BONUS: US Open Re-Lived - The 1996 Re-Draw!

24:52Matt Roberts:But as reported here by Robin Finn in the New York Times at the time, yesterday, fourth ranked Yevgeny Kafelnikov, infuriated by his demotion to the number seven slot in this year's subjective and controversial United States Open seeded process, hopped the first plane back to Russia as a gesture of protest. I was completely shocked when I heard what they had done to me, said the reigning French Open champion, an all-court player who has won four of his ten career titles on hard courts. I've won a Grand Slam this year and I'm not a bad hard court player. They wouldn't have done this to someone like Boris Becker and I'm going home because I don't want to be part of a tournament that does things like that.

25:39Catherine Whitaker:It could be Daniel Medvedev, couldn't it?

25:44Matt Roberts:So Medvedev coded. The 22-year-old Russian said...

25:48Catherine Whitaker:I'm a specialist in hardcourt.

25:51Matt Roberts:The 22-year-old Russian said the rib injury that Open officials used as a reason for his deflated seeding would not have been serious enough to prevent him from playing at the Open, where he had a mathematical chance of seizing the number one ranking had he won the title. This Grand Slam was, for me, a golden opportunity because I'm searching to be number one, and I'd been taking treatment and my ribs felt better, he said yesterday after checking out of his Manhattan hotel. But I decided this morning that my head is completely gone because of this. I'm completely frustrated, so I'm going home.

26:28Matt Roberts:Kifanikov said US Open officials who deviated this year from the men's ranking in order to present what they believed was the strongest field of 16 on hard courts should take his exit as a signal that players will not support an event that spurns the ATP tour rankings. I want to send a warning to them, said Kofelnikov, who also sent them the requisite doctor's report, excusing him for medical reasons. As of yesterday, an irate Thomas Muster was contemplating following Kofelnikov's lead. Muster was also slighted at Wimbledon, which dropped him from second to seventh on its seeding list, and he subsequently withdrew from that Grand Slam tournament.

27:13Matt Roberts:There's still some stuff floating around about Musta not playing the Open, said Les Snyder, the United States Tennis Association president, who championed the new seeding technique and plans to retain it as an open policy. Snyder said he accepted Kofelnikov's withdrawal on the basis of his medical report, adding that he considered it a justification of the decision to lower the Russian seeding after hearing he was injured. Snyder said it was news to him that Kafelnikov skipped town because of insult, not injury. If now he says he's not playing because of a snub, not an injury, that's interesting, said Snyder.

27:51Matt Roberts:And I think he's opening himself to some scorn. Kafelnikov's decision to boycott the Open was supported by the ATP tour head Mark Miles, whose group's ranking system, adhered to by every tournament except Wimbledon, was defied by the Open. Miles said that he could excuse Wimbledon for its selectivity, but not the Open. It's absolutely unacceptable and unfair the way the US Open has handled this draw, and it's completely unfair to Evgeny Kefelnikov, Miles said. He's fought all year for the number four ranking. He's earned that seeding. Kefelnikov's 57 victories lead the tour this year, and he won the Hamlet, a hardcore tune-up for the Open in 1994 and 1995.

28:39Matt Roberts:What earth was the Hamlet, David? Was it Shakespearean? I think it was Long Island, talking to Evgeny,

28:50David Law:because he references that in our chat. So I think it's that one. So that's what he's right. Yeah, he was a player that liked to play a lot, including the week before tournaments. and he would tend to win the same tournament quite a lot, you know.

29:07Catherine Whitaker:Very unlike the Neil Medford-Dep. Yes.

29:12Matt Roberts:Miles said the tour was vehement in its appeal to have the original men's draw, which was made by the Open, sorry, excuse me, made before the Open announced its men's seating, thrown out and redone. So the tour had lobbied for the redraw. But he said Snyder rejected his appeal and that the Open also abandoned its selective seeding strategy. Yesterday, Open officials filled Kofelnikov's spot with 16th ranked Felix Mantia. Justice is done for Felix, who was snubbed when they released their original list of seeded players. There was a rumour that Spanish players threatened an en masse boycott if the Open ignored Mantia's ranking and added Michael Shtick to the seeded contingent.

30:04Matt Roberts:And on that note, let's hear David talking to the snubbed Yevgenica Felnikov about this episode. Well, I do remember that I knew to play Long Island the week before, as I always have. I was two times defending champion. I think I won 94, 95. And I came to the tournament. And honestly, it's been 30 years ago. I can't remember the reason I pulled out. Maybe I was fatigued or something. But basically, I pulled out of the Hamlet due to the injury. And the injury was, I think, something has to do with my rib. Obviously, it wasn't a big issue that put in jeopardy my participation in the next week US Open.

30:58So details, you know, could be various. But I don't remember exactly when was the draw made. but obviously I think my personal opinion that the US Open used that excuse not to draw me as a number three or four seats. You remember how it was working, you know, number one and two in the opposite, number three and the four was drawing also in opposite sides. But five to eight was, you could be drawing against anybody. and I think I was number three in the world and I was because of that I was not supposed to play Pete before the semi-final and that year you remember Boris won the Australian Open I won the French Richard won the Wimbledon and the Americans were left without any Grand Slams at that point so by moving me into the I can't remember.

32:01They put me then as a number eight seed. So I had to, when the draw came out, I had to play Pete in the quarters. And knowing my pass results in Pete, that's the one player I wanted to avoid playing on the hard court. I wouldn't mind playing Andre, but Pete was too difficult for me to handle. So when I saw that, I said, no, this can't be happening. And again, I'm not very into the historic, if US Open ever done that before. I knew that Wimbledon had their own procedure of seating, so I understand that, because grass is a very unique surface and you have to do it. But on the hard court, it's obviously, you know, it's a very complicated surface and you cannot use that excuse to do different seatings rather than Wimbledon.

