Live from Wimbledon - Women's final preview

0:10Hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast live from Wimbledon and presented by Barclays, the official banking partner of Wimbledon. This is the first of two shows today, a two pod day, David's absolute favourite. it is your women's final preview show and we are here mostly to dissect and debate Linda Nozkova and Karolina Mukova and a few other bits and bobs as well and joining us to do that is The Athletic's Matt Futterman it's becoming a bit of a tradition Matt that you join us for this show you're not sat next to the sick man of Europe this time no jelly beans today we try not to remember the trauma of last year too vividly Hopefully no jelly beans and no double bagels.

0:55Well, that is kind of where I wanted to start. Before we get into who's going to win, where are the battlegrounds going to be, how confident are we all that this is going to be a good match? That we aren't going to get... Okay, love and love is extreme and unusual, and I don't think anybody would predict that, but how confident are we that it's going to be competitive and a good match today? uh well i sort of take heart in the fact that before the semis they hit together on center court and uh they took a picture after and apparently it was like a good vibe um so i'm kind of thinking that maybe even though they're going to be doing that walk and into that like quiet fancy room with all the people around.

1:46Maybe they'll just sort of feel like we're just going out to have another hit on center court here, and that'll chill them out. Also, both of them are first-timers. No one's facing a six-time Grand Slam winner who was undefeated in Grand Slam finals. So, you know, maybe they sort of feel like they're with a real peer there instead of a David and Goliath situation. Matt, I'm imagining it already feels quite different to last year for you. Very different. Matt's conscious. He's got some colour in his cheeks. And I'm confident it's going to be very different to last year. I think Matt's absolutely right.

2:30There's no big experience gap this time between them in terms of Grand Sam Finals. I know Mukova's got one under her belt, but it doesn't feel like Anisimova's Fiontech did in that sense. Also, like Noskova, who is the more inexperienced one, I'm pretty confident she's going to hold serve a few times, right? That's like her best shot, her biggest weapon on this surface. And that's very different to Anisimova, who, you know, struggles with the serve sometimes and certainly did in that final. So I just think Noskova can certainly get holds on the board and keep it close that way, even if she's the more nervous of the two with the slight lack of experience.

3:12But I actually am not even sure that will be the case. I think she's got a great temperament to handle this occasion, and I think she's going to really show up, and I think Muka is going to have to sort of handle her game. David? now you may remember last year this bench i feared a 50-minute final and yes i am quite pleased with myself that i got that right um but i was very displeased that it ended up being right um because it was obviously a shame i do have on the subject of whether it's going to end up competitive or not I do have one small concern in the back of my mind, and that relates to Linda Noskova freezing and playing the absolute worst type of player to make you freeze.

4:03Somebody who can put slices low and ask questions and be consistent and play a grass court game. We saw Mukova come out and win a 6-2 set against Koko Goff on centre court just a couple of days ago. Occasionally, I feel, as good as Nuskova is, occasionally I've seen her not turn up in matches. It's occasional, but I've seen it. And that would be my concern. I think, in the end, that that won't happen because of her ability. Well, generally her ability, but also that serve. I think she will probably settle and be able to get behind a couple of service games and be okay. But I'm reserving that slight concern in the back of my mind that this could end up very, very quick and one-sided again in the favour of Mookala.

4:54In terms of who's going to win, we've all got the right to change our minds. I might be changing my mind. I don't know. I want to hear what you have to say, Matt. What do you think is the single most likely scenario for this final? Well, I always go back to, not always, but I feel like the last time I was on the show was after Madrid. And we were talking about who was in our mixes for the French Open. And I was talking about there being maybe a dozen players or something like that. And I think, Catherine, you asked me, is Mugovic in your mix? Sounds like something I would ask. And Matt Roberts said, Mugava's always in Matt's mix.

