The Big Andy Murray Interview

31:48Yeah, so the thing is, and I think that again, it's a regret of mine, obviously, as a player, you a lot of players just follow what the schedule says you have to do and Novak's a good example of that this year where he hasn't done that and at times Federer didn't do that and you are allowed to miss tournaments. obviously there is certain penalties in place for that. So, yeah, there's a bit of a balance to it. And that's where, since these longer Masters series came in, I was sitting on the ATB Player Council when this got voted for to change the Masters series to longer events. And I was completely against that change because, one, I liked the Masters use, how they were.

32:44I thought they were, you know, they were great events. And my feeling was just that it's not, yes, you would, the feeling from the ATP at the time was that there would be less injuries because you would have more time to recover between matches. My feeling was, was that, yeah, but if you put like two week tournaments on, there's like less time for players to actually recover. as well and I think part of the issue now is where I don't think there's anything that suggests that players are getting injured more than before. I think there's always been injuries and I don't think there's evidence to back that up but I do think players are more tired and I think mentally are more fatigued than they were before because they're spending more days away and more days on the road and when you're more fatigued you're more sensitive to pain and discomfort and I think that that my feeling is that that is what players are feeling now is you know you're just being away and being on the road for longer than you used to be rather than you know that the matches are like physically so players are obviously hitting the ball harder and stuff but you know the matches I don't think they're so much more demanding than they were 10, 15 years ago, but it's the amount of time that players are away on the road that's actually an issue.

34:22We all listened to the podcast you did with Romesh, which was great. But one of the, there was obviously lots of fun stuff in it, but one of the profound lines that really got me was you saying that you you're proud of your career now but you weren't when you were in it like is that I felt quite sad hearing that that sort of in the moment you couldn't feel couldn't feel proud like how I don't know is that is do you wish you could have been proud at the time or do you think that feeling of always wanting more was what enabled you to achieve what you did yeah so so like part Part of probably that is, you know, maybe helped me become more successful because I was always like striving for more.

35:15But at the same time, I spent my whole career, you know, sort of getting compared to your results are getting compared to Roger Federer or Novak Djokovic and Nadal. So and these are the people I was competing against and trying to get become as good as or better than. So when you're looking at them and you're seeing that they've won 10 Grand Slams, 15 Grand Slams, 20 Grand Slams, the achievements when you're just in the middle of that, you know, seem like insignificant almost. Which is literally within probably a week to 10 days of retiring, my perspective completely changed on my own career. Like at times, you know, when I was in the middle of it, you know, like number three in the world or four in the world.

36:08And it's rubbish. Or, you know, you get to the final of the Australian Open for the fifth time and it's a terrible result. And, you know, the media will also help you feel that way at times as well. You know, like in sport is difficult in that sense is that you have a great achievement. and you're made to feel like it is a failure as well. And, you know, the athletes, obviously, because we're competitive and want to win, we feel that too. But when, you know, going to a press conference afterwards and it's like, you know, the mood is so, like, disappointing and stuff, you know, you will feel it, you know, feel it more.

36:49So, yeah, when you're in the thick of it and it's your job and everything, like, you know, disappointed when I didn't win majors you put so much into it that it you know you feel a bit like you failed but when I finished my career and I like I went and watched my daughter running a cross-country race and she finished like seventh and I was like oh my god that's unbelievable like it's so good so like as a parent like I'm like that's amazing like finishing seventh out of 100 kids in like the local school area but when I was playing tennis like we finished second in one of the biggest competitions and you're like this is just a disaster it's just not an ideal way to look at things it's hard to get much happiness and pleasure out of the sport when that is you know the mindset I think a lot of athletes suffer from it one of the things that struck us last night when we were looking at your head-to-heads against Novak and Roger and Rafa, you know, your three big contemporaries and rivals, is just how many times you did beat them.

37:58You know, you beat them a lot. I mean, is that something that in hindsight, given what we know of them now, how incredible their careers have been, that that must give you some pleasure in hindsight yeah I mean yeah like when I watch myself play now um which is rare like you know the odd thing pops up on you know my Instagram feed or whatever um and yeah like you know like watching myself play now like when I was playing it was like so judgmental of like everything it's like oh you know the ball toss is wrong oh god that foreign's so bad or whatever whereas now I watch it and I'm like, wow, it was good.

38:40I could play pretty well. I certainly didn't always feel like that when I was in the middle of my career. I think you posted the highlights of your Australian Open semifinal against Federer in 2013 the other day and you were like, we were pretty good. That match always sticks in my mind. I think Simon Briggs of The Telegraph called it kind of a five-set thrashing. You were so good in that match and Federer was fighting hard and extended it to five. Can you just talk a little bit about your rivalry with Roger specifically? Something that I realised is you won six of your first eight meetings against Federer, like right in Federer's prime.

39:25kind of what was it about that matchup that you sort of took to early on there that you were having so much success against him do you think? Yeah so I watched him like loads when I was growing up and I used to I took notes from watching matches on watch matches with him on Sky like I had an injury when I was 15 I think it was I didn't play for like six months and I, you know, I really enjoyed watching him. Like I loved watching him play, but I also like, I felt like I knew, again, this is like from a strategical point of view, like I felt like I knew how to play against him, but certainly was never always going to execute it well because of how good he is.

