Live from Wimbledon Day 12 - Was this the end for Novak Djokovic?

0:10Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast live from Wimbledon on day 12 of the championships. An absolute scorcher of a day here in southwest London today and actually one that's still ongoing. If I'm in hushed tones for the next few minutes, it's because there's still a girls doubles match deep into a third set behind us. So if you hear applause, it's not actually for us. It's for the competitors involved in that. Today was, of course, the day that the men's singles final was decided here at Wimbledon. It'll be between Carlos Alcaraz and Yannick Sinner. But today was also the day that we possibly saw the last of Novak Djokovic as a truly competitive force at major tournaments.

0:57Or maybe the day that we realised that we might actually have seen that long before this fortnight. And that I think is where we should start because all three of us have just come from Novak Djokovic's press conference following his straight sets to feet to Yannick Sinner this afternoon. and heard him say that the reality of his ageing body has hit him like never before. And that while he was physically compromised in the match today, he didn't consider that to be down to bad luck, but he said down to age. He said that playing best of five has been a real struggle for him physically in the last year and a half, that he gets to the latter stage of slams and he feels like he's going into matches with the tank half empty.

1:40he also did add that he doesn't intend for today to be the end of his Wimbledon career he said he wants to come back next year to play quote at least one more match but David Matt this all did sound like an admission I think a realization may be that unless something really out of the ordinary happens and Sinner and Alcoraz go out early maybe others too he hasn't actually got what it takes to win Grand Slams anymore. Yeah, I'm mindful that Novak Djokovic in post-match press conferences can say things that he then slightly rose back on. The heat of the moment, the emotion of the moment sometimes take him over.

2:26But at the same time, he's very detailed there, isn't he, about how he feels during the course of a Grand Slam now and that it is different to how it used to be. he also did take that heavy fall a couple of days ago that perhaps contributed to how he was feeling out there but he he is pointing towards a wider problem and a wider issue of what age is doing to his body and how it's leaving him short energy wise when it matters most his body is given way at times as well um i i think there has to be a big question mark as to whether he really wants to put in the grind over the summer and go to New York.

3:06I wonder about that. Because everything this year has felt like it was about Wimbledon. And he's had a tough experience today. I said yesterday, if he takes a shellacking in this match, and my word, did he take one. He had a little brief respite in the third set, but that felt like a little blip for Sinner. I thought that that might well make him think, I don't know whether I want to do this anymore. I don't know whether I can do this anymore. And I still feel that the kind of lap of honour, the circuit of goodbye that I've been kind of advocating really for the last year might be a good thing for him to do, might well end up being what he does do.

3:53But I think it is probably over now for him as a competitive force at Grand Slams for winning them. I do think that. and I think it's for two big reasons isn't it because obviously there's the the way his body keeps sort of failing him as as he said in that press conference and as we've just talked about for the last six slams by my maths he's been compromised by injury in some way but the other thing which he did point to a little bit in the press conference as well is that Sinu and Alcaraz are there. You know, like if they weren't there, I do still think he would be able to win slams. He's got to the semis of them all this year.

4:38He'd beaten Alcaraz at one of them, but again, that was in his body then failed him. But like he said, I'm getting to the end of slams and my tank is empty. These guys are fit, they're fast, and he's doing absolutely everything he can to take care of his own body. He stressed that a number of times that he still feels like he's working as hard as absolutely anyone on tour in terms of what he's putting in to make sure he's got as much as he's got. But it's just not enough to be able to keep up with those two in their prime. And it's taking its toll on him so that when he does get to play them, he's kind of left a shadow of his self.

5:17And yeah, I've felt this for a little while, but I've not heard him articulate it quite like that before. and that was a real moment. Yeah, it was a real moment. I mean, just to give you an indicator of what the atmosphere was like in that press conference room, Carlos Alcaraz came in just before Djokovic. He was actually supposed to be after, but Djokovic was delayed, as he always is, and Carlos Alcaraz, being the hopeful guy that he is, came in early to kind of fill the gap. And Carlos Alcaraz is a two-time defending champion. His press conferences are very well attended. He's just reached the final.

