Talking ‘Changeover’ and the Alcaraz-Sinner Rivalry with Giri Nathan

28:47Matt Roberts:Did you find yourself rooting for him in slams? Like, I've got a book writing on this, Yannick, come on. At some point, it was like, these two were getting too carried away with the theme of the book, and if they could relax and let someone else have a shot at one of these slams. But yeah, I think there's always a moment as a sports writer where there are certain narrative rooting interests where maybe you're no longer a fan, but you are interested in telling stories of a certain shape. And in this case, I was definitely interested in Yannick Sinner closing the gap to Carlos Alcaraz, for sure.

29:23Catherine Whitaker:Just last one on Sinner before we move on to Alcaraz a bit. Something that comes up in the book, which I thought was really interesting, is kind of how he's viewed and perceived in Italy. You kind of set up this contrast where I think you encountered a journalist who said that he'd rather sleep than watch Yannick Sinner matches. And you describe a sort of takedown article that was written in one of the Italian papers. But then you contrast that with your own experience in Turin and seeing and hearing the love for Yannick Sinner. And I know Catherine has felt that as well at that tournament. What's your take on it?

30:06Catherine Whitaker:Sort of how is Sinner perceived now, do you think, in Italy? You know, he seems to, he kind of seems to be everywhere, you know, with a lot of sponsors. And, like, is he a really big deal in Italy? He was absolutely inescapable from the moment I landed in Turin. He is, you know, at first I thought, oh, maybe it's just because it's the ATP finals now. and they're really drumming it up but I realized he was kind of on every surface in public life that sells things to people you could find Yannick Sinner on billboards on little you know bus stands on my phone screen there's always Yannick Sinner and I asked some of the local journalists to give me a bit of the feel for how he's perceived locally.

31:03And they showed me some kind of sketch comedy that makes fun of him. Two aspects I remember them teasing him for was kind of his slightly Germanic accent in Italian and then also the fact that he would be interrupting himself mid-sentence to advertise some product or another. So, and I think one of the Italian journalists asked him if he was aware of that, you know, that sketch in Turin, and he kind of grimly acknowledged that he had seen it. But Sinner is absolutely everywhere. I'd walk into a pizzeria. The owner would be trying to talk to me about Yannick Sinner. And I think there is something very captivating to me about this native German speaker from this northern province in Italy coming to be this central pop cultural figure in the country.

31:56And I think along the way, at least among the older generation, that article that I cite in the book, I think there was a bit of resistance from a more conservative set who had an idea of what the canonically Italian tennis star should look like. And that writer Giancarlo Dotto describes feeling a different kind of passion for the Lorenzo Musetti tennis that he cannot quite muster for Yannick Sinner. And, you know, with trying to capture the rise of these players, I also want to capture sort of the strange moments of cultural pushback that they might face from a more conservative generation, let's say.

32:39So that's one theme that I was trying to get at.

32:43Matt Roberts:With Alcaraz, I think you described there a moment ago, but the sort of more traditional prodigy arc that he had from very early in his career. And you talked about struggling to realise how good he actually was and this incredible paragraph about how the usual trade-offs that apply to tennis players or any athletes really just didn't seem to apply to him and how kind of befuddling that was to get your eyes and your head around. Could you just talk us through that kind of journey you went on with Carlos Alcaraz to try and understand him as an athlete? Yeah. I think all credit to the kind of dogged watchers of junior tennis and challenger tennis who kind of spotted Alcaraz as this next big thing, even before I had the chance to watch.

33:38I think I only started watching him more closely once. I watched his match in Rio, which was his first ATP win. And then from there on, I was kind of keeping tabs on him. But with Carlos, I had this feeling that I'd been fooled before by the supposed next big thing on the ATP. And I had seen these three guys hold on to their hegemony over men's tennis for quite a long time. So you really had to bowl me over to convince me this time. And he did indeed do that in a pretty immediately charismatic and almost hard to process way. Watching Carlos Alcaraz, you think that I've never seen any player attempt these sorts of shots.

