Canada - Mboko stars, but what to make of Naomi Osaka?

15:39Catherine Whitaker:And suddenly she was kind of sulky. She was kind of pouting. She was just giving off really bad negative energy. It was just a really tough watch. Her tennis deserted her. She stopped sort of moving for the ball. she she tried to hit out too much her forehand left the building like and as as as great as Mboko was playing I actually found that the Osaka of it all was overtaking my feelings more I felt I didn't enjoy it I didn't like watching watching this match because of that and look I I really felt for her i don't i don't know exactly what the what the cause was i don't know whether she knows to be honest um because everything had been upside through this tournament until that point you know like the movement had looked better she'd been getting tight wind she'd been swatting good players aside she had all this momentum she's set up in the final and then it just went and never looked like coming back.

16:52Matt Roberts:Yeah, the speed with which the fragility was exposed was very, very alarming. I would say it looked to me like the catalyst for it was the crowd. Mboko gave the crowd something to get their teeth into. The energy changed. And it was incredibly pro-Mboko to the extent of cheering for double faults and that kind of thing. There's a debate to be had about whether a line was crossed, but I would say that was the catalyst rather than my interpretation. This is, you know, big time armchair psychology, but as the catalyst rather than the cause, I think the cause of what was going on with Naomi Osaka is internal.

17:40like that is somebody that plainly to me has a fundamental lack of self-esteem

17:46Matt Roberts:like the whole the whole throughout that third set I had some Madison Keys therapy speak ringing in my head of you know if you're looking for results and achievements on the tennis courts to plug a hole inside you, you're going to be disappointed.

18:08Matt Roberts:And if you told me at the start of last week, Naomi Osaka is going to win a match from match point down against a good player. She's going to win exactly the kind of match that she wants to win. She's then going to storm her way through her next three, I think, subsequent matches and reach the final. and you're going to end up feeling net negative about Naomi Osaka as a tennis player relative to how you felt before this tournament, I just would not have believed it. I couldn't have wrapped my head around how that could be possible and yet that is how I feel. David, you are a more sensible sleeper than I am, so you watched this on Catch Up today.

18:53Matt Roberts:What did you make of it all?

18:54David Law:yeah it's a it's such a complicated set of feelings that I have thinking about Naomi Osaka generally because it's this and it's not just this incident this this is one of so many moments in her career where I've I've veered dramatically in how I not feel about her but kind of because i like her i like i like her i love her tennis and i i hope the best for her i think she's she finds some of this really hard this this environment um and and she's constantly battling that i think and this was another installment of that ongoing battle which i which i don't think she'll ever win i don't think she'll ever lose i think it'll just carry on being this struggle and look most people struggle in life to to varying degrees at one point or another and we've seen with her uh that the press conference is that she she decided not to attend which you know at the time we were outraged by some of it and and and i i grew to feel differently about it as as time went on and and when i learned more about you know why she felt as she felt and And I sort of thought, OK, well, here's somebody that I don't feel like I just want to judge because there's a set of rules.

20:23David Law:And, you know, I I I one of the slight disappointments is because she didn't go to a press conference. We don't we weren't nobody was able to ask her really. And nobody was able to find out from her how she felt and why she was feeling that she but maybe she wasn't in a position to articulate that at the time. I'm still hopeful that that'll come, you know, and that she'll have time to process this and feel better about it. I did wonder at the time whether she might be getting some flashbacks from the Serena US Open final when the whole crowd was against her. But in a much more just angry way against the umpire rather than against her or just being pro Serena in that case.

21:10this was this was a mainly i felt was a pro and boco crowd i mean there were there were moments of

21:16David Law:of you know cheering double folds and stuff like that which is which i always think must be really tough but i end up feeling like yes i know people are angry about the the post-match on court interview when she didn't give any credit to mboko i i know that people find it really tough to stomach that stuff and i understand why but i also think well there's somebody who just looks really like she's having a tough time and you're being made to speak and i just kind of i give people a bit more of a pass for that especially her yeah i mean look i think two things can be

21:54Matt Roberts:true right like i i don't think runners-up should be made to speak i think just because some people and Karen Hashanov is an example of this, find it within themselves to do an incredibly magnanimous job of it doesn't mean it's not a pretty insane thing to expect a losing player to do. I think staying on the court at all for the ceremony is a pretty underratedly bananas element of this sport. So look, I do agree with you. I have sympathy with anybody being made to address a crowd, especially a crowd that's been against you. But I think that can be true. And you can also criticise how she handled that in the moment, kind of making allowances for the circumstances or not.

22:42Matt Roberts:Like, it was really bad. It was really bad, not because she was upset and disappointed. Like we've seen upset and disappointed in those sorts of scenarios. And I think people have give that a lot of grace and and sympathy like this. She came off as rude and entitled, I think was that that was a bit of a tough scene. You know, she was applauded up to the microphone and she said thanks, I guess. in a very childish way and then sort of gave out a list of thank yous. Forgot to thank Mboko, forgot to congratulate Mboko, which I'm sure she does feel terrible about after the fact. But it still happened and it still is now overshadowing the achievements of this 18-year-old who idolised Naomi Osaka growing up and she had said that in a press conference earlier in the week and Asaka was asked about it and said she was really chuffed to hear that and it just left such a sour feeling.

23:58Matt Roberts:And look, I don't know what was going on for why she didn't want to come to press but I think that was a missed opportunity for her to front up to it because, as you say, I think those are tough situations. If you come to press afterwards and you say, look, I was just, I was, my mind was swirling. That didn't go great. I would like to set things right here and now. I think that puts it to bed, to be honest. So it's a shame she didn't come to press, but I also do respect and agree with the right to not do that if you're not in a fit mental state to do so. But personally, I don't give Osaka an entirely free pass on this one, despite all of the circumstances, if you like.

24:50Matt Roberts:Where do you fall, Matt?

24:51Catherine Whitaker:I was going to say, or you can come to press Serena Savalanka style and double down on everything you've said in the on-court speech.

25:02Catherine Whitaker:In the moment, I thought, like, gosh, I don't like that. like it's almost a reflex I feel like that you just congratulate your opponent so the fact that she didn't do it almost in the moment felt a little bit sort of deliberate because she had those little jabs at the at the crowd as well didn't she saying you know I hope you had a good night and thank you I guess like it kind of seemed in the moment like she knew what she was doing but I have to say on reflection I have I have thought about it a little bit more and she did she did give some quotes she didn't come to press did she but i think the wta asked her one or two questions and and and put those quotes out and look she says in that that she forgot i think she was trying to get out of there as quickly as she possibly could um she said in in those quotes that umboko played amazingly well i i i definitely do give her a lot of grace in that moment because I think, like you said, I think it is hard to expect people to say the right thing in the moment.