32:57David Law:So when they moved you, you were upset about it. And what did you do? Did you go and speak to the ATP? Did you speak to the tournament? David, again, it was 30 years ago. Of course, I would have gone to speak to whoever was the tour manager, you know, CEO, I remember Mark Miles, of course, I probably did speak to all of them. Why are you doing that? And the excuse came up is that they didn't knew whether I was going to be participating in the US Open because I pulled out of the tournament the week before. Right. So that was basically it. Yeah. and you know I obviously you know started fuming because because I was even at that time I still I think I was in a position to challenge the number one ranking in the end of the year because you know my results previously so that was that was a story and did you did you feel that this was something that happened quite a lot on the circuit generally that maybe players that weren't American or players that weren't Sampras Nagasi and the biggest names were maybe not treated the same?

34:22Well, you know, I don't want to speculate that it's not in my position to do so.

34:29David Law:I don't want to believe in that. I just don't want to believe in that. I think we were all treated fairly similar even though Peter Nander at that time was the biggest superstar for the tour and we understand that they have basically the flagmans of the whole ATP but we never complained but it was the reason you left the tournament was because you couldn't accept the situation I couldn't accept the situation, if there was a Wimbledon I would understand that but you open on the hard court where you know i was i was contending for the title i believe i could contend in the for the title at the time and to do that it was just you know basically unfair to me just as a final thing looking back on your decision to to go home in the 96 us open i mean that was a really big thing to do in as much as you you cost yourself you cost yourself money and you cost yourself a chance to, as you said, maybe finish year as world number one.

35:39David Law:Are you quite proud in a way that you stood up to that? I think 30 years past, my personal decision was a correct one for me. I didn't like... Because, again, David, I was playing throughout the whole year to get in a position to get properly seated on the biggest stages on our tour. I think slam is the biggest stages, yes. And, you know, I was ranked three in the world that week. I remember that like crystal clear, like it was yesterday. And to seated me like seven or eight, just because I didn't play a week before I pulled out with the so-called injury, I think it's just not fair. Yeah. No, I agree with you.

36:31David Law:I agree with you. And do you, I mean, I know it is 30 years ago, but do you remember at all when you came back to the tour a few weeks later, did any of the players speak to you about it? No, when I left, I think it was a big, I think, interview with the players. And if I'm, again, I might be wrong, but Felix Mantilla was 17 in the world and they put him as a 16 seed because I pulled out. Again, they redraw the things when I pulled out or they put somebody else on my position. So there were so many things happening and again, I don't remember the whole details because I left. So, no, when I came back, nobody spoke to me, to be honest, and I didn't want to, you know, talk about that issue anymore.

37:24David Law:Do you think you would have, would you have ignored the tournament when you, I mean, did you fly to Monte Carlo or something like that? I mean, did you just go home? No, I went home to Moscow, yeah. So I pulled out with no hesitation. I said, okay, I'm not home. I go home. Yeah. Well, 30 years ago, 30 years ago. Thank you, Evgeny, for reminiscing with me. I really appreciate it. No problem, Derek, anytime.

37:56Matt Roberts:We are actually going to hear from Evgeny again a little bit later in the show. It gives me real Champions Tour flashbacks hearing his voice, David.

38:06David Law:It's funny to think that he was one of the two players I struggled most to connect with when I was at the ATP from 1998 to 2002. I mean, he and I had some real arguments. He threatened me one time, not physically, but just sort of, you know or he sort of i think i'm i i insisted that he redo an interview because he'd just done it so badly because you can hear there how good he is when he when he wants to talk when he's prepared to talk he's actually really good and he did an interview with bbc radio uh after a lot of when he was world number one in 1999 and he came to the london tournament and i arranged him to do this interview and he just answered everything with like one word answers just just almost as a protest to me to sort of, and to the rules to again, like protesting.

39:01David Law:He knew that if he didn't do the interview, he would get fined because there were some rules in there. And so he did it with one word answers. And I said, well, if you're going to do it like that, you're going to get fined anyway. And, and he said, what are you threatening me? And I said, uh, I'm just telling you how it's going to be. And, um, turns out I hadn't got a leg to stand on, but I didn't know that so i kind of called his bluff accidentally and and as a result of that he didn't want to get fined so he redid it and he did it brilliantly um and yeah we did we we did not really get along at all during our time on the on the circuit and then when he when he retired and we came back on the champions tour kind of got to know him again and he was very different by the time he returned

39:47Matt Roberts:yeah i mean i only knew the champions tour evgeny and he was always really nice to me but i remember other players saying you know do you know how weird this is for us that like he's this guy because yeah this is not the guy that this is not the guy that we used to know

40:05David Law:no i mean like now he'll answer any message that i send him like he he set up an interview for me with Anastasia Mishkina for one of our previous Relive shows. You know, he went out of his way. I always remember Larry Stefanky, who used to coach him, when I interviewed him, he said, Larry, Evgeny likes to be included, which I found very interesting. You know, I feel like there's probably a lot I wouldn't agree with Evgeny about. But also, I find it quite interesting to listen to him because he's got a different view and he feels so strongly about it that he's actually prepared to pull out of a tournament, as we've seen here.

40:47Matt Roberts:And I do, when I first heard about this story and the headline of Kafelnikov pulling out, I wondered if he was maybe annoyed, maybe not now, but at the time that he might perhaps have been expecting others to follow him, for him to be the leader of a revolt here and perhaps he was disappointed that they didn't. But I actually get the sense from listening to him that it wasn't really about that, that this was what he felt was the right thing to do for him regardless of what everybody else was doing. And nobody else did follow him, but they all had something to say about the situation, David, or certainly a lot of them did.

41:30David Law:Yeah, it's one of those where you get an issue at a tennis tournament and then you get media day where all the players come in, they all get asked about it. And it's interesting to see whether they all, you know, these days, and I don't know whether it was like that back then, but these days you can often feel as though they've all been prepared with a couple of lines from an agent or a communications person, and they just sort of parrot the same lines, and it can all be quite boring. Well, this wasn't boring.