34:26Certainly not a teenage player attempting these sorts of shots. And I was reminded of a very brief, basically 90-second conversation one-on-one I had with Roger Federer at one point where he was like, I want to see these guys come to net and, you know, really do it with the conviction that they can end points there. Not just do it because their coach told them to, but just do it with that full intensity and that authority that, you know, Roger himself epitomized. So I think seeing Carlos do that at such this at this kind of embryonic phase in his career was so shocking to me that I wasn't really sure if it would last, if it would just kind of a flash in the pan thing.

35:13But then I kept watching and kept watching. And I think it was the Miami run where it just finally was unavoidable. unavoidable. This guy really is gifted in a very rare way, and he does have this well-roundedness where I think of tennis players as having trade-offs, as you said. You might be an excellent server, but perhaps you'll be a little unwieldy on return because you're probably a little taller, or maybe you're more comfortable playing a counter-punching style and you can't quite assert yourself in the baseline rallies. But we see this kid kind of morph as the situation demands into so many different styles of tennis player.

35:55And it's something that I remember seeing a little bit in Djokovic at times in his career too. And I think that adaptability was what was so kind of captivating about watching early Carlos and will remain a defining feature of his tennis going forward. You kind of never know which Carlos Alcaraz you're going to sit down to watch on any given day.

36:15Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, and we've kind of been wondering whether Alcaraz is going to ever end up being as efficient as Yannick Sinner in matches. You know, like we've even seen it in Cincinnati this week, you know, where Sinner, his first tournament in a while, he just wins his first match very straightforwardly. And Alcaraz takes a more, you know, long-winded route to win his first match. And there was one passage from the book that really stood out to me when thinking about that. When you write that, with Alcarez, you get the sense that if there were no crowd, there would be no point to all of this. His trade is tennis, but it's also spectacle.

36:55Catherine Whitaker:He never looks happier when working a stadium into a froth of awe and glee. His tennis alone does most of the work for the fans, but he likes to embellish his genius with small gestures. And I just think that element of him combined with what you've described there about the way he can morph his game and all that kind of stuff, depending on the situation. Do you think all of that is compatible with really straightforward dominant winning? Or do you think Alcaraz is always going to be this guy who's playing the sorts of matches that we sort of typically see him play with ups and downs? I do think it's the kind of thing that might level itself off over the course of his career, but I selfishly hope it doesn't because it's quite captivating to watch as someone who likes to see tennis matches where the outcome feels uncertain.

37:50But a big question I was trying to figure out was you know how how central a motivating factor is the entertainment thing for Alcaraz is it really at the core of what makes him want to get out on a tennis court and you know naturally he's asked about it over the course of the entire season he's still asked about it to this day and I found it quite consistent with you know his answers were basically yes like I sometimes get caught up on the court trying to hit shots that are going to delight people rather than trying to end the match in a clinical fashion. And I think that is a just very powerful resource to draw on, and perhaps it's worth the occasional hiccups along the way when you are chasing that glory.

38:42And the match gets a little bit too complicated because, you know, I think it's also what he's tapping into when he's playing a match tie break against Yannick Sinner in the Roland Garros final. And he's equally comfortable going for their spectacular shots because he's kind of engineered himself to chase that feeling for 20-odd years as a tennis player.

39:08Matt Roberts:When I was reading that passage that Matt just read out, you got the sense that if there were no crowd, there would be no point at all to this. it was so striking to me that like we've relatively recently still feels recently been through a period of tennis and sport where there were where there were no crowds um and Al Kraz had turned pro at that point but was just lucky enough I think that it was you know he was it was challenger tennis mostly that he played in in 2020 I think in a few qualifying tournaments but i just i i do have a sort of pretty unrefined theory about a very particular age of tennis player that were hit at the worst possible time by the pandemic and i do just wonder if alkraus had been like a year older and it had hit him at a slightly more developed stage whether whether it could have derailed him a bit or i don't know it's just something i just something that really popped into my head when i when i was reading that passage yeah that's a really interesting point.

