US Open - Federer, Carillo steal show as Day 1 beckons

0:10Hello and welcome to the tennis podcast coming to you tonight the eve of the 2026 US Open from Newport, Rhode Island or rather Kingston, Rhode Island, which is about 30 minutes and two bridges away from the town of Newport, which is of course home to the International Tennis. Tennis Hall of Fame, where this evening we watched Mary Carrillo and Roger Federer be inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. To be honest with you, I think all tennis podcasts from now on might end up coming from Rhode Island because we like it here so much we might not leave. Yeah, yeah. This has been a bit of an upgrade on what I was expecting, to be honest.

0:55I thought this would be a good trip. It's been an absolute belter. Can you believe that 24 hours ago we were in a McDonald's on the side of the road in Milford, Connecticut, which I'm sure is a lovely place, by the way. Someone messaged us on Instagram to say, I got married in Milford. And look, we made great memories there too. Different memories. We did. Those chicken nuggets went down well. Yeah, whatever chicken thing I had did not go down well. But yeah, happy memories nonetheless, but nothing quite like what we experienced today, quite frankly. I'm still in a state of emotional and sensory overwhelm, quite frankly, about what we experienced today at the International Tennis Hall of Fame.

1:46So I'm going to need some handholding to get through explaining the experience to our listeners, quite frankly, David. yeah well I think it was significant above all else because the two people involved um on a very personal basis the fact that Mary Carilla was being inducted was the reason we were here I've never been to the International Tennis Hall of Fame before um and it was an absolute treat to come primarily just to see see that moment and to be granted by her a space on the fourth row of the the horseshoe uh where all the all the people that are invited and the people that have been inducted in the past are all sitting um and obviously being followed by roger federer who just sort of means so much to so many people and in so many different ways and his his own response to it that it was it was a very emotional evening and even the fact that we just got to see the hall of fame generally and walk in and walk around the museum and kind of compare it to to wimbledon it was there's a similar sort of feel and and they have done the most marvelous job with with the place over so many years and then just the running of the of the event itself I just don't think they could have done it any better in terms of creating a platform for this celebration, which in strict terms is a little bit peculiar to us in Britain.

3:26We still don't do that many halls of fames, though they're more sort of there's more of them around, but such a big deal made of this. And yet when we were there, I was completely bought into it. I didn't have an ounce of cynicism in my body as I watched Mary Carrillo and Billie Jean King introducing her and Merka Federer, Roger Federer's wife, introducing him and then Federer himself speaking. The whole thing was wonderful. And it was just done in such a good amount of time. I mean, we've just released a T-shirt. We'd cut the faff on it. And there was no faff around this day. And I was braced for it, quite frankly.

4:13I mean, there was a stage. Where there is a stage, there is so often faff. And, yeah, there wasn't any. And the whole thing was it was a TV broadcast. I mean, it was going out live on a lot of significant networks in big countries, obviously here in the US. It was going out live on Sky Sports. And, again, you know, I had in my memory the one-point slam at the Australian Open this year, which we all really enjoyed, but was diminished as an experience by clearly being a TV product first and foremost at the expense of the in-person experience. And to be honest, I think the fact that it was a TV product and they had that in mind with the production seemed to enhance the production to me in terms of the in-person experience because it was so slick and so smooth.

5:07that felt like there was a premium on cutting the faff tonight. And look, I'm saying that not having anything to compare it to, this is our first experience of the Hall of Fame, but I had the exact, you've put it perfectly, David, like my body is programmed as a Brit and as lots of other things as well to try and find cynicism in things, and I could find none. tonight it was so pure and so so joyful and you know we had a lot of conversations with people who said things like have you ever been to the hall of fame before and we all admitted that no we hadn't and without fail they kind of all said well you're coming in an incredible year It is not always like this.

6:02It hasn't always been like this in terms of the amount of people that were there, the amount of, I think, just effort and time that had gone into making this event as special as it could be. and to therefore be there for the first time this year just felt incredibly special for us and you know i i pinched myself the entire time that we're friends with pam shriver and we're friends with mary carillo like friends with two hall of famers now and massive massive shout out to both of them for making this day so special. We had a lovely seafood lunch with Pam and she showed us into the Hall of Fame and helped get us into the museum as well as Steve Flink, shout out to him as well, who also helped us.

