some fun during the US Open and reflecting on how sometimes I can be a bit of a bad sport. But if you lose 18 times to anybody, you can be a bad sport. You can be a bad sport anytime with me. You want me to tell that story that we played in Brighton, and it was indoors, fast indoors. So you're at your best on fast surfaces. Your serve was so great. And I remember the score was 7-6, 7-6, and I won in straight sets, but it was 7-6, two tie breaks.

1:21:09And I knew you were throwing a hissy fit in that match because I knew you had so many chances to break my serve. There was a lot of deuce-add points, and we went to shake hands, and you looked at me, and you said, I had add every single game. I had game point every single game, and I should have won that match. And I was like, oh, okay, Pammy. Meanwhile, it was her 14th straight win. No, but I, but I mean, it was like, at first I was like taken aback, but then I, but then I remembered who, who it was. And, and I knew that you sometimes got impulsive and that you, you know, said things sometimes without thinking.

1:21:53And so you were my friend and I didn't, I didn't worry about it, but I'm, I, I, I have to go back to that match. our U.S. Open match because the thing was in that first set what I do remember is you holding serve and the crowd really got behind you and I thought to myself middle of that first set this is tougher than I thought it would be because I really I knew you you must have been great to beat Martina but I knew that if you just, you know, your serve is so great that you held your serve, but I didn't know that you had things to back it up. And, you know, you did, you had that approach shot and you had the volley and you were consistent and you had composure for a 16 year old, even though you got flustered sometimes, you still had composure.

1:22:46You dealt with the pressure really well. I mean, that was, that was a very close match. One or two points made the difference. It's often the way with tennis matches. Well, what I can't believe is when I think about the passage of time from when I first met in 1978. You, I remember I saw you at Savannah Airport waiting at the luggage go round. Yeah, carousel. Thank you. I had flown in from Baltimore. You'd come up from South Florida, maybe the other tournament. That was my rookie year. And then to think here we are all these years later, still on the same broadcast team, having been friends through all of it.

1:23:20And Mita has had a backseat to the greatest rivalry in sports with you and Martina. It's been amazing. Pammy, it was, you had so many highlights in your career, especially the doubles with Martina. And the three of us have been intertwined, you know, throughout the last 40 years. And what I love about our years of my relationship is, you know, it went from tennis. happiness and even if we I beat you you beat me whatever we still were really good friends and then it went to being a mom and having kids and we both had three kids and I think that really bonded us and brought us together even more because that was a deeper kind of thing in our lives and that was about loving our kids and dealing with the issues and the problems that we had to deal with with our kids we had a deeper relationship because of that and now with the broadcasting.

1:24:15We're brought together as a team and you and I are a team now. So we're working together and we're helping each other. So, you know, I love you and we talk all the time and I do. I have a really special place in my heart for you, Pam. Chrissy, thank you. And as I wrap things up, I just want to say what you've meant to me, to women's tennis, to helping so many not-for-profits, whether it's in South Florida or throughout the country with your role at USTA Foundation. you're amazing and thank you so much thank you just checking in on david you okay david that's the second time i've listened to those conversations and i i feel quite tearful for the second time i mean on the the first time was on the the subway taking that that ride you were talking about the year that you you reached the the final pam you know and i was sitting there on my own listening to these these these conversations you sent through and i suddenly realized i'm sitting surrounded by people and i'm in floods of tears and it's because i mean i i was trying to i was trying to get to the bottom of why why i found it so emotional and i wonder whether our listeners do as well i think i think it is these shared years and these this this insight you're giving us into your relationship that we can know nothing about without your permission really without your conversations and what you've been through all together and, and how much it all means to you still all of you.

1:25:49And it's, uh, I think it's a beautiful thing. I really do. Well, you know what? It's a, it's like life. You, um, you share a sport. Um, and then Chrissy, yeah, she started to reflect. I mean, I remember when, um, my oldest sister died, she, Chrissy flew in for the for the funeral um we've been to each other's weddings um when her uh first when her sister died and her dad died i was able to get to south florida for their services so you know you you yeah you celebrate life you reflect when somebody passes and you literally share um every stage of life from when i was turned 16 and she was like 21 and and really the same with martina um but it's yeah it's been it's been quite amazing and it's another gift of the sport really are the friendships and the relationships and i think the other thing that i love about it is it's you're saying the sort of things to one another that sometimes people leave too late to say and uh and i think that's that's wonderful yeah i um yeah it's interesting because i i do think a lot of our sport um women's tennis we kind of reflect on the early 70s and all that billy jean and we just had the celebration the independence day celebration where the original nines um did the one dollar contracts to really start women's tennis on the pathway that that it is is the global leader of professional sports for women.