40:15But I had a clear idea of how it was I wanted to play against him. And, you know, that certainly helped me early on, you know, when I, you know, when I competed against him. And the matchup was not like a great matchup for me. Like I still lost more than I won against him. But yeah, like it was, you know, it was a good match. I had chances to win when I played against him. Obviously, you know, in the Grand Slams, I didn't, certainly didn't do as well. And I think, you know, part of that was, yes, his game, but also like the psychological impact of him having won multiple majors, me never having won one.

40:54And that, you know, the nerves that I would feel going into those matches and the pressure that would feel. Obviously, he would have felt that too. He would have felt the pressure and I'm not saying that I would. But I think if I played him the first time in slams when neither of us had won one, I probably would have felt a bit different going on the court. Whereas, you know, he had this aura about him and, you know, was always sort of described as, you know, he's the best tennis player of all time. That to overcome him is, you know, is challenging in those, like, the biggest matches. But the match-up itself, like, I felt like I matched up quite well.

41:36Is there anything strategically or tactically you could just let us in on, on what for you it meant to play Roger and beat him?

41:47I got on very well with Roger now. So, yeah, it meant, well, obviously, yeah, it meant a lot for me to win against him because he was someone I watched as a kid. Like, I loved his game, you know, but I, yeah, I felt like, you know, his backhand was a side that people would say, like, oh, his backhand was, like, weak. But, I mean, in relation to what? Like, his backhand would still have been one of the best backhands in the world. But in relation to, like, his forehand, like, it was clear that that was a side that you could maybe attack. and my backhand cross court was one of my best shots. And I also used to like playing this sort of high forehand down the line that was sort of slow.

42:37That for him, I think, I'd be interested to actually know, and I've never asked him about it, but I didn't always hit it like super deep. It was like kind of like high but short in the box. And for a one-hander, it's difficult. You need to make a decision like early, like what do I do with this ball? Do I step into the court and try and take it early? Or, you know, they have to either, like, retreat and go back behind the baseline. Or, you know, am I going to slice this ball? And I felt like that shot gave him some trouble, particularly early on when we played. Obviously, he figured that out the more I played against him.

43:15But, you know, there was a few things in the matchup that I felt like I could. and I think just because I've watched like hours of him play like initially like reading his game a lot of that had kind of been done before I went on the court with him the first few times what was it like being part of Rafa's retirement ceremony at Roland Garros last year yeah yeah I was I was amazing and I think you know he obviously like deserved that and he seemed to be really touched by the whole thing. I thought the... Is it the footprint that's on the court? Yeah. Yeah, like, I thought that was really cool. And, yeah, he seemed to love it, which I think is what the most important thing is.

44:05Like, obviously, it's nice if it makes everyone that's watching it feel, you know, emotional and, you know, they enjoy it, but Rafa seemed to really, really love it. So it was, yeah, it was great. I enjoyed going. And, you know, it was actually like beforehand was also nice as well because I don't think Rafa didn't know that we were all going to go and we were sitting in like a room just with Roger for the most part and his agent just chatting about tennis and our matches and what the game's like now and things like that, which, yeah, which was fun too. So did things like that, or maybe specifically that event that help you feel like proud to have been, you were talking about sort of feeling of inadequacy because your career achievements were compared to those other three.

44:57But I guess the other side of that coin is you were a part of that big four, like one of the most incredible institutions that tennis has ever seen. like did a moment like that in Paris last year help you feel proud of being part of that yeah I mean look I I'm fully aware like where I sit in the pegging order there like I know that what all of those guys have gone on to achieve is far superior to anything that I did on you know on the tennis court um but I you know also there was a period like in the middle part of my career where most major events, whether that was the Slams, Masters Series, Olympics, Davis Cup, that one of those four players was winning.

45:47I granted most of the time it was then, but it wasn't always. And yeah, like I was proud to have been part of that period. And again, I'm fully aware that what they've achieved is incredible. And I think it's amazing what they've done. But yeah, there was a period in the middle part where, you know, I was competing against them for the biggest tournaments most weeks. And I didn't ask to go to Rafa's ceremony. He'd asked for me to go. So I went, like, because he asked me to go. So when people say to me, like, oh, well, you know, what's he doing there? You know, why is he there? I was like, well, I didn't invite myself to go on.

46:34How did it feel to be asked in that moment? I was like, yeah, great. Like, you know, I'd absolutely be there if that's what he wanted. If he said no or when Novak finishes, he doesn't want me to go there. And that's fine as well. But it's not me, like, forcing my way into that situation, like, unwanted. So, yeah. Did you get one of the T-shirts? I don't think I did get one of the T-shirts, actually. They're going big money on eBay. I heard about that. Yeah, I heard they were going for big money. Have you kept yours or are you? I gave it to my mum. Did you? And she put it on eBay. She actually wore it to the Rafa Nadal Academy that she visited this year.

