BONUS: What to do about doubles?

0:10Hello friends and welcome to the Tennis Podcast and our second Friends live show in five days, I think it is. Since getting back from holiday, we are working David hard. We had a Q &A show last Friday and tonight is a show that we've kind of had on the long list for a very long time and came onto the shortlist, I think, during Wimbledon when some big news broke about proposed changes by the ATP Tour to the doubles game that caused a big stir in the sport, a lot of reaction and sparked a lot of debate. and we've wanted to have that debate and generally kick around the concept of what to do about doubles in tennis.

1:01And who better to do that with than your friend and mine. She's big with dads. My dad is here tonight, Pam. Well, no, not joining us on the show. He's watching us live. It is your friend and mine, Pamela Howard-Schriver, live from L.A. How are you doing, Pam? Hey, I'm great. I'm great. I'm so looking forward to this discussion, this show. And, you know, I feel much more relaxed. I don't have to try and enter the chat. I'm here. No tech required tonight, although David's already done quite a lot of... David's had just the best tech day ever. Tech problem solving left, right and centre. That's correct.

1:44and thing is Pam it was your success at entering the chat during Wimbledon that made us realize we needed to do this show with you now because you were like I want to talk doubles with you oh I forgot about that that's when I was at the gym it was either you or someone in the chat imitating you and we've roped you in regardless but I think it was you yeah well we really appreciate you being here, Pam. 22 major doubles titles gives you, well, far more credibility on the matter than any of us three. We'll throw our two cents in, but we're very, very grateful to have you contributing to the debate tonight.

2:25I feel like I should probably kick off with just running through what those proposed changes are by the ATP that broke during Wimbledon. And to be clear, these are just changes proposed by the ATP. And whether this is just a men's doubles debate or a tennis doubles debate in general is something that we will come on to talk about. But it's kind of the reason that we're here tonight, these proposed changes. So what was proposed? There was a meeting at Wimbledon and the ATP have suggested that there should be only 16 teams competing at ATP 1000 events and eight at the smaller tournaments on the men's tour.

3:06the percentage of prize money devoted to doubles players could potentially fall from 20 % of the total which is where it currently stands to 10 % with the money with that saving redistributed to singles players. There are concerns that the current size of doubles events puts greater strain on player facilities at tournaments they say. An ATP spokesperson said we are assessing the doubles product draw sizes and player compensation distribution with the aim of creating a more sustainable long-term model while maintaining doubles important role on the tour in terms of the women's game and this is reporting from bbc sport they were told by the wta tour that the women's governing body has no plans to change their doubles events and the proposals here do not affect the grand slam tournaments i'm i'm going to ask each of you what your reactions were to these proposals and where obviously the debate is going to wide it out very broadly from here.

4:12But just on these proposals, how did you feel when they came out? Pam, let's start with you. Well, I think given the trajectory of doubles really since 1968, Open Tennis, when prize money was decided and doubles was already less than singles in importance with money and seeing how through the decades fewer and fewer of the top players especially on the men's side but also on the women's side have chosen not to play doubles because the sport has really focused a lot on the singles especially I'll tell you even more at the tour level than I'd say at the major at the four majors. And whether it's shortening the format, they've tried many different ways to have doubles be so that singles players were still interested in playing, except for special circumstances like Indian Wells, it's not happening.

5:06So I think it's doubles should no longer be in the ATP tour. And I think it's actually a great opportunity, which I'll get into discussing later in the show. But it's honestly of no surprise to me, especially when you think about the business model and how tight margins are for tournaments at say the 250 500 level uh to make money um i'm i'm i'm not surprised at all because how many people come through the gates and spend money how many sponsors do sponsorships how many television rights are because of doubles next to zero at the tour level so so regardless of the specifics of this proposal you agree that something needs to be done yes drastic change is required do you agree with that david yes i do because i don't think the status quo is is successful really i think it i think it doubles plays a role in in the sports for tournaments in terms of filling certain days where there's not as much going on and certainly at the grand slam you get this real feel when you get a few rounds in that crikey doubles is making the grounds pass worthwhile there are parts of the sport where I think doubles is the most entertaining vehicle of the lot and that would typically be in team events like Davis Cup or the Olympics or the WTA equivalent the village Inking Cup those sort of events when doubles is front and center in it and and especially when you get singles players at it but i think it i think it look since i joined the atp in 1998 i i've certainly been involved in conversations like this what do we do about doubles and there's been all sorts of um versions of plans marketing ideas people brought in as doubles kind of uh specific marketing specialists and things like that.