1:27:23And the role that Chrissy and Martina played starting in the mid-70s and continuing through to when Chrissy retired in 89 and Martina a few years later, including winning a major title a month before Martina turned 50, was quite important for women's tennis. I mean, if Billie Jean and the original nine had carried it so far and they didn't have martina and chrissy to to continue to lead it forward for 20 almost 20 years and and i i feel sometimes that the sport you know obviously great appreciation and respect they played 80 times but i don't think they're given the credit for making sure women's tennis continued to to rise and thrive

1:28:11yeah they made personal sacrifices to build the tour didn't they they did too they were both presidents of the wta i looked up to them it was one of the reasons why i got into the governance of the game um as president of the wta in the in the early 90s one of the reasons why when the usta the largest governing body of sports in the in the world as far as financials knew they needed to have elite athletes in their decision making in the boardroom I signed up for that you know a lot of it it was following the footsteps of these giants of our game Billy Gene Martina Chrissy obviously didn't have the same singles career but I think we all take great pride of our involvement in trying to make the tours better make tennis better I mean you know what what Chrissy's done as a philanthropist in the game and and I I just really cherish that part.

1:29:04And, you know, it's something that I feel like all of us want to do is just continue to make tennis better. Just, just going, we've got a few other questions for you, Pam, sort of about life beyond 1978. But just briefly going back to 1978, you went back to school the next day. Yep. That might be the craziest element of this whole story. Like what was that like? Did you feel a different person? Um, I did. Um, I, this was an era where it was really before tennis academies. Nick Bollateri was maybe just starting as little a tennis academy in Florida. I was homeschool was not even a word that we knew about.

1:29:49So I, I went to a, uh, a normal high school, um, in Baltimore suburbs and I'd missed the first couple of days of school because of how I did the second week of the Open. And I remember when the headmaster said, we're going to have a school-wide assembly. And this was a kindergarten through 12th grade co-ed school. And we're going to have a school-wide assembly. And we want you to speak about your U.S. Open experience. I actually became more shy and uncomfortable than I was speaking after I lost the finals to Chrissy and to, you know, 18 ,000 people on Louis Armstrong. I can just remember like going back to being a teenager and not wanting to stand out in front of my peers, my classmates and, oh, but I got through it.

1:30:34And I also remember being on campus, walking between the academic building and the sports fields when that black Camaro from the National Enquirer rolled down the window and said to me, do you know where I can find Pam Shriver? I'd like to interview her. I'm like, well, that's me. And my mom, Margo is not allowing me to talk to you so no wow funny that's incredible do you i mean that's how much life changed just having reached the final not just having reached the final but having reached the final like do you especially i guess when you see cases like emma raducanu say and and that there are plenty of other examples but do you think about how much life would have changed how much your career would have changed if you'd won that final, like potentially not entirely for the, for the better even maybe.

1:31:33Well, I guess I haven't thought about it a lot. I mean, I, I, sometimes I think, well, if I had won it, would I have been one of the many one slam singles wonders and just won the one or winning one so early would have really opened the floodgates and maybe I would have won a handful. I don't know. But in the meantime, you know, I, I, I have no regrets. And it's kind of a curiosity that you'd get to a major final at 16 and be a top 10 player for eight years and have over 630 singles wins and yet only be in that one major singles final. But it's like, look at all those great players that were ranked between three, four, and say eight in the men's game during the big three.

1:32:16And how many maybe reached one final, like Sanga or Burdick or whatever, their doors were slammed. So that's another group that I could totally relate to. Those men that played a lot and won a lot of matches, David Ferrer. Like, I understand what you went through. Were there any of the other slam semifinals that you reached in singles that you think maybe, oh, I could have won that and got back to a major final? I mean, looking at the players you came up against, one more against Chris Everett, four more against Neva Atalova, two against Graf, but then there was one against Mandlakova, 1982 US Open.