40:09I think one of my other pet theories with Alcaraz on that point is he's of the member of this, he's part of this generation of athletes that basically grew up with the highlight reel is kind of one of the main, you know, it's like the main fodder of sports fandom now for young people is the highlight reel. And you got to think there's some connection between that and the way he set out to play tennis. You know, that little inkling in his head that's like oh maybe this will be on tennis tv if i can pull this pull this shot off perhaps not consciously operating that way but um yeah yeah he's such a product of his generation isn't he matt matt's often made the point when we've talked about perhaps we haven't we haven't done

40:57Matt Roberts:this for a while but his seeming over-reliance on ron carlos ferrero at points in his career you You know, he's never really played tennis without the sort of anything goes with on-court coaching rule. You know, he's very, what, is he Gen Z? Yeah, he must be Gen Z. I think so, yeah. Just too old to be Gen Alpha. Yeah, he's the ultimate Gen Z.

41:21Catherine Whitaker:And I think that point about him being, you know, the kind of highlight reel guy is also a nice contrast that you kind of talk about in the book as well with Sinner. I think it was when he was at the Piatti Academy, was it, when he would actively seek out watching actual sets rather than highlights because he thought he could understand the sport better that way and learn more rather than just looking at a highlight reel. I thought that was a really nice element of the book that I hadn't heard that before. And it really helps you kind of understand Yannick Sinner, I think, as a person and with his kind of approach to the game.

42:00Catherine Whitaker:When you mentioned sort of selfishly hoping that Alcaraz stays as entertaining as he is, I felt that at Queen's this year when he suddenly became a serve bot. And I found myself a little bit bored during some of his matches. And I was like, I really don't want to feel like that while watching Carlos Alcaraz. And it did just make me wonder, you talked about part of what made the 2022 US Open match so good is that their serves weren't as developed then. And therefore, they ended up in these crazy rallies all the time. You know, kind of every rally was starting at neutral again. And they were able to use their ball striking and athleticism to create these incredible rallies.

42:44And it kind of got me thinking about the rivalry generally and how, you know, the Roland Garros final this year being so good.

42:52Catherine Whitaker:Do you think maybe some of their best matches might come on clay in future? I know that they've had two big Roland Garros matches and you kind of described the one in 2024. I think you say actually it was shit. But in 2025, it was incredible. and is that a theory that maybe you could you could get on board with where like because the serves which have developed particularly sinners might be a bit more neutralized on the clay like we could see their most spectacular matches coming on that on that surface i think that's spot on i think i guess different tennis fans have different tastes but for me i really love to see these guys have to win the point from neutral.

43:39I just think it kind of brings out the creativity in them as tennis players. And even just contrasting that Roland Garros final with the Wimbledon final, it was quite clear that Yannick's first serve really carried him to victory towards the end of that match. I would be willing to bet that their most entertaining matchups will be on the slow hard courts and on clay. And I was quite surprised just to see kind of how much headway Yannick had made on clay, just as kind of comparing them both on that surface, I sort of thought the gap between him and Carlos was bigger than it turned out to be. When you just think about the fact that he was one point away from winning Roland Garros against him.

44:23But yeah, it also makes you take a step back and wonder if we want to facilitate these incredible matches. as maybe we need to tweak certain things about you know the ball which has been something the players have been complaining about a lot or surface speed or let's try to build the game in a way that you know brings about the tennis we're most excited about watching um but yeah

44:48Matt Roberts:i think it i think that's a good observation you must be a big aoi ito guy if you yes you like absolutely starting from neutral definitely yeah could not be a bigger fan yeah next book anytime i see yeah it's gonna be about the ito and the forehand slice and why we need more of it i am seated for that i would read the hell out of that book um you you start by sort of setting the scene for this rivalry we would love to see the context of the rivalry or rivalries that have that have come before it Federer Nadal Djokovic and the the the panic that tennis was in about what comes after and this incredible description of tennis is a terminally nostalgic sport which I thought was absolutely brilliant and he wrote about Federer Nadal for a while it seemed there would be just these two locked in a permanent struggle carving one another into genius as great rivals do maybe it would have been so if not for Novak Djokovic so I guess a kind of obvious question here is do you see there being a third a third wheel in this Sineral Kras party do you think there either needs to be a third or or if not need do you think their rivalry would be enhanced at least by there being a third wheel yeah I absolutely think it would be enhanced.