7:14Have you heard any good ideas from any of them? Have you heard any that have made you go, how long? Look, there's one or two that I think are good ideas that just feel now completely unworkable. I mean, I do always remember interviewing, I think back in the very early stages of the podcast, actually, I went and interviewed the Bryan brothers in London at the O2. And I said, what do you think the problem of doubles is in terms of like, maximizing it and they just said lack of tv time they just feel like they don't get given a fair shake when it comes to being on tv and i think that that is right i think court scheduling and so forth but there is a reason for those things you know that i do feel like it's not promoted enough but i also feel like for whatever reason it's not attractive enough and in terms of my my view on it is if you want to make people watch it it needs to be far more like it was in pam's day where all the players played both singles and doubles and you know you talked i talked to mark woodford the other week at wimbledon and he just said look i was not a double specialist i was a tennis player and i played both and i just feel like the specialization has just turned people off would you have had the same reaction pam or do you have the same reaction to would you have you always been keen to if you've ever been called a double specialist do you take that as a compliment do you bristle at that are you sort of gently keen to point out well I I bristle at it a lot because I got three in the world I was in the top 10 in the world for in singles for you know eight straight years and won 21 tour titles and got to singles many many semis and won finals in singles.

9:07So the only thing I didn't do in singles was win a major. But I understand my doubles record is so much better than I once, you know, Martina and I won 79 titles alone. I won over a hundred doubles titles. So I can certainly understand where occasionally, and I, I accept it and I'm, I'm actually proud. I mean, doubles is the reason I got in the International Tennis Hall of Fame. So I'm proud that I embraced and loved doubles. But I just think in this era of how the game is played physically, and especially over five sets, it's not practical to think that top players are going to play both. And therefore, given what you've just said there, and what David's just said, are we talking about just men's doubles here?

10:00Like, is women's doubles fine? Like, would we be here having this debate if we were just talking about women's tennis? Matt, as a men's doubles fan, where do you stand on this? Yeah, I'm in a tough spot in this show. I've made my position on watching current men's doubles most of the time pretty clear. um no i think that that puts you i mean we'll come on to that that's interesting in itself hang on david i've got a plan here david sorry i've got so many questions i'm trying to not i'm trying to keep this train on the tracks my issue with the proposals is i don't really see how it's solving a problem of doubles i i think mostly these proposals are an attempt to get more money to singles players and that's that's potentially fine it's just that you are therefore just eliminating the careers of a lot of doubles players rather than actually attempting to make doubles better or more watched or more promoted I don't really see how these proposals are doing anything other than just cutting off a way into the sport for certain people and that might be what tennis decides it wants to do and for the ATP as Pam's hinting at there to focus just much more on singles but I do think there needs to be an alternative for the doubles players if they're going to go down this route because I as much as I don't really watch men's doubles I do see it as part of the rich tapestry that tennis has to offer and I think David's point about it being an important part of the order of plays at these two-week events, the slams, but also now the Masters 1000s, I think you need some doubles to be happening on the courts for people who are showing up and going as ticket holders in the second week of those tournaments when there's not that many singles matches happening.

12:12Otherwise, you're just massively reducing the amount of offering for the people on the grounds going to those tournaments. And as much as I don't think doubles has this huge market for your general casual sports fans, I do think there are, you know, devoted tennis fans who really do like watching doubles up close and in person. And I see these proposals as really taking some of those matches away from fans going on site at the end and not really doing that much to actually, you know, make doubles better or provide an alternative for those doubles players. It just seems like a way to get some more money to the singles players.

13:02Yeah, and that feeds into Pam's point about this is the ATP is a singles tour and they are serving the singles players. Just before we drill down deeper into that, Pam and David, this question, what to do about doubles? Do we mean what to do about men's doubles? Is this a classic case of sort of men's tennis being treated as default and therefore a problem with men's tennis is a problem with tennis? You know, a bit like when we introduced the deciding set tie breaks, like women didn't need deciding set tie breaks, but because they were being introduced to men, it was like, this is what tennis is doing now.