1:32:58Let's talk about that one. Where you got a set. Yeah. Yeah, that was... Okay, so she was only, I think, a four-time singles major winner and a future Hall of Famer. She was my next best draw in a semifinals of a major. I played all future Hall of Famers. yes that was the one I'd beaten Martina in the quarters um so and this was before Martina had won the U.S. Open was her last to complete the career singles Grand Slam and I stopped her again in 82 in the quarters so yes I did think I had a chance against Manlakova but she was somebody I had a tough time beating because of that matchup so I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it good I did have to crack up by the way I had to crack up how many times I said to Martina and Chrissy and even my sister do you remember when I got the finals at US Open do you remember details and I was like the only one that has like this great memory of what happened yes you've got so many you've got all the stats on your career I loved you dropping the the title stat to Martina oh yeah yeah okay can you remember I mean you mentioned now you were an amateur and you couldn't get this money.

1:34:09I actually looked up when I realized it was$19 ,000. I looked up a week ago and I was watching the final how much that would be worth today. And it would have been worth the equivalent of$94 ,000, which was nowhere near as much as I was expecting. And I mean, I suppose that shows how the game has gone in terms of the money just going off the charts in terms of how much it was. But can you remember, given the age you were and when you did start to earn money from the sport, can you remember a feeling or a time of, whoa, look how much money I've got from achieving what I'm achieving? Well, March of 1979, so about six months after I got that US Open final, I did turn pro.

1:35:02It would have been the equivalent of the WTA 500 in Philadelphia. I got to the quarters, and I remember my first check. I have pictures of it somewhere of$3 ,000. So that was like my first check. I remember most of the major doubles championships that Martina and I won, our prize money, we would split like$80 ,000, like in the heart of our career, about that. So yeah, it's totally, totally different. I remember playing a Battle of the Sexes exhibition match at Trump's place in Atlantic City back in like 85. It was Navratilova and Shriver against Bobby Riggs and Vetus Gerolitis. And I got a guarantee of$100 ,000.

1:35:38And that was my biggest ever payday was actually the Battle of the Sexes doubles match, which was like a stupid exhibition, but it, heck, paid well. So yeah, it was totally different. But you know what? Financial literacy, if you like hold on to your money and you invest well, it's like I did fine. I don't know what I earned, but I did much better than, say, the original nine. They were the ones that were really didn't have much prize money. The double, your doubles partnership with Martina. Can you can you talk us through a little bit how how that came about? I mean, Martina touched upon it in your interview with her there.

1:36:19But yeah, talk us through how it came about. And well, yeah, we've got a couple of other questions about that. that partnership. I mean, the greatest, greatest partnership of all time. Well, I remember I was on a practice court in Deerfield beach, Florida for a WTA 500 equivalent back then. And, um, Lee Jackson, long time referee, like the first, uh, chair empire that traveled the tour with us. She, I hear her voice now, Pam, Martina's on the phone. And I, she had never, Martina never called me before. And it was just a couple of weeks after, um, I'd lost to Martina and Billy in the, um, us open final.

1:37:00And there she was, Martina was asking me if I would start playing with her starting January of, uh, 81. And I did not have a commitment to another partner, but let me tell you, I stand on my ethics and principles, but if I did have another commitment with a partner, I think I would have said, sorry, I just got a call from Martina. You're going to have to find somebody else. I think Billy Jean was kind of put off because Billie Jean and Martina had won that U.S. Open. But Martina spoke her truth. She wanted to play with a younger. Billie Jean was much older than Martina. And, you know, who knew that it was going to last?

1:37:37Best part of 10 years, 20 majors. We had a 109-match win streak. We didn't lose for over two years. And I do get a little bent out of shape. I love the Bryan Twins, and I love that they were inducted in the Hall of Fame. But when, you know, when I like hear about their record, sure, they played a lot longer. They played twice as long together. So they're going to rack it up. But when you look at our major final record and, you know, just how long we were the best team and we hardly ever lost. So I'll take our record over the Brian twins any day. And I'm right in saying you mentioned that win streak.

1:38:13I'm sure you told us once, Pam, that during one of your many win streaks, Martina said, we're going to change sides. Can you tell that story? Yeah. Yeah. So we're going into the tour final in Madison Square Garden. This is my recollection. I think it was spring of 85. We were somewhere in the 70s as far as the win streak. And Martina was coached by a former ATP tour player, Mike Estep. And we used to play bridge together and he was a very tactical strategic coach. Um, and he was the one that was suggested that in the middle of what ended up being 109 match win streak that we switch, switch sides.