6:55And the museum is somewhere I've always wanted to go and we got to see a little bit of it today. It's made me desperate to want to go back as well and see more of it. And then the actual ceremony, the induction ceremony mary carillo followed by roger federer i mean you know like so special to have them as a duo when i when i think of tennis and the constant that it's been in my life and the person i've most like watching play tennis is roger federer and the person i've most like hearing talk about tennis and get enthusiastic about tennis and hold tennis to account is Mary Carillo and those two people are going into the Hall of Fame in the same year it was so perfect and yeah it's going to take me a very very very long time to to process it I think and you know I really appreciated how special it was but it's gonna it's gonna be something I remember for a very very long time yeah for the majority of it you were in tears yes I was thinking while I was brushing my teeth just now I was trying to remember the last time I would have not necessarily cried as that much in public because I definitely think that's happened a fair few times but cried that much in public in front of strangers and I think it might have been when I saw Titanic at the cinema.

8:34That's going back a bit. Yeah. Or, to be clear, one of the three times I saw Titanic at the cinema. OK. Do you remember which time was the most teary? I think probably, well, I think, Matt, probably there's not much to choose between them. I cried a lot each and every time. I do remember the second time I saw it, I was crying in the opening credits because I knew it was coming. You knew it was coming. Yeah. So it came sooner, the second and probably the third time. And that was the problem here because I went very early with crying. I think I went in a montage, in an opening VT. And that was unfortunately a Rubicon crossed for me.

9:22And it was, yeah, very overwhelming. I mean, as an experience, I think I probably, because of how well done it was and how deftly they communicated the meaning of the Hall of Fame, I really feel like I got it tonight completely. And it's hard not to just walking, just walking in. I've seen pictures. I remember a few years ago when I was presenting the US Open for Amazon, the Hall of Fame is Greg Ruzedski won the title there when there was an ATP event there three times. And he really pushed to go to take some cameras to the Hall of Fame and produce a VT from there. And he did, you know, I saw this VT so many times that I threw to it in every rain delay.

10:16Greg giving us a tour of the Hall of Fame. And I always thought, yeah, that looks lovely. But like I was, I never thought, gosh, that looks like a place that would move me. And I felt, I felt it immediately walking in. I mean, it is absolutely beautiful. It is really beautiful.

10:37but I yeah so I understood immediately the the weight of the occasion and what it all means but and of course I found I found Roger Federer's induction very very moving and I thought Mirka Federer introducing him was was perfect despite the days and weeks of speculation about what a list glamorous unexpected name it might be that would be the person to introduce him actually I do think Mirka was the perfect choice but it but it was for me Mary that made it one of the best days of my life quite frankly she is such a special important person to me and for me that I can't really believe I got to see that this evening the speech she gave was a perfect combination of her humour and her ability to tell stories and yeah her her her there's a love letter to the sport of tennis that she's always been in love with since she first picked up a racket um uh she was joking to to sort of collect clams and crabs at the the beach um you know it was it was beautifully pitched all of it she had everybody in the palm of her hand it felt like she was talking to you directly but but it it did move you immensely didn't it?

12:20What was it about it that moved you so much? David, I've been clear, I'm still processing my emotion. I'm not sure I can, I'm not sure I can quite put it into words yet. But I do feel a very strong sense that I, not that I wouldn't be here without Mary Carrillo, because in all honesty, when I was beginning my career, I didn't know, didn't really know about Mary Carrillo you know we we weren't exposed to her in the UK at all it wasn't until I was established working in tennis that I really became became familiar with her work but I don't think I would be the type of broadcaster that I am or even close to it without Mary without the example and the pretty singular example of somebody that well to to quote mary say what you mean and mean what you say and stand for something even when it's even when it costs you you know there's a lot of people out there that stand for something but only until it costs them something um and again i'm just gonna quote mary in her speech because she said it all but talks about the sport she loves with clear eyes and being prepared to hold it to account again even when it costs you something um i don't think there's anybody else doing it like her there's certainly there's certainly no women that have ever done it like her I mean Trailblazer feels so tired and and trite so yeah I might I might be here doing something in tennis broadcasting without Mary Carrillo but I wouldn't be doing anything like this and I wouldn't have been able to find some of the things in myself that I'm most proud of I I suppose, without her.