46:17I think there's, I don't like going into a tournament with the sense of kind of foregone conclusion, you know, even when the tennis is exciting as the tennis that these two play against each other. And I think at least having that third or fourth other contender really adds the narrative wrinkles that we want when we're watching an important tennis tournament. So I'm definitely rooting for that outcome. And I think it'll also, you know, one of the things I tried to write about in the book is the way they've each kind of pushed each other to get a little bit better and the things they envy in one another's game.

46:53And adding a third player into that dynamic just makes it all the richer. And you just see how that kind of Djokovic-Nanal, Federer-Triumvirate played out and Djokovic eventually taking the upper hand in both of those rivalries, I think they were all pushed to improve in a variety of ways. And that adaptation over the course of, you know, 10 years of playing tennis is one of the most interesting arcs to follow as someone writing about the sport.

47:22Matt Roberts:Do you see any obvious contenders right now? Or do you think a third is more likely to be somebody that is not yet on our radar? I think it could well be the case that this third person is, you know, 15 or 16 years old right now. It could be something like the age gap between a Federer and a Djokovic, but it's hard to resist. A lot of the common names that are thrown out also interest me. Like, it's hard to resist the ball striking of a Fonseca. I don't think he's, like, physically as far along as either of these two, maybe, were at the same time, just in terms of his movement. But again, with Sinner, I felt that that was something that could be worked out over time, and I suppose I might have the same view towards Fonseca.

48:09He's still so young. But I definitely think Ben Shelton and Jack Draper will be big players in the Sinner-Alkaraz story. I would love for them to close that gap as much as possible and keep these matches interesting. but I'm curious what you guys think. Do you think there will be kind of a Djokovic-ian interloper in this rivalry?

48:33Catherine Whitaker:I'm actually leaning maybe not, you know. I think that line you had about sort of we're always trying to make sense of the sport's future by using its past is kind of maybe what we're doing here and maybe trying to like force someone to become a third when maybe it's possible that this one isn't like the past year and actually Sinu and Alcoa's are just ahead. Like, I don't think they're going to win every slam, you know, between them for the next five or six years. I'm sure there will be people coming in there. But in terms of, like, sustaining it right now, I can't really call anyone.

49:14Matt Roberts:Yeah, I think there will probably be periods where it will feel like there's a third, but I don't think any of those periods will be anywhere near as long as the Djokovic, Federer, Nadal, occasional Andy Murray. Well, not occasional, but slightly briefer Andy Murray. Interesting that you've put Ben Shelton in there. Would you have done that before Canada? Have you always been a Ben Shelton believer? No, definitely not. I think my view of him has changed dramatically since writing this book, and then even in the last three weeks. So I think that he's kind of rounded out his game in ways that I didn't expect him to.

49:57I think he's much more solid off the backhand wing and putting that athleticism to use with some all-court tennis. I think that Shelton has definitely outpaced my expectations for him. And I often forget that he's roughly the same age as these guys and will be a contemporary of theirs for as long as they're around.

50:20Matt Roberts:And has played so many few Islams, right? Yes, that too. Yeah, interesting.

50:27Catherine Whitaker:Since we've got you in US Open week, Giri, there was a little bit in the book that really interested me as well where you write about the US Open. And I haven't been going to the US Open for that long, but I think even in the time that I have been going, I have sense to kind of shift in that tournament. And, you know, I think we're seeing it kind of this year as well with the reimagined mixed doubles and the matchmaking idea that they've got. It's kind of, you know, it's kind of a shift towards... It's kind of a shift towards, I don't know, trying to attract a younger audience, maybe trying to tap into the sort of celebrity.