13:41Like does, does women's doubles have a problem? Like it has far more representation from the top players. Okay. Not all top players are playing regular doubles, but there's, there's a decent number of names that play a good amount of doubles at slams and at tour level. It's a watchable product. Things could be done better, but it's in very different shape to men's doubles. Pam? Yes, I think it is, but I think it's trending in the wrong direction as far as how many opportunities do we see top players. And I actually think on the women's tour, the regular tour events are even tighter margin, the 250s and the 500s.

14:23And I'm sure those tournaments would love to be able to trim some services and some bottom line. And I actually feel that when I go into my thought on how doubles can be highlighted in a much better way, I think it would be better if it was a co-ed property, a co-ed league. and and by the way i'm going to rename the atp the uh amstp which is the association of men's singles tennis players because that's really what they are cosine pam well that's and that's a very good point the way i mean the way men's tennis talks about itself as though it is the only tennis goes right down to the fact that But it is called the ATP.

15:11You are quite right, the Association of Tennis Professionals. Personally, just as an aside, I like the deciding set tie break for both men's and women's tennis. I don't have any issue with that. I understand the point. I agree, but it was introduced to solve a problem in men's tennis. But I think it is improved through tennis as well. It wasn't solving any issue in women's tennis. Well, I think it's improved today. But it was introduced because of men. yeah and i also think at the majors i do think both sides benefit by having the same rules same format yeah except of course they don't at the moment because it's best of five at men's tennis in certainly in the singles and i think that increasingly that that is coming into focus and making you feel like not sure this is certainly not sustainable physically given the way things are going um i don't want to be school teacher about this but somebody needs to put their phone on flight mode yeah i my phone's turned off i'm hearing it too don't make me point fingers folks yeah i'm afraid mine wasn't on flight mode oh it was the tech guy was it uh yes it could have been i had to turn it on to to talk pam through her tech so i'm gonna just you know call that a draw um apologies no i mean what was the question again i've forgotten the question was so long ago uh it was about men's men's and women's it are we is the question here what to do about men's doubles i mean we've meandered since then but that was the question it is certainly more that i think that you know there are there are a number quite a number of women who are able to play doubles And I think that that makes it a better product, women's singles players.

17:03And I think, frankly, it is a much better watch, women's doubles, than men's doubles. But I still think we have a big problem with how much of it is on TV and how it is scheduled. I don't think those things are enough. So I think we have a problem with both. We just have a bigger one with men's tennis. I agree but just staying on the gender divide for a moment if men's has the bigger problem here is the problem ever going to be solvable while men are playing best of five sets at majors okay they're not doing that at tour level but unless you know the tennis is increasingly major focused so if the top players aren't going to play doubles at majors they'll be less incentivized to play play doubles at at tall level because it's not building building up to any any majors ultimately is are any proposals about men's doubles are they rearranging the deck chairs on the titanic so long as men play best of five sets pam you're nodding yes a hundred percent i've thought a lot about, you know, why from the start open tennis has it trended in this way?

18:18And three out of five sets is a big reason why men chose a long time ago, starting maybe in the Borg era to not play both. It's more possible with two out of three, but that's, you know, we can only take on so much. and I feel actually that doubles at the majors is reasonably strong, but it's the doubles at the tour level that's not. And any proposal going forward, any new format or new league or property that is formed for this opportunity needs to have the four majors in their structure for sure, but just not have all these tour of eight singles events that don't want doubles. Go to places that want you.

19:12And I think that can happen because I do think doubles, and I do think there's some things that men's doubles could do that would make it better viewing. So you think there are some destinations and markets in the world that are a far richer seam for doubles than others. A hundred percent. And they should focus on exploiting those rather than trying to grow a market in new places. Well, I think there are really rich tennis cities, towns, markets that don't have ATP or WTA tour events that would be unbelievable and embrace a doubles professional doubles event. But as I, as I totally believe going forward, that doubles players need to have a totally different job description than singles players, that it needs to be much more community oriented, much more grassroots doubles.