42:00Catherine Whitaker:And I think clearly here what has happened really between the lines of the press conference transcripts is that somewhere between the redraw and media day, there'd obviously been a big players meeting about it all that I think a lot of them were present at. there was a very notable a couple of notable absences Michael Chang wasn't there Andre Agassi wasn't there um and they were obviously the ones who benefited kind of the most from from the seedings being changed but the other players were all there and it's felt like maybe some of them had got their message together in in that meeting which is a little bit like what

42:40David Law:we're seeing now with the the little boycotts that Larry Scott's group have organized you know and they've come up with the 15-minute rule to sort of, you know, indicate the amount of revenue they are getting, etc. But this was, yeah, this was much higher stakes because you've actually got a player who's withdrawn and you've redrawn the whole thing. And Sergio Beguera was asked about it and he said, it's embarrassing what they did with the draw. It's very ugly what they did to the players. You're fighting all year to make a good draw in the Grand Slam. I don't know who is number 14. Maybe he can't win the US Open, but maybe he can reach the quarterfinals if he gets a good draw.

43:32David Law:For him, quarterfinals is a big goal. If somebody, the president from the USTA, they take him out of the seedings and put him like playing first match against Sampras, I think it's completely unfair. that was sergio baguera who had won two roland garris titles and had just reached the final of the olympics you know he's he's a big name mal washington who was the runner up at um at the uh the wimbledon that had just gone um he said i've always been a big fan of all tournaments following the atp rankings i think that's the only fair way to do it i think that's the way it should be done all the grand slams that's just my personal opinion i remember a couple of years ago at Wimbledon I actually benefited from being seeded when I really wasn't supposed to be yeah I could imagine what it felt like for the guy who kind of got bumped out because of of me like some of the guys were saying in the press conference yesterday in the players lounge a guy works his butt off for his whole career for the whole year he's in a position to be seeded at a grand slam I don't care if he's American or Argentine or Spanish or whatever if he's in a position to be seated he should be seated it's an honor to be seated at a grand slam i don't think a guy should be dissed at all um he was and this is where i i got the story from really because i'd read that line and then he says what's your opinion regarding kafelnikov so this is where i realized that this is this is something we needed to look into he said if he feels that that's the action he should take he should take it i mean me personally i may protest in a little different way than pulling out of the tournament i know this tournament meant a lot to him if he'd done extremely well a couple of the guys didn't do so well he had the chance to overtake the number one spot he definitely sacrificed a lot being seeded as low as he was obviously meant a lot to him he's a ball player on any surface what was he seeded seventh down from four i don't think i can agree with that seeding

45:32Catherine Whitaker:a reasonable isn't he malavie washington measured thoughtful just like a good good

45:40David Law:and it's straightforward like you know if he's representing you if you were the players and he

45:46Catherine Whitaker:was speaking up for you like that that's what you want and and i do think it's interesting like again there's so many different things at play here like I don't know what you two think about like changing the seedings up I think the the really bad thing to me is that they just went and did it without telling anyone behind closed doors in this improper way like I I think there were there were legitimate complaints at the time regarding the way the ATP rankings were done you know thinking back to our show on the history of the rankings This is an era of best 14. And you had people stacking their rankings with clay court events, if that was the surface they were best at, and maybe getting a slightly inflated ranking potentially.

46:41Catherine Whitaker:And their grand slams weren't on their record because they'd just put a load of... So there was a lot of complaint generally throughout the year about the ranking system. And so I think some people thought it was a bit rich for suddenly a lot of the players to suddenly be saying, oh, you've got to go by the ATP rankings. But I think the US Open might have got away with it a bit more if they'd communicated that this is what they were going to do in advance. I still think there would have been some pushback because of hard courts being different to Gras and Wimbledon. But I think the fact that they did it on the sly is what really annoyed people and what really made people go to bat for the ATP rankings, even if actually through the year people had their problems with the ranking system as well.

47:23Matt Roberts:I think it really damages their case that they've made decisions based on injury. I mean, fair enough, you know, waiting to see if a player is going to withdraw. You know, if they're an injury risk, Boris Becker did end up withdrawing. Fair enough. But giving the justification of relegating Kafelnikov to the extent they did because he'd pulled out of a tournament the week before a slam with an injury niggle, even though he said he was okay and he was still fine to compete in the US Open I think that is very dodgy very very dodgy territory I think they really harmed I think you've given a better defence of what they did than they did Matt put it that way because I think that's extremely dodgy territory yeah

48:22Catherine Whitaker:do you think i mean i do do you think if we did the pod we'd we'd do the pod with both drawers and just like compare them oh the possibilities i i mean i do think wimbledon is a real problem

48:39Matt Roberts:right i do understand the us open thinking well if they can do it why can't we like okay grass is specialized and everything but the principle the principle was set and was pretty accepted by the sport um so i do if you're going to accept that principle at wimbledon i don't logically i don't see any reason why it can't and shouldn't be applied at the u.s open but yeah just randomly doing it out of nowhere and giving quite scattergun explanations for why you're doing

49:10David Law:it um is dodgy yeah i would say that i think regarding wimbledon we're hearing from players here that are sympathetic to that and understanding of of wimbledon moving the ceilings around there are also a lot of players that didn't think that should be happening you know particularly players who would sort their ranking out and on clay and then just get demoted um there are a lot lot of players who just didn't didn't play Wimbledon you know because they might not be sort of boycotting but they kind of thought well what's the point you know um there was a very much sort of divide between grass and clay and and in fact of course we saw Ivan Mendel pull out of clay for a couple of years because he wanted to concentrate on the grass and try to you know fill out his his career cv um it's it is so much better now in that way

50:07Matt Roberts:And it was an inequitable situation, right? You had all the clay quarters getting demoted at Wimbledon, but they didn't get promoted at the French Open. So it was all just very, very unsatisfactory, I think, the inconsistent nature.

50:29David Law:And Wimbledon would argue that, well, yeah, but we don't have a very long grass court season, So we can't build records on grass. You know, we've got to take into account. I understand that viewpoint. I still think that it's done the correct way now.