51:11Catherine Whitaker:I'm just wondering what you think of the direction of travel that the US Open's gone in. I know I've read pieces from you before where you talked about how like overcrowded qualifying week is now, which used to be something that you used to love to cover. And now like it gets caught up in fan week. Like, do you think this is ultimately a positive change for the US Open or are you a little bit resistant to it? I think it's I mean, financially, it seems like a great decision for the US Open. It seems to be attracting bigger and bigger crowds. What that means for the fan experience is a quite different question.

51:48But it's becoming a little bit more New York City-ified. Like it's sort of a big party. It's a bit more of a scene. Whereas I think when I was growing up, it was more just something for tennis heads. And the qualifying week is a great example. It's gone from something where I would go with a friend and maybe my dad just to go scope out a bunch of cool young players. And now it's got a full-fledged mixed doubles matchmaking mixer type event. so I think it's uh but you know I think it's if their goals are to you know make more money at this tournament and bring in new audiences I think it's been hugely successful if the goal is to preserve a certain um kind of ease of moving through the tournament and uh just comfort level for fans I think that's a different question and um it feels like a tournament that's trying to be

52:50Matt Roberts:a lot more Carlos Alcaraz than Yannick said. Yes, I think that's definitely true. If they could choose one of those two to be their champion, you get the feeling maybe they'd choose Alcaraz.

53:00Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I think that's right. And I feel like it's only added to the whiplash that already existed going from Wimbledon to the US Open. I just think that's even bigger than it was now. For a lot of reporters, for example, like us, we will do those two tournaments back-to-back in a sense with nothing in between and yeah the vibes could could not be more different but that but that's kind of what i love about about the sport right there's yeah i think there's a place for for all of that i think i think um it's it's really one of the lovely things about following the tennis tour is that um you know each of these environments suits different personalities and i I think there is something about Yannick Sinner that's totally okay being in suburban Ohio and just focusing on his tennis matches on this quick hard court.

53:55It's just kind of the ideal circumstances for him.

53:59Matt Roberts:How do you think Alcaraz finds suburban Ohio? I think it's funny. Someone asked him last year, do you feel less pressure? I think it was one of the local reporters asked him, do you feel less pressure because this isn't in like a big cosmopolitan city? this tournament is in suburban Ohio. And he kind of giggled and was like, you know, this is still a Masters tournament. But I do feel like, well, another way to look at it is, for him, it's about the fans and how they're responding to him. And I actually think the fan base in Cincinnati does go nuts for him. And there are good tennis literate fans there.

54:37And you look at the way they responded to his match against Djokovic in 2023 and what an epic that was. I think he got all the fan love and fan enthusiasm he was looking for there. So maybe sometimes the story's a little bit more complicated than just population size and quality of expensive restaurants or what have you.

54:57Matt Roberts:Do you remember how much Federer used to love Cincinnati? Yeah. He was such a Cincinnati guy. He would get like a house and bring his whole family and like make a holiday of it. And that's where he did the Sabre for the first time, I think. Yeah. Yeah. He was feeling good enough. Singled out Cincinnati for something special. Feeling cheeky enough to try it. Giri, Matt has come up with a brilliant way to end this episode. He's come up with some quick fire Alcaraz Sinner questions. I'd actually like you both to answer them if that's okay. Matt, since you've come up with these questions.

55:33Catherine Whitaker:Turning my game back on me. That's fine.

55:37Matt Roberts:Yeah, I'm genuinely so interested in both your answers. these so if you'll indulge us for a moment giri um who wins the most majors when all is done and dusted out of the two alcaraz alcaraz you're both but i have i have bobbled on that question non-stop this summer and i think if you'd asked me two days after wimbledon i might have said Sinner but yeah I'm going with Alcaraz now what will be the best slam for each of them I think it'll be Australia for Yannick and I'll go with very Djokovician of him yeah I'll go with Roland Garros for Carlos

56:24Catherine Whitaker:stealing my answers yeah I think I think if you've got the same answers as the the

56:30Matt Roberts:the Sinner Alcaraz going back Right, I feel good about that You're doing well, yeah

56:33Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I think Australia would kind of in fact you talk about it in the book, Gary you know, the kind of calm of Australia and the fact that everyone's just starting from neutral at the start of the season that feels like it's going to suit Yannick Sinner and he's so clearly the best on hard courts at the moment and I suppose the shift for me is that I might have said Wimbledon for Alcaraz before this summer because it seemed like he was really far ahead of the rest of the field other than Djokovic on grass, but actually Sinner getting him on that quick grass that, you know, bounces so low. Suddenly grass really makes sense for Sinner as well.