20:16Like how do you promote doubles in the town? How do you make the town of better doubles players you can do so much fun creative stuff if these athletes are willing to you know sure work on their craft but work on their craft is one of like three or four parts of their job and then i think i think it'd be really cool therefore pan with those proposals do you think i mean most people with their debate about doubles it centers around a sort of assumption that the thing the best thing that could possibly happen to doubles is to get more star singles players playing it do you think that's that's a dead end correct doubles should should focus on on its strengths what it can do and almost go in the opposite direction and then develop their stars that are already playing like these guys are great stories great personalities terrific tennis players they're not they're not good at singles most of them but they're unbelievable.

21:18I see the drill. I see what they do to drill and to be as quick as they can up at net. It's unbelievable that how, when you see a double specialist workout, I'm fascinated by it. And I think, you know, I think, I think they're really skilled. It's just that the eyes of the traditional tennis born in 1968 left them a long time ago. So create create a new property, a new league that is good for 2026, looking ahead over the coming decades, take in media, new media, figure out innovation, figure out some rule changes that make doubles more interesting. I just think to try to fit into the ATP and whatever Gal Denzi, I was trying to look up what his doubles record is, try and remember what, like, does he have any sympathetic year to doubles or was he kind of like a so-so singles players that gave up doubles not sure singles record was that great it was terrible it was terrible but don't does he have a record his administration singles and doubles record all shite don't try to partner with who doesn't want to partner with you right go find sponsors and partners like honestly the skills that doubles players have to communicate and to be great partners.

22:38Just take those two skills, great communicators, great partners. Go find me corporate sponsors that find that in the pillar of their business. Great communication, great partners. And oh my goodness, I just feel like they're barking up the wrong tree. But I do think some of this, like Henry Patton, I was listening to some of his interviews since, and I kind of was like, I'm sympathetic to him, but also I feel like Like he's been, his brain, they all need to shift. They need a mindset shift.

23:12This is fascinating, Pam. I've never heard this proposed before. I just thought of it. It's a really interesting thing. But David, it makes me think a little bit of the Champions Tour. The Champions Tour used to go to places where there was a huge appetite for tennis, but they just didn't have the clout to get an ATP or a WTA event. but they knew there were people that wanted to come and watch tennis. They knew there were corporate sponsors that wanted to invest in tennis and more specifically invest in, you know, Champions Tour was more about the clinics and the corporate VIP visits and all the fluffy stuff around the edges.

23:52Yeah, they, you know, they had a hit and giggle on the court. John McEnroe didn't do any giggling, but, you know, that's a really interesting concept from Pam there. Matt, David, what are your reactions to it? Yeah, it is an interesting concept. I think one of the issues we had with the Champions Tour is that players were already struggling a bit physically. They were getting older. They only had a certain lifespan of being able to do what they were doing, Whereas in the golf, they could kind of, you know, a senior tour could carry on for decades. And that was a really going concern. They did a great job of marketing and packaging that.

24:36I do find this fascinating because what you've just described about Henry Patton poem is something that I feel like I would need to do is slightly rewire my brain. Because you do end up just seeing it through the lens of what it's always been. And my first instinct is what you need to do is make the ranking systems compulsory for doubles as well as singles. And, you know, you have to play them both and that way you could get singles players. But that's a pipe dream. That is never going to happen. You know, as much as I think that that might be a good idea. And also there's such a chasm now between doubles and singles players in that doubles players just can't play singles now to a level that would be even doable, I don't think, the vast majority.

25:24Whereas, you know, decades ago that people were more rounded tennis players who could play both. So Pam's idea is really interesting in that regard. I feel like you'd need an incredible innovator and entrepreneur who who was prepared to drive it just. Yeah. And who had that understanding of those markets that you talk about. You'd have to establish a circuit and and go to markets where people really did want it. You know, that's the that's the issue. So often you go into places where tournament directors are a bit like, oh, God, yeah, we've got to fit the doubles in. we've got to get this doubles match on and stuff like that, and I've heard the conversations behind the scenes, you know and there's so much tennis already that the fans don't have enough bandwidth anymore sometimes and the doubles just get shunted out in an empty stadium the only thing is, it's like, how do you market this stand-alone product and make these players known how do you get a TV network interested in them or do you not bother with traditional tv and you say okay we're going to create a streaming product um you know this this i think the problem is that the players that have to separate themselves from this idea of we need to get paid x y and z and they'd have to sort of almost say no no we're going to make our product make us money yeah and i and i think the the the issue of marketing is a huge one uh that i want to come on to but it kind of is getting into the the debate about marketing kind of assumes that there's no issue with the product it's just about what we do with the product um don't want to throw you under the bus here matt i think it's a completely valid view to have and i look i'm i'm with you on it but like in your view that there is an issue with the product of men's doubles right not an issue but like not all products are equal and men's doubles very often isn't that great to watch that let's be honest about it even even even give it equal marketing throw a bunch of money at it it's not Not necessarily.

