BONUS - Wimbledon Re-Lived 1996: Henmania, The Streaker & Krajicek dethrones Sampras

40:48Unfortunately for the crowd, and it must be said for the luster of these championships, it was not Andre Agassi. Doug Flack, who had come from two sets down to qualify for only his second Wimbledon and fourth Grand Slam event, exposed Agassi to an uncomfortable truth in the sunshine of the graveyard. No amount of talent can compensate for the more gritty virtues of hard work and preparation. Sometimes a wing and a prayer is just not enough. Agassi arrived at Wimbledon woefully short of match practice after playing just four matches in three months, and he was on his way back home. The victim of the player ranked number 281 in the world by Evensong on the first day.

41:36Flack won 2-6, 7-6, 6-4, 7-6 in just over two hours. Imagine that, a four-set match with two tie breaks lasting just over two hours. a victory that owed as much to his own strength of nerve as to Agassi's evident rustiness. Given that this was only Flack's second victory in a Grand Slam event and that his last appearance in England was last February in a satellite tournament at Eastbourne, this was a highly improbable outturning of odds. Before yesterday, Flack's sole claim to fame stemmed from his surname. His brother Ken was twice Wimbledon doubles champion with Robert Seguso, and feistiness clearly runs in his family.

42:20If Agassi felt his mere presence would reduce Flack to a gibbering wreck, he was very quickly disappointed. Flack has not spent most of his year touring the provincial theatres of tennis just to blow his lines on the big stage. Doug Flack said afterwards, I called my mum after the Agassi match and CBS was in her living room. Was that the discourse, David, around Agassi, that he was not as dedicated at that moment in his career as in other moments of career? And he was trying to kind of busk it a bit and he was found out here. 100 percent uh he he went through waves in his career and uh him winning the title in 92 was one of his positive waves he won the 94 us open on a sort of comeback having been in the wilderness from a wrist injury then he pushed that into his real dominant period in 95 when he was getting the better of sampras for the most part and they were the two best players in the world So they were the rivals.

43:27And as much as I supported Sampras in that rivalry and kind of hated, loved to hate Agassi, I was secretly gutted when Agassi lost to Doug Flack. I always remember Agassi wearing a sort of full buttoned up shirt, one of those sort of like, almost like a sort of dress shirt without the collar. And he wore a cap, which you very rarely saw him with at that time, because, you know, this was after the ponytail through the back of it era. This is when he's got no hair, basically, but he's got a cap on. But he had no hair in the ponytail era as well, we now know. So it turned out, yeah. But yes, 96, if you look at 96 and 97, that's when he's sinking in the rankings down to the hundreds and having to start again.

44:18And that's what he did. He just rode these massive waves. I think this is when he and Brooke Shields were sort of breaking up. And yeah, his world was, I don't think, a great one, particularly at that time. And that is probably the only time I heard of Doug Flack before or after.

44:40he'll always have that headline yep if I was Doug Flack I would have that framed and on my wall

44:51yeah and Agassi wasn't the only high seed to lose it's very much the the theme of this men's tournament right it's why a big part of the reason why we ended up with the final we did like there's draw chaos from very early on And then Jim Currier, the sixth seed, was beaten by Jonathan Stark. And Michael Chang, the eighth seed by Albert Costa. It was like a bath on the grass. That's not a grass court match, is it? Chang against Costa. So that's the first round. And you've lost Agassi, Currier, Chang. Big, big names. And then a few rounds later, as David described earlier, Boris Becker comes in as one of the favourites.

45:38He's the Australian Open champion from earlier in the year. And he has to retire against Neville Godwin after, quote, he felt something pop in his wrist. Just a devastating blow. That was on number one court. And a wide serve comes out to his forehand and he hits it. And he just sort of drops his racket immediately. and bear in mind I'd watched him win Queens I think without dropping a set a couple of weeks earlier and looking just fantastic and really looking forward to him maybe playing Sampras in a big final or something like this and he just stood there looking at his wrist it's in the tyre break against Neville Godwin first set he just has to stop and that's that it's a really tough scene Brutal Michael Shtick David do you remember this?

46:30blasted the Wimbledon committee for their seedings, asserting that the elimination of every seed but Todd Martin in the bottom half by the end of round three was down to ignorance, the ignorance of the baseliners on grass and of the All England Club in failing to recognise that fact. The All England Club should look at the draw and how it was made this year. It's a little bit surprising that all the big servers show up in the top half and all the so-called clay quarters, except Boris, show up in the bottom half. They should really think about the way they go about the seeding because it is not good for the tournament.

47:07Look at Krycek, Rosset, even Isobic, Sampras, myself, Pierline, who played quarters last year. All these guys in the top half, it is very sad. And Mark Reason in the Sunday Times agreed with him, saying that since the introduction of computer rankings, the committee has abnegated more and more responsibility. I mean, it is just introducing a subjective element to seedings. It is just a recipe for cases like that, isn't it? And arguments like that. And it's just inviting headaches upon yourself. And yet he's saying that, no, no, we should do that. We should recognise the grass-court ability. We should ignore these rankings.

47:58Yeah, he was saying they're not being subjective enough. Musters leaving because they're not sticking to the rankings. It's amazing. But, yeah, I'm not enormously surprised to hear that Michael Shtick issued a blasting. He was a pretty formidable, moany kind of guy. I really like Michael. I got to know him a lot on BBC Radio. but at my, well it was 96, my first ever Queens where he's playing Wayne Ferreira I think in something like the quarter finals and the light is fading and I'm on the side of the court like waiting for the winner to come off and he turns to me and he goes are we going to come off this court or what?

48:40I'm saying, something to do with me it's my first ever day in the job you know, anyway Tom Barnes the referee comes down and sort of tells him to carry on. Michael Shtick loses this match and goes up to the locker room. And I went up to him and I said, Michael, can you come to a press conference, please? He goes, I'm not coming anywhere until Tom Barnes, God rest him, he's no longer with us now, but the referee, the supervisor for the ATP, until he gets up here and explains to me what that was all about. And I'm like, okay. So I went off to see Tom Barnes And I said, Tom, Michael Sticks not going to come to the press conference because he wants to speak to you.

49:25And he says, well, tell him I can't do it right now. And I went and told him. And he goes, no, you sent him. You go back down there and send him up to me. And I said, Michael is refusing to come. So could you please? Yes, this was no surprise. I mean, I really like Michael. Wow, he was a pretty formidable guy. blastings and streakers and feuds bring back the 90s. Told you it was good. Yeah. And Henmania. Matt, tell us about Henmania. It starts in the first round. That's the great thing about this. I was there. Well, it had to start early, Matt, because you don't know. You don't know how much time you've got on it.

50:16yeah so Heman is I think two sets up on Kofelnikov and then can't close in the third he can't close in the fourth and it goes to a fifth and Heman has to save match points and this is Kofelnikov who's just won the French Open one of the biggest names in the sport and Heman's I think ranked 60-ish in the world something like that at this point um but Heman Heman beats him David you were there tell us yeah yeah i was there this is uh me and alex again uh in our early rounds when the weather was actually all right i think um in the early parts and we we got so it was my turn to have the centigord tickets and uh see henman who'd been much talked about by the likes of john parsons and all the british media who followed him around but he was he didn't mean an awful lot to the general public yet and this match put him on the map you know he's playing the french open champion beats him in five quintessential English man from Oxford who goes and beats the French Open champion from Russia who spends his whole time moaning and complaining and and Henman wins and then and carries on and I mean the place just totally took off for him and I think because it ran parallel with Euro 96 with with England doing well in that tournament as well the whole thing just had a momentum Yeah, so the win over Kofelnikov came just a day before England's semi-final against Germany football fever is sweeping the nation Mike Dixon in the mail writes, is God an Englishman?

52:00Henman was asked by an American journalist, I can just imagine a slightly bemused American journalist caught up in this England football hype. He declined to enlighten her much, but there was plenty of circumstantial evidence around yesterday. Patriotic fever has gripped England. And John Parsons described Hemans' win over Kofelnikov as easily the best British performance at Wimbledon since John Lloyd beat fourth-seeded Roscoe Tanner in four sets in 1977. There's quite a lot of Virginia Wade and general erasure of women in a lot of this reporting, which again, you know, there were lots of good things about the 90s, but maybe that was maybe that was a counterbalance.

52:45Yeah, we just need an Andy Murray voice male player over all of the next section. David Felgate said that Hemman was the best British player since Fred Perry in his eyes and there are a couple of nice write-ups in the Times. David Miller wrote, In a wheat mark by euphoria in English sport, Hemman revealed himself as a performer in the same mould as Jonathan Edwards, the triple jumper, a young man with talent, modesty and a measured view of his capabilities. And that is lofty. That is a lofty comparison. Jonathan Edwards had already, by that time, become the world record holder. And that is a world record that still stands to this day.

53:33Like, yeah, he was literally the greatest of all time at triple jumping. That's what that comparison is. There was a lot of hope, Catherine. one win over a clay quarter and he's the greatest of all time well and the thing is i think it's the it's the way he comports himself isn't it you know like a like a year earlier hemman has been disqualified and he's he's come back at wimbledon and he's you know he's got this boyish face still He's everything they wanted a British Wimbledon successor to be, right, David? He was white and proper and well-spoken and privately educated and clean-cut and uncontroversial.