5:54like he'd expect quite a busy room but he walked in the room and sort of went like that and went wow like he was taken aback by how many people were in there and I think also just what the the vibe was in there there were a lot of people with their laptops out ready to write you know potential retirement on the spot story and that's obviously not not the story and yet it does feel like a bit of a version of that story because those lines about I don't intend for this to be my last Wimbledon I'd like to come back and play at least one more match it felt very farewell Tory to me and you've you've always called that David I've always thought not doubted you on that but just thought god a year is a long time to be saying goodbye all the time and for somebody as great is him to feel uncompetitive and experience moments like today a year feels like a long time to be going through that but it does sound to me david like you were right and that that's what he intends i mean we'll wait and see i still think it is his best chance of being competitive really because i think that what what he needs now probably is an end point in his mind because he can't keep going on like this I don't think working as hard as he is without knowing without feeling confident that there'll be results at the end of it because this must throw in throw it into doubt this is the one this is the one where he was coming in without injury he felt fresh it's his surface he's playing sinner's side of the draw sinner's never reached the final here and it all looked good really I mean obviously we still don't know what would have happened if he hadn't taken that fall but I think that that might be covering up the wider point here I just think if if he were to announce next year as being his last he could focus on that then he could try to make himself ultra competitive it might be easier to to run you know it's like when you've got a long run and you know there's a finish line there if you just just focus on that last bit you can get there um that's not to say that I think he will win another grand slam I actually don't now having seen this today um but i think he could still get some good wins some big wins some runs and more importantly for him i think he would he would then get the chance to be absolutely lauded wherever he went and i think i think he craves that and i understand it give because he spent a career not getting that in not to the way he wanted anyway yeah and it was quite a low-key departure from centre court, wasn't it?

8:37Certainly in comparison to his one in Paris, when I know that he'd really acquitted himself so well that night and he'd felt the appreciation during the match. I think he was taking a moment to sort of give it back at Roland Garros. But here he just, you know, he waved, but he just left the court without any real fanfare. I don't know, like if I had to say right now, I don't know why I'm saying this, But if I had to say right now, I'd probably say that he might retire at Wimbledon next year. That feels possible to me right now. And in terms of that energy in the room that you describe, I mean, it literally was standing room only.

9:21I know that because I was standing.

9:25And, you know, you said that, you know, the kind of journalists, they're ready for that sort of retirement story. And it's not a retirement story. but the thing is if we're writing the Novak Djokovic is no longer competitive at majors story, that essentially is it, isn't it? Because that is Novak Djokovic. Like, you know, he's a tennis player first and foremost, but really he's a tennis player that wins the biggest titles and competes for them. And yes, like maybe he could get a quarterfinal run or semifinal run again potentially but even that feels tricky he's had three of those this year and look they've been good there have been moments but is that enough to sustain him for another year yeah yeah doesn't sound like and I think in in hindsight maybe the sinner performance at Roland Garros in that semi-final there was closer to the sort of moment that we were talking about yesterday, David, in terms of like he comes out, he plays well, he's dangerous.

10:32It was night session. It was his conditions. He played so well that night. I think the straight-set nature of the win covers up the reality of just how good and how close Djokovic was to Sinnoh in that match. but that might have been the last moment. Yeah, it was a completely different match to today. Today was bizarre almost. Yeah, it was awkward. It was awkward though. I think it wasn't helped by the fact that it was second on and it was such a hot day and Djokovic just wasn't able to give the crowd anything to get their teeth into. Like his body language was so tired and sort of kind of beyond flat.

11:17He just, he looked old out there. And I do find it interesting that he, it would have been so easy and understandable for him to put this down to the injury that he sustained in the quarterfinals. And the fact that he's not, because that clearly was a factor in hampering his movement today. The fact that he's not, and he's being so truthful and so realistic about the fact that that isn't a factor in isolation. That in itself, the fact that he's been unable to recover from that, the fact that he sustained it in the first place and that it did the damage to him that it did, that is all due to the wider picture of ageing.

11:52The fact that he's being that realistic about it in a sport where being deluded, being the right kind of deluded, is such a crucial element to the mental game does indicate to me that this has been in his mind since before this tournament. this is almost confirmation of a theory that has been percolating. Yeah, because I think this was the one tournament where maybe he could defy the theory and defy the evidence. And honestly, when he came into his pre-tournament press conference, I was very convinced by him. And I think he was convinced by himself. He felt fresh and energetic. And as the week's gone on, that's been less the case.