5:41And, yeah, I kind of think she's the best player in the world or the best tennis player in the world. And I realize that's a loaded phrase on this show because I don't mean it in the Mahachwa. Because, you know, I feel like... That's a name we haven't heard from. Right, because I feel like when you say that about him, we're talking about, like, well, of course he's not. He's a crazy person. That is such a low-key burn. I've actually retired that. Right, I know. But having said that, for several years now, I think since that French Open, I've always felt that there's nobody who's a better pure tennis player than Mukhova.

6:23So I'm going to go with the pure tennis player on the court where Mary Carrillo says the best athletes win. So then given that, why hasn't she been... There's a reason why she hasn't been winning slams, right? And what is that reason for you? And why don't you see it being a reason today? I think a lot of it is health. I think a lot of it is also that situation that people talk about of having so many tools and not knowing exactly what to use at the right time. The Ash Barty problem. She has a lot of decisions to make. and I think that's been pretty hard for her and I think we've seen over the last really six months that she started to really figure that out and sort of focus it and I think the purest sign of it was in the tie break against Goff when she was hurt and she said, okay, well, I have this power tool and it's really the one I have to use right now because I can't play long points.

7:35I'm too tired. I've got a stitch in my side. And that's what she did. She made a great decision. She got rid of all the other tools. And that's why I feel like she's got it figured out today. Is that why you could also make the case for Noskova in that in a big match like this, if, to David's point, she can overcome any nerves and if Noskova can settle, her game is less complicated. She's got fewer decisions to make. And if you're going to struggle to make those decisions, if that's going to come, it might come in a Grandstand final. And I am predicting Muka to win. I think ultimately she can outmaneuver and maybe outplay Noskova.

8:20And she's so hardened by all the wins she's had here against those Grandstand champions to get to this final. and beating Goff in the way that she did. But I do think there's a scenario where Noskova's uncomplicated, no fuss tennis, big serve, get the first strike in, the hands to handle what Muka does throw at her. I think there's a scenario where that tennis is better suited to a grandstand final if she can settle. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely, definitely. I woke up this morning, I know we were joking on the show last night about this equivalent show of three years ago and it being our worst show of all time and our desperation.

9:00No, we weren't joking. It was our worst show of all time. It was quite a lot of competition. To expunge it from the internet. But I did just wake up with a feeling of like, oh, this is the same. Like, everybody likes Zynda Nozkova, but she's younger. I think everybody feels okay, sort of willing Mukhova to win because of everything Matt described. She's kind of low-key, everyone's favourite player. she's had all these injuries it feels like she's been a bit cursed she's older who knows how many more chances she'll get i feel like everyone's like this is the one you know and that feels so much like jabber and von drosheva three years ago to me and i just have trauma from that i can i can i see the parallel that you're drawing i don't i don't can't quite remember how old on shabber is but it doesn't feel, this feels like the start of something with Karenina Mukova to me because she's never had a run.

10:04She's never had a run of fitness and I suppose that is probably why the concern might be because for all we know this may be the one uninjured window that she's going to get. I really hope that's not the case. I really hope that's not the case. That's all I can say. but it feels like it's the start of her career to me rather than something she's got to get in before she has to retire because of canister yeah i know she's 29 but she doesn't look she doesn't look old in any way she looks like she's got another six years of top level tennis to me when i watch her play and i don't i don't feel as though a bit like federer it doesn't look like it takes a kind of grinding toll on her body she's had physical breakdowns but i don't see I don't see that she's trying to eek one out before she can finish the sport and and with with Jabir it did certainly the second time it felt like oh my word we're in a race against time here for her to get this one um and particularly because she'd made it very clear she wanted to stop because she wanted to eventually have a baby if she could and you know she'd put that off and all this sort of thing.

11:18In terms of coming out and freezing, I don't really have that concern for Mukava. Also, I mean, I suppose there are similarities to draw, I think, between Noshkova and Rybakkena in terms of game style. There is a chance that your lovely game just doesn't have time to settle because of the power. But I do back Mukava against anybody's power. I just feel like her hands are good enough. I think she's a more consistent player than Jabir. I think Jabir is an instinctive player, who actually the second time she reached the final, I think she's actually in the route to it, because I think she beat Rebekah on the way to that final, didn't she?