26:11Catherine Whitaker:I think we were more critical of Sabalenka about the press conference. Okay, we didn't love the on-court things that she said, but we understood in the heat of the moment, you've just lost the grandstand final. Osaka's just totally lost her game, totally lost the chance to win her biggest title for many many years she is not going to be her best self in that on court interview she said the right things in the in the kind of post-match and yeah so i i think she's going to get hammered for it i think she probably is already getting hammered for it and i i feel like i don't love to see you know i feel like the reaction to these things is always is disproportionate to the offence.

26:55Catherine Whitaker:It's not great, but it's also not that big of a deal to me. It's kind of where I stand.

27:05Matt Roberts:How do you feel about sort of net positive or negative for Osaka? Like, I've seen a lot of people saying like, OK, but Thomas Witkowoski is a really good pair of hands for guiding her through this situation. And yes, I agree with that. I really rate him and I rate that decision. And she's reached the final with him in her corner, the first event together. But I don't know. Again, this is me doing armchair psychology. I'm not qualified for. But what I saw there was a human being with problems holding her back on the tennis court that a coach can't solve. That was what I saw.

27:45Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, the tennis signs, really positive for everything we've spoken about today and on the pod on Monday as well. I do think he's had an impact there and I think hopefully that will only grow with time. But as you said, that seemed pretty deeper and entrenched the sort of issues troubling her in that final. and I don't know whether Mick Karofsky can solve those. I don't think so. So I kind of end up feeling more positive about the tennis but less positive about kind of the place Naomi Osaka is in generally. So it's a net. Not good, really.

28:39David Law:see I don't agree because I didn't expect Naomi Osaka to be in a different place to this anyway really like where she is I think that this is life this is her life and I think that this is likely not to just change that much I think there will be tough times for her but I still think she people can suffer and still do well in their chosen vocation.

29:10Matt Roberts:But she suffered and didn't do well.

29:12David Law:This time.

29:13Matt Roberts:It stopped her from doing well yesterday. I understand.

29:16David Law:But over the course of two weeks, she ended up in the final and she nearly won the thing. She's not going to come across this sort of situation all the time. And even the fact that she has, and even if she does again, she might be able to learn from it. this may be the thing that she can use to analyze and improve. I don't know. Listen, I can't know that for sure. But two weeks ago, she wasn't playing this sort of tennis at all, and she wasn't winning matches regularly. She had Patrick Moritoglu as a coach. Sorry, I don't believe in him as a coach, personally. And I don't think he was helping her.

30:03David Law:I think she is more likely to be helped by this current guy but just generally I think that this is a real step in the right direction because this is way better than she's done before I do think she needs I'm very interested to hear what she has to say about this the next time we see her but yeah overall I'm still going to take a net positive from it personally

30:29Matt Roberts:I hope you're right because 24 hours ago I was so excited about this from Naomi Osaka so excited

30:36Catherine Whitaker:well you heard it on the last podcast

30:37Matt Roberts:didn't you? it's not what it was 24 hours ago I don't feel like that we were all so back on the hype train

30:42David Law:but I just

30:43Matt Roberts:I don't know I was really alarmed by what that looked to me like it revealed about her soul to be honest like I feel really sad about Naomi Osaka's soul right now and I really hope it was circumstance specific. I really do and I agree with you. She's not going to face that very, very often. Potentially only in Montreal. I've learned a lot about Montreal tennis fans this week. They are into it. But I will say I think it was that circumstance exposing something about her rather than that necessarily being specific, totally specific to the circumstance. Like making the parallel to that 2018 US Open final and like how she was able to deal with that in the moment and not take it personally or not take it personally to the extent that it hampered her tennis.

31:38Matt Roberts:Like yesterday, she instantly took it totally personally to the point where her tennis fell apart. And that was really tough to see. and like really human. I'm not sure how brilliantly I would deal with somebody cheering my double fault. So I think they'd get tired after a while because there would be so many of them. Like extremely human, but also not necessarily a signifier of being in a great place. But I sure do hope you're right, David. And I feel better about the people she has in her corner now than she did before. I'm going to have to ask you some big picture questions about Victoria Mboko that will definitely get criticised for getting ahead of ourselves and over hyping her and risking all sorts of hyperinflation but I need to ask you both whether Victoria Mboko is in the US Open mix I've done it, there you go it would be a dereliction of duty if I didn't do it over to you I'm running away from the microphone

32:49David Law:it's an absolutely fair question but no she's not

32:53Catherine Whitaker:no she's not for me either I think the reason why is because it was one kind of in the image of what winning your first title should be in that it was quite messy like and I don't know she played great at times as well she did a lot of good things that we've talked about but she's not the finished article you know this is not sort of someone arriving on the scene and just like announcing themselves and beating all the best players in the world like and thinking where the weakness is there you know and that kind of thing I'm thinking you know it's not it's not Bianca Andreescu to me in 2019 when she she was kind of similar-ish trajectory you know to Mboko and obviously one in Canada just before the US Open.

33:48Catherine Whitaker:And I think, I don't know whether the mix was a thing at the time. I think it might have been. I think we might have declared Andreescu in the mix because, you know, she should be so many good players throughout that season. And it felt like, just felt like she sort of was ready to win a Grand Slam title. I don't have that feeling about Mboko. And that's not to say that she's not really good. but you know she wasn't having to play igas fiontek had a slam and sabalenka had a slam you know i just think the level is higher than she kind of showed this week to win this title even though it was a great run in itself and i'm generally you know really upbeat and high on umboko but i'm not at she's going to win a slam territory also a bit worried about the wrist to be quite honest.

34:39Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I was going to say

34:40Matt Roberts:she's also got a wrist injury which it clearly warms up as the match goes on. I was really worried about the extent to which it was troubling her in the first set yesterday particularly on serve where obviously you have to snap the wrist. But it seemed to improve but it's obviously not great and she's made the decision to not go to Cincinnati which I think is the right one. But also it's an awkward decision. isn't it? It's like if you win Madrid before the French Open, like it's not the best one to win sort of timeline wise because there's now quite a long gap. It's quite hard to keep up the momentum, but obviously it's momentum versus sort of physical preservation.

35:26Matt Roberts:But the wrist isn't nothing.

35:27Catherine Whitaker:No, I mean, she did it. She seemed to do it on that fall against Rebecca in the semifinals. She fell hard on it and had to get it taped up. and then I think she had an MRI or certainly went to the hospital in between the semi-final and the final and I was worried about it going into the final and as you said, worried at the start. I think even if it wasn't bothering her physically, it was definitely in her head at the start. She was sort of adjusting it and yeah, it's definitely a little factor of concern for the next few weeks, hopefully not a long-term thing. Her technique on the forehand though There is, you know, like there's a reason like technique's important, you know, and I do worry about injury when players have a bit of an odd technique.

36:16Catherine Whitaker:And coupled with, you know, just the impact on the wrist plus the technique, a little bit of concern there.