1:38:51And I would then play the ad side, Martina, the deuce side. And it, and it was just, it was just like for me to think about changing, but I kind of like if Martina said jump, I would say how high, I mean, I, she literally could, she's the only person I think that could have suggested that, that I would have done it. And it turns out we were able to control or continue the win streak. We almost lost in the finals of that tournament. And then my recollection is by the time we lost, we had switched back because we realized we weren't quite as good. Crazy. What did make you so good, Pam, as a partnership?

1:39:29Well, look, chemistry and communication is the cornerstone. I just got off coaching my son's college teams. There's a lot of doubles in college tennis. And I keep stressing, like, you got to communicate well and you need good chemistry. And we had those things. And Martina reflected on how funny she found me. And I do think we used humor as one of the cornerstones. And we tried to do it in a respectful way. Like, if we started to have, like, fun during a match and we were winning easily, we didn't want the opponents to feel like we were, you know, taking it lightly or joking around. But it was more like we just enjoyed each other's company.

1:40:06and I think I could always lighten things up for Martina. And that skill to be able to bring joy and fun to the workplace is pretty important. And let me just go into our games. Lefty-righty combo. We both crushed and rushed. We were both in singles we liked to serve and volley. And this was the generation where doubles was played the old traditional way. I mean, I cannot remember in our 10 years of playing together, all those matches, I don't think we ever served and stayed back once. I'm not even sure we returned and stayed back unless somebody was like the biggest server on tour. So our games meshed, our personalities meshed, even though we were really different in where we were born and our backgrounds.

1:40:46But we just clicked. Just on the subject of you mentioned earlier your overhead. I still have a recollection. I can't remember who you were playing, what the year was exactly. but it was somewhere in the early 80s of you two playing a pair and them lifting several lobs that Martina just could not put away and then you more or less said right out the way I'm having this one and you just finished the rally with this overhead I mean you know she had a good overhead too but it was it was yeah watching it you're thinking well where are the gaps yeah how'd you get through this pair. Yeah, we were tough to go through and we were almost impossible to go over.

1:41:28When a lob did get over our heads, I give you one guess of the two of us who would get that lob. Come on, Matt. Shriver, of course. No, I'm wrong. First time you get wrong.

1:41:46Pam, it would feel incomplete, I think, to do this whole show without touching upon the show that you did with us three and a half years ago and sort of haven't wanted to make that too much of too much of this story because you've told that story but it is also it's a part of it right it's it's a part of it and I wonder it seems very clear that I'm sure I'm sure there's things you think about with regards to your career but it seems very clear that there's nothing that's sort of haunting you or keeping you up at night, some big sliding doors moment. Like, what if I'd won that point? Maybe, maybe, maybe.

1:42:28But I do wonder the experience you went through with your longtime former coach, Don Candy, and what you now know to characterize as abuse and total blurring of boundaries in that relationship. I do wonder if you have sort of a sliding doors mentality with regards to that, just in terms of your career and what you could have achieved had you not had that as so big a part of your experience. You know, I have thought of it a little bit as I've matured and had a lot of distance from that five-year period where the relationship crossed over the lines and became what I know now is abusive. You know, it took us so much energy and I had so much emotions.

1:43:24And a lot of the emotions were really bad emotions, negative, when I think about it. And it took a lot to manage that I didn't understand at the time. So I think it's fair enough, and it's probably one of the reasons why I've been, like, once I decided to tell my story after my mom died a little over four years ago, why I wanted to do what I could to try and push for better safeguarding in this sport. It hasn't proved as productive yet, but I do know it takes a long time to change cultures. But it is something that I reflect on quite painfully when I know players are struggling in this trap of somebody on their team that has taken advantage of the situation and turned it into a sexual relationship.

1:44:19It's just plain unhealthy, especially when they're young and can't quite find their voice. It is a total power dynamic wrong. So I feel very strongly about it. It's certainly nothing easy to talk about. I do in my two and a half years coaching Donna, and I've now got a coaching credential. And there are times where I can feel a little uncomfortable with who I'm seeing in the player lounge or player restaurant or following on a practice court many, many times. But that's okay. I think I'm comfortable with being a part of trying to push for it. And I do know that it certainly affected my life, not in a good way, but I've come a long way to kind of overcome that, um, those years.