12:00And I felt like, and I think she might have been Sabalenka even as well. At that time, she'd established more of a base to her game than she did in the first year. but ostensibly she is still kind of a not like a trick shot artist but she's just instinctive i think mukova is i think she's the ultimate player i agree with you i feel like put it all together and she can do more than anybody else and and i think she's worked out how to do it now i've got another uh matt futterman receipt on mukova by the way from our i dug out our whatsapp chat I hope you don't mind me airing this it's very it's done a lot of airing private WhatsApp chats this fortnight it's going to look good for you I think I wouldn't do it otherwise Monday the 13th of April we'd just done a Q &A show and we'd been given a stat that someone outside of the top 14 keeps winning majors on the women's side it's happened many years in a row and Matt texted me saying annoying that Mukova could not count as a player lower than 14 to win a slam this year maybe she would have dropped a couple of spots by Wimbledon.

13:07She would have been my choice. Feels like it has to come at some point. And Vutterman said, if she gets to the second week and she's playing the big name, she'll be playing well. I have a weak spot for great athletes, especially on slippery surfaces. All true. It's pretty good stuff. All true. On the great athletes thing, I had a chat with your colleague Kiva earlier this week, who covers Wimbledon, but mostly covers football. and she had just been watching Karolina Mukherjee, I think for the first, certainly the first time live, and she was so taken with her. And she said, look, I cover football mostly and she is the one that looks most like a footballer out there in terms of her movement.

13:49And it just looks so right seeing her on the grass. I'm sad to bring up football after, moments before going on air, I invited Matt over to my flat to watch the England game tonight and he asked if it would be acceptable for him to support Norway. if you're sensing atmosphere that is why folks um but i loved that point from her about i mean the movement is just it's both graceful and balletic and so strong and athletic is at the same time isn't it and her father was a goalkeeper right right yes like i think her brother made a brother played professionally too and like up at the net that's that's the most like goalkeeper-y that tennis gets, I think.

14:32She just feels like, I don't know, whether it's Luka Modric or Perlow, that hub player in the middle of the field, the ball goes into that player. That player is so calm with the ball, even if there's four people running at them, and then just looks up and sort of like sends the perfect ball outside, moves up, gets the ball back again, does the same thing. I mean, you just sort of, that's what she's always reminded me. of just that that sense of calm and the one thing where I think is different from Jabor when we were talking about that Jabor wore that first player from Africa first Muslim player she wore all of that in a very very heavy way and yeah Mukava's or and Noskova whoever wins is gonna be like the 86th Czech woman to win Wimbledon it's not really that big a deal you know there's no groundbreaking here it's groundbreaking for them but there's no there's no first thing there's no example there's no playing for all the little girls in north africa i mean which was really like a huge thing that she talked about a lot and can be very empowering but at times can be a bit too much you did a great piece about that uh this week checkmate i mean the title wrote itself uh this all Czech final.

15:58I mean, obviously part of what's going on here is the tradition. You know, champions make champions. You've got to see it to be it and all that kind of thing. Novatov is clearly where it all started. Mandlikova, Novotna, Kvitova, Pliskova reached a final here. Krejcikova, Vondroshova, Siniarkova in the doubles. It is an extraordinary list of players from a country of just 11 million people. But there's more to it than that, isn't it? Like they are doing stuff different over there there is there is stuff that other countries can learn from what the Czech Republic are doing yeah that's what they tell me I will say I haven't I haven't you know embedded for six months in Czech tennis that's the next step and seen this up close uh yeah I kind of would rather like do embedding in like you know Portugal Portuguese tennis or something like that just you know for the the beaches and stuff but oh I think they find out what they're doing wrong No, no, no.