36:25Matt Roberts:Everything about her is giving backhand list, Matt. both the quality obviously of the backhand the fact that she's having success and having a slightly dodgy forehand this is right in the Matt Roberts sweet spot

36:41Catherine Whitaker:anyone hoping for an announcement I'm afraid is going to be disappointed she remains on the watch list I'm pretty happy with the five we've got at the moment on the backhand list but she's coming

36:57Matt Roberts:wait until you watch Belinda Bencic use her protected ranking to play mixed doubles with Zverev at the US Open. I think that's when the change will come. I think you'll find that, the list will find that tough to stomach. Just incidentally, just in on Threads, Naomi Osaka, famously a Threads user. They are out there. And shared to Instagram she said, thanks Montreal, it's been a really great run. I also want to say sorry and congratulations to Victoria. You played a great match and have an amazing career ahead. I realised I didn't congratulate you on the court. Honestly, I was in a daze and I was so focused on not having the same speech as Indian Wells 2018 finals or the Jenny Jennifer situation that I tried to make my speech as short as possible.

37:42Matt Roberts:Thanks everyone for the week. See you in New York. So that's well done. That's a good thing to have done without question. Do any of us have any, not to sort of end the Mboko portion on a downer but do we have any concern that like this is too much too soon from Boko like is it actually a good thing to suddenly have huge success at 18 like is it actually long-term better to build a career and a ranking

38:12David Law:it's a great question it's a great question because there are so many examples on both sides where I have felt in hindsight certainly oh and I got very excited and I might have been part of the hype train. No great surprise there of various players and then felt as though collectively we've all put too much pressure on a player and that they've suffered as a result of it. And others, you know, it's just been a platform and they've been off. Maybe I am just an optimist. I just think she just looks the part. Maybe. Yes. I love the way she carries herself on the court. I love the excitement. I love the the daring game that is that seems to have control she just looks like she's been doing this for years when us when i watch her on the court and i i like what i see at least around her team and i like when matt futterman has spoken to them i just get i get good vibes and i i do worry about when somebody becomes a big star everybody tries to jump on the bandwagon a bit you know and and i think that canada you saw the appetite for for a another idol and that does sometimes worry me and i do i do i i just think basically bianca andrescu has just been terribly unlucky i don't think that there was anything wrong with the hype she got she's just been terribly unlucky with the the injuries mostly and the pandemic and just things going wrong um so i hope for better luck for victoria mboko i don't i don't see much there that she can't handle if she's just given a little bit of help along the way but i don't know what it's like i've not been in it i've only witnessed it from the outside but i wish i really wish the best for her yeah me too i loved every time they cut to

40:14Matt Roberts:the mboko players box and it was just a row of women like amazing and then a dog appeared after she won like it was so great and there was obviously her family was sitting slightly separately weren't they and they were an amazing vibe like I agree like the people around you are everything in these sorts of scenarios a lot a lot is about who their agent is I think and that's kind of a murky part of it all that it's like quite a big picture in the in the puzzle the sort of commercial decisions that are made and how long term of you, the commercial people around a player are prepared to take. So, yeah, there's a lot of unknowns there, but nobody's doubting the kind of raw materials.

41:01Matt Roberts:But that is kind of philosophically a general question, isn't it, about breakout success at a young age. Okay, anything else from Montreal? Coco Gough and McCartney Kessler won the doubles title. Good win for Meredith, David.

41:20David Law:Yep. Doing well. And yeah, I saw a few bits from that. I think that's, my guess is that that's just really a good feeling for Coco Goff to take away from this tournament. I really think she needed this because it's been so many dodgy results of late and no real feel-good moving on from a tournament. Now she gets one. very interested to see what she does with that going in Cincinnati

41:48Catherine Whitaker:Go-Kart was their team name which I enjoyed

41:53David Law:Excellent

41:53Matt Roberts:Oh that's actually good. It's very good isn't it You like that David, you hate a team name I quite like that Who is Disco David? I don't know this man

42:03David Law:I liked Sarandi because it had a you know a pun, a good one that's actually quite good By the way, did you see that Mboka and Osaka are not playing Cincinnati?

42:20Catherine Whitaker:Yes. I saw.

42:22Matt Roberts:Yes. We talked about that.

42:24David Law:Yeah.

42:26Matt Roberts:So hang on. Just rowing back. Punning is the key.

42:32Catherine Whitaker:I think it being good is a good pun. I don't like puns typically.

42:37David Law:So if I do laugh, then they're good.

42:40Matt Roberts:Okay.

42:41Catherine Whitaker:David also, I believe. You laughed at Sarandi, did you?

42:45David Law:You laughed at that.

42:46Matt Roberts:That's funny, yeah. Actually funny.

42:49Catherine Whitaker:Didn't you claim to come up with Sarandi? I'm sure that was a thing.

42:55David Law:Oh, well, that's probably why I liked it.

42:56Catherine Whitaker:I think that was why you liked it. I think that was it.

42:59Matt Roberts:Yeah, that's ringing a bell. Okay, well, I like go-kart, but I don't have such an issue with the team names as you do, David. so we're still learning the parameters of your feelings about team names. It's a work in progress, folks. Just before we move on to talk about Toronto, I'm sure it's pretty obvious that all of us here at the Tennis Podcast are pumped for the US Open, particularly Disco David, obviously, and that includes Fan Week. Fan Week runs from August 18th to 23rd. We will be there. We're flying on Monday, August the 18th, which is a week on Monday, which is absolutely wild. And you can be there too, free and up close as the players prepare for the tournament in featured practice sessions.

43:49Matt Roberts:Those are on Grandstand and on Louis Armstrong Stadium. You can also watch the US Open qualifying tournament as players try to win a coveted spot in the main draw. watching qualifying is always a massive sort of like if you know you know thing to do at any at any Grand Slam it's a really cool thing off the court uh US Open Fan Week kicks off with the inaugural this one's for you David silent disco on Monday August 18th your flight gets your flight gets in just before ours you can take yourself off to the silent disco um ever been to one of those? Do you know what one of those is? I have no idea

44:26David Law:what it is. I'll do some detective work.

44:28Matt Roberts:Would you like to guess, based on the name, what a silent disco is? Do you dance with no music?

44:35Catherine Whitaker:Don't you dance to your own music?

44:38Matt Roberts:You have headphones on. Oh, so I can have George Michael.

44:42David Law:Brilliant. I love Ram. Excellent.

44:45Matt Roberts:Yeah, David just grooving to fast love in his own little world. Disco David. Where was I? Silent Disco is on Monday, the 18th of August. And in a separate ticketed event, as we've been talking about, you can watch many of your favourite stars in action in the reimagined Mixed Doubles Championship presented by Vital Proteins. That is over August 19th and 20th. And as you probably know, the entry list of the Mixed Doubles is pretty spectacular with players such as Yannick Sinner, Igor Shontek, Carlos Alcaraz and even Venus Williams set to take part. And Jack Draper is once again looking for a partner, isn't he?