47:19And she was gutted that no one noticed it and said, oh, were you at the retirement ceremony? Because she had a little story to tell. But no, no one noticed. She was a bit annoyed about that. just on Rafa actually while we're talking about him obviously I feel like the thing that gets talked about the most with Nadal is obviously his incredible record on clay something that I'd be interested to hear from you about was what it was like facing him on grass because you had some Wimbledon quarterfinals and semifinals against him like what was the challenge of facing Nadal because I think people forget like he reached five Wimbledon finals in a row in terms of when he was playing the event like early in his career.

48:01He maybe took some losses later in his career that were surprising but he was so good on grass quite early. I'm just wondering what was the specific challenge for you? What did he do so well on that surface that people maybe don't always think about? Well, I would say that probably like his, he served differently on grass than how he did on a clay court, for example. that that was my feeling anyway of like sometimes I played and practiced against him on clay and it seemed like the only like at times the only focus was to get the first serve in and play the point from there so you didn't really have a chance to like attack his second serve whereas I played and practiced with him quite a lot on grass and on grass he it this is just how it felt to me as a player, I don't know if this is actually the reality.

48:56I haven't looked at, like, can't remember looking at, like, the stats and all that to back it up, but he felt like he served faster, tried to serve more aces, tried to get more free points on his first serve. And then on the second serve, I felt like he also upped his speed at times on the grass court. And because of the nature of the surface, his second serve became a little bit harder to return and he would serve quite a lot to me on a grass court like into my forehand body so whereas on a clay court that doesn't because of the way the ball reacts off the court the spin wouldn't really cause too much issue the serve would maybe come with a little bit more like slow down off the court a bit like top spin or kick whereas on a grass court that wouldn't happen and it would sort of slide through and come into my body and that was I found returning against him significantly harder on a grass court than on the clay.

49:53And then from the back of the court, like his forehand was great on every surface. I think that rarely sort of let him down. I mean, at times, like if you played very fast into that side, you could get a shorter ball for sure. But in offensive positions, his forehand was brutal on a grass court as well. And then, I mean, he showed it off on a clay court as well, but probably more so on a grass court. It's like, you know, he finished up at the net really well. Like, he had very solid volleys, good hands. He was quick at the net, like anticipates well at the net. And he was able to use those skills more on a grass court than maybe he did on the clay.

50:39so yeah there was a few things that he did differently on on the surfaces but they would be a couple well one of the um the things looking at the head-to-heads he had against the three of them and things we've heard all four of you talk about is the work you were putting in constantly trying to well make incremental improvements or adjustments and and as matt was saying you won six first eight against federer and then at the end of his career or the end of the rivalry rather when you're still kind of at your peak, he starts to win a lot in a row. And we've seen that with adjustments the two of them, the three of them have made against each other.

51:20Can you remember Federer maybe bringing something a little different towards the end of that rivalry? Can you remember any changes that you made against any of the other three that really made things improve for you during the rivalries?

51:40I would say that Federer over the years got progressively more offensive, particularly with his court position.

51:51My second serve was average at best. And I would say that as I played against him more, Like he was more offensive on second serve return, tried to get on his forehand more when I was hitting second serves. Whereas at the beginning, like he would often sort of stand on the baseline. And if I served his back, he would just like chip it back and start the rally. Whereas towards the end, he was making more of an effort to get on his forehand and really like attack immediately in the rallies. So when I was serving, that was something he definitely did differently. I would say again like his court position that I think got got tighter to the baseline as his career went on.

52:38He always was pretty offensive, but I would say more so if you watch him from like 2003-04 to towards the end, it was you can notice you can notice a difference there. and then yeah like with Novak Novak was a difficult match for me because very similar like game styles but he was just like everything was just a little bit better and I would say that the only area where I was probably stronger was at the net but then it's hard to sort of exploit, it's not like he's I don't know if I'm good at the net. He's not a terrible net player, but how do you make that work in your advantage? If I want to bring him up to the net, it's not an easy thing to do.

53:32You can at times, but you can't spend every point hitting drop shots or hitting short balls to try and get him to come forward. So it wasn't really that easy for me. The one advantage that I had, I couldn't use in every single point one of the things that when when I was working with Ivan Lendl and we had lots and lots of information data particularly in the matchup with Novak and one of the things which there was a big difference so when I would hit slice backhand to Novak and when I got it to his backhand most of the time he would come back with a slice and his slice is sort of quite slow whereas someone like Federer like really knifes his slice it was like a strength of his Novak wouldn't miss many but it was a slower ball and when I got on my forehand after that shot so when he sliced and I was the one to get on my forehand the percentage of points I won got was significantly higher so that was something towards the end when I played against him that I focused on a lot So when I would bring the slice into the rally, immediately trying to get on my forehand as much as possible.

54:49And that seemed to help a bit against him. And then Rafa, I don't remember playing him loads towards the end, really. It felt like a long time since I played him. I can't really remember exactly from a strategical sort of perspective. But there was always things you were trying to adjust and learn from the previous match. But the thing that's hard and with great players like those guys is that they're also looking at those matches as well that you've just played and are like, well, which things work? Which things would I do differently next time? And, you know, they're not showing up on the court with exactly the same game plan every single time.