16:56It's just a ruse for me to get a nice six months in Portugal. But if it's Czech, so be it. It's fine. I've been to Prague. Love it there. but what I mean what Martina told me is that you know she lives in Florida so she's old she sees a lot of coaching in Florida and she spends time in Czech Republic still or has been back there enough and she said you know what's really important is most of what she sees in Florida is children sitting in the court being fed balls by a pro who's standing next to a basket and so they're learning how to really bash a very clean ball and Czech kids are just playing games and sets and matches from a very young age and there's a real emphasis on point construction and creativity and having lots of tools and playing all over the court because you know your skills change from the time you're six to the time you're 20.

18:00And that sort of skill acquisition has really sort of revealed itself on the court the last couple weeks with, I mean, not just these two who made the final. I think it's worth noting that Kretzikova beat Bartonkova, who's like Mukova 2, and Mukova 2.0, and then Mukova beat Kretzikova. I mean, they were beating each other. And so I think that's one thing that's really important. All of these women will tell you about all the other sports they played growing up. That's huge, isn't it? Yeah, I think it is. It seems like there's a lot less specialization. I mean, just sort of anecdotal evidence. And beyond that, I think it seems to me from speaking with them is that they haven't gone to academies.

18:52They've been in normal school. I remember Valentovo last year. I was interviewing her and she was really worried about getting, it was at the French Open, she was really worried about getting home because she had finals coming up for her, I think, junior year in high school or something like that. I mean, they're doing this sort of balancing act and kind of being treated as normal people, even though they're these outstanding athletes instead of, you know, what I'm most familiar with in America is everybody's homeschooled. Everybody is playing only one sport. All your chips are on one thing. Yeah.

19:26The whole family from the age of like 12. Right. And as someone who has real problems with point construction, I can assure you, I can assure you there is a lot of hitting. There is a lot of standing at the baseline and, you know, having dolls fed to you. There was a piece that Mary Carrillo sent to us this week by Joel Drucker on a similar theme. And he talked about, you know, the lineage of Czech tennis and everything. and there was a scene in that piece that Joel describes watching Mukhova on the practice court in Indian Wells and he's seen people practicing coming and going and it's all, kind of to Matt's point, it's all repetition.

20:03They're all hitting the same shot over and over again but Mukhova's returning serves and every return she's hitting is different. It's a drop shot, it's a drive, it's a floaty one on the baseline, it's cross court, it's down the line. She's practicing all the returns, not just trying to get in a rhythm hitting one and that sense of creativity I think is, I don't know, I think it's particularly prevalent in this era of the Czech players actually as well. I think there was a time when it was Kvitova and it was Pliskova and it was that big first strike tennis that would take the racket out of your hand with Krejcikova and Vondroshova and now Muka and even Noskova I think is underrated in her creativity.

20:47That seems to all be there with them I just thought that led on nicely from what Matt was talking about in terms of point construction and seeing the court rather than just sort of hitting the ball repeatedly. We've done enough editions of Tennis Relive to know that, you know, I'm sure whoever loses today will be told by the winner in their speech, don't worry, you played great, you'll be back here and you'll win it one day. And, you know, that very often doesn't happen. How confident do you feel that whoever doesn't win today will have a good chance to come back and win again one day? I am confident that Noskova will.

21:33Because she's got time on her side. I really hope she doesn't have a bad experience. I hope she doesn't have an Anissimova. Funny enough, when we came out of that final... Is that what we're calling it now? Yeah, well, yeah, because that was so bad. But she's the poster person for putting that behind you and going and doing it anyway. The way she reached the final of the US Open, I think it was extraordinary. But I would worry for a much younger woman like Noskova if she had a really bad experience. I just wouldn't want that. I don't want that for any player. for Mookova I'd be a little bit concerned that she didn't, for her that she should win this honestly I just think she's that good and she's in her prime right now she's ready mentally, game wise, everything is there and if she then didn't win I'd be a little bit concerned that she would have doubts I don't know whether that's accurate, that's just my concern huge news for Natasha's Vareva that we're now calling it an Anisimova well Vareva had a good 30 years in it now she's going to hand it over yeah what do you two think yeah I think I probably agree with David on that like just purely for age reasons you know Noskova is she's very young she's the youngest woman to reach the Wimbledon final since Bouchard in 2014 She's only 21.