12:38And today, I agree with you. He did look old, and I'm afraid somebody like Yannick Sinner exposes that. He was awesome today. I don't know what happened in the third set when he was 30 love up, and then he suddenly lost about, goodness knows how many points in a row, and went three love down at the start of the third set. But even then, we were watching Catherine, and both felt that at 3-1, it's right in the balance. Even when he's 3-1 down, it's right in the balance who wins this set. It still felt like Sinner's likely to win it. and the way he beat Djokovic was just like watching vintage Djokovic beating everybody else and there was no not a flicker of an answer for Djokovic and that may certainly contribute to by the injury and yes it was me who said yesterday that I thought he would rattle Sinner and come out firing and at no point did he rattle Sinner and he was a breakdown 3-1 within minutes and it was Sinner who was rocking him.

13:41I've watched a lot of ageing boxers run into a younger version and get stopped and you suddenly see them age before your eyes and tennis is probably the closest thing to that. It's without the violence but it's one-on-one and there's nowhere to hide, there's no help from teammates, you can't sub anybody in, you're exposed out there and I did feel for Novak Djokovic in that way. Did you share Matt's view that it could be here next year, the scene of his actual retirement? I think that makes a lot of sense. When I think what I've just said about, I'm trying to get inside Novak Djokovic's head and think, how do I get motivated for the US Open this year, now?

14:24Mixed doubles with Olga Danilovic? Maybe. First four. Maybe not worrying about it and just enjoying yourself, I don't know. he's not had quite the history there that he's had here I could see him wanting to play the Australian Open again because of all of his history there but the thought of him carrying on in the second part of next year after Wimbledon yeah I think that makes a lot of sense what you say Do you see him, this farewell tour that you're envisaging for Novak Djokovic how many events do you think he'll play beyond the majors? I mean, I could imagine him certainly playing, I don't know, a Madrid or a Rome or something like that.

15:09A Rome, maybe. I know he didn't play there this year, but he's got a great history with that tournament, you know. Certainly the Australian Open, something to get himself ready for it. Maybe something in the Sunshine Double, I don't know. Maybe I'm over-egging it, maybe he's not as bothered. But I think he's going to want to have his... it's really hard to retire it's really hard to know how to do it you know and we've seen Murray and Serena and Federer and Nadal all go through it recently and they've all been very different so very personal thing. And they do do ceremonies well here. Bring back Sue Barker again?

15:49Always. Shall we just talk about Yannick Sinner a little bit more? Has anybody got any more superlatives to throw into the mix for Yannick Sinner today? I've got a stat. Yes, please. I could try one of those. Second youngest man in the Open era to reach all four Grand Slam finals. When it was put to him in the Encore interview, he said he was the fifth person. And I immediately went, surely there's been more than that since 1995. And he read out the big four and then Yannick Sinner. And I was like, yes, Alcres hasn't done it yet. Of course, he hasn't reached the Australian Open final yet. Not even semis, has he?

16:30No. So really, you know, Sinner, it's a big moment, I think, reaching this on grass. He hasn't really had any youngest stats, has he? Like Alcaraz has been the one having all the youngest to do a thing stats. Yeah. And suddenly if, you know, if Sinner were to win the title on Sunday, both he and Alcaraz would be one away from completing the career slam. And obviously Alcaraz would get that shot first in Australia. but that would be a fun narrative next year. But he was awesome. I mean, he was absolutely brilliant. Hit the ball just as well as he had against Ben Shelton, I think, when we were really impressed with how he was striking the ball with such conviction.

17:13And he was saying he was better than that today. He said, I was moving better today. I'm thinking, oh, my God. Poor Ben Shelton.

17:24Yeah, he's brilliant.

17:28it was such a non-match I mean yeah I know the thing is what gets me is that anytime you have a doubt about it whenever I think oh yeah but he hasn't done it on clay yet or he hasn't done it at Wimbledon yet or he's just had a fall or he's just sacked his physical trainer and his physio anytime you have a doubt about him he just sort of swats it aside like a fly as if to say don't be ridiculous of course there's nothing wrong with it because if you actually stack up the stuff that's happened to him off the court. We were talking about this with Itamar earlier, weren't we, our colleague? And he's had...

18:06If you wrote down the list of stuff that sort of happened around him off the court, if you wrote that down pertaining to another player, you'd think that's pretty chaotic. Obviously, there's the ban and that whole situation, but there was the way he handled sacking those trainers that were implicated in the positive test. Then there's what's happened with his new physical training team that he's got rid of on the eve of Wimbledon. There's the random classical music single with Andrea Bocelli. I think that is quite chaotic behaviour. He seems to take it all in his stride. Yeah, there's, you know, the fall.