14:29Yeah, she's an empowering presence and force, I think, within the sport. And also the fact that she was at the absolute top throughout her career as a woman in the men's game, which just was unheard of, really. The fact that she did that herself. Well, there's still not enough of it happening, but she actually kind of made it possible i think for other people because she showed everybody how absurd it is that you that you wouldn't be able to do that wouldn't have been out of that situation by doing it and being the best yeah and to me there's something so powerful about the contributor category at the hall of fame which they have which is for people who aren't players because obviously like it's it's it's amazing the achievements that the players have and we all look up to them and they make up the vast majority of the people in the hall of fame but something mary talked about in her speech was how she had to kind of find a different path within the sport once she realized that she couldn't play it for that long because of her injuries and her knees and her dream originally was to was to play it you know she talked about how she just wanted to witness Wimbledon and be there and walk through the doors and and she got that you know she got out of her playing career I think kind of what she did want to what she did dream of but it wasn't a long career and yet she stayed in tennis and she knew that the sport was kind of her place and that she could give so much to it and it could give so much to her and i just find that so powerful you know as as people who are all carving out a life in this in this sport that but it isn't through playing it i think mary just paves the way in that sense as well like the care that she has for this sport and the love for it and the love that people within the sport therefore have for her as well.

16:44I just, I find very, very impactful. Yeah, and as much as I think it's tremendously meaningful for Roger Federer and all the players to be inducted, he's got roles of honour all over the world with his name and achievements on. Okay, you know, Mary's got the 77 mixed doubles title with John McEnroe and she's, you know, we saw one of her Emmy Awards and her Peabody in the museum today. And, you know, I know she's not short of accolades, but it's not the same. You know, this is so significant for somebody like Mary, just as it was for Steve Link, who you spoke to today, David, and Richard Evans, who we got the chance to chat to tonight.

17:36And there's something about the contributor category. you were but I remember my dad always used to get really grumpy about um knighthoods and damehoods it's like he would say well you're getting it because you've already got all the achievements why do you need why do you need the thing that says well you've you've got all those achievements and like I do see some logic in that but like not that Mary doesn't have achievements but it's not the same is it she doesn't have those roles of honour that will stand forever and be studied and viewed in museums and poured over by by historians it's easier for somebody like Mary Carrillo to get lost or more lost than than Roger Federer yeah exactly and now we'll always have as well her speech like that will be there for people to watch and learn from and see in front of them the brilliance of mary carillo i mean once she got up on that stage she just again to use a mary carillo word own the joint you know like you you saw her come to life and she was performing the speech in the most brilliant way.

19:00She wrote a poem. She wrote a poem about tennis rivalries that have sustained her and that she's enjoyed watching and it was so funny. There were so many laughs during her speech and, oh, it was incredible. And not to sort of constantly bring it back to us in our experience, but she had that brilliant turn of phrase about how when sort of thinking about top tennis players and other Hall of Fame inductees that were inducted for their on-court achievement, she said, well, all of their greatest moments were mine too. Yeah. Because I got to tell the stories and I got to talk about them And, you know, that's our, that's us, isn't it?

19:53You know, we feel that, we feel that too. It was a heck of a mic drop moment when Mirka stood up tonight, I thought. Because, honestly, I thought Rafael Nadal was going to walk out. And when he didn't, and it was Mirka initially, I thought, oh, well, that's going to be a bit weird. and I mean I really misread that. Me too. I thought that that was going to be underwhelming if I'm completely candid with you and I totally sold her short there. That's interesting because had you told me that a couple of hours before, like before I'd walked through the doors at the Hall of Fame and experienced any of the ceremony and you'd told me it was going to be Merkur, I'd have gone, well, that sounds crap.

20:49But by that point in the ceremony, I was so bought in and felt so trustful that like whatever's happening here is going to be. I just felt like they're not going to let something underwhelming happen. Yeah. But I mean, ultimately, it's up to her to bring it to life, isn't it? Absolutely. And as she said in it, I mean, really, she's only ever spoken publicly as in front of a tennis audience once. This is the first time since 2002, she said, because she doesn't do interviews and those sort of things. Now, I've heard her speak a number of times because I've spoken to her in various dealings I've had with her over the years.

21:38But that's the first time I've ever heard her speak publicly as well. And I just thought it was the most brilliant speech. It was so well-timed and she wrote it, she'd written it, but she delivered it with real humour and sort of kind of timing almost, you know, and she knew what it was doing to Roger, who was pretty emotional listening to it. But she just nailed it. I just thought it was really smart and, yeah, quite funny. And I thought actually that was kind of – it sort of upstaged him in a way. I mean, his was notable because he was so emotional. I mean, he just kept having to stop every few minutes.