55:27So you're always trying to make adjustments, but you have to be mindful in the match that, you know, things change. And that for me is one of the hardest things about tennis and what I loved before the sort of pre-coaching era was that like on-court coaching was that you, you as the player had to decide like, when do I decide that this strategy is not working? You know, is this like six games into the match? Do you wait a set to see if it's working? is it you know did you have any examples of that in a match against one of those where oh my word they're doing something different to what I expected or this is just not working and you change I mean off the top of my head I can't think of a like a specific match but yes like playing against them there would be you know when you play against them like as many times you go on the court and things are not happening as you want or expect and it's trying to calculate like whether is this not working because I'm just not executing it properly or well enough or is it because they're doing something differently or does this just not work like I thought it was going to and it is not and these are things that you have to work out when you're you know when you're on the court I thought Rafa probably was probably the strongest at that I would say You know, I think, you know, he did always get a little bit of additional help from Tony on the side.

56:57But I think he was brilliant at that, you know, making the adjustments during matches and constantly changing his return position or, you know, starting to use a slice more or changing the heights of the ball and things. I would say that he was very, very good at that. I always think of the 2022 Australian Open final is like the ultimate example of Rafa doing that. You're big into data as a player and a coach, sounds like. Do you think tennis makes enough of data? Tennis is probably like quite far behind other sports in that sense. And like you, in a lot of the team sports, like they've been using like wearable technology for like, well certainly the last decade but probably longer whereas it's only been allowed since last year on the ATP tour so up until recently players haven't known what's my heart rate doing in a five set match and what's the load on my body and you know all of those sorts of things I mean you could get estimates or guesstimates but nothing exact so I think that certainly is something that should help the sport, like help players and teams understand how they should be training more effectively, which would then hopefully reduce injury risk and things like that.

58:26And then data has been around for a while, but it's only recently been, sorry, like statistics and stuff for matches. It's been around a while, but it's only really become available to all the players, like fairly recently in the last few years, whereas beforehand you had like a lot of the top players paying, you know, companies to provide their data on their matches, which, you know, was an advantage for sure. Whereas now a lot of that data is available to all of the players on one platform. So I could log on and see Alcaraz's last 80 hard court matches and look at his serving patterns and things like that.

59:12But again, that's also challenging because players change from week to week sometimes. And it's knowing how to present that data in the correct way to your player. And lots of the, I would say, sort of... The older generation of coaches probably didn't have that when they were playing themselves and then didn't have it during their coaching career. So I don't think some of them are reluctant to use it as well. And some people think it's just overkill and there's too much analysis and too much data and there's not enough sort of feel for how someone should play against an Alcaraz or whoever. So it's hard.

1:00:03And then that comes down to the player, I think, and what does the player actually want, rather than the coach just going, I'm very analytical, I love data, so I'm just going to throw all of it at this player when actually someone like an Alcaraz plays a lot on instinct, I think, and probably don't want to overcomplicate things for him. So, yeah. Did you see the picture he posted last week of him watching the Davis Cup? No. The picture of his living room with all his trophies chaotically cascaded around his living room. Oh, really? He's got like his Wimbledon trophy. At the back, on the top shelf.

1:00:39On an Ikea bookshelf and sort of the Cincinnati ceramic. It's chaos. You need to get a proper trophy. Very endearing chaos. Where are all your trophies? um so when we moved house my wife made like a like a trophy cabinet like it's downstairs out the way but yeah there's one in there must be pretty big yeah yeah it is pretty big yeah it's decent uh decent decent size um yeah but actually i mean like i'm fine with them obviously like being in there but you know it's not I don't go and you know I don't go and look at them like daily and I'm like oh look you know I'm not it's not yeah not something I think about um yeah not something I think about loads but yeah is the is one of the Olympic golds is it the Wimbledon Museum it was yeah I actually got it back last week yeah it'd been in there for I think about a year um but yeah I got it I got it back recently the the Olympic medals in the trophy cabinet as well do you ever Olympic medals yeah they're they're in there do you ever wear them wear them my kids wear them my kids sometimes uh yeah okay and I was quite precious about them at the beginning but no I'm just whatever scratch them up and stuff keep them up yeah one of them wanted to take one of them into school I don't know what it was they were doing some that would be a pretty doing something.

1:02:12Good show in school, wouldn't it? Come on. My dad's Olympic medal. Yeah, we're like, no, that's a bit much to send them in with one of them. So we gave them like my Beijing Olympics like participation medal instead, which they were happy with. Have you got your Olympic pins still? I've still got all of them, yeah. Yeah, I've kept all of them. They'll be worth something on eBay as well. Yeah, maybe, yeah. I mean, that was something that at the time, like I absolutely loved doing it every single Olympics whereas now I'm a bit like did I just spend a bit too much time walking around like the village and like stopping like at different tables in the restaurant just like oh that guy's from Eritrea like that's a rare pin like I'll go over and ask him if he's got one and they're just like did anybody ever refuse?