57:09Catherine Whitaker:So I could see them sharing a lot of those. But yeah, I think Alkrauz still got it on clay.

57:16Matt Roberts:Who will get to the career slam first? I love this question because obviously Alkrauz is going to have the first pop at it. Right, yeah. And they're going to take it in turns to have a go

57:28Catherine Whitaker:until it's like a game show it's amazing this is where i'm thinking sinner i think sinner too it's also so weird to look at it in retrospect and realize that sinner was one point away you know we couldn't have known at the time but i think he has a better look at roland garros next year than alcaraz does in australia next year but i do think it's going to happen pretty soon one of these guys

57:50Matt Roberts:will put it together why so relatively speaking do you think alcaraz has a slight australia problem Yeah, I think this is a very, you know, loose theory, but I feel like it, Alcaraz does have these incredible spells, these incredible dominant runs, you know, through the clay season this year, but I think sometimes it takes a little bit of time for him to switch on, and there's not, and I think the offseason, he often talks about how it's not quite as restorative as he wants it to be and you know some of that's his own doing he's picking up tons of exhibition matches and collecting nice nice paychecks all over the world but i i i do think he's he hasn't been as locked in in australia as he has been with the other slams so far but this is a very loose theory

58:42Catherine Whitaker:but he'll win it one day i do think he'll win it one day i realized the other day that i'd never even considered that Alcaraz wouldn't win the career slam you know what I mean like I've always just thought he'll win the career slam whereas it's come into view for Sinner and and and now I think and now I think he'll actually you know do it but it it really goes back to what we were saying about Alcaraz being that prodigy right like as soon as he came on tour he seemed more fully formed as you know in terms of options at his disposal and he seemed so destined for greatness and kind of greatness is the is is the career slam and I think it would be fascinating if Sinner gets it first and becomes a a block for Alcarez in Australia that that that might be something that that plays out in their in their rivalry potentially but I still think Alcarez will get there because of just how high his peak is and I have to trust that that he'll find it at least one year in Australia if not more if he goes a couple more seasons though without

59:45Matt Roberts:winning Australia and starts to overthink it or panic or maybe just think about it some more I do wonder what changes he might make to you know, will he start playing a warm-up tournament? Maybe he'll become a United Cup guy or maybe he will make significant changes to his off-season in the number of exhibitions he takes on interesting what is the one Yannick Sinner shot you could watch on repeat? So sliding backhand down the line, not an original answer, but I just love his shot. I think he's a worthy successor to the Novak sliding backhand down the line. And the fact he can do it on a hard court, the hard court sliding.

1:00:32Matt?

1:00:34Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I mean, to be different, I could definitely watch that one on repeat. But what I'll say is actually the forehand on the run that I feel like was such a key shot for him. I think especially in that Roland Garros final, actually, there were a number of those that he just absolutely cracked. And I think that shot's developed for him. I think that's a great weapon that he's got. And, yeah, like it always just stuns me, the amount of power that he can produce from his frame, you know, with his natural timing. and that kind of kinetic chain that you write about in the book, and just everything coming together.

1:01:15Catherine Whitaker:And I think we see that most in those explosive forehands on the run, particularly hit cross-court in my head. Yeah. I think there were a couple of those at Wimbledon too. And I remember there was that moment of Carlos kind of barking back to his box, you know, he's better than me from the baseline right now. And I think that shot, in particular that cross-court running forehand from Yannick was one of the shots that was making him feel that quite acutely.