50:47Matt Roberts:We have now arrived at the role play portion of the show, which I'm very excited about. I'm going to assign roles. I would like you to, you know, try and inhabit them as best you can. You know, go full Jeremy Strong method acting, if you wish. Matt, for the next couple of minutes, you're going to be Michael Shtick in the 1996 US Open pre-tournament press conference, OK?

51:20Catherine Whitaker:Can I just say out front, won't be doing a German accent.

51:27Catherine Whitaker:But I will, you know, try to be expressive. David, what's Michael Shtick like? Arcee. Okay.

51:37David Law:I mean, I really like Michael Shtick. Should I play Michael Shtick, Matt?

51:40Matt Roberts:Would that be better?

51:42David Law:I think either one of you can pull it off. But he, yeah, he was never shy about getting involved in an argument.

51:53Matt Roberts:And chippy, right?

51:55David Law:Yeah, chippy, arcee, absolutely.

51:57Matt Roberts:Okay, I'm really excited for this from Matt.

52:00Catherine Whitaker:Okay, I'll do my best.

52:02Matt Roberts:Michael, are a lot of the men's players still in an uproar about the seeding situation and the draw and those types of things? Has that gone away at all?

52:13Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, not with me. I can just speak for myself. I still feel it's embarrassing what happened. I was about to fly home tomorrow. I was about to pull out yesterday and say, that's it. They seeded me first, then they changed and seeded Mantilla. I think it's disrespectful to me. For example, that nobody from the ATP or the USTA had the courage to call and say, we changed it again. They did it without notifying anybody. I felt it's so disrespectful to anybody playing in the tournament that I felt I should have gone home. There are many reasons for playing, spectators and kids who come out here and want to enjoy tennis.

52:56Catherine Whitaker:So I did decide to stay.

52:59Matt Roberts:So what do you think the lingering effects might be after these two weeks are up?

53:04Catherine Whitaker:Oh, I don't know. I don't know if anything's going to change. I feel either we should have done a little bit more, like just cancel the Monday of the tournament, something like this, or not show up today, start the tournament tomorrow to get a stronger message through or not complain too much. The rules allow the US Open to do what they did, no matter if they did it before or not. But they do have the right to do it. The way they did it is what we have to complain about. The way they did the draw and how they put the seeds, that's something we have to complain about. I feel we made it a little bit too easy for the USTA.

53:44Catherine Whitaker:They didn't get hurt as much as I think they should have.

53:48Matt Roberts:So what do you think they should have done? a boycott as in 1973?

53:53Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, well, Nicky Pillich is my Davis Cup captain. He knows all about it. He told me how to do it. As I said, I don't think we should have boycotted the tournament. There's a lot of reasons. Spectators, linesmen, they have nothing to do with it. It's basically a couple of people who make a decision for everyone. And I feel like maybe we should have boycotted Monday and started playing on Tuesday or two o 'clock on Monday. Make them feel very strong about it.

54:23Matt Roberts:Did you suggest that to the ATP? I did. And was it rejected?

54:30Catherine Whitaker:It was. You know, to call off the whole Monday was rejected. They were like, listen, there are many reasons to play. And it might have ended up in a lawsuit from the USTA towards the ATP. And that's not what we want for tennis either.

54:46Matt Roberts:So will this go away, this whole stink? or will this go throughout the entire two weeks? Do you think when we look back at this tournament, is that how people will think about it?

54:56Catherine Whitaker:Well, it depends a lot on you. The more you ask, the more the talk is going to be about it. The less you ask, the less people will talk about it. We should try to forget about it. It happened, we made our point and that's it. The tournament is on its way. The first day, we should concentrate on the tennis. Yes.

55:17Matt Roberts:When you were told that you were seeded, were you aware that that was incorrect under the regulations?

55:25Catherine Whitaker:I was surprised I was seeded. I don't think I deserve to be seeded at this tournament. I mean, I played eight tournaments through the year, one match on hard court. The reasons why the USTA made those different seedings, there were a couple of players where it doesn't make sense the seeding they got. Let's take Boris as an example. Unfortunately, he's not here. He was bumped up one spot. He didn't play one match on hard court this year. Yevgeny won the French Open and was bumped down, no matter if it's a different surface or not. I have the feeling everything is done here for the American players.

56:05Matt Roberts:Oh, you have that feeling?

56:07Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, sure.

56:12Catherine Whitaker:And now I'm back. Matt is back.

56:18David Law:Michael, Matt, I loved it.

56:20Matt Roberts:Oh God, I'm enjoying this. I haven't really done this before. That is a tough act to follow, David. Or should I say Michael? Because David is now going to inhabit the role of Michael Chang. Ready, David?

56:38David Law:I'm ready.

56:39Matt Roberts:do you think Michael that this is something that the USTA should continue to do that is make the

56:46David Law:seedings themselves I don't feel like they should necessarily have done that I pretty much agree with how the rest of the players feel I think particularly for Evgeny he's an excellent player he's a dangerous player on all surfaces I think obviously winning the French shows how great of a clay court player he is but all of the players know how good of a player he is on hard court That was, I think, the biggest surprise. One of the biggest surprises for all of us. I think the USTA will probably think twice about doing it next year.

57:17Catherine Whitaker:Again, measured. Measured and reasonable.

57:21Matt Roberts:Yeah, I'm expecting similar from Stefan Edberg here. Would anybody like to be Stefan, Matt?

57:26David Law:I'm delighted that I've been asked to be reasoned and measured. It's new.

57:32Matt Roberts:Matt is now going to pivot to be Stefan Edberg. Stefan, what do you think, according to the new wave seeding here at the US Open, what do you think of it not being according to the rankings?

57:45Catherine Whitaker:Well, there's been a lot of talk. It's very unfortunate what's happened here. I feel bad about it. I'm sure they feel bad about it. They did something very wrong in the beginning. They had a redraw. They did that right. If you look at the USTA, they have the right to do their own seedings according to the rules. They did it. It's not that I support it, but I think they did a pretty lousy job. I have to say that. I think we need to look at this tournament as an example and really try to put things right for the future. That's really important because I think we should all forget about it now for two weeks to come here and enjoy the US Open as it is.