54:24Yeah, I think you summed it up, really. Everybody loved him, really. Or at least everybody I knew, because as we've already discovered, not everybody was into Cliff Richard. I was into Henman David I was into Henmania don't worry and I mean it's interesting reading this back now because obviously with the passing of time and everything Henman would would go on to achieve or and not quite achieve he's kind of I think perhaps I'm well fairly and unfairly he's seen as a sort of nearly man isn't he Henman and at the time what everyone was getting excited about was the fact that he managed to get over the line in that big win and what could that possibly mean for his future.

55:11And I thought Simon Byrnes in the Times summed that all up very well, saying, we've grown used over the years to Brits with all kinds of wonderful shots and we have, through endless tracks of time, watched their eternal three-set martyrdoms with a kind of neurotic resignation. We all know that you need more than tennis shots to win tennis matches. henman soaring triumphantly above the handicaps of his nationality and of his nation's expectations showed yesterday that he possessed that extra thing the lust for mere victory how frightfully un-english of him so you know it is perfectly he's perfectly english and british in all those ways and yet he's he's done the thing that all the others haven't been able to do yet and maybe he's possibly going to be the one is kind of the vibe after this.

56:07And yeah, as David said, the run goes on after the Kafelnikov win with a win in the second round over another Brit, Danny Sapsford. 6-1, 6-7, 6-love, 6-1. And then in round three over Luke Milligan, another Brit, 6-1, 6-3, 6-4. and the fact here is that that was the first all-British men's singles match to take place on centre court for 58 years since Bunny Austin versus Eric Philby in 1938. So you can see why they're excited. Absolutely, yeah. Neil and Pat Roberts would have been furious to have tickets that day. In the middle of Henmania, it would have been different. This is the thing. you know we were we were not used to this sort of stuff were they into hen mania matt it's a good question i i don't i don't think so they don't talk about hen mania you know but maybe they were maybe i mean not many people are talking about it now but i feel like we're always talking about tennis i feel like it would have come up if they were into it.

57:21I think that attitudes have changed to Henman. Andy Murray's come along and won Wimbledon and Emma Raducanu and in men's tennis in particular you referenced the getting over the line. I'd got incredibly excited about Chris Bailey having match point against Goran Evonizovic in 1993. We'd had Jeremy Bates having match point against Guy Forge in the fourth round. So a guy getting all the way to the quarter to finals who was young and still had it all ahead of him and beating a French Open champion. I mean, this was just extraordinary to us. And people damn him now. Went all the way to the quarters.

58:02You know, that's serious backing up of a big win, isn't it? Gustafsson, Magnus Gustafsson in the fourth round, also straight sets and then lost to Todd Martin in the quarters who we'll talk about in a moment because he ends up losing out to Malavere, Washington. We've got some incredible press cuttings here that Matt has dug out and I will be posting on Instagram rather than doing any kind of singing here unless one of you two want to step up. But Henman's success, obviously coinciding with the success of the England team at the Euros and it was at that Euros that football's coming home and the song Three Lions by Baddiel Skinner and the Lightning Seeds came out and became the iconic song of England football and is still the iconic song of England football.

59:04There was a 1998 version, but it's the 96 version, folks. I had a bad moment in karaoke in New York, probably about 10 years ago now where my friend Tom and I requested to do Three Lions much to the amusement of everybody else present and they played the 98 version and it was terrible it's the wrong lyrics anyway as you can imagine newspapers adapted the lyrics of three lions to make it Henman. And it's everything you could hope it would be. Three strawberries, four a pound. Virginia Wade's still grinning. 20 years have hurt, but now we've started winning. Which is good. I'll give them that. It's good.

1:00:03And you've got a verse here. so many wet and windy days but all those ooh I says wear you down through the years but when I see that volley by Bates I really want to break into song but I can't sing but when I see that volley by Bates and the Mottram ace Henman belting the ball in Rosetsky's passport

1:00:32I know that was then but now it's love all again it's coming home I love it so much we've also got With Adidas on his shirt, centre court is calling. Henman is his name. All the seeds are falling. It's such good stuff. Timbo's bringing tennis home is the last line of this one. Absolute gems, Matt. True gems.

1:01:02That's why we go to the library. And if anybody wants to record an audio version of those lyrics to the tune and do what I can't, then please feel free. I would invite that. I would invite that very much. So those are your little subplots. Let's talk about the eventual finalists, Matt. yes so Hemans defeat in the quarters takes us to the semi-finals obviously and for the first time since the 1990 French Open none of the four semi-finalists at a major had previously won a major title so new major champion guaranteed out of Jason Stoltenberg, Richard Krejcik Todd Martin and Mal Washington um cry check had been to semi-finals at majors before at the australian open and the french open but of the four only todd martin had reached a major final before um i sort of feel a bit bad about this next section because everything everything i hear from mal washington and from you in that interview david's just that todd martin's sort of a nice man and doesn't deserve the way that the British press were writing about him during this tournament.

1:02:34Because obviously, you know, with all these big names falling and then Hermania runs out, Todd Martin's kind of, you know, big name left, I suppose. And these people were watching a lot of his matches. But Michael Henderson wrote a very scathing piece about his game and his entertainment value midway through the tournament. I say I feel bad. I did also enjoy the piece. so I am going to read it out. Just a few little sections of it. Todd Martin would make an excellent piano shifter, he begins. Give him an axe and he might cut down trees with the best lumberjacks. Dress him in a kilt and he'd probably toss the caber into the nearest lock.

1:03:14The problem is, he's a tennis player. As one of the world's lead sporting events, Wimbledon is milked dry by the American television networks, which means that folks back home are going to see an awful lot of the 25 year old from Michigan. Unfortunately, there's not a lot to see. His tennis is like the plains of the Midwest. It goes on forever with few interesting features. Although it's easy to admire the thoroughness with which Martin did his job, it's difficult to warm to a man who aims no higher than competence. his play lacks charm grace and all the other qualities that lift sport above the work a day pretty brutal isn't it was that is that was that your experience of top martin david or were you a top martin guy i mean again he is a he is a lovely fella right but he's not a great watch i mean he's he was a sort of heavy server without being explosive he hit a really good ball you'd have loved his backhand Matt really clean backhand and very very tall a bit plodding you know just not very exciting and yeah effective there were a couple of matches in his career that I really enjoyed I loved it when he played Andre Agassi in the US Open final in 1999 and he just took Agassi on from the baseline and led him two sets to one and eventually got reeled in.

1:04:50That was a great final. But to be honest with you, yeah, I mean, I'm afraid his story really was synonymous around this time. I mean, obviously he ended Henman's run, so the locals didn't enjoy that very much. But a lot of the chat about him was the fact that he couldn't close, that he was a bit of a choker. And it's harsh, but it did happen quite a bit. Do you remember when he ended Henman's run at the Royal Albert Hall, David? He was invited to the Champions Tour event at the Royal Albert Hall once. And he did a little bit too well for the organisers' liking. I don't think he got the memo. And he beat Tim Henman.

1:05:32And he wasn't invited back.

1:05:40well it's Mel Washington who does that job for Wimbledon by ending ending Todd Martin's run in the semi-finals uh Washington was unseeded but but 20 in the world um so you know these days he would be seeded but back then he wasn't um and we're going to hear a lot more about that very shortly from Washington himself. But yes, Washington comes from 1-5 down in the decider there to beat Todd Martin. So picking up on what David said about him being a bit of a choker, lots more about that and his run to the final very shortly. And in terms of Richard Krycek's run to the final, obviously the most notable moment is his straight set win over Pete Sampras in the quarterfinals that we've touched upon a few times, delayed overnight by rain, with Krycek leading Two Sets to Love and it was one all in the third.

1:06:37John Parsons wrote at the time, however much Sampras must have been hoping for a spectacular American Independence Day recovery from Two Sets Down, it was never more than a dream. With Krycek continuing to deliver aces and other winners with much the same venom and variety as the night before, the final chapter took 22 minutes to end Sampras' run of 25 consecutive victories. I've won a lot of close matches on that court, so this is a tough one to swallow, said Sampras, as the despair of his defeat sank in. I ran into a player who was very hot, both yesterday and today, and against someone like that on grass, you just have to accept it.

1:07:17Did he immediately, David, cried Shek after that win, take on the mantle of being the favourite to win the thing? Yeah, I would say so. I would say so, yeah. He was head and shoulders above all the others on paper. I think there was expectation that he would face Todd Martin in the final because of Martin's win over Henman and his size and serve, etc. But yeah, I mean, beating Michael Shtick and then Sampras back to back. Yeah, unheard of really at Wimbledon. And I guess especially with what had happened to the rest of the field. You know, Todd Martin was the only person left in the semifinals that had even reached a major final before.