22:25He had a couple of moments where he sort of went downhill and managed to kind of start flowing in the way that his game used to flow. but then he would get stuttery again. He would really be struggling to get through it. I mean, which is lovely and endearing and it always has been with Roger Federer that he gets emotional and doesn't mind it, accepts it and doesn't hide away from it. But crikey, I thought she was really cool. Who cried more, Catherine or Roger Federer? The big Hall of Fame question. This is so embarrassing. I cried more than Mary's family. No, but I agree with you, David. I felt like Billie Jean King was the perfect person to introduce Mary Carrillo as she did because of what we've just said about how there would have been a lot of people at this ceremony today who might not necessarily have fully known Mary Carrillo's career and reason why she was being inducted into the Tennis Hall of Fame.

23:27There's a lot of people there, largely Roger Federer fans. They put on a whole extra viewing party just adjacent to the main ceremony where thousands of people come in to watch the event on a screen. And that's the Roger Federer effect. So I felt like Billie Jean King in her speech did such a great job of summing up why Mary is so important and such a deserving person to be in the Hall of Fame. But you don't need to do that with Rocha Federer. You don't need to explain to anyone why Rocha Federer is going into the Tennis Hall of Fame. It's the most obvious thing in the world. And in that sense, Mirka was a great person to have do the speech because she barely talked about tennis and his career in terms of his achievements because we know all of that.

24:23She just provided this lovely insight into the man. And yes, the man that was a tennis player, but also has put his family first. And it was lovely. And I feel like you've got two people there who, you know, Federer couldn't have done what he did without the support of Mirka and Mary would not be Mary Carrillo without Billie Jean King. And it was kind of the two people that they couldn't do it without. And yet they both provided, I think, exactly what the ceremony needed to set up the two speeches from Mary and Roger themselves. Yeah, it was really special. And the air of mystery around Mirka as well added to it because we just, as David said, most of us just haven't ever heard Mirka speak before so it was like wow what's this going to be like and as soon as it started it was it was great it's really well put the um the moment that got katherine crying oh for goodness sake but which also got i think everybody else in the place crying was when merker paid tribute to roger's parents i just pulled myself together and they they were shown on the screen and you know she she she provided such lovely context to how roger's mother lynette had had been he used to run their accreditation system in the basel tournament and i i knew that because i went to the basel tournament in 1998 when roger federer made his debut there and sure enough she was there she gave me my accreditation badge she's lovely it's just such a lovely person and you know just clearly such normal people really, just down to earth, normal people who just happened to have this wizard of a son with a tennis racket and they clearly couldn't be more proud.

26:26I quite like the way Roger called Robert Federer the real RF. Yes. That was good. Yeah, that was his, I mean I found, he did a brilliant speech, Roger Federer, it was wonderful and seeing him be so emotional and... Flustered as well at the start. He really struggled to get going. He struggled to get the first words out. It was very powerful seeing him be so emotional and own that, you know, seeing one of the greatest male athletes of all time like that and having that visual, which I'm sure will go everywhere. It's a very powerful thing, I think, but I found the most powerful thing seeing this man that is known for his poise, this man who we've spent years watching do something so, watching a man, a human being more in their element than any human being has ever been, you know, just knowing that you're watching someone do the one thing that they should be doing on this earth.

27:39that's the state in which we're used to seeing Roger Federer so to see him flustered and ill at ease in any way and ill at ease is probably a stretch but he was very clearly extremely nervous and you know I think that's a compliment to the whole experience and the honour of being inducted but I found that a very interesting experience seeing Roger Federer in that state. Yeah, it's kind of disarming. Yeah, very. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it was. And there's certain triggers, I think, that got to him. You know, I've always been struck by whenever Federer talks about Peter Carter, just how emotional he gets.

28:26You know, I think, you know, Peter Carter, one of his early coaches and when he passed away, I think that was a real wake up call for Federer in his career to to realise that he actually needed to start working harder and better. And I think he still carries it with him that maybe Peter Carter didn't see the version of Roger Federer that he then became. You know, Peter believed in him and believed in his talent and saw some of it, but never, never got to see the true heights of it. And it was kind of at that moment in the speech where I think he first got a bit tearful Federer. And then from that point on, there were lots of moments.