27:46Yeah. Yeah. Like there's definitely going to be people out there who disagree with this and that's fine. But I do think personally, I find most of the time men's doubles a tough watch just from a tennis point of view. It doesn't give me what I'm looking for a lot of the time when I want to tune into a tennis match. And I will even say that some of the great Davis Cup matches that I've watched in doubles, I'm into those because of the stakes and the scenario and the drama. And I can get into it because of that. Take those stakes away and sometimes I will just stick a singles tennis match on that doesn't mean all that much.

28:36and I'm absolutely gripped because I love the product, the way they move, the spins they have, the rallies that happen. I just find it a fascinating watch. I can basically tune into any singles tennis match and like, I'm in. This is great. Men's doubles, I find quite dull a lot of the time. It's a big serve. And if you can't make the return, the volley at the neck just puts it away. And it's just, I just think it's less of a good watch a lot of the time. Clay helps. And I think there are maybe some elements you could do with trialing one serve. I'd be interested to see it. Things like this, I think, could help improve the actual product of men's doubles.

29:22The other thing that really bothers me about the way doubles is currently set up is you can go on the ATP website and go on the rankings and look at doubles and you get a list of single names and their ranking. Now, obviously, the doubles race is done with teams. I just think it's a really, I think it's really hard to follow the plot line of doubles when teams are constantly changing. I think in any kind of doubles reform, we need set teams and set chemistry and partnerships. The doubles teams that I've been most into in my lifetime watching tennis, obviously more, you know, which is more recent, I've been drawn to those teams that have stayed together.

30:10Your Air Bear and Mahou, your Kwechikova and Sinyakova at the start of their careers, your Bryan brothers. These are the teams I'm drawn to because it's a team. I find it really annoying when someone is playing with someone one week and playing with someone the next week. That doesn't seem like doubles to me. That just seems like tennis players who just need to play somewhere. And it's just really hard to follow the narrative through. So I think any sort of reform needs to have it where it's done by teams. You are teamed up for this period of time and we go from there. Okay, so since you've brought that up, and I think it's a great point, maybe let's go down the route of like, there's kind of two things we can do.

30:59There's the massive, big existential, like throw the whole thing up in the air and, you know, set up a new tour and there's all of that. But there's also smaller picture stuff that we can debate kind of what would you do with it within its current framework to make it better? one serve in men's doubles. I want to go next. Team rankings. Let's throw around some kind of small scale proposals of what would make doubles better. And then we'll get back to the big picture existential stuff and the whole, the marketing bit of it all. Pam, you're doing that thing where you put us all to shame and you make notes, Pam.

31:43I do. Well, I do because otherwise I forget. You guys aren't in the 60 and over division yet. Okay, so on reform, besides considering the one serve, which I want to be open to and consider, I want formations and men's doubles, everyone back through the first four shots. Ooh. Okay. Because that would increase the rally length unbelievably well. It would be fun. It's a little bit of like how Dingles is kind of interesting and, but, and, and a little bit of pickleball, like with the kitchen, but, but limiting that one shot, two shot rally that gets so boring. If you had a rule where you had to stay back, um, for a certain amount of time and then work your way in and, and the chaos of that transition would be a blast to watch.