1:08:04And, you know, Krycek goes on to back up that victory by beating world number 46, Jason Stoltenberg, in the semis. I remember Jason Stoltenberg as Leighton Hewitt's coach. Didn't know he'd reached a Wimbledon semifinal. Stoltenberg had needed five sets to win his first round against Adrian Vojno. Vojno? Vojnia. Vojnia. But found himself in the semis by beating two-time finalist Goran Ivanovic 6-3, 7-6, 6-7, 7-6 in the quarters. Was the priest sacked after that? Lots of questions, David, for you to ask Goran about Josip. I don't think losing to Jason Stoltenberg in the quarter finals with the draw opening up for you is what you what you hire a priest for is it I have a voice note from him so I'll find out shortly yeah we can't play Goran voice notes without checking them first that's not how that works Krycek then of course polished off Stoltenberg with relative ease in the semis three straight sets six one in the third And Mike Dixon wrote, it means Krychek will no longer be remembered for his uncharitable opinion that 80 % of women players were lazy, fat pigs.

1:09:25A comment he made in 1992. He now has a more mature view of the world. And Krychek said at the time about that comment that he made four years previously, I'm not proud of what I said about the women, but it was a long time ago. I've learned that there are two sides to every argument. And in this case, he was so ashamed of that. He was so ashamed of it, Catherine. I've spoken to him a few times in the past about it. And he still just recoils when you mention it with embarrassments and shame. And rightly so. So we've arrived at the final. Krychek against Washington. We're about to get underway.

1:10:17And then, Matt. Enter Melissa. Melissa Johnson, who we didn't track down for this show. I hope she's living a lovely life somewhere. Potentially off the millions she won from a betting scam. Who can say? uh yeah she she streaks across the court during the uh during the pre-match photo wearing wearing only an apron and then very quickly lifting the apron up specifically at the royal box which is incredible yeah and what we do have though is is an article from the daily express written just after the tournament and they tracked down Melissa. They got an exclusive interview with her titled, I'm really so naughty, says girl who took covers off.

1:11:24Can you imagine the hands being rubbed together at the British tabloids at this? I mean, just a gift for them. It begins. Wimbledon streaker Melissa Johnson admitted last night, I'm a naughty girl. Convent-educated Melissa added to the gaiety of nations and the royal box. It's like a fan fiction. It is. Go on. With her nearly naked cross-court dash at the Wimbledon men's final yesterday, Prince and Princess Michael of Kent roared with laughter as the pizza waitress, the pizza waitress with the special topping pulled off her striped uniform and ran past finalists to become Wimbledon's first ever streaker then she lifted her pinafore and flashed at the royal box this was a detail I didn't know Melissa, 23, has been working in the food village during Wimbledon fortnight after graduating from Manchester University with a degree in graphic design Quote,

1:13:03ever so I just did it I didn't feel embarrassed and then of course the obligatory mention of how much her parents house cost you've got her age in there you've got a reference to the fact that she went to convent school and then you've got Melissa was speaking after returning to her parents 450 000 pound home near wandsworth common just essential information naughtiness runs in the family her 15 year old sister lydia was among the girls who went on a saint trinian style rampage at some mary's school in wantage last month

1:13:47melissa said when i was taken to the police station i was cautioned for breach of the peace but the officers thought it was all a bit funny really and were very sweet. But my employers at Wimbledon were very po-faced. I bet they were. They demanded... This is the best line. They demanded my work pinny back immediately.

1:14:10I suppose that means I've got the sack. But it was going to be my last day anyway. She said Stafford joked about the four to one odds offered by William Hill that there would be a streaker. but she had not placed a bet. So there was a spate of streaking at British events at this time. So bookies were taking odds on whether there would be one at the Wimbledon final. So there was money to be made there. But Melissa says, I knew it had never been done before and it had to be done really, didn't it? I hope I've brightened up a few people's day. I have no regrets. I enjoyed every minute. And a friend said about her, Melissa is an exhibitionist.

1:14:48she took her top off in the pub the other day. She had been telling people she was going to streak, so I suppose it ended up as a kind of dare for her. Apparently, she stripped for a£50 bet a few days ago. She stopped at her underwear but said, I promise you will see more in a few days' time.

1:15:09And we have a quote from Krycek's girlfriend at the time, who is now his wife, I believe. Daphne Deckers? I don't think he noticed the girl who streaked. Richard wouldn't have noticed 10 topless women because he's so focused on his tennis. You've got to believe what you need to believe, Daphne. Krycek said, it lifted the tension and put a smile on my face. I thought it was very good. And Mal Washington, who lifted his shirt and bared his own chest as Melissa went bouncing by. This is the words of the Express, not of me. He said, she smiled at me. She lifted her apron and she was still smiling at me.

1:15:54It was pretty funny. And Matt, would you like to deliver the words of Wimbledon spokesman Johnny Perkins at the time? Yes, Johnny Perkins, who, for those who don't know, voice of Wimbledon, is the man who does the announcement about the grounds will be closing in around 15 minutes, that guy... Oh, that made my heart rate pick up, Matt. He said, and I loved this, whilst we do not wish to condone the practice, it did at least provide some light amusement for our loyal and patient supporters. I love that statement. And I can imagine Johnny getting it. A little twinkle in his eye. We don't approve of it, but we did allow ourselves to enjoy it.

1:16:44It's so perfectly 90s, isn't it? Now, match disruptions are climate change protesters and people shouting about domestic abuse allegations against top players and all sorts of other serious stuff. But 90s, it's your holiday from history, isn't it? I know things were happening, but in the context of now, Yeah. A frivolous fun streaker with with nothing to prove, just trying to have a bit of fun is kind of perfect. The Wimbledon Compendium says this frolicsome act would be repeated six years later during the Gentleman Singles final, this time by a male enthusiast. And folks, I have deep dived on that guy this morning.

1:17:39He's called Mark Roberts. unclear if there's any relation and he was basically and still is like a semi-professional streaker he's done it nearly 600 times which i do think makes it less fun uh but is interesting and it's in its own way um i had totally forgotten him in that 2002 wimbledon final it certainly didn't cause the same waves david that melissa did in 1996 there's no forgetting melissa No, I mean, I can't even remember that. I've got a picture I can send you. No, you're all right.

1:18:20Which brings us to the interview portion of today's show. The story of reaching that 1996 Wimbledon final from the two finalists. We're going to start here with Mal Washington that David spoke to a couple of weeks ago. and it's a wonderful conversation and he's clearly an absolutely lovely man that has been doing very interesting things with his life since that Wimbledon final and since his career ended quite abruptly not long after that Wimbledon final. We're going to hear about that here from the man himself speaking to David. Well Mal, it's lovely to have you with us here on the Tennis Podcast and I'm old enough to have lived through your career and remember it very well, just about when I was starting to join the tour and I think your Wimbledon run in particular is pretty unforgettable for anybody that witnessed it.

1:19:21I'm just curious from your side, when you arrived at Wimbledon, my recollection is it wasn't a tournament that had necessarily treated you that well in terms of results, So what happened when you arrived at Wimbledon in 1996? That's a good question. And I can't really say what exactly happened or why it happened, but you are correct in saying that there were a number of years in there in the early, early to mid-1990s where I had very little success at Wimbledon. And, you know, it had crossed my mind before. I mean, maybe we miss a, maybe we just don't go to Wimbledon one year. But then in reality, you just start thinking, okay, this is a major.

1:20:08This is Wimbledon. You don't just miss a grand slam because, you know, you didn't have previous results. So, you know, it crossed my mind, you know, at times when I wasn't having the success I wanted to at Wimbledon. But in reality, I was never going to miss Wimbledon. And you show up and you go through your routines and your practice and you prepare the best you can. And then you walk out on the court and then you just start winning. So, you know, why was I winning as much as I did? It's hard to say, you know, but looking back, I think some of the guys that I was playing, it was setting up for for a pretty good tournament because I was playing some guys that I had had some success against before early on let's say in that in that first week and then you you know yeah as the draw shapes up a few players start losing and then it did the draw opens up pretty quickly so it's uh why did it happen that year and not any other year I don't know but I'm pretty happy that it did happen yeah absolutely well looking at that first week you only lost one set I'm looking at this and um you played Thomas Enquist second round I mean he's he's a top 10 player in the world you played Paul Harhouse in the fourth round he very very good player um and then a slightly surprising opponent in the quarterfinals in Radolescu of Romania who is 91 in the world but I mean that was that was an epic in itself I mean were you feeling at that stage, having reached the quarterfinals, you know, this is a huge moment in your career.

1:21:55Of course. When you, it's not like I had gone, you know, I wasn't one of those players who every single grand slam I'm going, you know, deep into the second week. You know, you know, I had, I'd gone to the round of 16 before I'd gone to the quarterfinals of the Aussie Open back in 94. But you start looking at the draw and you start looking at some of those players who were falling out of the draw. Agassi fell out of the draw. Boris Becker fell out of the draw. And then you start saying you realize the draw has opened up and someone's going to come through and someone is going to reach their first semifinal or their first final of a major.