29:07and yeah he he but he handled the emotion so well and was funny with it and um you know he said oh god now the murka section's coming up because he knew he was going to get tearful through that bit as well and yeah the the whole thing like even the way the light just dropped through the evening it was like the 2008 wimbledon final you know by the end the lighting on on on fedora gave it this sort of cinematic effect and yeah very special anything further to add about about this evening no i've enjoyed this road trip and now we better start a grand slam tournament folks what are we doing uh the the the said grand slam tournament will be starting in just over 11 hours from now.

29:57And it's a what, four hour trip back? Yeah. Okay, so that's seven hours. We've got to have some sleep. Yep. We haven't finished this podcast yet. We haven't finished this podcast yet. It's not up yet. That's it for part one. Newsletter's not done. Oh my God. That's it for part one. We will be back in part two to talk about the players that came to press today, including Novak Djokovic. Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. I mentioned Novak Djokovic, one of the players that came to press today. He actually didn't have a whole lot to say, really. I mean, he got asked about his documentary.

30:42Wolf in Wintery got asked about playing his 20th US Open and that career milestone. All nice stuff, all sort of interesting stuff. And in terms of sort of previewing the tournament, I don't think we learned a huge amount from Novak Djokovic. He did talk about or certainly mention how much of a meal he's made of early rounds of slams in recent years and kind of tipped us off to expect it to be the same. Well, he was kind of saying, I hope it won't be. I hope I can navigate that a bit more smoothly. But it didn't sound wholly convincing that he thought he would be able to. So hold on to your hats for Djokovic against Navone tomorrow.

31:26Who else did we have impressed today, David? Artifis? Yeah, and he is an interesting story at this US Open because he's just won Cincinnati. He's been drawn in the section that could end up putting him up against Ben Shelton in the last 16. But, you know, if he's going to get that far, he's first of all got to get past Stefano Sitsipas in the first round. so he's quite an interesting character beyond he's quite an interesting character just beyond sort of my interest in him uh at this tournament maybe if maybe for one of the first times really because whenever he's got a run of form going in the past he's he's ended up getting injured not being able to play the grand slams he's played hardly any of them um but yeah in this in this press conference he was asked about his what he was most pleased with with Cincinnati and the title there and he said mainly the serve I said he said I felt my serve was really functioning well it was causing trouble to the opponents he said kind of the rest of my game was almost medium he said he said I don't quite know how to say it but but it but it was he was talking about high floor stuff really that he was he was able to provide a good solid level without playing spectacularly well and still win the title.

32:50So that was quite an interesting element. And just on Shelton, he was asked about his sort of friendship with Shelton because they've been pals really for three or four years now. He said, we're just really similar. We've got similar energy. And he said, you know, he's beyond a colleague to me. He said, he's somebody I could go on holiday with. And they could be playing against each other in the fourth round. so that really would be something if they ended up doing so. Please tell me he said pals. No, he didn't. That's just my, you know, I like the word pals. I do too and I'd love to hear Artifee say it but alas, maybe one day.

33:29Who was? I was going to say the Taylor Towns and Naomi Osaka of the ATP tour going on holiday together. Yeah, who actually have multiple times, I think, been on holiday together. They have, didn't they? They have. They don't do. Well, I don't know that. somewhere I think tropical looking somewhere beachy cool get yourself an Instagram David it's all happening there Stan Warrinka came to press today, what rollercoaster of a week he's had yeah he's done more travel than we have he's been back to Switzerland and was in the Swiss mountains when he found out he had a wild card. He'd been in New York, I think was expecting a wild card, certainly hoping for one, obviously didn't get it.

34:24Outrage, off he goes back to Switzerland and then he gets one and he comes back to the tournament. So, you know, hardly ideal preparation. Does make his initial magnanimous statement after not receiving a wild card, all the more impressive, given that he had unnecessarily travelled to New York and was presumably typing that out from the flight back to Switzerland. I would have been so pissed off. Well, I think he probably was as well, but he was trying to be the bigger man. Well, I'm very impressed, very impressed with that. We had, who else did we have? Igor Shontek, impressed today. Again, I don't think one where we learnt a huge amount other than she seems to be in a good place.