18:44OK, anybody can fall. But, like, these are things. And yet he's the most unchaotic, disciplined, straight as an arrow, guy on the tennis court he's totally unflappable except for that one game where he dropped serve from 30 love up and his forehand just deserted him today, it was almost as if he was trying to remind us all that he is human after all and he said in his on-court interview didn't he that he surprised himself with how well he's learnt to move on grass, he said I found it really hard when I first stepped foot on this service I didn't feel comfortable at all and I think it is very easy for us to go oh well these these guys are just brilliant aren't they like obviously they can do all this stuff but they can't just do it they just work incredibly hard at it whilst also fitting in forays into classical music and on grass in particular you get such little time to be able to learn to do it so you know like if he'd had the amount of time on grass that he's had on, for example, clay, he probably would have got there in a couple of seasons rather than maybe four or five seasons.

20:01But, oh, he's here now. They'd all be playing like Tatiana Maria if there was a long grass court season and everybody had time to really craft a bespoke grass court game. I don't think Yannick Sinner would be. there'd be a bit more Tatiana Maria in his baseline game maybe well Alcraz was just asked in the Spanish portion of his press conference what shot he would take from Sinna and what shot he thought that Sinna would take from him and he said he thinks that Sinna would take el toque, my touch and he said the slice, the drop shots and all that kind of stuff and yes that is an element of his game that look, it's improved.

20:45It's definitely got better. He's definitely added it to his arsenal, but it is an area where it feels like Alcaraz has a big advantage over him. Okay, let's talk about Carlos Alcaraz. Four sets for him over Taylor Fritz today, 6-4, 5-7, 6-3, 7-6, won the last four points of the match from two set points down to take it into a fifth, pretty heartbreaking way for it to end for Taylor Fritz. Let's start talking about this by discovering what Alcraz's answer was in Spanish to what would you take of Yannick Sinners? Because I suspect a year ago, the answer would have been the serve. And I suspect he didn't say the serve today because I think he probably wants to stick with his own serve.

21:29Because he's a serve bar now. Or he is like he can be. Right. Halfway through a tournament. You're going to tell me he said the serve now, aren't you? He said the backhand. Yeah. He said he thinks... I mean, you have to say something, don't you? You can't say nothing, really. I think Holger Runa would potentially say nothing. I'm happy with all of my own stuff. I'm pretty sure that question got asked to Holger Runa last year, two years ago, when he was going to play Alcaraz. Yeah. And he genuinely did struggle. He was like, I'm really pleased with my game. Should we ask again? Take his brain, Holger.

22:06Yeah. Take someone else's brain. Anyone's. the thing is though serve bot Alcaraz a little bit boring yeah I don't want to piss on the bonfire of today but that match was really dull there was four sets four games went to Deuce and people who listen to this pod will know I love Deuce I love mini battles within a match I love Deuce on a t-shirt we've basically got none of them Like the breaks were, you know, when they came, they were then backed up and the sets were over. Really fun fourth set tie break. It went from 4-1 Alcaraz, 4-6, you know, fritz up two set points. And Alcaraz came back at him and won it 8-6.

22:54An absolutely fantastic point to save one of the set points and stop it going into a fifth. But like even then a little bit of me was like, well, he's already two sets to one up. Alcaraz doesn't lose in fifth sets. It's like he's going to win this match. And absolutely the serve bot element is, you know, was the next development in his game. And it's great for Alcresi, he's developed it. And he still sprinkles these matches with stardust. And, you know, he's serving volleys, he plays those drop shots or he injects pace. Like he's still the most exciting player in the world. It's just, I quite liked it when he was addicted to the drama.

23:35and the thing is Bring back Bertic Right well the thing is Sinner at least in the finals the one guy who even if Alcaraz is I think playing the absolute best can live with him and I can't believe we get to see Alcaraz Sinner again I feel like I'm still recovering from the last one but can't wait for Sunday You David have always said that like the next progression for Carlos Alcaraz is to be a bit more boring Yeah Yeah, it's when it happens, it's quite a shock to the system when it happens because it happens in the middle of a tournament. It's not like, I mean, Yannickson is just always like that.

24:16He just just destroys you. Simple as that. There's no drama. It just goes and takes you apart. Alcaraz doesn't. I mean, Alcaraz against Fabio Fanini. I reckon Alcaraz loses to half the draw with that performance. but get him but he wouldn't do that performance against someone that's not Fabio Fannini quite possibly although I do think first rounds at Wimbledon I mean that's two in a row where he's just looked super nervous you get to today and he did not lose a single serve point on his first serve in that first set and it was just raining aces and he's picking out the corners and he's hitting them a lot of them 135 miles an hour.