1:01:44Matt Roberts:One Alcaraz shot you could watch on repeat. Quite a lot to choose from here.

1:01:49Catherine Whitaker:I'll go if you want time. Yeah, please go. I love the fake drop shot that he, you know, on the forehand that he ends up just slicing and hitting it deep. and it just takes such... He makes it look easy, but you could so easily look an idiot, I think, hitting that shot. But his combination of timing and touch is pretty genius on that shot, I think, and sort of befuddles opponents. I love it when he does that. That's a great shot, great pick. I think what I love about it most is he's already planted this seed of doubt in the opponent's head, like, oh, you know me as the drop shot guy. now you're scared that I'm going to go for the drop shot and then he's adding another layer of complication being like well actually from the same setup I can just go deep with the slice also I think for me it's got to be the half volley maybe the one where he's doing that kind of joyful little skip when he's caught in a position in the court he knows he shouldn't be in but he's just so flagrantly talented with his hands that he can just pick up those half volleys anyway I I just love those.

1:03:04Matt Roberts:Final quickfire question. Who will be the next guy outside of Sinner and Alcaraz to win a major?

1:03:14Matt Roberts:You've kind of given us the shortlist.

1:03:18Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, I think I would go at this point Draper. and I'm actually not sure I would have said that at kind of many points in time really but I just think if he can keep improving at the rate that he's improved this year and with the kind of weaponry that he has I'd go Draper but I don't feel confident about that

1:03:45Matt Roberts:I think I would go Draper but Shelton has given me a bit of pause I am in a process of reframing Shelton right now but it's also recent that I'm not quite there yet. But the way he shows up in majors is pretty compelling. But I'm a big Draper believer, so I'd go Draper. This is maybe not an answer I feel that confident or that excited about, but I kind of think Zverev will put it together at some point. He's just so consistently at the tail end of these majors. and yeah I do think it will happen at one point or another. He'll be there to pick up the pieces. Yeah yeah exactly.

1:04:33Catherine Whitaker:Yeah.

1:04:35Matt Roberts:Can you come up with a supplementary quickfire question so we don't end on Zverev Matt somehow? That's my bad.

1:04:46Catherine Whitaker:Well what about you know Novak Djokovic being such a big element of the book was really interesting. Do you think he's got another major in him or do you kind of subscribe to the theory that I think certainly I have, I think Catherine has as well, that yes, he might be the most likely guy still to reach the semis, but there are maybe other guys now who are more likely to actually beat Alcresne Sinner, maybe just with his body breaking down and what it takes out of him now to kind of live with those guys. Do you think he's got another major in him or not? I think a lot of it comes down to, you know, whether he's willing to put in another season of work.

1:05:33And I think perhaps, I can't speak for Novak Djokovic, obviously, but I think maybe that decision even changed over the course of the summer after playing those matches against Yannick Sinner on those two surfaces. And seeing even on grass, which was probably Djokovic's best look, at adding another major, just how good Sinner is. And, you know, you look at the schedule Djokovic has had where it seems like he's really whittled it down to the essentials in terms of his tour stops. Is he going to do this again? Maybe one more season, I think. But I don't think he'll be beating either of these two at a major tournament.

1:06:16Yeah, I'm with you.

1:06:18Matt Roberts:Gary, thank you so much for your time today. this has been awesome it really has and it's an awesome book I'm gonna do my breakfast TV thing again but try not to hold the book up in front of the microphone so nobody can see changeover a young rivalry and a new era of men's tennis it is out tomorrow August the 19th in the US and it is out September the 11th in the UK and it's brilliant I loved it I really did it is it's Beautifully written, but incredibly accessible. And you had me at Philip Larkin. Yeah, I love that poem. And thank you guys so much for having me on to talk about the book and look forward to seeing you in New York.

1:07:03Matt Roberts:Yeah, likewise. Really can't wait. Let's puke this time. Yes. Same amounts of fun, I hope. Giri, thank you so much. Thank you all for listening to the Tennis Podcast. We will see you in New York.