45:27Matt Roberts:Because Paola Bedossa is just withdrawn from the US Open. So back on the scrap heap for Jack. For the full Fan Week schedule, go to www.usopen.org forward slash Fan Week. We hope to see you there. On to Toronto and a maiden Masters 1000 title for Ben Shelton. He beat Karen Hashanov in a thrilling final 6-7, 6-4, 7-6. You also got wins over Alex de Manor and Taylor Fritz in the semifinals. I watched the conclusion of the first set, Matt. I think you did as well because it sort of dovetailed with the end of the Montreal final.

46:12Catherine Whitaker:Such a long time to play Montreal and Toronto and the finals clashed. I mean, what the fuck?

46:20Matt Roberts:There were sort of 21 hours in the day since Monday. And 21 hours when there was no single tennis being played. All the tennis clashed. Yeah. It was disgraceful. A scheduling disgrace. But...

46:36Catherine Whitaker:Glad I got that off my chest. Sorry. Thank you.

46:40Matt Roberts:Matt and I watched Karen Hashinov take the thrilling opening set on the tie break and then woke up to news that Ben Shelton had won the subsequent two sets and won the title. So David, as somebody with a healthier body clock than us, or certainly than me, tell us how Ben Shelton won this match.

46:59David Law:Oh, this was a good match. I mean, look, it wasn't the story that Mboku and Osaka was, obviously, but it was kind of what we referenced a few days ago when talking about how not having big names, not having the sort of Sinner and Alcaraz and Djokovic and Draper gives other players chance to shine. And you kind of want people to step up, really. I expected it would be more likely to be Zverev and Fritz that ended up in the final. And fair play to these two. They stopped that from happening. And I actually think that Karen Hatchinov, I mean, I know this is the first time he's really knocked on the door to this degree since he won Paris.

47:45David Law:You know, it's a long time ago now. What is it, seven years ago? Six, seven years ago? But I think he's been really good all year. I've sensed that, I mean, he hasn't necessarily had all the wins to go with some of the form that I've seen. I've kind of thought he's plateaued in recent years. He's been good to a certain degree. Never looks like a threat against the very best players. I felt more that he's a threat this year and I felt more conviction to his game and the win over Zverev you know an example of that just you know somebody was really struggling to beat in recent years stepped up got the win in the tie break there in this one he he was set points down in the first set and and really Shelton should have won that first set but again Hachinov took it from him and I'm going through this second set and I'm and I'm watching it and thinking I think Hachinov's got him here.

48:40David Law:I think he's just a bit too steady and a bit too relentless. And I'm not quite sure where the injection comes from in Shelton's game. Because I'm still trying to work out what sort of player he is, really. What sort of level he's got in him. He's obviously a very good player. And he rises to the occasion at the Grand Slams. But I'm thinking, well, has he got another level? And I thought in this match he showed he did. because at, I wrote this down, he's a set and 3-4 down. He was 15-30 down. So he's right on the brink of defeat, really, here. You know, it's one, it's two more points and he's a breaker served down and Hashinov serving for this match.

49:22David Law:And from there, I felt like Shelton showed an injection that I wasn't really sure he had. Obviously, he's got the big serve, but this was more than that. The point he played at a 7-3-4-15-30 was a drop shot, brought his opponent in, hit a lob over his head, got a fairly cautious smash, and then passed him from there. And I thought, wow, that's clear thinking. So that's 30-all. Then he hit a fake backhand drop shot, poked it down the line, and then did a cross-court backhand passing shot off the back of that. So he's got game point, then a massive serve to hold. So that puts him at four games all.

50:03Next game, he comes out and absolutely levels the ball three times for clean winners to break serve.

50:12David Law:He went down, loved 40 in the next game. He had to save four break points, but he got out of it. And I just thought, you know, he used in the post-match on-court interview, he used the word clutch which is a word that I I try at my utmost not to use and actually to to not listen to when when people use it because I don't like the word right the problem is it's just so bloody useful in as much as I can't think of an equivalent in that we use over this side of the Atlantic that means the same thing and actually is as relevant and because that's exactly what he was he stepped up when he needed to and delivered in the clutch oh god but anyway that's what he did and hang on clutch or the clutch well they bet they used both he just said i was clutch i don't know i don't know but i think what it means is when i really mattered i was there and then in the deciding set it was just you know frankly i i fast forwarded quite a lot of the games because they were just zipping by 40 15 game 40 love game you know it was like that and then i I stopped at the final set tie break and really took that in and again he was clutch he was and he just I don't have an issue with clutch David you don't

51:34Matt Roberts:you used to yeah I think I think I was an idiot like David

51:44David Law:yeah I'm starting to think I was an idiot too

51:47Matt Roberts:like it's a useful word

51:50David Law:But that's what language is for.

51:53Matt Roberts:It's not offensive. It's not gendered. That's a win.

51:57David Law:We're learning and growing.

51:59Matt Roberts:Look at us.

52:00Catherine Whitaker:We're going to be using it all the time now.

52:02David Law:I know.

52:03Catherine Whitaker:People are going to get sick of it. They're going to be like, oh, talking about culture again.

52:07Matt Roberts:I've got more other things to be annoyed about now. The roster is less space on it.

52:13Catherine Whitaker:This is a total, total tangent. but how does, speaking of you being annoyed about things, how does Mboko winning Montreal as a wild card make you feel about your position?

52:31David Law:More growing.

52:32Matt Roberts:You shit, Matt. Look, it's a blow, definitely.

52:37Catherine Whitaker:Look, if you're going to be building a big case, you've got to be able to knock these arguments back. I thought you'd be ready. I thought you'd be ready for this.

52:48Matt Roberts:Well, no, because I present the pod. So I thought you've got your firm hand on the tiller here, Catherine. I can silence the media. Look, it's a blow, undoubtedly. And as I said last time we discussed this, which I can't remember what pod, but recently anyway, unfortunately, it was recently that I declared my views on Wildcard. that the variety of wildcards I most enjoy and most support are giving a leg up to young players. And if there was a sort of scientific way to protect that variety of wildcard, I might be on board with that. But, yeah, I'd still... It shouldn't have been in the draw. Yeah, it shouldn't have been in the draw.

53:43Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, go on.

53:44Matt Roberts:Take her trophy away now. Yeah. Yeah, Venus and Boko.