1:45:12Do you think, I know the process has been slower and, and a lot more frustrating than is, than is ideal. and the fact that you've persevered with it in the way that you have is so inspiring. Do you think that could end up being your biggest contribution, your biggest legacy? You know, I don't know. I think my legacy is going to kind of reflect my attention span. It's going to really cover quite a few areas, whether it's my area as a broadcaster, as a player, as somebody who is willing to take board positions and off-court places at the table where decisions are made, whether it's safeguarding, whether it's really pushing the mental health, the mindset, the importance of really an athlete taking care of their brain and all that the brain does to enable you to be at your best.

1:46:09And I still think my legacy was kind of fun in my early 60s. I really feel very clear and confident about speaking out. I have a lot of independence. As you all know, I shared with you, you know, I've worked for ESPN for 35 years. They notified me like a week or so ago that I'm not going to get another contract. It doesn't mean I won't be a voice on their broadcast again, but I'm entering a different stage of my broadcasting. I still work for Tennis Channel. I have a lot of perspective and a lot I want to say, and I want to do some of that. I want to work on the mindset and I want to help, not necessarily in the coaching box, but I have some visions with what I want to do still and contribute to the sport, as well as things in my home area, devastated by the fires.

1:46:55I have two home areas. I care about them both. Baltimore, where I grew up with my family of origin, and Los Angeles, where my kids were born and I've raised my three kids that are now over 20. They're no longer in the teens. So yeah, there's still a long way to go. But I certainly appreciate what you guys have brought to me as friendships and places that I can go to have fun during a major tournament. You have brought so much to us, Pam. Your energy and humour and integrity and intelligence and wit is just such a big part of our lives now. And it's incredible. watching watching the footage of you with cliff richard at wimbledon this year in the wimbledon in the wimbledon media center is a highlight true highlight of 2025 well listen i think taking moments where chrissy spoke about me being impulsive like i can remember seeing uh cliff richard out there struggling it was like day three of a like a rain fest at wimbledon no roof and he starts to sing and i just said to all the players in the locker room let's go let's go be his background girls let's go and and everybody everybody wanted to have some fun and or whether it's this year at the hall of fame gala like i decided to dance across the stage you know you just have these moments of fun and i still want to have a lot of those yeah my my favorite like character trait in people is taking the right thing seriously but not taking everything too seriously and I feel like that's you you all over my favorite thing to do when I did this today to to find pictures to promote this show is to put your name into the Getty Images search some of your some of your red carpet pictures Pam from down the years are absolutely iconic it's amazing more people should take that approach to the red carpet yeah it was funny I was in the president's box at the US Open this year and one row in front of me without her seatmate was Anna Wintour and with all my fashion sense I decided I'd go say hi and interviewed her a few times so yeah I want to improve on that too I'm gonna I'm gonna step up my fashion game you've got a she's taking everything seriously Anna Wintour you had some wonderful suits at the open, Pam.

1:49:20Yes, you did. Yes, I'm working on it.

1:49:26Pam, this has been truly a joy. Well, thanks for telling my story and thanks for you know, I look forward. Now I have a better mic set up. Thank you, David for being my tech support. Now I can almost become a true podcaster with a better mic set up. So thank you. David really means that if you called him in the middle of the night Solly whole time and requested audio tech support David would be thrilled Correct No really Pam you've been so generous with your time Not just recording but planning this show And obviously doing those interviews And yeah we've wanted to do this for a long time And get it right and hope we've done you justice You have thanks very much thank you Pam and thank you Matt for your incredible research and thank you as always to the Wimbledon Library and Matt's golfing partner Robert McNichol the Wimbledon historian made his debut on our Instagram this week to much fanfare.

1:50:30Congratulations on the Ryder Cup Euros well done. Thank you Pam. Thanks Pam I needed some golf success because I was beaten by Robert McNichol the other day so So got to bounce back from that. But thank you, Europe. Thank you, Europe. Thank you, Pam. Thank you, Team Europe. Folks, thank you all for being friends of the Tennis Podcast, for making shows like this possible. We hope you've enjoyed it. Plenty more coming your way soon. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you very soon.