23:13If she wins it, she'll be the youngest champion since Kvitova in 2011. And I do think the sport generally has sort of woken up to how good Noska is this tournament. But I think everyone's been sleeping on it. I think she's really good. Except for Matt Roberts. I think she's really good. And I think she can come back here and win. It was a year ago, Catherine. Matt and I were looking at her previous woman on record and her losing to Anissa Mova in that match he was sitting at is the one that turned Matt from, yeah, she's good, into, oh my word, she's really good. Yeah, she can hurt you in so many ways, you know, with the serve, with the ground strokes.

24:00And you're right, her variety, her toolkit is underrated a bit like Sabalenka's often is because she has the power as well. You think of her as just a big, flat power hitter, but there's a lot there that she can fall back on. And I still think her movement can improve, and I do think that's going to be huge for Mukova to try and get her moving side to side. You know, it's similarly to what she did to Osaka. You know, I think the problem Mukova, I think, might have is that Noskova can handle the setup shots that Mukova can play to try and then drag you wide in a way that Osaka, with her lack of hands, couldn't really do on the grass.

24:41But yes, to come back to the question, in terms of trying to win a Wimbledon after this one, I do think Noskova, just because she's got so much more time on her side, I take the point about how Muka doesn't feel like she's coming to the end of her career, but Noskova really is at the start of it. That all sounded very Jabir von Droshevary.

25:08Matt? Yeah, I think they can both. Absolutely. I see no reason why not, except Mukava's health. It's always going to be a concern. Is it a concern today? How worried were you about the physical state she was in two days ago after that semi-final? I mean, I just thought Goff had sort of wore her out, but I thought it seemed like it was exhaustion and a cramp from... Yeah, that's what it looked like. And there's enough time. And the stress, too. Is that not a worry for today? Stress, heat, and exhaustion? Yes, but I do think the points are going to be so different. And the golf experience is different, isn't it?

25:55I don't know. It's a lot to come back from that. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the golf experience. I was at the Goff-Nascova match in Madrid. I was sure Nascova was going to lose. I was like, okay, here we go again. This is where she folds. And granted, Goff was, she had just had the food poisoning, the not food poisoning, the virus. The shrimp tacos that weren't the shrimp tacos. That weren't shrimp tacos, yes. She had gotten over, she had survived the match with that, and this was two days later, and they were playing. She was not in peak health. Still, she was deep in a third set. I think it went to a match tiebreak, didn't it?

26:40And Nascapa prevailed. And you've mentioned how that's one of the hardest things to do. Granted, it wasn't a grand slam. But it was a pretty big match, and it was pretty impressive. It got to the end. It got tight. and she didn't buckle as I'd seen her buckle in stressful times in the past. Just before I get your final predictions, Matt, I wanted to ask you about another piece of yours that I read this week about the women's doubles final, and in particular one of the women's doubles finalists, Gabby Dabrowski, who plays with Luisa Stefani, favourite team of David and Matt. David's trying to get Stefani as a nickname off the ground, I'm quite happy to ditch it.

27:22Not actually believing in portmanteaus. I don't know what came over him. I only say that to try to, you know, be one of the guys. And I don't like you, really. OK, well, we're in this now. We can debate this at a later date. But it's an incredibly moving piece with Gabby Dabrowski, who I think most people probably know the headlines of her individual story. She's a two-time Wimbledon finalist, never won the title here. and when she played here two years ago we now know that she was in the middle of treatment for breast cancer she had had two surgeries she took she then took a break as approved by her doctors before having radiation treatment that started in the august of 2024 so that she could play Wimbledon and compete in the olympics where she won a bronze medal with felix auger alias im and at the time everybody knew she was coming back from something but it wasn't until months later that both the tennis world and even people that were quite close to her for example her you know her mixed doubles partner that she won a bronze medal with that that they discovered exactly what she was coming back from and and I hadn't realized the role that Wimbledon and the grass plays in her story and that the extent to which the story is still ongoing for her yeah I had the opportunity to speak with her I think we were in Miami actually and uh I mean it was it was one of those sort of professional and personal worlds colliding my wife had just been diagnosed with breast cancer and uh and then all of a sudden I was having this interview with Gabby Dabrowski and And we started talking about what had happened two years ago.