1:22:40and you just keep playing. I mean, I'm playing Radalescu in the quarterfinals, and that is a match I'm feeling I should win. But when you're in a major and you're playing against a guy with a good serve on grass, anything can happen at the major. Look at the most recent majors we've been watching, and most recently Roland Garros on the men's and women's side. Anything can happen in a major. And, you know, things came together and I had a, you know, a five-step battle with Radalescu and came through that one. So I was pretty, what, 6 '4", maybe 6 '4", 7 '5", in the fifth set. So there were some moments in that match where one or two points either way, you know, you could be in the locker room licking your wounds.

1:23:34But, you know, it went my way. and as did your semi-final but that was a dramatic match which I mean I remember watching it live at the time it was five sets you've fought your heart out your two sets all against Todd Martin who's ranked similarly to you you were 20 in the world he was 18 but he was he was expected I think to come through particularly when he when he establishes a very one-sided lead i think 5-1 in the fifth set right what happened at 5-1 in the fifth set mal from your perspective and and i don't know whether you can say what happened from his perspective but i'd be curious to know what your take is well well david it's it's one of those things you're yeah i i remember i'm down big in the fifth set, you know, we had had multiple rain delays and we'd come off the court and gone back onto the court.

1:24:33So the, the, the match was very disruptive and you, you try to get momentum and then you'd lose momentum because you're going off of the court. But, you know, I was, when you're playing a guy like Todd with such a big serve, you know, you're, you're focused so much on holding your own serve. And he just took off in the fifth set, had the five, one lead. And, you know, I do, I do remember a specific point at 5-1. He's serving for it, and I wound up hitting this winner down the line. And it was probably the biggest eruption that the crowd had in hours and hours. Why that moment? I don't know. Maybe because I'm down big and I have a big forehand winner up the line.

1:25:21And I just remember saying to myself, you know what? make him win the match make him serve it out and you know don't don't lose the match because you get broken see if see if your opponent has the guts and the nerve to serve it out and then i wind up breaking serve and then i hold and then it's you know he has the opportunity to serve for it again and that's one of those moments where throughout the course of the year you probably have one or two matches that you should have lost and you somehow wound up winning and for me that That was one of those matches. And then you probably have a few matches, a couple matches throughout the year that you probably should have won that you wound up losing.

1:26:01And, you know, why did why did I come back from 5-1 down on one of the biggest servers on tour? I don't know. You know, maybe maybe in the afterlife, if I can ask, I can ask that question. But then I can also ask the question, why do I get to the Wimbledon final and lose? I mean, that's your dream. You dream of getting to the Wimbledon final and winning, not losing. So why do things happen like that? I have no idea, but I was pretty excited that it did. Yeah. My understanding is that you were pretty good friends with Todd. Is that right? Yes. I mean, we were both from Michigan. I went to the University of Michigan.

1:26:42He came on a recruiting trip to the University of Michigan, but wound up going to Northwestern. We knew each other from junior tennis. We played each other in college tennis. We played each other on the tour a number of times prior to that Wimbledon semifinal match. So, yeah, I had known Todd for a long, long time. And we had even been, let me see, Davis Cup partners, Davis Cup team members together when we played the Czech Republic earlier that year in 96. I've been in locker rooms where where there's really only a couple of players left semifinals finals days and somebody's gonna have lost somebody's gonna have won it's it's a tough scene to be in at times I just wonder what your recollections of going back into the locker room were because you would have been I imagine euphoric you're in a Wimbledon final you've got a friend there who's going to be pretty devastated did i i would imagine there wasn't much communication between you at the time but did you ever talk about it well um you're right after the match that's not something you're uh you know i'm never going to talk to him about um i don't i'm not certainly not right after the match and for for a number of years um i did not i would that's not something I'm necessarily gonna bring up to him but but what's funny is uh you know so there was a 5-1 lead um that that he lost and I remember a bunch of years later um he and I were playing golf and I we had never talked about the the Wimbledon final the semi-final we had never talked about that match and we were playing golf and he had a putt and I and I made the joke I was like what's that putt right there about five feet one inch and playing off of the 5-1 lead that he had and uh and of course he misses the putt and from that point it it kind of broke the ice and this is a number of years later I mean it kind of broke the ice and and then we you know it wasn't that big of a deal and we didn't have to kind of walk on eggshells around around that topic um at all But what I do remember, and this just shows some of Todd's character, is I saw him at the hotel the morning of the Wimbledon final.

1:29:12And I talked to him briefly, and he just kind of said, go out there and take care of business today. um so in that moment you know he he was just very very nice and and humble and just was wishing me all the best in the final and you know and hoping i would you know take care of business that's that's great i think anybody who has ever met todd would not be surprised by that right that kind of guy he was he is um and i'm not surprised he was on that day just just from your perspective you're into a Wimbledon final I just wonder you sound very matter of fact about your you're having this incredible tournament but were you able to keep the routine ahead of between the semi-final and the final did you feel any different was did your mind get carried away at all uh yes and yes you you fall back on your routine and what has worked for you in you know or I fell back on my routine and what had worked for me for years and certainly that week.

1:30:19So, you know, literally you're getting up and you're having, for me, I'm having the same breakfast and I'm, and my brother was there with me. So he was, we were warming up together and we'd warm up on the same court. And, but from a, from a mental perspective, it's hard to look at this match as just another match. It's literally the biggest match of my career. It's literally the biggest match of Richard Krychek's career. We had never been in a Grand Slam final before. And we know someone is going to walk away with their life having been changed significantly. And you're written in the history books as a Wimbledon champion.

1:31:02And so the routine is the same, but it's virtually impossible to look at it as just another match. because you're walking out on the court, you have your game plan, you want to execute your game plan, but inside your head, yeah, there's maybe a hundred things going on. I don't want to say it's a brain fog, but it's an immense amount of pressure and you're walking on the court and you're just trying to play tennis and you're just trying to stay focused on the tennis, which is why I have so much admiration with those players who can excel at the highest level in the biggest moments. And that's what the greats do.

1:31:44When the pressure is at its highest, they can somehow produce a level of tennis that a lot of players won't. And in those moments, it doesn't surprise me when players falter. I do recall I had a horrible sleep that night. It was just very difficult getting a decent sleep. and you're getting phone calls from people you haven't heard from in a while to my hotel room. I'm like, how are they getting to my hotel room? I need to take the phone off because people stopped calling me. But it was everything about leading into the final was different. It was uncomfortable. It's not anything I had really experienced before at that level.

1:32:27And you just hope you can perform. and unfortunately that day, that moment, someone performed better than me. And not only that, you also had to experience something that I don't think any other Wimbledon finalists have ever experienced before or since and that is the fact that the opening moments were interrupted by a streaker. Yeah. What was your vantage point? Maybe I should phrase that differently. What was your memory of it? Well, Richard and I were standing at the net taking photos, standing in front of the, I don't know, 100 photographers, however many there were. And then you hear this commotion in the crowd, and you see this person streaking across the court between ourselves and the camera, and the folks with the cameras taking pictures.

1:33:26and she shrinks across and doesn't have a lot of clothes on. And in the moment, it's kind of funny, but you're like, geez, this is the biggest moment of my career, and this is kind of where things have gone. So did it relax me in the moment? I don't know. Did it throw me off my game in the moment? I don't know. It was funny. It's funny to look back on it. David was kind of interesting. I don't know if people remember the match more or they remember the streaker more. I'm not sure. But it's right about now. And it'll come across my Instagram. And I'll start getting a few messages with the streaker.

1:34:12No one ever says anything about the match. They're like, hey, I found out that you were part of that match. I literally get this every single year. people bringing up the streaker and maybe they this is the first time they've they've heard about it or seen it and then of course you know every once in a while people just send me a picture of it um so it's funny and i'll always be linked to that yeah um it's it's interesting because from from the from my vantage point as just a tennis fan and a viewer back in 1996 i saw this final as an amazing performance by Richard Krychek. He'd already beaten Michael Shtick and Pete Sampras.

1:34:53He was playing incredible stuff. And I kind of put the result down to his level. And reading a little bit of what I've read from yourself and hearing from yourself, I get the sense that you weren't entirely happy with your own performance. Would that be true? Or do you take the same view as I did from afar? Yeah, without question, a lot of that win was was on him. I mean, he came out and won the match. And to your point, you know, he had beaten a couple of former Wimbledon champions on route to the final. And I've said it a thousand times. He served me off the court. You know, when you when you're struggling breaking a guy's serve, you have to be able to match that power.

1:35:42And, you know, with on your own serve. and he was the guy who was able to get one break per set, which is all he needed. And so I give credit. I don't take anything away from Richard. He had a great tournament, and he did what he needed to do on that final day. But yeah, I wish I could have been able to match his level or counteract him or get him out of his rhythm a little bit and played a little bit better. but um i i don't sit here and say yeah i lost it because i didn't i didn't play well i mean that was a part of my level was because of his level so he uh he came out and won the match and did what he needed to do have you ever watched it back or any part of that wimbledon back with with friends or family or somebody you want to say look i i i did that i've never watched it nope never watched it every once in a while.

1:36:37I'll see a clip somewhere. I know my kids have seen some of it. And what my kids generally say is, you know, Dad, whenever we, and this is when they were a little bit younger, he's like, Dad, you know, we go on YouTube and every match we see you playing on YouTube, you always lose. That's what my kids told me. And then the second thing they say is, that doesn't really look like you. You look a lot smaller and a lot younger. That's the second thing they say. And then they make a comment about my shorts. Because those 1996 Reebok shorts that I used to wear, they really wouldn't go today here in 2026.