58:33Matt Roberts:there speaks a man that got screwed over by both versions of the draw

58:38David Law:yes and by the way him calling it a pretty lousy job is basically every swear word and

58:45Catherine Whitaker:curse word on the side that's as strong as it gets for edberg is that right yeah yeah absolutely

58:52Matt Roberts:big moment now folks because david for one night only for one morning only you're about to be pete sampras yeah i don't get to do

59:04David Law:the slam dunk smash or the running forehand but i do get to pretend to be him in a press conference take it away pete as far as the seeding and all of that stuff i was shocked i was surprised i mean i can accept wimbledon changing seeds particularly because of me he didn't say that uh because of the surface very unique very fast when i heard about the seed change it just opened up a whole can of worms it's their right their tournament they can do what they want i was surprised i think at this point in time we just have to go out and play what happened with the draw and the seeds is over now

59:43Matt Roberts:but you as much as anyone else have been critical of best 14 the atp rankings are based on best 14 Why have a problem with a tournament like this going away from the best 14 and seeding it the way they want to seed it?

1:00:00David Law:For me, it's really the surface. It's hard court. It's a fair surface. The guy that plays in Europe on clay can play well on hard court. I can accept Wimbledon changing the seeds because of the surface. To change it here is something that I really didn't agree with. If there's a surface that changed, it should be grass or maybe clay. A hard-caught surface is a fair surface. Guys from Europe can play on it. So I was surprised.

1:00:30Matt Roberts:I think it's safe to say that Pete Sampras was surprised by the whole turn of events. Shall we find out how the one and only Pamela Howard Shriver reacted to this situation?

1:00:43Catherine Whitaker:Imagine how pleased I was when I saw her on the press conference transcript list

1:00:48Matt Roberts:I mean it turned out it was her final Grand Slam appearance in singles and she was a banker of a quote was Pam so of course she was asked about this Matt Roberts do you feel up to the challenge of inhabiting the role of Pamela Howard Shriver?

1:01:10Catherine Whitaker:I should have just asked her to record this as a voice note shouldn't I? I just inserted it in here It's much more daunting than trying to be Michael Shtick I'll say that

1:01:22Matt Roberts:Well Shtick was really good Shtick's the front runner at the moment I'd say

1:01:26David Law:But also Shtick isn't going to send him a text afterwards to give him a review True Okay

1:01:36Matt Roberts:Pam Pam, do you have any thoughts on the seeding controversy here?

1:01:42Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts. I always have thoughts about things. By the way, what an amazing opening to a line of a press conference. And how true. Nothing has changed. That's why we love Pam. Pam continues. The Grand Slams for a number of years have not approved of the ATP Tour ranking. Both sides have made their feelings known. The Grand Slams have a very difficult time when someone like Edberg a few years ago lost first round in two of the four Grand Slams. But because he played enough tournaments, it didn't affect his ranking. And those Grand Slams were dropped off. If there's anything a Grand Slam chairman hates more than having their tournament not count on a player's record, I'm not sure what it is.

1:02:35Catherine Whitaker:I think the ATP tour, unless they want to continue to have this bad relation, they need to respect the fact that the Grand Slams feel their results deserve to be on somebody's record for 12 months. I think they probably should have, the USTA maybe could have given a little bit more warning. Maybe the surprise factor wasn't to help. Also, the fact that it looked like you have US players being favoured, That was unfortunate, but they have the rights. They're within the rules. It's a shame. Both sides have been very angry at each other for a long time on this computer ranking issue.

1:03:13Matt Roberts:So do you think the US players were favoured or is it just coincidence?

1:03:20Catherine Whitaker:I hope not. Look, Agassi won the Olympics. He won Cincinnati. Who knows what he would have done if he wasn't defaulted from the other tournament. He was the hot player on tour. He's won this tournament before. He's a very good hardcore player. Chang over Muster. I feel badly for Muster. I feel like he's not respected and he should be. That guy has been incredible. That's unfortunate. I didn't answer your question, did I? I think it's understandable that why they would want to put a former champion, someone who plays well on hard courts, last year's runner up. I can see why they would want to move him up.

1:04:01Catherine Whitaker:Wimbledon does this every year, but this is not a grass court, considered a neutral surface, so people have expected the US Open to go by the rankings, but not anymore.

1:04:16David Law:What a great explanation of the ranking system, and how right she is. I mean, now it's, I think, it's best 18 or something like that, because you have to have the Grand Slams on your record, and you have to have the Masters 1000s on your record, which is absolutely right, But it was a substandard ranking system back then.

1:04:38Matt Roberts:Yeah, absolutely. It's not cut and dry. I mean, it's cut and dry that mistakes were made. But there is, you know, there's clearly a debate to be had then and now. David, you've been Sampras. This one might be trickier for you. would you take on the task of being Andre Agassi?

1:05:03David Law:I'll give it a go. Trying to follow his train of thought is different. I mean, Pete's a bit more straightforward, put it that way.

1:05:11Matt Roberts:Yeah, I mean, Agassi is the big outlier here because he sides more with the USTA and took issue with the ATP. Here is quite a long excerpt from his pre-tournament press conference. Andre, because you won this tournament as an unseeded player, is it hard for you to get up in this whole furore about the little adjustments in the rankings and seedings that so many other players are upset about?

1:05:46David Law:I mean, I just try not to get caught up in it at all, really. You have to beat seven guys. I don't worry about really where I'm seeded. I get the better end of the deal, yeah, so to say much more than that might lead one to believe that I just like the fact that it worked out for me. From 9 to 6, ranking versus seeding, by the same token I was a little disappointed with the ATP choosing this as their platform and choosing this as their fight to fight. I mean, Grand Slams have been doing this for years. The ATP has used the US Open for a platform to announce many things, including start of their tour because that's what happened if you remember this is me now uh back in 1990 uh they they had uh the players when they started the atp tour they they started it in the us open car park that was how they launched the atp tour in 1990 and agassiz got the receipts in the first answer i love it so here's andre again so then for them for the usta to make an admitted mistake and for them and for them the ATP to prey upon it try to somehow take advantage of the situation here in their backyard is disappointing I can't be part of that.