1:03:02scrambled eggs I'm like okay did anyone ever refuse to give you a pin? yeah I mean you get rejected all of the time all the time right okay like it's a proper game like you know what people want to stop you having them so they can beat you yeah and also like you know they obviously want pins in exchange for you giving you know some people don't care they just want to get rid of them so that they when people show up and they're like oh do you have any pins like no I don't have any yeah but yes it's a bit of a game and I I got really quite into it. And I got most of the, I'd say most of the tennis team were not into it to the same level as me, but I got quite a few of them on board, I think.

1:03:50Andy Murray in competitive shock. Yeah. You mentioned earlier on that you voted against that decision to extend the Masters 1000s. Now that you're out of it all, you can look on from the side, what would you do with tennis I mean if you could I mean if you could if you could start again is there is there a is there a change above all other that you'd love to see the tours the circuit the sport make um yeah that well there's there's quite a few things like there's a few things that I would probably change. At that time as well, there was exemptions at the Masters Series level. You could get up to three exemptions, and they were quite hard to achieve.

1:04:44One of them was, I think, it was an age-related one. So I think it was over 30, but it could have been more, like 32 or something. But you had to be over 30. you were allowed to miss one and not get penalized. There was a match-related one. So if you played over, again, I'm going to get this wrong, but it was, let's say, 600 matches. You were exempt. And then there was one that was like a certain amount of years of service on the tour. So let's say it was like 12 years of service. So you could, in theory, miss up to three Masters 3s and not get penalized. and that was one of the other things that when this vote was taking place was that the masters series were like well we want to put up all of this prize money we want more days but we want to get rid of the exemptions which again I was totally I was against that because I just think it's like players get older like you you need to prioritize like certain tournaments and obviously your body has wear and tear on it and you need to make decisions like at times like well, I'd like to play this tournament, but, you know, the right thing for me is to skip events.

1:06:02And also, and I believe this used to be the case, but if not, it should be, is that, like, let's say you missed, with one of those exemptions, let's say I missed the Paris Masters one year. Well, then you can't miss that same Masters series the following season. and I think that that's something that I think they should bring the exemptions back for players so then at some stage like you're allowed to miss events but also bring back the because then the tournaments are not going to be like well I'm not I don't want that because then Alcaraz could just miss you know whichever Masters series he doesn't like for the rest of his career without any penalties and I think that's also where and I know a lot of people wouldn't like it because it would mess with records and things like that.

1:06:54I don't know if there's a way around it, but having like a two-year ranking system would allow players to feel less pressure to have to compete every single week for ranking points and worry about losing their ranking if they get an injury for three or four months. You know, that's something that I think could help, but I don't know how that would work with, you know, with like the record books. You know, that's a challenge if you go down to your ranking system. And yeah, there's loads of other things that I would, you know, I would want to change. How protective do you feel of best of five in men's tennis?

1:07:39like is that a red line is protecting the existence of best of five in men's tennis in grand slams is that a a red line that you wouldn't cross or do you think that kind of everything needs to be on the table because it would solve a lot a lot of problems getting rid of best of five or having some sort of system where it's best of three for men and women in the first week of slams best of five second week of slams it would it would even up the formats across men's and women's tennis. It would protect bodies. There'd be a lot of advantages to it, but it's obviously something that, for good reason, people within the sport are fiercely protective of because there's a lot of highs.

1:08:19And this year, you've got the example of the French Open final where it's pretty hard to campaign for getting rid of best of five when you've just had that match that wouldn't have existed without it. Yeah, and I think that, for me, best of five, was great for better players. The longer the matches go on, more chances for you to come back and figure out and work things out. So as a player, I loved it. As a fan, I personally, this is just, I would not sit and watch a best of five set match now, because it's too long. Have a family, got other things to do. I wouldn't watch, but tennis fans seem to enjoy best of five formats.

1:09:06But I think what it comes back to is like, what is actually the problem like with tennis? Like, what is it that everyone wants to change? Like, what is so bad about it? Like, it's hard, like people, not everyone like agrees on what the issues actually are. And like some people, like players will always complain. I did when I was a player, a lot of the things that the players are complaining about now, they were complaints. 20 years ago, you know, whether it's prize money related, too many tournaments, schedules wrong. You know, the players will always complain about stuff, probably. But I think for things to change, probably the players need to be very clear about what it is.

1:09:58What do you actually want? what are actually the problems and does everyone actually agree on them because sometimes you might hear players say too many tournaments, play too much generally it's the top players that will say that players rank 70 in the world maybe doesn't want less tournaments they maybe want as many tournaments as possible to earn money and more ranking points or opportunities for ranking points and things Whereas, you know, the top 10 players in the world, like generally they feel like they want to play less, which is understandable. They play more matches and stuff. But then, but then, yeah, they also they want to play exhibitions as well.

1:10:47And, you know, it's like, oh, there's too many tournaments. Oh, but the mixed doubles at the US Open, like that's a new event. And we all want to play in that. This is an amazing idea. We all want to play more tennis because we're getting paid lots of money to do it and we're getting appearance fees to play. But then lots and lots of other tennis players, particularly the doubles players, were hating that idea. But the top players loved it. So there's always, like, it's hard to get all of the players to always agree on things. There's too many tournaments. we're going to put a new Masters here in Saudi Arabia there's going to be lots and lots of money oh yeah that's a great idea we all want to play in that event that's really good so it's hard to know exactly what it is that what all the tournaments won what the Grand Slams won what the players won and to come to some sort of agreement it's very difficult Would you have wanted to play in that event?