53:52David Law:By the way, great speeches after this match. And the other thing... Yes. And I particularly wanted to mention Hachinov because I don't feel like I've listened to many speeches from Hachinov over the years. I mean, I know he hasn't won that many tournaments, you know, but maybe I just haven't hung around for these speeches. but blimey neck i think that's probably it he is a grown-up he is a grown-up the way he talks i mean look and again i i know i i'm i perhaps look like i'm a hypocrite because i'm prepared to give a sarko so much of a pass but look i could i feel like i can do both i i loved listening to just talk about him and his kids he says we win together we lose together and he just he just he thanked everybody in a sort of really genuine kind of way and he really paid tribute to to shelton's family and and and how how good for for shelton how educated they are yeah i just i don't know just i thought wow this guy loves the sport he knows he's got a good deal he's earning a great living out of it and and sometimes we wonder we're looking for meaning and relevance as part of a narrative and of course we're going to do that and i don't know how much more he's got got in him but he certainly made me slightly rethink my my framing of him as a as a bloke

55:29Catherine Whitaker:disco david is a action of guy in in one episode i wasn't wasn't anticipating any of this um just um just on Shelton you know I think it's a this tournament you know when obviously Sinner's not in the draw and an Alcaraz is not in the draw it feels like an absolutely classic like how do you decipher meaning from that because you know I think Shelton's you know David was talking about who's going to step up I do feel like Shelton has actually kind of put himself in the conversation this year in terms of being kind of the next best guy if it's not Sinner it's not Alcraz I mean he's literally lost to Sinner and Alcraz at the slams hasn't he but five in the race right but he did need a win like this I think because you know he's been showing up at the slams which is great that's the most important thing but I don't think he'd ever been beyond the quarters at a Masters 1000 before and suddenly he's now broken through and actually He won one.

56:31Catherine Whitaker:He also hadn't had a top 10 win all year, but he's got two in a row against Dimenor and Taylor Fritz. And it was the Fritz match where I think that's the best I've seen Shelton play because he was so good from the baseline. And he was really good from the baseline against Dimenor as well. He won the long rallies against Alex Dimenor. Like, I wouldn't have thought that would be possible for Ben Shelton. He didn't win the long rallies against Hachinov, but he had his usual way of winning, which was to win the short rallies against Hakchanov. So he just had a bit more variety to his game. He was throwing in the slice a lot against Hakchanov, different pace balls.

57:09Catherine Whitaker:I think he exploited Fritz's movement in that matchup. It was just a lot of things that I thought Shelton did really well this tournament. And talking about him being clutch and him playing well in big moments, do you remember after he lost to Sinner at Wimbledon, he had a little bit of a crisis of confidence about that, where his serve deserted him in those big moments. I remember Matt Futterman was in that press conference and he came out of it a bit like, Shelton feels like he's maybe, if he's not delivering in those big moments, then kind of what is he as a tennis player? Because that's always been his calling card.

57:49Catherine Whitaker:And that was back this tournament, really back, won those three deciding set tie breaks to win the thing. That's extremely impressive, I think. Took care of De Menor and Fritz without needing them. So this is, this just feels like, it just feels like Shelton took a step this week in terms of a lot of things, you know, beating top 10 players, showing more to his game. And yet that question remains, did any of the things that he showed this week, will he be able to bring them against Sinner and Alcaraz? Because he says himself, when he plays Sinner, it's like he's playing a guy playing at two times speed.

58:27Catherine Whitaker:And he can't necessarily get into the rallies like he can against De Menor and Fritz. So it remains a fascination to me what Shelton's ceiling is. He might have the highest ceiling out of anyone that isn't Sinner and Alcaraz at the moment. But can he actually beat them? Like, I don't know if we learned that this week. because I just, it's such a different thing playing them to playing everyone else.

59:00Matt Roberts:Yeah, I thought about asking, it felt like, okay, well, I've got to ask the is Ben Shelton in the mix for the US Open question, but it's a mix of two, isn't it?

59:11Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, and look, I've said, I think there could be a US Open one day where Shelton takes advantage with the crowd behind him, with that game and all of that. I just don't, it doesn't seem to me like it's going to be this one. Sinner's got a lot of energy in the tank, you know, having had the three months off at the start of the year. He's playing so well, kind of the best 10 of his life. Al Karez, I think, is in a much better place than he was at last year's US Open, for example. Like, I don't see any reason now, a few weeks out, why Al Karez and Sinner are going to drop the level going into New York.

59:47Catherine Whitaker:And I still think, as great as Shelton was this week, I still think that needs to happen for Sheldon to actually win it, which might happen one year, but I wouldn't call it this year at the moment. Yeah.

1:00:03Matt Roberts:Having the highest ceiling of anybody but the two best players in the world whose floor is still higher than your ceiling is... Right.

1:00:14David Law:Yeah.

1:00:14Matt Roberts:It's like the Tom Womsgams quote about Greg inheriting five million, isn't it? You'll be the poorest rich person in America. No? Succession reference anybody? David, Disco David, I need you for my succession references.

1:00:36David Law:I don't know quite as if I know that you.

1:00:39Matt Roberts:Okay.

1:00:42Catherine Whitaker:One thing I would say on Shelton, I saw a video of him recently playing in 2017. He was being coached by Nick Politiari. And he's hitting quite rudimentary backhands in this Shelton. And it just made me think that he might have a lot more developing to go. Like, I think he's still relatively young in terms of his development. I know he's that, you know, I know he's not really young. What is he, 22? But in terms of like the amount of time that he's been like properly dedicated to tennis and he's not Alcaraz in that sense. If I compare the Alcaraz I saw in 2017, way ahead of where Ben Shelton was in 2017, it just feels like there's maybe more development to come from Shelton.

1:01:36I think we can be guilty of boxing players in.

1:01:41Catherine Whitaker:Maybe he won't develop more, but I think he's already showing some development. The backhand's way better than it was.

1:01:48Matt Roberts:Felt like he was reading Fritz's serve, the returns improved. I think I'm betting on there not being enough improvement

1:01:58Catherine Whitaker:to get past Sinu and Alcaraz. That's still my overall take. But I still think there's a lot more to come. And he might be able to narrow that gap, which over the last couple of years I've only thought was actually widening, if that makes sense.

1:02:13Matt Roberts:Yeah. And you'll have the crowd with him in New York. That'll help.

1:02:18David Law:I think that that could be a factor in as much as I do think that Alcraz in particular is vulnerable, as incredible as his top level is. I sort of think, well, if Shelton could get Alcraz aside from the draw,

1:02:33Catherine Whitaker:he's going to want to be in Alcraz's half, isn't he?

1:02:35David Law:And if somebody could, you know, sort out Sinner, you never know.

1:02:41Matt Roberts:Easy. Someone else do that hard job.

1:02:45David Law:Grigor wasn't far away, was he?

1:02:47Matt Roberts:I'll let Bertic take out Alcaraz and I'll cruise to the title that is how you win a Grand Slam folks David I was slightly worried about your body clock when you informed us that you had watched every point of Zverev's defeat to Hashanov because this took place in the dead of the night

1:03:06David Law:yeah that was also an early morning job I did no middle of the night watching or late night watching I have to do it in the morning but I stayed away from the results so that I could watch it as live. That's old school. I watched it really because I was curious. Zverev had given these quotes talking about how his conversations with Rafael Nadal had made him realise he's got to be more aggressive in the important moments and he's got to not wait. And he said, I knew this stuff, but Rafael Nadal said it, so now I know. And I was very curious to see, well, OK, well, what does that look like? And is that a thing?