1:37:21I don't think they would go over too well. Yes. I'm familiar with being in my 50s and getting my kids commenting on how I used to look. Yeah. Um, now you were reaching that final. You were the first African-American man to reach a Grand Slam singles final since Arthur Ashe won Wimbledon in 1975. And to this day, you remain the only two men to have achieved that feat. Um, did you did you get a chance to meet, spend any time with Arthur at all? And I'm just wondering how much of an impact he might have had on you. Yeah, that fact was certainly brought up every day of the second week of Wimbledon back in 96, because people were constantly bringing, oh, you'd be the first black man since Arthur to do this.

1:38:13So it was a wonderful comparison. And I did have an opportunity to meet Arthur on a number of occasions. I met him when I was at the University of Michigan before I even turned pro. That was the first time I had met him face-to-face. And then I had met him one other time at a at a luncheon in New York. So he definitely influenced my my life. But but David, I'd probably say less on the tennis side and more on the on the role that that we play, have the opportunity to play as citizens or as athletes. He was very, very conscious of who he was and how he could impact the lives of individuals. So with what he tried to do in the nonprofit space and in the social space as a human being, as a citizen of the world, I have taken some inspiration of that and just tried to impact young people here in Jacksonville, Florida with my youth foundation.

1:39:17because I often put it this way. I was put on here on Earth to hit a tennis ball for a short period of time. And in reality, yeah, it was cool, but I don't know that anyone really cares that I was hitting tennis balls back in the 1990s. But if I can impact a life, impact a child's life, help inspire someone to pursue their passions, And to me, that's more of why we were put on earth to impact people as opposed to hit a tennis ball. Yeah. Well, I can heartily encourage anybody listening to this to go and check out the Malavere Washington Youth Foundation. I've looked at your website, Marilyn. It really is.

1:40:02It's wonderful. And I imagine that takes up a fair bit of your time. And can I just ask you to bring us up to date with what else takes up your time these days? Yeah, it takes up a lot of time. I would have never realized, you know, in the nonprofit space, you know, this is what it entails. Interestingly, the first conversations about bringing the foundation to Jacksonville happened just a few months after that Wimbledon final. and but we're in our 30th year of programming here in Jacksonville with life skills tennis and education with the foundation just trying to impact a few hundred kids and in fact at this very moment as we're talking there's about 260 kids in our in our summer camp from kindergarten all the way through through high school so we're just impacting kids as much as we can and along with that.

1:41:00You know, I mentioned my two adult kids and my wife, and I spend a lot of time in the real estate business. It's what I've done for real estate and my foundation in tennis are my big three passions. And I've had a passion for the real estate business since I was probably 10 years old in the same way I had a passion for tennis back then. So that's what I spend most of my most of my time doing and just trying to trying to help out young people and help keep them on a on a on a positive path with uh with our after school programs and our financial literacy programs and exposing them to to real estate one of the one of the great businesses and and pretty important although you had a good career you made good prize money back in the day but obviously times were different to what they are now and i imagine it was important to have something to go to, you know, something.

1:41:56And it's particularly because what people listening may not realize, I go back and look at your record. I think you were 27 years of age when you played that Wimbledon final in 1996. And you never played Wimbledon again? I never played Wimbledon again. And what's crazy is that that was that summer, 96 was the pinnacle of my career. I won my fourth title in Bermuda. I played Davis Cup for the second time. I was in the Wimbledon final, and I played the Olympics in Atlanta later that summer. But seven months later is when I was playing Gustavo Kyrton in Brazil in Davis Cup in February 97, and that's where I injured my knee.

1:42:47I proceeded to have a surgery later that year, later that spring. And what's crazy is I had a win over Guga in February 97. And a few months later, I'm rehabbing after surgery, watching him win Roland Garros for the first time. And that was just kind of an interesting feeling. And I'm thinking, I just beat this guy a few months ago in Davis Cup in Brazil, of all places on red clay. So I never played Wimbledon again because I proceeded to have a couple of surgeries and a lot of rehab. And if you look at my record from, let me see, the beginning of 1997, I had very few wins over the next couple of years.

1:43:31And that was a lot of because of my knee. Never played Wimbledon. Played after that Wimbledon final, I probably played three or four more majors in my career just because my knee would not last. And then I eventually retired in 1999. Do you look back and feel a little cheated or do you feel lucky that you had the chance to fit that in before you finished? Oh God, no. I'd never say, I never looked back and felt like I was cheated. I had a wonderful career, did what I loved to do, had eight quality years of health healthy tennis and a couple years of injury-laden tennis but the career I had you know there's a thousand guys out there who would love to have the career I had and and they won't but of course you look back I look back and say man if I just won this match or if I could have won won that match my career would have been uh very very different so I'm happy with the career ahead, not satisfied with the career ahead, but it allowed me to do what I loved to do.

1:44:39I mean, that's kind of a dream existence. But what I do think is funny, and you kind of mentioned prize money. You know, there was a big run-up in prize money throughout the 90s, and it's nowhere near what it is now. But the stat I always think is kind of funny is I have won Grand Slam final. I have more prize money than Bjorn Borg, and he's won 11 majors. So that gives you a sense of kind of the trajectory of prize money and kind of the way the world of tennis has gone over the decades. But yes, it would have been nice to play in this era. I'd have a lot more prize money if I did. Yes. Well, it's very valuable and cherished memory, certainly for me as a tennis fan.

1:45:34And I'm sure for many people listening. And it's just been lovely to hear from you, Mel. Thank you so much for your time. It is great being able to talk with you and kind of reminisce about the way things used to be. I enjoyed. Well, David, that was a joy. What an absolutely lovely man and somebody that we just don't hear from in tennis. You know, he's obviously still involved in the sport in a very important way, but in terms of sort of presence in broadcasting and a voice in the sport, he's just, he's kind of disappeared, hasn't he? Yeah, and as you can hear, he just sounds so satisfied with his life, you know, kind of just content, really.

1:46:25And I think, as you'll hear from Richard Kreishet, they've almost lived similar existences after this particular match. And I think that that speaks to two people who weren't serial contenders all the time for titles. They weren't defined all the time by the titles they won and the sort of, you know, the Grand Slam race. This was moment in time stuff. And, yeah, I love that he was so open to having a chat. I think I contacted him on LinkedIn and he was back to me within a couple of minutes. He was quite happy. David's such a LinkedIn guy. I don't understand LinkedIn at all, but thank goodness David is keeping across that medium for us.

1:47:20Absolutely. All we get is the occasional screenshot of insane things that are happening on there from David. And we appreciate that. which brings us to Richard Krychek no need for LinkedIn here David he's in your he's in your phone book isn't he you go back a long way with Richard yeah well I knew him when I joined the tour in 98 he was obviously still playing and still trying to overcome knee injuries um you know and just just figure things out really um because yeah he he's somebody i ended up commentating with for many years on bbc radio 5 live as well um he's an interesting character you can think he's not very interested in like he took a lot more chasing than mal washington did to set this interview up but as you'll hear when once you get going with him he's fantastic sure is here is 1996 wimbledon champion richard krajczyk talking to david so we're going to get in a time machine now and uh yeah go back it go back in time a long time in fact uh to before your big title win uh to ask what on earth you were doing in 94 and 95 when you lost in the first round yeah yeah yeah lost to cahill almost retired i think there and then I lost to Shelton the year after so yeah I wasn't going with too much confidence to Wimbledon and both good cross for players have to say you know Cale and Shelton and I lost quarterfinals two weeks before that to Harhuis on grass and in Rossmallen so not feeling too good and then yeah I have to say was very happy with my draw first round and because that's how far I was looking, just win one match.

1:49:14I thought I don't want to lose three years in a row for a round. So I played Javier Sanchez, who was a good player, but on grass, especially the grass back then, that was skidding through ball, staying much lower than it does now. Which was, yeah, that was nice. So I was pretty confident I was going to win that match, which I did. Yeah, and he was pretty confident he was going to lose, which also helped. you mentioned that the players you'd lost to were pretty good grass court players absolutely when you say you nearly retired you mean out of the match or out of your career no no no okay he almost retired i think it was one of his last matches from his career okay maybe it was even his last win i mean i don't know look it up i'm pretty sure it was like i had the feeling at one stage it was like his last win of his career i was like oh my god I was like, okay.

1:50:11Okay. So what changed? I mean, yes, you had a good draw in the first round. To go from, I mean, I don't think you'd got past the fourth round, I think was your best in 93 prior to that. And you'd been around for some time. I remember watching you probably for the first time in the 1991 Australian Open run. So that's five years earlier. And everybody used to say, oh, this guy's got the perfect game for grass. But the results weren't really there to back it up. So why and what changed? Well, I never really agreed I had the perfect game for grass. I mean, I had 50 % of the perfect game for grass, which was great serve and pretty good serve and volley.