25:00I mean, it was quite mind-blowing what he's doing. Fritz sort of wanted it to be one of those battles because he's got a good first serve and a great first shot behind it. And the problem for him was he lost his serve in the first game of the match. And I mean, he was right in front of me when he did that. And he turned around and just went, oh no. You know, just kind of... The one thing I didn't need to do was that because the set's gone and now Kras just comes straight out and serves a love service game and just the three of them were unreturnable serves um it was just awesome and I mean yes I suppose it is a bit boring compared to to what we used to I mean I'm a 90s boy I loved it I just love watching him deliver those sort of serves and shots and um so I'm I'm less bothered by it probably but I am fascinated to see whether he can keep it up and the adjustments he then has to make when it doesn't work because it's not like watching Sampras.

26:04Sampras used to be like that all the time. That was his game. For Alcraz it's a nice pleasant surprise for him but no he did look super. I mean the big surprise to me is that he ended up losing the second set and I think it's great credit to Fritz that he actually dug in and got his serve going and And he very clearly decided, if I get a racket on the ball and get it back deep onto his baseline, I've then got to hit the living daylights out of it and not try to rally. I've got to go for the winner. And he took his chance. Fritz gave a great press conference afterwards. He's box office in press conference.

26:45He's kind of unmissable, win or lose, because of the way he breaks down the game for you. and he did an incredible breakdown analysis of Carlos Alcaraz's game, which we'll talk about in a moment. But in terms of his own, the impression I got is that while he gave tremendous credit to Carlos Alcaraz, he doesn't think he's that far away. Is he deluded? Well, look, there was that... Genuine question, Matthew. You know, I referred in commentary to the press conference answer that Fritz gave that day before about if I play like I did in the first two sets against Hachinov, there's nothing anybody can do.

27:24And, I mean, the thing is what he's not factoring in there is the magic dust of Carlos Alkraus. Every time Alkraus drop-shotted him, brought him forwards, he looked lumbering because it's not a natural strength of his game. He's worked incredibly hard at it to reduce the weakness. but he still looks like he doesn't know what the heck to do when he gets up there and Alcraz just exploited that. So look, he did get, he got set points to take it into a fifth. That's blummin' good going. I didn't ever think he would win. I think for tennis players and, you know, Taylor Fritz, he's ranked really high and it kind of goes to that thing that Federer said at that.

28:14that speech he gave where like, you know, he won, what, 80-something percent of his matches, but then he won 50-something percent of the points. Like, the margins are small, and particularly on grass. And yet, when it just keeps happening time and time again, you see the big picture, and he is far away. You know, like, the way he got beaten pretty easily by Yannick Sinner in the US Open final, the way he's, than he's ever beaten Novak Djokovic, has he? And, you know, he loses in four today. Alcaraz and like that accumulation over time sort of shows you that he's quite far away even if like within every little moment he's maybe not miles off it it's maybe a bit like the sort of reality that Novak Djokovic has felt today like you look at his season semi-finals of all the majors you think well he's competitive he could win them but actually if you take a step back have we ever actually thought he was going to win one of those majors this year because of the guys in front of him, because of the injuries he's got.

29:16The big picture is he's not that close. And I think it's that for Fritz. In the moment, he maybe feels like he's not that close, but the same thing keeps happening. And these two are better. Djokovic said it in his press conference, didn't he? He said they're levels above everyone else, Sinner and Alcaraz. My question to Taylor Fritz was going to be about what you said about when you get two sets to one down against Carlos Alcaraz or when whatever stage of the match, when you lose two sets to Carlos Alcaraz, does everyone's heart just sink because the locker room knows his best of five set? No, well, his five set record.

29:52Like, oh, it's over. And I put in the question, I assume, I said, obviously, Carlos has this incredible five set record. I assume the locker room is aware of that. And he said, I didn't know. he said I'm he claimed that he doesn't know about it I didn't he could have meant I don't know the numbers like I don't know the specific record I do think he would have been honest he does strike me as that kind of guy but I also do find it hard to believe that the locker room doesn't know generally his five set records I think Yeah, as you say, the specifics maybe, but like also that surprised me of Fritz because Fritz is, I don't know, it strikes me that he's really up on people's stats and that kind of thing.