29:11And she said, I don't know how familiar you are with breast cancer. And then I said, well, Gabby, you're about to get a little more than you bargained for in this interview. And because it was really just like sort of days after my wife had been diagnosed. She had not had surgery yet. And we spent a good while talking about me in that interview. And she was incredibly sweet and supportive. and tell your wife to call me if she needs anything. I mean, she's really great. And yeah, it was pretty emotional for me, certainly. She talked about it a fair bit. But what we ended up moving towards as she sort of talked me through her recovery, because it's kind of crazy when you think about how quickly.

29:57And I think she had, I mean, she ended up having to have two surgeries because they didn't get everything on the first surgery. so uh and by the way tip of the cap to the wta which provides annual checkups for um its players and it was in one of those generally take place in miami because they have a lot of space there they have suites and it was in that annual checkup with a wta doctor that they spotted this and they said i think we need to get you followed up on that and you know within days uh she had been diagnosed. But moving on from that, she had to have two surgeries. I think the second one was sometime in May.

30:37And it was just like weeks after. But I mean, she got off the plane here. She still couldn't quite lift her arm on the toss. And she was going to play, I think it was Nottingham. And, you know, sort of found a way and day by day got better and better, but just loves the grass and sort of always feels her game here. It feels like it really suits her. And there's just this deep emotional connection. And so, you know, having done that story, I know we're not supposed to root for people. I had my eye on every one of her matches and what was happening as I was sort of watching her advance through the draw.

31:16And, yes, I'm absolutely thrilled that she's in the final. They lost that final two years ago. So, but it's just so amazing how quiet it was. It wasn't just like journalists who didn't know. Felix Ogeri, I seem, didn't know she had, just had breast cancer surgery. And he was her partner at the Olympics. And, you know, she announced it in December and she got like, you know, and I think he sent her, you know, one of those texts with the bicep emoji. I mean, you know, just, it was really kind of incredible what she did. and it's great that she's speaking so publicly about it right now. She really wants to raise awareness.

31:58She's donating a lot of money with, I think, each game she wins. $20 for every game. I've got this from your piece, Matt. $20 for every game she wins to the One in Three Foundation, which gets its name from the global statistic that a third of all women over the age of 15 have experienced some form of sexual or physical abuse. she's already raised over$10 ,000, which equates to about two years of training in communities to help prevent violence against women. Yeah, so she's doing great things on the court and off it, and yeah, just someone, I think, to really admire and look up to. And she's still, she's in remission, but she's still undergoing hormone treatment.

32:41She's experiencing menopause-type symptoms. She's in a Wimbledon final still receiving cancer treatment. Yeah, it's not easy. I mean, I think we forget sometimes that we watch these players and all of them have stuff in their lives. Some of them are battling illnesses and injuries themselves. Some of them have parents who are sick. Noskova's mother died of cancer. She's going to walk onto the court with that. We've talked a lot last year about Anisimova's father dying suddenly. so you know this is a sport where you you don't leave your baggage necessarily in the locker room, you're going through stuff and I think it's something that is good to remember when you're saying you know, oh god how did they make that, what a terrible decision to hit that shot, I mean there's stuff going on, it's not that easy it's a hard job That's very powerful, look These two were already rooting for Dabrowski and Stefani.

33:43Apologies to Modanovic and Johan. I'm sure their time will come. They've reached the final without dropping a set. So it's looking good for them. Thank you for sharing that, Matt. The time has come for predictions. David, you're up. I think Muka will win. I've said in two sets. It could easily be three. I don't feel emphatic about this. because I think Nuskova is really, really good. And I think she definitely has the skill and the tools to be a major winner. But I think Muka comes out and shows us why we all are misty-eyed about her when we watch her play tennis. And all the stars have aligned for her to finally be injury-free, I think.