1:07:01Matt Roberts:So do you think there's anything wrong with sort of the big picture of this to sort of see you and Sampras the kind of things that Wimbledon does stuff the public might want to see is there anything really wrong with that kind of thing thinking look you could always argue that it's

1:07:19David Law:something that they're doing for the sake of the public for the sake of the tournament whatever you hopefully i'll try to give the benefit of the doubt the seedings are based on where they think i should be seeded i think the atp tour ranking is your best 14 so if you pile up one half of the year with great results it might not be reflective of how you're playing this year really there's an argument on both sides and the grand slams have been around a lot longer than the ATP. I tend to just go out there and play my tennis.

1:07:51Matt Roberts:Do you have some sympathy for Kefelnikov in a situation he felt he was in?

1:07:57David Law:I mean, in one sense, I feel bad for you, Kenny. I mean, they did not get on, by the way. I think he's, and more of that later, I think he's, I personally feel like he's a better player than seven in the world no question and he should be seeded higher than maybe seven where i think he was going to be seeded hopefully his pull out is because he's injured well it wasn't i certainly would not want to think that he would hurt himself like this to make some kind of point i know he's young and all but i think he's a talented enough player to come in here and possibly do real well. I don't understand, really, when you talk about only having a few years in this game to miss out on an opportunity to play in the Open.

1:08:45David Law:It's not something that I would really choose for myself, albeit he boycotted Wimbledon for several years because he didn't like him wearing white clothing, Andre.

1:08:55Catherine Whitaker:That's David again. Yes.

1:09:00David Law:Literally missed about four Wimbledons because he wasn't going to wear the clothes they told him to.

1:09:11Matt Roberts:I'm asking Andre now, I'm not asking David, although I am quite keen for more of David's thoughts, but we'll stick with Andre for a moment. So, Andre, do you feel it's unfair for players to bring out your name in this issue rather than discuss what was done by the USTA, the seedings and the draws? seems like your name has come up a lot with the other players. It's tough.

1:09:36David Law:It happened a lot with me and Muster, for example. If I highlight Muster as an example, it's easy for one to perceive as if my issue is with Muster, when it might not be. The same way if my name comes up in the issue, it might lend one to believe that the issue is about me, when it probably has nothing to do with that. If the issue is about the ranking system and the relevancy of the ATP's ranking system in the Grand Sam tournaments, the ATP is just simply asking for respect. They're asking for something that they're not giving because they're using their backyard to prey upon a mistake that at least the USTA had really the ability to reconsider and admit.

1:10:15David Law:He's really not an ATP guy, is he? No.

1:10:21Matt Roberts:Over 50 players, Andre, attended that press conference yesterday. today do you feel then out of step with the majority of players look six years ago when i

1:10:33David Law:went to bat for the atp i've been down that road they used me to stand up and support and make the tour happen and this is quite interesting actually this is me again uh because i reading hard courts the uh the book by john feinstein and john not an andre agassi fan i can tell you that um you know back in 1990 yeah that's when they formulated the tour and andre was was the biggest star even then he was up and coming but he was the biggest star um anyway i'm back being andre now they asked me to stand up and support and make the tour happen my weight was more than just one player then somehow when it comes to any changes that i disagree with my weight is only one vote I've gone to bat for the ACP and it's kicked me in the ass in more than a few ways.

1:11:25David Law:I'm just thinking about my tennis, to be quite honest.

1:11:29Matt Roberts:So do you think some players get preferential treatment, depending on what country they're from and where the tournament is? Michael Steepe pretty much said that earlier today, as far as the seedings and rankings go.

1:11:42David Law:I did, yeah. Well, look, Michael. Piss up. No. Again, I would hope, I'm being Andre, that the seedings are based on where they think they should be. I mean, it's hard for me to speak from any real, really significant platform, because, like I've heard mentioned, maybe my situation has been the specific example used. I don't want to come across as if I'm somehow defending what they chose to do with me specifically. I mean, do I feel like I can come into this tournament and win it? Yeah, I do. I also feel like my summer has shown that I'm somewhat of a factor. But the issue isn't about really me and what they chose to do with me.

1:12:22David Law:It's about the bigger picture here. Quite honestly, I would hope that the countries give more support to the players that are from that country in the sense of wild cards. You know, you see England do it. You see Paris do it. You see Australia do it. You see the USDA do it. I don't think that anyone should go beyond favouritism to the point where it's unfair. If they do that or not, it's tough for me to think that they do. I feel like the Grand Slams have seeded the way they've wanted to for a long time. I just am still dumbfounded at why all of a sudden the ATP is choosing this fight. One last little pop at the ATP there.

1:13:00Matt Roberts:Yeah, it's pretty clear that he's got his own agenda at play here, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. He must have been unpopular with the other players. You know, must have been frosty locker room.

1:13:21David Law:Yeah, I think he was an in and out guy, really. I think he had his own, I mean, again, referring back to John Feinstein's book, he had his own huge entourage. He didn't need any other players, really.

1:13:35Matt Roberts:Right. So, what ended up happening in the actual tournament? Well, the top seed won the title. Beat Sampras, of course. But he did beat the second seed, Michael Chang, in the final. Now, Michael Chang was involved in some of the seeding controversy. Sampras' run is best remembered by David and others for his epic quarterfinal win over Alex Correcha. 7-6, 5-7, 5-7, 6-4, 7-6. He was suffering from a stomach bug. He vomited on the court. He saved match point. I imagine this lives long in the David Law memory.

1:14:21David Law:Oh, absolutely. I mean, comparison points would be some of the situations we've seen Novak Djokovic in when he's in a terrible state, and you think he's about to have to retire. Similarly, things used to get said about Sampras. How can he look as ill as that and then hit a running forehand like a panther across court and then go and win? How can those two things happen at the same time? But look, he was in a terrible state. I mean, he was vomiting in the back of the court. He looked so ill. um and uh yeah i i remember reading his press comments about it uh and and he i think he said it was something to do with i think he tried to drink some some coke to sort of settle himself down and and it really backfired um and uh i think he ended up really dehydrated um and and and and And yeah, poor old Karecha.