1:50:56And I just had to make some returns. And that's what was how good my serve was and my serve and volley. So poorly was my return and especially my back and passing shot. and also the movement I was struggling with sliding a lot, also a bit afraid to slide, to slip and I mentally didn't like the surface too much because even though I was somebody who liked to play short rallies, the rallies in grass were even too short for me I had no rhythm and I had the feeling every day I was playing worse and worse so a couple of things happened

1:51:39one was I was really negative after I lost to Rossmahlen and I was like why would I go to Wimbledon it's so bad for my confidence, better take a holiday and start fresh on the hardcourt for the American summer so yeah, of course didn't agree of course and we had a little bit of a disagreement and then I'll call you in a couple of days. And then I thought, you know what, you've got to play Wimbledon. You know what, just play, stay positive, feel good and win or lose. I mean, if you lose, at least leave with a good feeling on holiday that you've played well and don't get annoyed or negative. So that attitude was already a big difference.

1:52:27Then the other thing was, and I think I started that year, but maybe the year before, I remember that Agassi, he practiced always on hardcourt on the grass. So I started doing that also, besides practicing on grass. I started also practicing a little bit on hardcourt. I was close to women and there were a few not great courts. I just hit for like 20 minutes on the hardcourt and get a little bit of rhythm and ball bounce good again and I was hitting the ball in the middle of the racket. And that also gave me a good feeling. So I think those were two important ones. The draw helped a lot. First round against Sanchez.

1:53:10Second round against Rostano, who was a great basketball player. But I think he also almost retired after the match. I played a couple of guys who were retired on the verge of retirement. But I know I was worried about that match. But he couldn't serve. And his elbow was really, really bad. And like I said, it's one of his last matches in his career. or maybe it was even his last match of his career. So that was nice. And then again, Stephen was also nice to play against, even though it was a good grass for a player, but he was not a big hitter. It wasn't like a Rusevski with a huge serve or like other players.

1:53:46But the thing that happened there, the first two sets, we split sets, 7-6, I won and 7-6, I lost. But a little bit of the negativity that I had on the grass came back in those two sets. And I remember sitting after I lost the second set, I was like, okay, the way you're playing, probably going on holiday after this match. But at least go with a good feeling on holiday. And, you know, don't be negative, just positive. Yeah, I really turned around, played well. And the funny thing was that after the match, I think I won like two and two, third and fourth set, that my coach was waiting for me because it was in the old court number two.

1:54:23And you have to walk, you know, you walk off the court and you're in the crowd. So he was standing there and he wanted to say something. and I just lift my hand up to him. He says, I'm okay. Don't worry, I'm okay. So he understood that I was wrong and I was back on track, basically. Because he didn't like the first two sets. It was also cold and was not nice. So to watch that in the cold must not have been a really nice experience for Rowan, my coach. And then after that, I played a couple of good matches against Stitch, against Sampras. Talk about an understatement. Richard, you didn't lose a set against Michael Shtick, 1991 Wimbledon champion.

1:55:11I think the biggest difference, there were two things that happened. One was that my back and pass improved a lot. I mean, I was returning well, but I was, against Sermvalli's return, pretty okay. But when the volley came back, that's when my backhand went off, basically. That's where I had big problems. So I was making the passing shots. I remember a big one against Sampras on the breakpoint in the third set. And against Stitch, I came up with some good returns, obviously, also. But especially the second shot, the passing shot, that was for me very big. And also, you know, when I slipped, normally I would get annoyed.

1:55:50and when I fell on the ground, I looked at my coach and I laughed. And I could laugh it off. And all that stuff, you know, like a lot of monkeys on my back, I guess. So yeah, it's just everything. Different attitudes, hindu-bo-bo. And the other thing, which I cannot really, cannot explain what happened, is because there's quite a lot of rain. And normally what happens in general in tennis, that there's always a momentum shift after a rain break. A lot of times, you know, you're playing well and then rain comes and then, you know, the other guy can regroup. You're maybe thinking, oh, I was doing so well.

1:56:26And a lot of times after rainbreak, not always, but a lot of times the momentum shifts a little bit at least. And I don't think the momentum shifted one time against me in the rainbreak. Every rainbreak I came back, I was still the better player. Wow. Yeah, well, exactly. I cannot explain it why. I really I cannot remember one instance that I was the lesser player even the worst one was of course when the guy slipped under the covers after the beginning of the third set with Sampras, I don't know if you remember that so then I thought and even they were saying it on TV because I was watching Wimbledon Tonight or whatever it's called the BBC thing and where I got the biggest compliments or make a little side of Petcash.

1:57:19Actually, I think it was that evening he said it. I've never heard that before or after never heard that either. Like I don't understand why Sampras is serving to his back end. I've never heard that they're ever about said about me. It's like so and it was almost true you know but like I was making so many back end returns and winners and pass anyway. So But the thing was, a lot of times, the number one player in the world, or the number one or two seats of the tournament, or sometimes, they get away in the beginning, like they escape, like some match, like Sampras did against Coretia in the US Open that year or so, and then they win the tournament.

1:58:04Anyway, so I have the whole night to think about, oh, I'm going to beat Sampras. He's won three years in a row. He won like 24 matches in a row, I think. And he can regroup. I mean, talk about regroup. It's not like an hour. It's a whole night. And I have a whole night to think about this. So I knew how bad this could be, basically, for me. And this was his last... How do you call it? The straw, not his last straw. or you cling to the last piece of hope. It was almost the last opportunity, because I was really playing well. I thought, you see, the number one gets one more chance to win this match.

1:58:51So all that was in a way going through my brain also. But then I thought, all I can do is play my best tennis and he's the one who stays at Slav down. And then I came out again playing at least the same as he did or better as as my opponent it was like i said any rain break anything even overnight break i always came better and yeah inexplicable for me really i know tennis players always say i just concentrate one match at a time or one point at a time but when did be honest when did you think you could win wimbledon that year I think after I beat Sampras, I really started to think about it. And when Todd Martin lost this match, then I was like, okay, if I lose this, this is the biggest chance ever in a Grand Slam I will have to win a Grand Slam.

1:59:54In the end, anyway, it was like that because it was my only final I ever played. but you know I mean Andy Murray before he won his first slam I think he played five finals against the number one in the world two in the world one in the world one in the world two in the world or something like that I mean I was like wow I'm playing against the number 15 or 20 who is not really a grass court player I mean I mean there's no bigger chance so and that gave pressure I was like okay I'm not gonna I'm not gonna the pressure is not gonna be the reason why I lose you know and How did you keep the pressure at bay, like the night before and the morning of the final?

2:00:38I think what was very important, I was never satisfied or happy. I remember when I beat Sampras I think I just raised one hand that I won and it was a huge win but I was like this means nothing and not to over exaggerate this is going to mean nothing this is only going to be a nice result beating Sampras and making semis I have to win this now and not that I have to but I can only be happy with the victory and I remember when I made 93 semifinals of French I mean I played five sets against the ODRA in the fourth round five cents no third round yeah third round I had a race of five sets five sets against Carlos Costa being 5-3 down in the fifth five sets against Karanovic playing over two days playing Jim Curio best play court player at that moment I was like okay this has been a good tournament you know I tried to win I wanted to win but there it was totally different mentality here I was like wow I got a what an opportunity You know, sometimes you have to be a little bit lucky.

2:01:44And I think I've only been lucky. I mean, it started with Muster being angry that he wasn't seeded. So, suddenly I got seeded because Muster pulled out. So, I came into a different spot playing Javier Sanchez first round. And then Rosanio was injured. Now, okay, Brett Steven. And then played, you know, two really good matches. Again, Stitch and Sampras. and then you know i was supposed to play evenisevic and and i the first two times i played i beat him quite comfortably and then i lost like six matches in a row against him a lot of them close not all of them but a lot of them close and so that was not the player wanted to play but suddenly he loses to stoltenberg who also you know i didn't like to play in a way but he's not a big hitter so much better for me than Ivanovic so there I was was already also lucky and then to play either Todd Martin or Washington who of course the best player always goes to the final if it's tennis wise or physical or mentality in this time I think it was mentality because it was five love up Todd Martin the better grass court player also there I think you know playing Todd in the final would have been at least from a tennis point of view a lot tougher maybe Todd would have gotten nervous I don't know.

2:03:05But, yeah, there. So, I have to say, not too many things were going against me at Wimbledon. And also, you realise that. And you're like, okay, give it your best shot. Don't be happy with any result except the title. That's why I felt from the semis, and especially after I had to play Washington. And I was nervous. I was not like, I'm going to win this. I was like, this is going to be my biggest chance. And in the end, it was only from the point of view that Mal was my only final. Did it, when you arrived on the court with Mal and the streaker arrived, did you in any way struggle to get your concentration back?

2:03:59No, no, I thought it was really nice. You tell yourself things and fool yourself in a way. So we would go on the court. We both, you know, the guy in the white coat is carrying your bags. I think the only match that happens. And we both want to sit on the first chair because it's easier to communicate with your box then. So we both won it. So we had to flip a coin. I won that coin toss. I was like, yes, you see, this is my match to win. This is my tournament. This is my title. Stupid thing. Then the streaker comes, you know. I'm nervous but she broke the tension for me. So you're fooling yourself in a way.