32:40Yeah. And the strategy. So that would be. I'm in. All right. so now it's David's turn I do like that can we all agree to it being mandatory for teams to play together for a year to commit to play together with injury exceptions, mental health exceptions, of course they would need to figure that out base level rule you're a team for the season would we all agree to that and names on the back yes to team for a season what about sorry David go ahead no I think that that is really important I feel like that identity cheering like Matt and I have got into Stefani and Dabrowski this year because we both individually like one or other of those players so they're our team right we've made them our team but that is really quite rare I mean and we are only sort of we're not even a year in but it's it's really quite rare that you can sort of get enough continuity to say i'm a such and such fan and but back in the day you could have said i'm a woody's fan or i'm a shriver and never a little over fan because you knew that you were getting that so i think if you did have that window you're far more likely to get that and this is probably going to set the catch amongst the pigeons if you mandate teams being of the same nationality i know it opens up other cans of worms but in terms of interest in a team sport being able to sport a team from your country it would it would unquestionably help the marketing and interest levels perspective it it causes other problems and it all it feels a bit sort of brexit to me but But I mean, those are the rules in figure skating.

34:40And it does. Who does Iala partner with? I was just thinking that. Right. Okay. But so you have this in figure skating and it does, you end up with a situation where, you know, figure skaters change, pairs and dance figure skaters change nationality all the time. Like it's a running joke in figure skating. You don't really know where anybody's from. And that does kind of make a mockery of the whole concept of nationality. and it makes you sort of have big existential questions about what does nationality even mean. But it does work in terms of generating interest. You tune into the Olympics, you know, once every four years.

35:18You watch figure skating once every four years. I've never heard of any of these people, but I know who I'm going to support because that's my team. They're from the UK, so I'll support those ice dancers that are doing a Spice Girls routine, even though I've never heard of them. And to your point, the Olympics, I think Olympic doubles should be a part of this new co, this new league. And to your point, Catherine, I agree. It builds loyalty and interest and fan following. I also want to bring in another reform. I think there needs to be a specific ball for doubles, especially men's doubles, that would also promote rallies.

35:58so in other words it's just a ball and you got to make sure you got to do a study you got to make sure it doesn't hurt arms and it doesn't whatever increase but you got to slow that game you got to slow the doubles game down to make it more viewable on the men's side how do we feel about the nationalities thing Matt is it Pam you're in with that yeah I'm in yeah Matt David uh not for me no not for me I totally see the point you're making and I think it would have those benefits. I'm a bit Nigel Farage. I'm against generally a sort of more nationalism in the world. You can see that. What about if you had one of the divisions in the doubles new co be a country competition, but you also had divisions where you know a ukrainian could play with a person from chinese from china but i think from a selling that product point of view like they would have completely different value from a sales point of view the the nationalistic it it it would be a more saleable product i think definitely whether that's right or wrong i think naturally you get a good number of teams i feel like it's diminishing all national teams generally well always the olympic year you get more and more that pop up with the olympic year but all of those that you mentioned i know david you've mentioned uh stefania dobrowski that this doesn't apply to but all of the ones that you previously mentioned matt as having got into were teams of the same nationality they were but i i could be maybe i'm wrong i think that's a coincidence i think i was into them because they stayed together and went on a journey and look there are a lot of teams at the moment that have stayed together as well as as as people are pointing out in the chat you know like the top 10 in the men's race have all been together for over a year and there is some continuity there um but i i think it should be yeah sort of written in that these teams have got to stay together and that and that feels like a there's a permanence to it rather than oh they could be playing with someone else at any at any given week any other small small picture proposals do we stick with the scoring format at tour level the match tie break sudden death juice i think you could throw it all out there for consideration i think i feel like the doubles players right now their world is shaken and they need to look at all of it and and again with an open mindset with knowing that what's been happening is not working within the current structure framework i would go to the uh labor cup format i would say two full sets said no one ever i think it's i think it's a good format two full sets with proper it was a labor cut games with i think i think sudden i think sudden death deuce is an insult yeah i'm with you players viewers everyone i don't think it serves i think it's a i think it's a false attempt to make the sport more interesting we think oh it's got to be shorter we need something we need something fun i think you're taking away a fundamental element of the sport personally and i would i would shorten the format so do two full sets and then a match tie break would be i agree um we had a fantastic time at the mixed doubles at the us open in the end didn't we we did but i think i would have a better time if it was proper juice that that's the one thing i do feel yeah there's no more time in tennis than like a than a six juice game yes i i know like in the moment i know like we said oh it kind of worked the but the fast four things was that was that first of four games there yeah yeah that really made the thing skip along and i kind of feel like if you were going like if and to me if this might this might work both on the current tour and also in Pam's blueprint of you go out for a day of tennis at the doubles and you see lots and lots of matches quick fun that's what I loved about the mixed doubles I mean obviously seeing all the the stars was a big was a big selling point but I actually really enjoyed how fast moving and kind of all the things that I I kind of value in singles tennis i i actually preferred in the end i preferred the opposite in doubles tennis i think i just enjoyed how fast moving it was so what's your preferred overall format david and do you like pam's uh everyone stays back for the first four shots yeah i do i mean i don't i'm trying to work out whether that would be really difficult to get your head around as a viewer or not like because I think you'd actually lead to brilliant rallies.