35:10She did reference post-Wimbledon having been a real reset for her. She said she finally got a training block with Francisco Roach. She actually talked about the year generally as having been pretty much her hardest year. But obviously she's had this tremendous uptick recently. And, yeah, I think she's somebody that needs that stability, I think. doesn't it makes sense to me that having a training block and a reset and a chance to settle settle in away from away from the hamster wheel of the tour with with a new with a new coaching setup would would serve her particularly well yeah and she's such an interesting person i think at this tournament, I would say for someone of her standing in the game and her quality of play, I think she's kind of underperformed at the hard court majors in her career.

36:13You know, like she's won so many titles on the tour on hard courts and she obviously has won the US Open, which is fantastic, but she's not even had like that many other near misses. She had quite a lot of sort of, early second week or second week exits at hardcourt majors and i just think that her career kind of deserves better than that and it does seem like this one is well set up for her i think she's talked in the past about you know it's it doesn't come naturally to her i don't think new york and everything that goes with it she does seem to be embracing it quite well at the moment she's been to two broadway shows she she said in her press conference think she's been having a good time but it's not easy for her but she's coming into this one in a very different place to the last couple i've thought at past us opens she's been pretty burnt out by this stage of the season one of one of those years is obviously post olympics and i think that all kind of caught up with her at the US Open in 2024.

37:23And then last year was coming off the Wimbledon title. And I think going into the US Open last year, I thought she was in a great place. She'd won Wimbledon, she'd won Cincinnati. But by the end of it, I think you could kind of tell that she was running on fumes and she didn't play very well. Okay, she won a title in Seoul, I think, but she didn't play very well at the back end of last season. This time, she's had that training block. She's worked on her game. she's played two really good tournaments in the lead up it feels like a chance for Iguja Stjantek to put together a deep run at a hardcourt major again that I think her career deserves so she's one of the players I'm most interested in actually over the next two weeks to kind of see how it goes Anamanda Onisimova, she was impressed today sounds in a good place she's been hanging out in Central Park with Priscilla Holm?

38:22I think so. I can only assume, Matt. Presumably, splitting her time between Mukhaver and Isomova and anyone else on the WGA tour who just wants to hang out. She's seen the memes. Yeah, she was asked about the memes. She gave a great answer. A picture of what that means? What sort of memes? The expressions that she pulls in matches. You know, she's a very expressive person and she plays a lot of very dramatic matches and those two things come together to create lots of amusing for people on the internet, facial expressions, and it gets clipped up and, you know, she's a kind of, yeah, she becomes a bit of a meme.

39:07I feel you, Amanda. But she talked about how she used to find that hard to deal with and she didn't like seeing that side of her when she was a teenager coming through and realising that she was like that on court. But she's kind of learnt to embrace it and find it funny along with everyone else. Good for you, Amanda. Lena Rabachner was in today talking about the ankle foot injury, saying it's better than it was. There was quite a lot of mixed messaging in there. Yeah, and by better than it was, it means all how it was was she was unable to walk on it at all so i mean it needs to be a heck of a lot better than it was for her to be even remotely competitive at this tournament i mean it sounds improbable to me that she would be competitive pretty fanciful um the uh she said it's pretty amazing that I'm here at all, that I'm able to do what I'm doing right now.

40:13I'm walking about, running about, hitting tennis balls, but I'm in the state she was in a week ago. Between her injury and Anissa Mova's acceptance of memes, I sort of think of Catherine today walking on the stony gravel outside barefoot and me videoing it. And then Catherine still posting it on the Instagram, which I thought was most marvellous. It's just undeniably good content, isn't it? You thought... The pod comes first, the pod comes first before my dignity. It's been established many a time. You'd been paddling, hadn't you? Yeah, I went for a little... I can't resist open water when it's there to be sampled.

41:03So I went for a little paddle. but then I hadn't thought through the logistics of the fact that I was wearing trainers and socks and, you know, sand sticking to feet. There was no, you know, it was quite a rustic beach. There was no tap or shower or anything. There was no rinsing available so I had to raw dog it back to the house and that had gone fine. I think I'd done that pretty elegantly until we arrived at the gravel driveway and I thought, oh, God, I've come this far. It's only 20 feet. No big deal. But someone's always got a phone out, haven't they? Yeah, these bloody phones. Well, Catherine, I'm very sort of envious and inspired by that, like spontaneity to just go in the open water because I'm always thinking about the logistics.