1:11:50And you famously turned down a big offer from Saudi. Yeah, so I think where it becomes difficult is that, you know, there's obviously exhibitions and players choosing to go and play there for money. And the tour that you were playing as part of making decisions about where they're going to host an event. And if they're going to put a Masters series on and it's a mandatory event that players have to go and play, well, then I'm going to play there because the ATP are putting an event on there and it's part of my tour and I'm going to go and compete there because that's how I earn my living. Whereas an exhibition is a decision that a player is taking.

1:12:31Like, I want to go and play in this event. I want to earn lots of money. I was offered to play in an exhibition in Saudi Arabia. Multiple times I said no, that I wasn't going to do that. But then, yeah, we also play in lots of countries around the world that have maybe questionable human rights records. And we went and played in those countries, particularly when it was part of our tour, and that was not considered a problem. So, yes, it's challenging. You know, it's challenging for the sport to get everything right and to keep everybody happy. but I do think there is things that like one of the things that players complain about all of the time is they say and I was one of them as well I'm not saying that it's just players of today like you know players 20 years ago complained about it and stuff it was like the tennis balls you know it's like oh tennis balls are changing every week tennis balls are so heavy is what you hear all of the time and the tennis balls are not more heavy than they used to be.

1:13:47Like, there is a limit that they have to sit between, which has been the same for, like, over 20 years. So tennis balls are not heavier than they used to be, but the game has changed, I would say, and players are hitting the ball harder, for sure. The courts have become, like, grainier and slower, generally. And the balls, because of that, like, because I think because the player is hitting the ball harder, grainier courts, slower courts, sandy courts, is that the balls, it always sounds funny talking about this, but the balls fluff up more, you know, then they're less aerodynamic, they become slower, so they're not actually heavier, they're just slower tennis balls, and I feel like if that is the case, that what the tours could do is just easily, like, why don't you change balls after five and seven games instead of seven and nine games?

1:14:46Like, if that is an issue for the players or why don't you start the match with nine balls instead of six balls? You know, yes, there's probably, you know, a cost that comes with that. But if that is something that all of the players have an issue with, then why could they not do that? And also, like, if they're worried about the balls changing every week well it couldn't the couldn't the tours like create their own tennis ball um and then whoever is whether it's i don't know wilson head yon x like if they want to sponsor the ball for the event just sponsor it and print the yon x logo on it or the wilson logo or whatever and the players then have got the same ball for a whole season or a whole string of events like on the hard courts or clay and you don't hear the complaints about them changing ball.

1:15:45The players would probably still find a way to complain about it. But if they were the same every week, then you can eliminate that quite quickly, I would think. I don't know if that's something that the manufacturers want, but I don't think it's good for manufacturers to create a ball and then the players to be just saying every week, oh, this ball's terrible, posting pictures of it. Look at the difference from one game to the next. These balls are awful. So I don't see why that couldn't work. Was being on the player council frustrating from all these points of view? Sort of lack of unity of feeling and cohesion and sort of cohesion of agendas and aims?

1:16:33Yeah, I hated it. And I went back to do it a second time because I'd been asked to do it. And I was like, I didn't enjoy it first time. Did it again. But yeah, I just, I didn't enjoy it because, you know, sometimes you would be sitting in meetings like the day before a Masters series for three or four hours. And, you know, it didn't feel like much was getting done. like you you know tennis tennis players like obviously we understand their sport but also we're not like intelligent people most of us um you know are well educated either so you get like 10 of us in a room like talking about stuff that we don't really know that much about um you know like from a business perspective um and yeah at times it was just like lots of players having conversations to the person next to them and actually nothing really gets done and then at times I remember going into meetings with the slams with with Roger Rafa Novak about about prize money I can't remember exactly what year it was but anyway went to quite a lot of these meetings and spoke to all the slams you know individually before these slams took place which is obviously a time where you know you want to be concentrating and focusing on your tennis and preparing and stuff but you know did it because felt like it was the right thing to do and then the slams at the end of that year like they increased their prize money and i remember it was like australia announced um when we were there i think like you know that they were going to increase their prize money or whatever and then the first player that I saw, I'm not going to name his name, went up to him and was like, who'd been complaining and was so vocal about the prize money at the time.

1:18:30I was like, look, I was like, they did it. Like, we went and spoke to them, they did it. They've upped the prize money by however much it was. And he was like, yeah, but it's not enough. And I'm like, you know, like, so I don't know. I don't know what it is that exactly what it is that the players won. And yes, the players, I feel, should probably get paid more at the Grand Slams. But I think if they really want to change it, they need to be very clear about what it is that they actually want. And I think the Tour could be, you know, the ideal thing, I think, would be like if the Australian Open was like two weeks later.

1:19:16But then it makes sense to do it. like that because the players then get a longer off season time to rest and then actually build up and prepare.