1:03:51David Law:Look, he lost this in a deciding set tie break to Hachinov. He did have a match point where he hit a return that hit the tape. And, I mean, it's flip of the coin whether it goes over or not. And it came back his own side. And he got edged out. So the bad news is for Zverev is that he lost another match against another player. I mean, I have the list somewhere of the players he's lost to this year, and there's 15 odd different names on that list and not all the usual suspects. I mean, he's lost some bad ones, a lot of them. And so what is this? It's a step in the right direction, is it or not? He didn't win the tournament.

1:04:29David Law:But the good news is I did sense from his perspective a difference in the way he was trying to approach big moments. and he lost the first set of a few matches, Arnaldi, Poprin, but then he started to, well, he came back in them and he did, you know, in the first match he played against Adam Walton, everybody was going on about a 52-stroke rally as though it was this amazing thing and I just thought, no, it's not. It's just in lockdown mode, not wanting to miss and trying to dare his opponent to choke. And that's kind of what happened. But I saw some things from Zverev that I don't typically see.

1:05:18David Law:I saw him, having lost the first set, crowd in the baseline and kind of almost premeditated, decide to hit a forehand and come into the net, regardless of what the ball he's coming in off was like. and I thought well that's different because normally he just stays at the back and and waits and and when he was getting to the net I mean he's so big his his wingspan is so immense that he can get to a hell of a lot of balls and he you know he can make you miss and he and even you don't have to hit the best volley in the world and actually when you looked at his net approaches there were a lot of them in this Hatchinov match first set he did exactly what he's always done stayed way behind the baseline got bullied and you know he's never gonna win a grand slam doing that i mean i don't think he'll win a grand slam anyway as i've as i've said many times but his best chance will be if he keeps this up which is trying to just step on it anyway even though i don't think he really believes in it or it really comes naturally he's doing it because he's he's done the rest of it for the last 10 years and that hasn't worked um and i'm i'm interested to see what happens my my guess is that because it's not in his dna really and he's actually got a bit of a clunky forehand in truth i don't think it'll stand up to to the uh sort of the eye really when it's really important to scrutiny but it's the only way it's the only way he'll ever do what he actually wants to do

1:07:02Matt Roberts:You've got to be prepared to lose playing, you've got to commit to it so hard you're prepared to lose So we'll see It's interesting Julian Cash and Lloyd Glasspool good news for Matthew a little nod to Friends of the Tennis Podcast there that will have heard Matthew's voice note, very unexpected voice note in our Wimbledon review show Cash and Glasspool have continued their absolutely extraordinary unbeaten run by winning the doubles title in Toronto they obviously won the Wimbledon title but that is four titles and 19 matches in a row for these two unreal, an absolutely unreal run from them. They must just feel totally bulletproof.

1:07:54Catherine Whitaker:In doubles, of course, with that shorter format, it feels like the margins are so small. I'm going to use the word of the hour. They must have been extremely clutch in this run. There's been so many match tie breaks that they've managed to come through. Yeah, it's a really impressive run. I like it when a, you know, when a team builds up a bit of a, you know, a bit of dominance on the double swing. Like, I think that's good. I think that's good for doubles. Like, when there's a team that are together and are winning and feel strong. And, yeah, I'm like, I just find it more, I just find it easier to engage with that narrative than, like, oh, like, who's playing together this week?

1:08:43Catherine Whitaker:and kind of who's won this one. I think it's good. And it's good for the tour that they're doing this.

1:08:51Matt Roberts:It's bonkers to me. And I think very harmful to the sort of brand of doubles that you have individuals becoming doubles number ones. I think that is stupid. You've got to maximise the team element. Yeah. And yeah, everything you've just said. okay that is it for part two part three we'll talk about Cincinnati that is of course already begun before we talk about Cincinnati some bits and bobs of coaching news kind of over the last few days we've had the news that Emma Raducanu is going to be working with Francisco Roig who was coach, sort of secondary coach to Rafael Nadal for many, many years. What do we think of this?

1:09:42Matt Roberts:I last saw Francisco Roig at the nightclub in Indian Wells that I still can't remember the name of. I can't believe I'm blanking on this. The Nest.

1:09:53Catherine Whitaker:Yeah.

1:09:55Matt Roberts:The Nest. Last time I saw Francisco Roig, he was having quite a good time at the Nest. disco francisco oh my god it just came to me wow we should do friday night podcasts more often i've i have got video of it that i will release for a price um before i get myself in more trouble david matt uh what do we think of

1:10:21Catherine Whitaker:this partnership i mean i i don't really know what to make of francisco roig as a as a coach really oh i've i have seen the video um look he obviously had that success with nadal i don't know how transferable that role is to this i know he's worked a little bit with slone stevens i think in in the past as well um the one thing i would say is i know that to my only carry all of the Guardian spoke I think exclusively to Raducanu out in Cincinnati and I just really liked Raducanu's own assessment of where she is right now she said I've been good at being creative scrapping playing the big points well but the overall quality of my game needs to be better and I see that when I play the really top players where I can't run and I can't scrap I have to wait on them to miss a bit that's where I need to improve that's where I'm hoping he can help me and I just felt I thought like that was a really good self-evaluation I feel like the one thing about Raducanu is like I know she's had all these coaches but I do think she knows her own game maybe as maybe because of those coaches you know she's often been having to to sort of think about what it is she wants to get out of a coaching partnership so look I have absolutely no idea it to be quite honest whether Francisco Roig is is the right guy to to do that but I'm pretty encouraged that Raducanu sees that as the task at hand because that that does totally strike me as the next step I think she's been playing you know probably the most consistent tennis of her career this season and trying to trying to make that jump and hurt the top players is is a big leap to make But I think, you know, she's targeting that and absolutely hope that Francisco Roy can do it.

1:12:20Catherine Whitaker:It's obviously come about because Mark Petchy isn't, you know, isn't committing to Emra Adekanu because of all of his broadcasting commitments. So I think, you know, she needed someone, someone who could sort of be there all the time, even though I'm sure Adekanu and Petchy are still in touch.

1:12:41Matt Roberts:Holgeruna has hired Marco Panici who is one half of the duo that Yannick Sinner sacked after Haller I don't know why that's funny but it is It's very Holgeruna isn't it? Yeah To mop up a sort of semi-discredited staff member from the sidelines I think it's quite a good move. Yeah. Yeah, probably.