1:15:25David Law:He's remembered for that match more than anything else.

1:15:28Matt Roberts:It is a stomach settler, isn't it? Coke is the only time I ever drink Coke. And I've got a dodgy tummy. Anyway, we move on. Other notable events from the tournament, as we mentioned, Stefan Edberg won his first round, well, his second dodgy first round draw against Richard Krycek. Straight sets for Ed Berg over reigning Wimbledon champion Krycek. He then beat Henman in round four, as David remembers, and then eventually lost to Goran Ivanovic in the quarterfinals. The sixth seed, Andre Agassi, beat third seed, Muster, in the quarterfinals, and then he lost to Chang in the semis. I'm guessing you remember that, David?

1:16:15Oh, yeah.

1:16:15David Law:And actually, by the way, when I read Washington's transcript, and I then interviewed Washington for the Wimbledon show, I asked him about this as well. And what was apparent is hardly anybody could remember this story. Like, Washington vaguely remembered it happening. I messaged Goran when I heard about his seeding being moved, and he was very vague on it, and he just said to me, ask Evgeny. So I did, and obviously that worked out. well um but then yeah i guess he comes into this tournament he's had this incredible year the year before um and you know he's won the olympics he's expected to meet uh sampras in the final um and he just he just was all over the place he was just firing unforced errors all over the place as i

1:17:08Matt Roberts:recall it was the final year of uh louis armstrong stadium being the main court of course arthur Rush Stadium was opened the following year, 1997. And what else was introduced in 1997? Seedings being done according to the rankings.

1:17:29Matt Roberts:Will there ever be another redraw, Matt? Will you get to see one in your lifetime?

1:17:36Catherine Whitaker:I sure hope so.

1:17:42Catherine Whitaker:I mean, it's fun. god yeah i could imagine like i feel like now like the redraw happened because the tech goes wrong you know what i mean like it's not going to be something to be as fun as this is it but it would still be like an interesting sliding doors yes we almost had one when when the wimbledon

1:18:06David Law:draw was going wrong didn't we and they got they put somebody in the wrong bit yes yeah but i think

1:18:12Matt Roberts:The drawer itself actually didn't go wrong. It was a display issue. Am I remembering that right? Yeah, I think what happened is the display was behind or something,

1:18:28Catherine Whitaker:so what was being shown on screen was not what was being said out loud and it all sounded a bit wrong and looked like it had gone wrong. But what's his name? Is it something Evans? Phil Evans? Have I made that up?

1:18:43Matt Roberts:I think he is Phil because David said, didn't you say all right, Phil? I didn't say all right, Phil. To a bloke who has no idea who you are.

1:18:52David Law:You didn't say all right, Phil. No, I just said you've got the best job in the world.

1:18:57Matt Roberts:Oh, yeah, that's it.

1:19:00Catherine Whitaker:Anyway, he stepped in. Next year it'll be all right, Phil.

1:19:03Matt Roberts:Now you've laid that groundwork. Yes, he did step in, didn't he? and it was all very reassuring. You know, it was like an airline pilot when you hear a dodgy noise, they come over and go, everything's fine.

1:19:19Catherine Whitaker:Yeah.

1:19:21Matt Roberts:God, this has been fun, hasn't it? Should we hear another couple of minutes of Evgeny Kafelnikov to round out the show?

1:19:30David Law:Yeah, because we could have done with him today, couldn't we? And all the stuff that goes on these days.

1:19:37Matt Roberts:Well, we've got Medvedev.

1:19:41David Law:He ain't pulling out there, is he?

1:19:44Matt Roberts:True. Here is Evgeny.

1:19:50David Law:Would you like to see, or would you have liked to see, players come together a little bit more and make a stand collectively? Well, it depends on what issue. You know, it's tennis individual sport and it doesn't look like, from what I'm seeing as of late, that they will come to some sort of union agreement. Because, you know, Grand Slam are paying, I think, more than in terms of prize money, more than we ever got paid in previous years. So I just don't see that they will stand up together. You know, there's so many... It's difficult. Yeah, so many individuals who think their priority, because they just don't find one priority that they can unify them, you know what I mean?

1:20:45David Law:Yeah, yeah. I was speaking to Andy Murray at the end of last year and he was saying something similar, that when you say what is it the players want, all the players want different things. Exactly. So there is not one such a thing that they are standing together. For example, you know, they're not saying, you know, we should get something about, you know, pension funds. You know, make some, put some more money in the pension fund that we could be, you know, protected and safe when we all retired and the guys don't have to struggle after they, you know, dedicated their life on the tour for so many years.

1:21:21You know what I mean? Some cause has to be very, very important. that we former players would understand. But now what I see what's happening is just, you know, makes no sense to me what they're trying to accomplish.

1:21:39David Law:Because you don't think they can get it or because you don't think that it's a worthwhile cause, i.e. they're getting enough as it is? Why do you say that? Well, I think it's a bit of both. I think it's just not enough. they're not going to be again standing as one unit and like I said they have to find really important cause which is which would make would make them really legit and straightforward. It's quite interesting you know that I mean I heard Sabalenka say a month or two ago you know maybe we might need to boycott one day. And what are they going to accomplish by boycotting? Nothing. They're not going to accomplish anything by boycotting.

1:22:32There would be some players who are going to win the titles, and then what? What are they going to accomplish? Nothing, to be honest. I think the tennis itself is bigger than all boycotts, and bigger than all the superstars on the women's or men's tour. That's just my opinion. I mean, I do disagree with him on that. I think a boycott from the biggest names in the sport would have impact.

1:23:06Matt Roberts:I just don't think they ever would in the way that Evgeny actually did put his money where his mouth was. I mean, he was famously, David, a player that really cared about money and talked about that, didn't he? And got a lot of criticism for that. He was like, I'm here to make as much money as I possibly can. And yet he was prepared to sacrifice it to make a stand. And not just in this instance. Over the draw in 1996, he had a track record of it.