1:19:29But then the Australian Open don't want to move because it's then not in the kids' summer holidays so they're back at school and they're worried about attendance and things like that. So yeah, I don't know. there's just there's always there's always um yeah there's always problems yeah that just about sums it up should we finish with some more stuff about you some lighter stuff i'm curious um what's like the most normal thing that you've gotten to do and gotten to enjoy that you didn't used to get to do like i mean i probably i wouldn't describe it as like a normal thing to do we're lucky that were able to do it but uh skiing like I've absolutely loved doing that I never never skied in my life had always wanted to like I love the snow is that because of risk of injury yeah I mean I I think contractually there's a few issues around getting injured doing like extreme sports um it invalidates health insurance so I'm sure yeah so I think you need to be a bit careful about doing it.

1:20:44I know some players, you know, I think like Sinner and like Novak's a very good skier as well. So yeah, I know that lots of players do it, but I never skied as a kid. I'd always wanted to ski, but was pretty much everyone I know that has skied has injured themselves skiing. My best friend who went skiing with Ross Hutchins, who's now got a big job at the ITF as well so a lot of these issues we're discussing he'll be responsible for no but yeah like he fractured his eye socket when we went last time yeah so lots of people I know that ski have had bad injuries so have you okay okay in terms of no injuries I mean okay in terms of my level of skiing no okay it's pretty ropey but i've loved doing that like yeah like a new thing that i've got to experience since i finished which i've done with my friends and family that you know kids are learning to ski and yeah like amazing yeah just amazing thing to get to do great skill to have and brilliant holiday so yeah i've seen you um advertising potatoes yes um do you now that you've got there's time on your hands apart from the golf have you got a specialist go-to family meal that you prep are you uh do you like time in the kitchen apart from the potatoes um what's your favorite type of potato like if you could only have one type of potato sorry to hijack your question just to stay on potatoes for another moment mashed jacket dauphinoise I mean I like a thick cut chip Oh you don't No I'm a skinny fry person Well skinny is more unhealthy Yeah but it's about vinegar absorption Vinegar on chips Vinegar on everything that can go on Ketchup or brown sauce So you're telling me you hand make chips No No no No, I don't hand make them.

1:23:03Sorry, back to David's question. So my cooking, I don't cook.

1:23:10I'm a terrible cook. I'm glad I hijacked the question. I used to cook more. So we get these sort of, they're not ready meals, but from Mindful Chef. Oh, yes. Yeah, so I would do them. You do this. But there's obviously like there's a recipe that you follow and all of the ingredients are there so you don't mess up like the amount of stuff. It's a lot of handholding. Yeah. But the problem for me is that I will follow the instruction down to a T. And if something is not going quite right, I haven't had no idea how to make adjustments. So like if I was making like like a sauce that needed to be thicker and the 20 minutes was up or however long it was meant to be.

1:23:58it was like panic stations. So I didn't know how to react to issues in the kitchen. And then we ended up having a terrible meal when I was doing that. So then I retired from cooking as well as tennis.

1:24:17Yeah, I was all right, because I was just cooking for myself. So if it was a disaster, you hadn't got disappointed faces looking like that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but when you're trying to feed a family, It's a bit of pressure. Yeah, kids aren't always that... Forgiving? Yeah, forgiving. If you get a meal wrong or something's not quite right, particularly my four-year-old, she'll let you know. If they enjoyed having you around more.

1:24:49I think so. It takes them getting used to for the family, because I'm guessing they had a routine. like yeah I mean particularly my eldest for particularly my eldest daughter um the rest of them not so much because yes I was still playing at the end but there was also quite quite a few periods where I was at home um a lot through the injuries and and things so I wasn't on the road quite as much whereas with my eldest daughter like it was I think quite like a big change for her like a big adjustment and like because you know she was finding it hard like if I had to be the one to take her to school or to pick her up and take her to a club or being around her friends and things like that um and that's something that she certainly was finding um difficult and if I was getting any attention when I was with her she really like struggled with you know really struggled with that and it was only last week when I picked her up from netball and it was the first time she actually walked next to me back to the car and yeah I said to her I was like you know that that's the first time you've ever and she sort of smiled at me and I think now is a bit less embarrassed by me for now for now yeah I mean I'm sure in a few years that's you know that's coming But, yeah, like this morning, like my son's got into board games.

1:26:19Like I already had, they were up at 5.45. That's every morning two of them get up at that time. I was playing Monopoly 6 a.m. this morning with a six-year-old. That'll get the competitive juices flowing. Yeah, so yesterday. It's quite a long time to play a game of Monopoly. My parents had to ban Monopoly in my house. Because it caused so many arguments to me and my brother, yeah. Yeah, so I taught him how to play Monopoly a few days ago. And then I played with him yesterday. I played two games with him. And he won the first game. And then the second game, he was in a good position. And he'd got it in his head that it was just me and him playing that he wanted to put hotels on Mayfair and Park Lane.