2:04:38Everything that happens you see in a positive light. At least I was seeing that.

2:04:48I don't think it works against me. I'm not going to say it helps but it for sure doesn't work against you. If you think I'm unlucky with this, of course it's me again. who's, I'm not saying I had those kind of days also, but Wilmenden, except those first two sets against Stephen, I was Mr. Positive for two weeks, which doesn't happen too often that I'm two weeks in a row Mr. Positive. There you go. I remember. Richard, you said when you arrived on the court, you wanted the chair nearest to your box so that you could communicate with them. Yeah, the first chair when you walk on, basically. I thought it was not allowed to communicate with your box back then.

2:05:28No, it's not coaching, but they do the fist, they clap their hands slowly, like, come on. No, it's impossible to coach. I mean, the only coaching that my coach did was, yeah, he looked up. And that meant my ball toss was to lower myself. That's the only thing he would ever coach, in a way. And the rest, it was always like, come on, and not shouting, like mouthing a little bit. And yeah, so yeah, it was always important. You know, that was the person I had contact with. Also, you know, my mother came that day and a few people came, friends, but nobody was allowed in the box. my girlfriend then girlfriend now wife Daphne was there person people person from the federation one or two were there all the time and I wanted the same box I didn't want to look to the box and suddenly see next to row and all these new faces so even though it was the nicest thing to do to your mother to say okay you could sit in the box you know I wanted to win this title so I was like okay you sit two rows behind the box and yeah so you're a bit superstitious also yeah for sure yeah well listen i mean the match ended up on paper being quite straightforward in terms of the scoreline i just wonder what what were the days that followed your win like you know suddenly did your life feel a bit different um the next day uh you have the press call you have like do a thing with press so that was nice that was new for me and the rest no, I didn't notice it was different until I started playing again to be honest I went like, I don't know I think one or two days after I flew to Austria it was always halfway up when I went to Austria in the mountains and I did a lot of cycling that was my holiday I was doing everything except then cycling, weights, running I was doing in the morning cross country skiing on the glacier which was good for my knees also I loved it.

2:07:43I felt really good about it, really happy. It was nice. Then what I noticed was that I lost some motivation after. To train, to play tennis and also to play matches really hard mentally. All my confidence, I made the final on the first tournament I played, but I noticed then already. I mean, looking back, I should have taken a break for much longer. Three, four weeks. You know, maybe not skip the US Open, but maybe just take a break until like two weeks before the US Open, play one tournament and then play the US Open. I just treat it like a normal week, you know. I was like, okay, Wimbledon has passed.

2:08:28I go to Austria, start training again, go to the States and play the hardcourt lead-up tournaments. And I underestimated how much of an impact it made on me. And I always thought, yeah, you know, I want to win a slam, but, you know, not many people do it. So, you know, if it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen. But I felt apparently subconsciously a lot of pressure and a lot of desire to win the title. So after I won it, it was like I completely, I don't know, deflated this maybe a negative way, but like let go of all the pressure and all the expectations and i was like oh i relaxed completely so and it took me a lot of losing before i was like yeah now i want to train and fight again when did you when did you get it back because because i mean you reached it's one of the questions really you didn't win another major as you said you didn't reach another final you came very close that that one year in 98 against goren yeah but um but but it didn't happen for you and you were still quite a young man i know you had a lot of knee problems but you were still a young man when did you get your motivation back yeah it was it was um i think like uh in december that uh in 1996, played World Team Grand Slam Cup.

2:09:53And also there, I was struggling. My knee was actually really bad. And then I was like, you know what? This has got to stop. So I lost that match. And I had surgery after because my meniscus was torn. And I found out. That's why I was like, oh, why does my knee bother? Yeah, you have a torn meniscus. Like, ah, okay, now I understand. And so already that rehab, I was really there, you know? Also, I came back in my first tournament in Rotterdam and won it straight away.

2:10:26That started for me. Let's say December started but I didn't play tournament until February 1997. But already in December when I got the operation, that operation, the decision to do the operation and start rehab, that's where I got six months in. long time but okay yeah like i said i totally underestimated the the mental impact uh that the title had on me yeah i can understand that i have two more questions richard one is just and i even quickly i even respected more guys like sampers and agassi you know they would win a title win again keep winning like wow amazing and also one of the overthoughts i had is you know My childhood, I didn't get abused physically, but it was tough.

2:11:12My father pushed me, so it was difficult.

2:11:20So I had a love-hate relationship with tennis, also with my childhood in a way. And that's also like, ah, so was it all worthwhile? Yeah, well, I won this title. Yeah, still was it. Yeah, maybe it was. Maybe I gained back my childhood. you know that's how i almost felt like so also those emotions were one of the reasons why it was such much more impact and i'm not saying my childhood was tough but i experienced it tough that is also different some people have much tougher childhoods and they they're okay they don't mind so it's also how i experienced and i experienced it that's difficult very stressful and anyway so so that also was one of the reasons why i think i was so deflated after winning the title so satisfied there was also like okay if i don't win another match my my career has been worthwhile yeah try try getting motivated with that emotion in your head you know fascinating i mean i i can i can really relate to the sort of climbing the the peak of the mountain and then thinking okay well now what you know yeah i can really relate to that um has how how has it affected you now like as an as an adult you're you and i are similar age we're in our 50s you know you're you're a parent to adult children and how is it if how is your life kind of influenced how you look back on it all now yeah i look very positive on everything you know like for my parents point of view they did it because they loved me they did they thought the best they good so with my childhood i'm completely at peace and and uh doesn't mean that it wasn't stressful for me but uh i am i'm very much at peace so i think that's important you know i think the women title probably helped that feeling at peace but still you know um i'm happy with that because i i know friends who still cannot let go of their childhood you know still cannot look at childhood pictures and they're 60 or 55 60 so i'm happy um with that you know and and my career has been yeah so nice and and winning the title is just amazing i mean especially the women on title i mean this year it's 30 years i'm going back there i'm going to be because i want 30 years three times normally i'm only one time three times in the royal box and uh invited and i'm after after the tournament I always come back also this year with friends to play tennis on the grounds and yeah life is really nice you know and uh and I'm happy that my wife and I were together since 94 so that's 32 years and my our kids still want to hang out with us actually we're now on our way to have dinner with them and we go to a movie and it was their idea you know so yeah uh um and And on top of that, I have the best job I could imagine, thanks to tennis also.

2:14:27And I was able to start my foundation.

2:14:32So to really give back to the society, to give back to the community. So, yeah, it's been so nice, you know, like a lot of things, you know, I could have won more Grand Slams. I could have, yeah, whatever. A lot of things could have happened, but it's been so all positive in a way. I feel like, like I said, I feel lucky with everything. And the only place I'm not lucky is with the lottery, I guess. But all the other stuff, I feel I've only had luck in my life. How often do people remind you of your Wimbledon title? How often do you think about it? I think about it, I think, every day in a way.

2:15:15you know i have a little trophy in my room and and and not like uh but i don't know you know it somehow so it's not like i'm thinking back to the match or uh yeah i don't know probably a lot of people say it's sad but you know it's part of me you know so yeah i i you know i'm sure if you win like many many titles uh grandstand titles you think different but for me it's only one you know so one is uh yeah really special very special i i cherish it probably more than somebody who wins like 20 titles like roger or rafa or novek i don't know maybe i'm not sure and sampras and that's the final question really is sampras is one of those people you say you're in awe of because of all those titles he won but you had a 6-4 winning record against him how did you do it Yeah, that's why I'm happy I'm born in this era.

2:16:11Because Sampas had a weakness, especially against me. His backhand could break down and was not so great. So I could attack that. Now when I look at the players, I'm like, how would I play against Sinner? No idea. Really, I have no idea. Would I attack on the backhand? No, not a good idea. Would I attack on the forehand? No, not a good idea either. Like, okay, make him move? No, he's very quick. And same with Alcaraz and all those other players.

2:16:40And actually, I was almost a little bit unlucky because I played him in US Open. And there was quarter finals. I was set up and I was 6-2 up in a tiebreaker to go two sets to love up. And I lost that set somehow. And I lost that match. So that was a shame. Anyway, so yeah, I really felt I had a chance against him. And that's why, for me, the worst opponent, which I have won nine records against, was Courier. Big serve, big ground shots, and mentally tough also. I mean, Agassi, in a way, was the same kind of player, but against him was better. But I think Courier was mentally more strong somehow than Agassi, I guess.