1:13:14Catherine Whitaker:He needs serious people around him. And he's a fitness trainer. I've often had a lot of concerns about Runa's fitness in big matches and lasting on the tour. I think he needed someone like that. As you said, the way he left the Sinner team, we don't really know. I think there was talk about an interview, wasn't there, that Panicci gave and sort of breaking the trust of Sinner maybe. But, you know, that's still a bit unclear to me. But I don't know. I think it's not the worst hire Runa's done, I don't think.

1:13:57Matt Roberts:No, it's interesting that he's... Panicci and Badio, I thought they only came as a team. I'd like to know the behind the scenes of Panicci taking a job without Badio. Was it like, oh, David, help me out. Nottingham Forest, Brian Clough and his...

1:14:20David Law:Peter Taylor, my word, Catherine. That's going back before my time.

1:14:25Matt Roberts:Well, no, I've seen the film, haven't I? I've seen The Damned United.

1:14:29David Law:he always seems pretty no-nontious that paniccio i remember he was one of the few who seemed to be prepared to shout back at novak jokovic and goran was always saying he used marco as the bloke to get the messages across because he got the biggest booming voice um but yeah i mean you know that's a it's a pretty good pedigree really in terms of players he's worked for who've who've done pretty well.

1:14:55Matt Roberts:We've got Deanna Schneider working with Sasha Bayan. Bayan obviously having recently split from Donna Vekic having well, not added a great line to his CV in terms of the results that Donna Vekic had while working with him but Deanna Schneider is giving that a go. She's had a disappointing season Schneider after a really big breakthrough last year. I think It's not a disaster, but I think people are expecting more. So we will see on that front. And now a couple of bits of news reported by The Athletic. One is that Irina Sabalenka has added Max Murney to her team as a consultant for Cincinnati and the US Open.

1:15:40Matt Roberts:I've got in the agenda here, David knows Max. I did not know Disco David knew Max Murney. Have you got some crazy story about Max Murney from back in the day?

1:15:51David Law:The Beast, Max the Beast, Murnie. He was known as. He was a good player.

1:15:57Matt Roberts:Was he one of, was he New Balls Please?

1:16:00David Law:Yes, he was. Yeah, yeah. Going way back. I knew him when I was on the ATP tour. Lovely fellow. Really charming guy. One of Bolletieri's sort of students, you know, used to love talking about Max Murnie. And Max, I mean, I haven't seen him for many years, but I know that he had a brain tumour quite recently and was was really unwell um but thankfully it appears you know is is is doing well now and and i'm i'll be really pleased to see him you know it's um i was shocked to hear about how unwell he was but um but no it's great that he's uh he's going to be back on the scene and and what i would say is he is somebody who will keep things light you know he's a he's easy going he's a great communicator.

1:16:49David Law:I think he'll be a good, I mean, aside from his knowledge of tennis, which is high, I think he will be a good guy to be around.

1:17:00Matt Roberts:Good to know. Some other news just broken in The Athletic is that Stefano Vukov is free to return to the Elena Abakina coaching box. David, this is hot off the press. You got wind of it earlier on this evening. It's now being reported by The Athletic, which means it's confirmed, and indeed the WTA have confirmed it. They have said that while case details remain confidential, we can confirm that Mr Vukov is eligible to receive credentials at WTA events. and they said they won't be commenting any further. He was obviously handed a one-year ban from receiving credentials at WTA events earlier this year.

1:17:54Matt Roberts:That suspension does appear to have been lifted. We knew that he was appealing that ban and that that appeal took place just before Wimbledon, I think, entered Vukov into private arbitration with the tour as part of the appeal. and the hearing took place just before Wimbledon and it does appear that he's been successful in that appeal and he is clear to be accredited at WTA events and I would expect to see him back in Cincinnati.

1:18:32David Law:Yeah, I mean, either there or the US Open unless something else happens. But, yeah, I heard that just before we came on air and sent a note across to the WTA who sent us and the Athletic that statement. I'm not that surprised given just things that I was hearing about it. But it will be very interesting to see whether it goes any further, really, because they were pretty steadfast in their view of that suspension at the time. So we'll see. Yeah, absolutely.

1:19:15Matt Roberts:In terms of Cincinnati itself, it's got a new look for 2025. What's actually different, Matt, about Cincinnati?

1:19:26Catherine Whitaker:Well, a lot. I mean the court colours it used to be blue on green it's now blue on blue it's giving Australian Open Australia swing vibes the look to the court and it's had a huge renovation the site $260 million renovation Matt Futterman was reporting in the Athletic and I think they I think they kind of thought they had to you know obviously Ben Navarro was potentially going to move it they decided to keep it in Cincinnati and they've expanded the site I think I think honestly to keep up with the demand now for these two week long Masters 1000 events when there's so many more people coming through the gates and there's more opportunities for hospitality and all that kind of thing and there's more players on site they need bigger areas and all that kind of thing so I think the players are very happy with the with the improvements that have been made certainly that's been that was what Matt Futterham was reporting they buy out the neighbouring golf course and for the week so that players and their teams can play Carlos Alcaraz and Kaspar Rood were playing playing golf today together of course

1:20:39Matt Roberts:they should buy out Kings Island

1:20:41Catherine Whitaker:you've been there

1:20:43Matt Roberts:I would be there in a heartbeat if it was unfettered access to the adjacent theme park I would I would not be on this podcast right now God, that was a good day at that theme park Did sort of get mild whiplash though Which wasn't great Anyway, what have we seen so far? Novak Djokovic withdrew before the tournament Obviously Mboko and Osaka have both withdrawn Artifis is out Jack Draper withdrew a while ago Mira Andreeva is also missing Yeah, he's not missing though Caroline Garcia do everyone remember her retirement ceremony?

1:21:29Catherine Whitaker:It was a shock to me that she was in the draw

1:21:35Matt Roberts:Paola Bedos' withdrawal from the US Open means Elise Corne is the next player in the draw she was sitting with us in the press room at Wimbledon what's going on?

1:21:44Catherine Whitaker:by the way the Garcia she won today she beat Sonia Cartel

1:21:50Matt Roberts:yeah she beat Sonia Cartel

1:21:51Catherine Whitaker:One of the funniest misunderstandings, miscommunications that I've ever seen during that match. Garcia asked the ball kid to go over to her team for her and get some gut. She was talking about string, gut string. The ball kid, I think, slightly misunderstood, well, definitely misunderstood Caroline Garcia and went over to her team and said, she's asked for some yogurt and they were like huh what so then she had to go back and garcia was like gut oh no no not yogurt string i need i need string i need to restring my racket it was i've probably not done that clip justice i think it's doing the rounds it was so funny and i just

1:22:41Matt Roberts:i just really enjoyed it it reminded me of when i was um ill at a champions tour event in chengdu and after sort of three days of fever dream locked in my hotel room, I eventually emerged looking sort of very pale and not having eaten for a few days and thought that, you know, the safest thing for me to venture to eat is toast. So I explained to a very trying-to-be-helpful member of tournament staff that I would like some toast. and he was next seen wandering back into the room clutching a toaster.