1:23:38David Law:Oh, yeah. He was a real disruptor. and we're talking in the current day about the players striving for a greater share of revenue of what the Grand Sams make um well Evgeny was talking about that 25 years ago in in 2001 at the Australian Open he came into that tournament as um as a finalist the year before he'd won it the year before that so he's one of the biggest names in the sport and he was he was a hugely keen golfer And in fact, when I got to speak to him a couple of days ago, he was on the golf course. He was actually walking around the golf course talking to me.

1:24:17Matt Roberts:I think he, didn't he play some pro events?

1:24:20David Law:Yeah, yeah, he did. He tried to go pro when he stopped tennis.

1:24:24Matt Roberts:I think he also tried to go pro as a poker player.

1:24:27David Law:Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you know, he's obviously somebody, no money worries, plenty of time on his hands. And he put it into trying to become as good at these sports as he could. and he still does um but you know he would always use golf as his example of why he felt tennis wasn't being respectful to the players and wasn't giving them their fair share of what they made and he was very vocal about this at the australian open um which as we've seen here then leads to all the other players being asked what they think and i mentioned that he and agassi didn't always see eye to eye and agassi comes into the the press conference room and those two had met in the years uh final the year before of the australian open and agassi comes in gets asked about evgeny's comments about wanting a greater percent of prize money agassi says he should take his prize money when he's done here and go buy himself some perspective no um he says i'd be hard pressed ever to spend time with the person who thinks that making hundreds of thousands of dollars is not enough money um so the pile on starts massive headlines you know obviously you have genies then asked about what andre said and in we didn't hear it in the chat just just here because it would have seemed to have been out of context but actually you've genie 25 years on said i'm still upset about what he said about me you know i think he should i think that was wrong of him to say that I was standing up for the players, for what I think we deserved.

1:26:07David Law:And he said something about me that was really wrong. And Sampras was asked and he said, look, Evgeny plays every week, so I think we know what he likes. But look, so did Pete. He might have done it a different way, but at least Kefelnikov was honest about it. He wasn't pretending that he wasn't interested in the movie.

1:26:33Matt Roberts:That's a tough moral high ground for any of them to try and take, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely.

1:26:39David Law:That he likes money.

1:26:41Matt Roberts:It's a great soundbite from Agassi.

1:26:43David Law:You can imagine everybody loved it. Everybody's laughing in the press room. It's a great line than the way he would have delivered it. He should take his money and go and buy some perspective. It's a good line. We heard him deliver it, David.

1:26:56Catherine Whitaker:You did a great impersonation.

1:26:59David Law:But, you know, yeah, that bothers the Evgeny to this day.

1:27:08Matt Roberts:That's fascinating. Have we done a Kefelnikov relived?

1:27:14David Law:No, not his whole career. I mean, he's a character. Yeah.

1:27:22Matt Roberts:We'll put that on the long list, David. You're probably not desperate to go through the rigmarole of trying to track down Yevgeny Kafelnikov again. Yeah, I mean, this one took me a month.

1:27:34David Law:And honestly, I did go five unanswered messages. I said he's usually very good with me, and he is. But then he just sort of goes missing. And then I just wrote one, I just wrote, Yevgeny! Exclamation mark on one day. And he just replied then. And then two days ago, out of the blue, I said, look, my deadline's tomorrow, right? Otherwise, I can't do it. And he just said, oh, I'm on the golf course. Can we do it now? And I'm literally about to go out the house with the family. Right, you guys go ahead. I'll call Yevgeny and I'll catch you up. But anyway, he made it worth my while. So thank you to Yevgeny.

1:28:15David Law:Well, your efforts are very much appreciated, David.

1:28:19Matt Roberts:Thank you to Evgenica Falnikov, to Michael Shtick also for appearing on today's show, to Pam Shriver, to Andre Agassi, to Pete Sampras.

1:28:29David Law:Got some reach, haven't we?

1:28:32Catherine Whitaker:This is a new technique for us. We can unlock several potential future interviews by just being them ourselves.

1:28:39Matt Roberts:It's like our own version of AI, isn't it? I think the Oscar goes to Michael Shtick for today. I think, you know, asking for background information about the character, you know, and his motivations. I think that was really good thespy work. Thank you. And the little reprisal of the role later in the little cameo later in the play. All excellent stuff. I've loved this show.

1:29:16Catherine Whitaker:Me too.

1:29:17Matt Roberts:I want drawers to go wrong now. I want there to be things I want from a drawer, a marching band and a cock-up. Things Matt wants from a drawer, a velvet pouch. What none of us wants from a drawer, a PDF that lands in our inbox. Okay, tennis authorities, take notes. Matt fantastic work on today's show thank you to the Wimbledon Library as always to ASAP for the transcripts that's a tremendous resource isn't it treasure trove yes because

1:30:00Catherine Whitaker:absolutely one of the one of the terrible things that's happened recently is the SI vault is is no more so you can't access that anymore so we we very much need things like the ASAP transcripts to still be there and thankfully they are.

1:30:17Matt Roberts:Yeah, absolutely. So thank you to them. Thank you to you, David, and to Evgenika Falnikov. It's been a heck of a show. I've loved it so much. What a find. And Svetlana, we will get to you.

1:30:32Catherine Whitaker:We're coming for you. Yeah.

1:30:35Matt Roberts:We are coming for you and we are coming for the US Open. If you're listening to this on the day it comes out, Matt is probably on a plane. right now. David will be boarding a plane tomorrow. I'm already in the US. So things are cooking, folks. And we have about 400 podcasts coming your way over the next three weeks. And we cannot wait. We've got a whole Grand Slam and a trip to Rhode Island to fit in somehow. It's going to be, it's going to be a roller coaster, but it's going to be a fun one. Thank you all for being friends of the Tennis Podcast. We hope you've enjoyed this show and we will speak to you very soon.