2:17:21I don't know. I was actually thinking the other day, like, why did I have, like, I had a 3-4 record against Agassi? and to be honest the last match didn't count because for me because it was in Queens and that was like too much the next match I retired I think because my elbow was so bad and I couldn't and

2:17:44but Courier like in a way same player but he had my number I didn't like that you can't beat them all but you'll always be the Wimbledon champion Richard it's lovely to hear your memories I beat him once actually and that was in a way thanks to the umpire also we're 5-0 in the third set in Antwerp which was very important with that match because I won I became top 10 for the first time in 92 and I went to the World Tour Finals but 5-0 and it was a bad call from the umpire and he got so upset and then didn't recover until the match was finished basically so I won 7-5 I won the next two games basically so yeah a horrible experience against Courier yeah no no there was um yeah that was exactly but you can't win them all but uh yeah women champion it's and you know what i also did actually that's uh that's that's there was last year in times you could write uh there was a writing contest and it's called dear london and you could write to london how special i wrote i wrote didn't win didn't even second, third or tenth but for me London is so special so I wrote about what special memories I have of being in Wimbledon and that London really had such a big impact on my life so it was actually very nice I think I have it somewhere, I'll send it to you please do, we'd love to see it please send it so I knew I was not going to win what a lovely thought A little bit I was hoping.

2:19:19I thought this must be, it must be an original letter. I don't think anyone in the Champions is going to write. That sounds amazing to me. I absolutely love it. Please send it. So it was called Dear London or something. And yeah, like I said, I never heard back from the people. So it's not like, oh, it was close. We almost bet you didn't win. But no. So I came in like number 8 ,000 probably or something like that. I don't know. But I'll write it. I'll send it to you. That's a cool story. Listen, enjoy movie night. thank you very much for your time Richard thank you it was very nice to talk to you take care my friend all the best and Richard did share that letter with us and when we all read it it completely stopped us in our tracks I'm going to read it to you now just as a bit of back story here the Dear London competition was a letter writing contest launched by Letters Live in partnership with the Times and people from around the world were invited to write a personal letter to London, whether to the city itself, its people, places, memories or what it represents to them.

2:20:27The competition received more than 3 ,000 entries, including many handwritten submissions and they were narrowed down to a long list of 50 and then a short list of five by an independent judging panel that included Benedict Cumberbatch, of all people. And the winning letter written by Keryn Lee Nell was selected for its vivid and heartfelt portrayal of London and was awarded the honour of being read live on stage at a Letters Live event at the Royal Albert Hall. And look, as moving as what you're about to hear is, having read through some of the shortlisted entries and the winner, I think I do understand more why Richards wasn't selected because it's not specifically about London although the fact that it wasn't picked up by some sort of editor of some sort at the Times or passed to the sports team or whatever the fact that this is just presumably sitting in a sitting in an intray somewhere at the Times potentially never to be unearthed until that moment at the end of David's interview is staggering really, but luckily that moment did happen and we are now able to read you Richard Krycek's entry.

2:21:44He says, Dear London, a fortnight in London has set me free. My story begins a few years before I was born, with my parents fleeing Prague in the middle of the night. After the Prague Spring, the Soviet Union had invaded Czechoslovakia. My parents yearned for freedom, but they had to leave behind their families, who would be harassed by the authorities about their departure and whereabouts for years to come. My parents' dream destination was Sweden, but their money ran out and they ended up on a camping site in the Netherlands. I was born a refugee in 1971, and when I was five years old, I received Dutch nationality.

2:22:27From the very first day, my father wanted to make a difference. He wanted their escape to be worth it, all that sacrifice and financial hardship. His degrees turned out to be worthless in the Netherlands. He had to retake all his exams, practising with the dictionary every night. To blow off steam, he liked to play tennis. And with the rise of a new Swedish phenomenon, the tennis champion Bjorn Borg, my father suddenly had a dream. His son would be a tennis champion too. I wasn't asked. I had wanted to be a dentist, but my path was set. I practised and I practised early hours before school, late hours after work, every school holiday, even with my broken leg in a casket.

2:23:13And I won. A lot. But if I lost, the air was thick with disappointment. I wasn't allowed to take the car home with my dad. He made me walk. We travelled to European tournaments with our old caravan and I have great memories of me and my dad watching the Borg-McEnroe-Wimbledon finals on our black and white TV. Those were the good times. Selling our fridge to pay for tennis lessons were the bad times. I loved tennis, but it also made me feel very stressed. We were often ridiculed at tennis clubs for being this caravan family with a weird dad who said his kid was like Mozart. my parents screaming matches brought police officers to our door and they ended up divorcing after that I cut my dad out of my life I yearned for a father not a coach I kept playing and I kept winning but my tennis career held a certain heaviness like I was carrying my family history on my back had it all been worth it and then there was that magical fortnight in London When I lifted the trophy, I felt light as a feather.

2:24:23I could finally breathe. In the middle of the roaring crowd, I remember thinking, Dad, did you see me? My name is Richard Krychek, and in 1996, I won Wimbledon. My dad did see me, and eventually we reconnected, but this time like father and son. Dear London, every time I see your skyline, I get this tingly feeling in my heart. A fortnight in London has set me free.

2:25:00It's not a story I had ever heard before. I knew that Richard's background was from the Czech Republic, from Czechia. his name would suggest that his surname but I didn't know his history with his father and the fact that he volunteered that you know suggested it during that interview and then just sent me that letter just quite happy for us to have it quite happy for us to read it out quite happy for us to include it in our newsletter I just hope that everybody feels as moved by it as I did reading it and yeah I think what it told me as well Catherine when you read it and when Hannah read it you know we circulated it amongst ourselves is that you never quite know what you're going to get from somebody and who they are because I don't think people knew that this was a side to Richard Krejcik I certainly didn't and you know he's a very he's a very low-key person isn't he he's not shouting his story from the rooftops he wasn't he wasn't then and he is he is now and you know it's wonderful to hear how genuinely at peace with it all he seems but it also you know hearing hearing him talk about elements of that with you David and hinting at what he went through with his father I always think of you know it's all he can say it's worth it because of the success he had and how that enabled him to reunite with his father and and find peace but you know for every Richard Krychek there's all the stories you don't hear about where they don't have success and and they don't they don't find peace um it's incredibly poignant something I found quite interesting while researching Krycek and this tournament in 1996 was that Agassi had said something earlier in the season that Krycek could apparently get injured just thinking about injury.

2:27:22And this was a theme of Krycek's career at this point. He would have spells on the sideline, he would retire from matches. And I thought the writer Simon Barnes Barnes wrote something very interesting, diagnosing that actually taking injury breaks was Krejcik's way of finding relief and a refuge so that he doesn't have to be on tour. Barnes wrote, for the stressed and depressed, there is the relief in injury. A place free from recrimination, free from guilt, free from blame. One of the few comfortable places to be found in his world. so I think the point he's making is not that Krychek was faking injuries necessarily or making them up which seems to be sort of perhaps what Agassi was hinting at but that actually there was something deeper rooted within Krychek that meant he found life on on Tor hard and he wore the scars of of his father's treatment of him and setting expectations of him.

2:28:33And, you know, Krijak was a guy who withdrew from his Australian Open semifinal in 1992 with a shoulder injury. And, you know, I'm sure there was an injury there, but also perhaps it was kind of easier to lose that way than by losing it in tennis terms because of everything that his father had sort of done to him through childhood. So, yeah, I just thought that was an interesting point from the time, and it all kind of makes a lot more sense now, having heard Krycek's letter, which was so beautiful, and, yeah, we're so grateful that he shared it with us. One thing I picked up listening to the interviews back-to-back again this morning was that both players considered not playing.

2:29:29the tournament i mean maybe not seriously but they're but it's clearly gone through both of the heads when they were at a low ebb you know neither one of them in form or or has ever done anything at wimbledon before of any great note um i i can confirm that uh darren cahill did indeed win his final match of his career against richard krejcik at that 1996 wimbledon which i told richard about today anything that's very funny um and also just on the on the subject of the 1998 Wimbledon semi-final that that Richard played against Goran Ivanovic I remember watching this from from the ATP offices in Monte Carlo in the company of the then European head Zeljko Frenulevic who's a great Croatian champion of the past French Open champion of 1970 so he was the executive vice president of the european section of the atp and we're watching goran and like goran eventually gets over the line in this match and i was pleased for him you know because he still hadn't won wimbledon and he'd won this final set i think 15 13 and and zhoko said yeah but he's wasted all of his energy because he was two sets up and he should have won in straight sets you know and sure enough he goran went and lost in five sets to um to pete sampras a couple days later um and and you got that image of him just looking distraught and you know um with the plate yeah um but uh anyway goran has sent a message about the 1996 priest and he says it was just a friend who'd never seen tennis before so i brought him over so he could watch no massaging took place no massaging okay

2:31:20well two big bombshells to end on what a show honestly honestly one of my favorites because it surprised me so much um yeah and i yeah i love i love sort of just a list of random dispatches from a from a tournament so yeah incredible work at the wimbledon library matt and wonderful work with the interviews, David. And yeah, set us up nicely for Wimbledon. I'm going to go and watch some Wimbledon qualifying. My dad's there today cheering on Joanna Garland as we speak. I've sent him to watch Joanna Garland and Bianca Andreescu. So a depressing day in store for my dad. But you never know, David. That's it.

2:32:12You just never know. Words to live by. Thank you all so much for listening, for being friends of the Tennis Podcast, for making this happen. We hope you're as pumped about the Wimbledon fortnight as we are. We will be there from Thursday in what is being advertised by BBC News Alerts as the most ferocious day of weather the UK has seen in living memory. So pray for us. We still can't wait. Thank you for listening. We'll speak to you then.