1:23:23Matt Roberts:Bless him, which must have been so much more complicated to acquire than just some toast. Bless him. Joel Fonseca has already won a match, beat Yun Chao Kete Bu in 7-5 in the third. I mean, needed a win, really, Fonseca. he's in the sort of did we overhype him category and I'm not asking that question of anybody in particular I'm just throwing it out there in general but he could do with a win or two, Joel Fonseca Mpeshi Perikaz had a bit of a tough period hasn't he? Tough season really he lost to the young player from Hong Kong Coleman Wong, 6-3, 6-2 that is a name to look out for Marketa Vondroshova has already thrashed Jacqueline Christian.

1:24:14Matt Roberts:And a bit of a tough scene for my fantasy team, actually. Christian and Boo both in there. Not been exactly racking up the points for me. That means we get Vondroshova-Sabalenka in round two. Yes, please, to that. And Venus Williams got a world card. She lost to Jessica Boutas-Monero, four and four. So the men's draw, we have a top half that includes Yannick Sinner, Tommy Paul, Kasper Rood. Lorenzo Mazzetti, Taylor Fritz, Alejandro Davidovic, Fakina, Flavio Caboli, Francis Tiafoe and Holger Runa. And the bottom half is where you find Alcaraz, Rublev, Mensic, Domino, Zverev, Medvedev and Shelton.

1:24:52Matt Roberts:And then the top half of the women's is Sabalenka, Raducanu, Fernandez, Samsonova, Rabatkinakij, Shvantech, Schneider and Alisimova. And the bottom half has Goff, Ostapenko, Svitolina, Paulini, Pagula, Bencic Towson Mukova and Navarro so that'll all be unfolding over the course of the next 12 days something like that the finals of course taking place on a Monday because great, why wouldn't you? great plan everybody, well done good job lads, great process it of course means that our schedule is a bit all over the place but we do have a couple of shows over the next week to cover Cincinnati when is our next show?

1:25:38Matt Roberts:Tuesday

1:25:39Catherine Whitaker:that's the plan we're going

1:25:42Matt Roberts:Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday?

1:25:44Catherine Whitaker:yeah

1:25:46Matt Roberts:Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday folks, it's catchy let's make it catch on and of course the second Tuesday of those shows will be live just like this one except we will be in New York crazy, crazy how quickly that has come around. Folks, this has been such a fun episode. Maybe we should Friday night it more often. Bring back Disco David. What a fun time. Hello to our mascots. Hello, Phoebe. Hello, Maisie. And hello, Roger. Hello to our top folks and executive producers, Greg, Chris and Jeff. Greg sent us a photo earlier of the venue for our New York live show. He must have been wandering past the area.

1:26:37Matt Roberts:And it made me very, very excited. I am very, very excited about the live show. So thank you, Greg. Shout out to The Athletic. We're, of course, part of The Athletic Podcast Network. They've been doing great journalism. They've just broken that. Vukov, we're back in a story. Check out their work. And Matt, we have some shout outs tonight. Disco shout outs.

1:26:58Catherine Whitaker:We do. we have Ian Farrand in Winchester.

1:27:04Matt Roberts:Hello, Ian in Winchester. Lovely neck of the woods, Winchester. Not that far from here.

1:27:10Catherine Whitaker:And Ian... Good cathedral. Ian's a long-time listener. And this year, he, his wife and his three girls are going to be in New York for the US Open. They're going to go to Fan Week, going to go to the mixed doubles and the first... one of the early days of the tournament proper as well. So hopefully we'll see Ian there.

1:27:32Matt Roberts:Love that. Oh, Ian, yes, please say hello somehow. Drop us a note on Instagram and we'll try and find a way to come and say hi. Brilliant. Have a great time in New York, Ian. Cheers, Ian. It's not a very Tennessee name, Ian, is it?

1:27:48David Law:Ian Flanagan, Catherine, you keep forgetting.

1:27:52Matt Roberts:Flanmania. Yeah. Flannmania is a very Friday night energy, isn't it? Ian, thank you for giving us the opportunity to talk about Flannmania again.

1:28:01Catherine Whitaker:We've also got Sam Wood, and she's from Barkshire.

1:28:06Matt Roberts:Catherine?

1:28:08Catherine Whitaker:Crowthorn.

1:28:10Matt Roberts:Oh, yeah, I know Crowthorn.

1:28:12David Law:We know Sam. Sam often says hello to us at tennis tournaments and is a barge member.

1:28:18Matt Roberts:Yes, I didn't know Sam was from Crowthorn.

1:28:22Catherine Whitaker:Sam says that she had a... should have said. A lovely chat with Catherine David on the steps outside Suzanne Long, Glenn.

1:28:30Matt Roberts:Yes, but you didn't mention that you're from Crowthorne, Sam. Buried the lead. Two stops on from my... Well, it's where my parents still live, so maybe I shouldn't disclose the location. But two stops on from Wynersh on the train line. Crowthorne, there you go. Lovely stuff. Thank you, Sam.

1:28:52David Law:Thanks, Sam Stosa. Yes.

1:28:55Matt Roberts:Very good.

1:28:56Catherine Whitaker:Former US Open champion. And we've also got Judy Singleton, who is from Rocky Hill, New Jersey.

1:29:08Matt Roberts:Judy. Of course.

1:29:11David Law:Judy Dalton.

1:29:12Matt Roberts:Got a New Jersey. And Judy Murray. Yeah.

1:29:16Catherine Whitaker:And Judy says, For many years I went to the US Open with my dad, and about five years in a row, we were rained out before there were roofs. One year we were leaving ash due to the rain and we ran into Bud Collins in front of the media centre. We got to chat to him for a bit and he was so friendly it made the rainy day a bit brighter.

1:29:40David Law:You guys don't remember the rain, do you, at the US Open?

1:29:44Matt Roberts:I definitely remember rain, David.

1:29:47David Law:No, but rain just stop and play for days on end.

1:29:50Catherine Whitaker:you had to keep having Monday finals

1:29:54Matt Roberts:Judy thank you Judy, Ian and Sam thank you ever so much for being friends of the Tennis Podcast if you would like to become a friend of the Tennis Podcast get access to the barge, our safe, fun community space, all of our bonus episodes, Tennis Relived the review shows that we do after every slam, we do a live YouTube show once a month you get ad free listening as well and a bunch of other stuff, then the link to do that is in our show notes. Thank you for joining us live if you did tonight. Hello to Hannah in the chat, who's obviously had a fact to hand about Crowthorn, incredibly. And yeah, thank you very much for listening, everybody.

1:30:36Please do join us again for our next podcast on Tuesday.

1:30:41Matt Roberts:Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday, folks. Keep saying it over and over. Maybe we'll remember. Tuesday, Friday, Tuesday. thank you for listening we'll speak to you then