41:10Because I do feel like, I mentioned, men's tennis, doubles tennis now, is quite like watching 90s singles tennis where you've got Goran and Krychik and people with a big serve and nobody can middle return well enough. And the funny thing is that Pam's talking about these incredible skills that they have that you see in practices. And I've seen them too and I'm like, wow, this is an amazing watch. It's just that they're almost too good for it to be a good spectacle. They just can't be broken. The server can't be broken. The volleyers can't be broken. So maybe if you did find this way to extend the rallies, whether it is by single serve or whether it is by making them stay back, you'd get all the best bits of what actually separates doubles from singles.

41:56Those sort of rallies, lots of them. And make it fast-paced. You'd just have to make it an amazing day out. It's just can you fill the stadiums in the first place? I kind of feel if you had the right innovator, the right leaders, you could. But God, this sport is slow moving. And fair play, I gave the US Open a hard time when it made that mixed doubles decision initially. And I take my hat off to them. They created an amazing event. It may not have been what I wanted to be on the Royal of Honour necessarily. necessarily and i still kind of feel that i feel like it should have its own separate one of our favorite ever podcast quotes david don't take that from us i still feel like that i still feel like the mixed doubles championship of the us opens role of honor should have stopped after 2024 and a new one with a different title should have started in 2025 that's how i feel about it now because what they created was this fantastic event um and you need some somebody with that kind of determination and degree of get up and go to just say, no, we're doing this.

43:10I know not everybody like it, but we're going to create this thing and make, because we want it to be great. I think I know who the leaders are going to take this opportunity and they're already in place at the USTA. Eric Buderak, who was a double specialist, who is the reason why the mixed doubles happened the way it happened. And Craig Tiley. I feel like, you know, Craig with his knowledge coming from Australia, also from South Africa, where he's born, college tennis, he gets doubles the value of it. And I think that there's certain countries, this new company, this new thing is going to be great for us is one england for sure i think the major i think because all the majors are going to still be in it i think all the lead up you know like i think craig tiley would tell you right away there's four markets in australia that he could never get tournaments to that would love to have a doubles tournament leading into the australian open you know whether it would be you know I don't know if Darwin is a city but there's just certain places that can't have enough tennis going into the Australian.

44:24So I see it all there but it's getting the right leadership, the right entrepreneurial pioneering and let's get it done. And it would require the players Pam to be prepared to have a big picture long term view of the sport and their careers and tennis isn't good at that generally and you know doubles players don't make the money that singles players earn. This isn't like millionaires complaining about a hit to their income. Like I have a certain degree of sympathy with you know them being concerned about their livelihoods and that was sort of quite a dominant theme of the reaction from doubles players to these proposals from from the ATP I'm sure you you've heard a lot of the reactions Henry Patton obviously has been incredibly vocal El Salvador's Marcelo Arevalo he represented doubles players at the meeting that the ATP had during during Mumbledon he said it's just a proposal but it should be a time to give more opportunities to tennis players rather than giving them away.

45:38Bob Bryan said if it passes this will kill the doubles dream for any young players or college players that want to pursue doubles. The pathway will be blocked to come up and make a living. The tour from a financial standpoint it looks like it's the healthiest it's ever been. They should be creating more opportunities for doubles players. Lloyd Glasspool the British player he said they say it's a product issues but when singles players who are known and have been marketed step on the doubles court it is a packed crowd so it's not a product issue is it if you know the players then you will watch them in singles or in doubles and that kind of leads us on to the the whole marketing piece of this and look for me if we look there's absolutely no question as to whether marketing or a lack thereof has played a role in the demise of doubles.