1:27:11This was Monopoly's Sterling edition, by the way. which it's Stirling Castle and somewhere else in Stirling. Okay. So he decided he wanted to put hotels on the two blue ones. He only had Mayfair. So I was explaining to him, like, yeah, but you need to land on this one first. You've got three of this, the red ones. You should probably think about putting the houses and stuff on there first. And he was like, no, I'm going to save my money. I want to land on this one. And I was like, yeah, but you may never land on it. Anyway, I had the purple ones and the orange ones, or the pink ones and the orange ones.

1:27:52And I had a few, like, three houses on the pink ones. He was in a great position. He had lots of money. Landed on the pink ones, got whatever it was, 400, 500 quid. And then I used that money to put, like, a hotel on the orange ones. and then on his next role he landed on the hotel, killed him off. Took him down. Bottom lip. Went. Gone. And I'm like, That's an important life lesson. Yeah, like, you need to do it. Like, you need to learn. But I'm like, now I have to deal with, like, a meltdown over a game of Monopoly that I've been playing for the last two hours. Anyway, that's what I do now. I can tell, yeah.

1:28:36Yeah. um how do you say on Romesh's podcast you've got ambitions to be a caddy is that right I mean I would I would like to do it um but it was like in a certain context like becoming a caddy full-time is not something I would do but I was like as like a dream job like For me now, if you could say, it's a realistic thing, it's possible. I couldn't say, oh, I want to win the Masters in golf, but saying, oh, I could become a caddy. And imagine caddying for Rory McIlroy or Robert McIntyre in the last group of a major. That would be a cool thing to do for someone who loves golf. But I have no plans to actually become a professional caddy and do the job full time.

1:29:34There's a lot of work and travel involved. And, you know, these guys are bloody good as well. Like, they spend years, like, understanding, like, that profession. And they're all, most of them, very, very good golfers as well. So, I mean, it's something you could probably do for a week. Like some, you know, players have, you know, their partners with them on the bag and stuff. Like, you know, they're not all amazing golfers, but. My golf coach's wife is his caddy. Really? Mm-hmm. And I think Lee Westwood's wife as well. They remain married. Yeah. Yeah. Are you up for offering some golf tips or assessments?

1:30:17Yeah. As a final thing, we have a one-minute video. I haven't asked about the traitors yet, David. Well, that is true. We have a one-minute video of Matt and my swing, and we're curious to know what you think. Have a look. This is Indian Wells, a couple of years ago. Right, so, I mean, even before you started... Oh, no. I mean, that looks to me like you're literally, like... I mean, it's okay. It looks like quite a lot of your weight is on your heels. It's actually quite useful. already where should it be I think more slightly more towards the like mid front of the foot I would say do you play a lot of golf what do you think what's this see it always makes me laugh when amateurs do this sort of thing because you sort of you might know that you do this you did like a little sort of wiggle little wiggle yeah Matt does that I've got a bit of the manchilic that's going to help and then no but it's I do it as well like you know we go through this like routine and then hit the ball like 20 yards in front of us.

1:31:17And it's just, yeah, it's funny. So you've got a little wiggle going. So... That was his first shot of the round. That was first shot of the round. I mean, I was barely off the plane, to be honest. Yeah, you did the wiggle twice there. Three, three, four. So I'd try and get rid of that. Okay. Right. Wow. You hit a bird there, it looks like. Yeah. That's good. I assume you weren't trying to do that. there's more coming isn't there oh yeah are you do you come on straight after this nice shoes thank you okay oops all right wow i mean those hands are literally in between your legs which is incredible yeah you do have some you do have some serious height um which makes it tricky i mean i'm assuming they're rental clubs as well.

1:32:14So, yeah, I mean, this is where it ended up. Yeah, I mean, did you enjoy your round? I mean, there's not loads I can say about that. I feel worse about it now. It got, it got better. So your advice to David is be less tall and your advice to Matt is get rid of the wiggle. Yeah, I think weight probably slightly further forwards. I mean, the four wiggles before. Cut those out. Yeah, I think it's like fine. you've got to hit a good shot. Yeah, fine if you're going to hit a decent shot, but if you spend that much time preparing to hit the ball that badly, I think the people that you're playing with are like, oh my God, this is his third tee shot, first two have gone in the water.

1:32:56And he's wiggling. Let's just try and get the swing going, I think. Noted. But yeah, I think it looked like you needed maybe some longer clubs, potentially. They looked a little bit small. Okay. And then I'll be fine. Yeah. Guys, one last question. Have you been asked to go on the Celebrity Traitors? No, but it's funny because a lot of people have asked me that and apparently there'd been some articles saying one that I was going to go on the first season and then, I don't know, that I'd been asked to go on the next season. Neither of them are true. I haven't watched it. Would you take the call?

1:33:32No. Do you watch Traitors? I watched one of the first seasons of Traitors with the, like... Civilians. Civilians. Civilians now. Yeah, the Civilians. But, yeah, all of my friends have been talking about the Celebrity one. I haven't, I've not watched any of it. My wife was totally anti the Civilian one, which I was actually quite enjoying. But then, yeah, Celebrity one I've not, I haven't watched yet. I'm sorry to disappoint. You could just be being a great Traitor and, you know... maybe it gets announced next week but I'm on there we'll cross our fingers Andy thank you so much for your time it's been great thank you