Washington - Electric Eala breaks new ground

0:11Well, hello and welcome to the Tennis Podcast again. We are back again, this time to talk about Washington, which has finally reached its conclusion after an absolutely miserable day of weather on Sunday, the scheduled day for the two weeks. singles finals, the women's between Alexandre Ayala and Jessica Pegula and the men's between Taylor Fritz and Raphael Hodder. They came back on Monday. They had apparently the best atmosphere there's ever been for a Monday final. David was a very big person and managed not to provocatively text Goran Ivanovic that quote. So far. The day is long yet. and I think I might just you know I mean look it was an amazing atmosphere but some short memories there yeah look it was it was fantastic it wasn't it wasn't full I don't think I don't think anybody was expecting it necessarily to be to be full but there were some tickets available on the gate and it did seem like a a good proportion of those went to the local Filipino population and I don't think any of them would have regretted their choices because they got to see 21-year-old Alex Ayala from the Philippines win her maiden WTA singles title with a comeback victory over the top seed Jessica Bagula 4-6, 6-4, 6-love, a match that was delayed overnight with Ayala trailing by a set to love and the victory over the top seed in the final makes it just the most extraordinary run to any title, quite frankly, let alone a maiden singles title.

1:58So she beat Zhang Chin Wen in her opening match, dropped the opening set of that match, did Eala, then didn't lose another set en route to the final against Pagula. She beat Leila Fernandes, the defending champion. She beat Alina Svitolina and she beat Naomi Osaka, meaning she beat the top two seeds, the defending champion, a four-time major winner and the reigning Olympic gold medalist to win, I'll say it again, her first WTA singles title. Talk about ticking off the milestones, Mats. It's safe to say Alex Eala is very much here. And by here, I mean at the top of the sport now she is she is a top 20 player as of right now she is and as you say she keeps bamboozling the very very top players we've seen her beat Rabatkinner and Svantec and this run that she just had this week as well adds to that and she's got a win over Goff as well this year I know it by retirement but it's it's it's still there um and i think it's easy to underestimate her as a as a player i think you can look at her serve quite frankly and think well surely the top players should be doing better against that shot but at the moment they're not and one after another her game her lefty game her unusual game is causing players so many problems add to that i think she has an absolutely elite level return of serve the way she has been just destroying players serves this this week particularly asaka's has been incredibly notable her ground strokes hold up so well plus you get this incredible atmosphere and support at all of her matches which surely gives her this boost because she handles it so well that you put all of that together and it becomes incredibly difficult i think for these players to actually face her and you know it's such a joy like she's she's she's changing the way the sport sounds and looks and feels like for one player to have that effect on the entire sport is really really moving I find I think it must have been really hard for Jessica Bagula at home in a final a tournament she's won before and she comes back the next day and there's barely anyone in the stadium rooting for her I thought in the match she handled it really poorly and in the speech afterwards she handled it really well and said what an amazing thing it is to witness and be part of when Iala is bringing in those fans but yeah like the top of the sport there's a conundrum there that not many of them are solving right now, the awkwardness of Iala's game.

5:09And I think she's doing this thing of making them play poorly and raising her own game to heights that is kind of taking them aback. It's incredible to watch. This is the thing, David, isn't it? She's still so relatively new to this. And yet it feels to me, even before this title this week, which will only enhance this, but it feels to me like she's already got a bit of a locker room aura. You know, you can see players when they step up to the service line against her, they're thinking about what she can do on that return. There is a fear of the Ayala return. There's a fear of the sound that a tennis match is going to bring when she steps onto the court.

5:52And maybe we'll talk in a moment about whether there's any risk of kind of second season syndrome for Ayala and people getting used to all of that and maybe unlocking the codes a little bit. I don't know the answer to that. But right now, it feels to me like there's a wariness of Alex Ayala among the other players on tour. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think she knows it too and it empowers her. It was quite interesting watching the difference between the two days where you saw the downsides of Ayala's game where it just wasn't really taking off. And Pegula was playing really, really well in that first day.

6:36How would you summarise those downsides? I think she is an instinctive player. I think she has good strategy. She knows what she's out there to do. But I think when she starts to feel it, she becomes this force. And then you add that force internally to what's going on externally with the crowd. and down the other end you must feel as though you just don't really have a say in what's going on. I mean, players look quite rattled by it. Almost as though this isn't fair. Listen to this, you know, I'm not saying it's hindrance but it's because I think the crowds are very polite and they're in as much as they're cheering at the right time, they're not making noise through the rallies and stuff like that but it's just so one-sided it's it's pretty overwhelming when it gets going and then Iala seems to draw strength from it it's kind of this two-way relationship so and I think you actually make a very good point about what happens down the track if people who are going to be studying Iala where are the gaps where are the holes where can I what can I exploit that isn't happening yet i was thinking back to jasmine paulini's win over her at wimbledon and i thought i mean paulini played very well that day but i also thought iala just powered down i felt like she was gradually losing physical ability you know all the strapping i mean she said at the time it was preventative but she didn't look like she had quad as much in the tank certainly she did last night and and i think she might get better over the years but she might never be more dangerous than she is right now because she's new um and and it's to me it's a game that could take out anybody in the world it's sort of can she time it right because like if you win this tournament and then you go and do well in the next two maybe you've got nothing left when the US Open comes around it's one of those because I actually think that she's capable of having a heck of a run at the US Open if she gets going do you think that's how she needs to be thinking about it now as as the washington champion beaten those players that she has to win that title she needs to now be thinking in terms of the next few weeks is peaking at the us open and giving herself a chance to go deep and win that i don't think maybe go deep or win that see that would The question really is, should she preemptively pull out of one of Canada or Cincinnati?

9:23And I don't think she should unless she feels tired or pain. She should casper-rood it and make hay while the form sun is shining. It's too early in her career to be making choices like that, I think. But I could also see her doing well in those tournaments, all the emotion, get into New York and actually be hanging on a bit. I think we'll talk about Raphael Hodder later. I think he is going to hit the wall at some point, the way things are going. And that's the conundrum that everybody faces now with these two-week Masters. But just on Iala just generally, I think that's a lovely way of putting it from Matt.

10:01She's changing the sound of tennis. Gives me goosebumps thinking about it. She's one of the best bits of news that tennis has had in years, Alex Iala. hmm it's hard to overstate it actually isn't it it's she's she's such a big deal for the sport such such a game changer yeah and and throwing it ahead to the US Open one of my only sort of in-person experiences of Iala was last year at the US Open when she Towson in the first round in a final set tie break on grandstand and it was packed. I mean you could not get a seat. I had to go to the back. I was standing trying to get a glimpse of it but really you could get the experience from outside the stadium.

10:59You knew who was winning the points even when you were on a different court because it sounded different when Iala was winning it. So we know she's got that support in New York. And the thought of her playing some of these top names now, a year on from that with her game developed and having caused all the damage she's caused on the WTA Tour this year to those top players is really exciting to me. And I could see Canada being tough for her just because of the very quick turnaround now, especially with the delayed final in Washington she's going to have to play the next couple of days I think that's going to be tough could be a gift to go out earlier in Canada or she might continue riding this wave and momentum and keep it going but it might be a blessing in disguise if she plays Canada maybe doesn't quite have a great tournament and then picks it back up again and runs through Cincinnati and New York she's one of those players where every time she every time she goes to hit the ball I've well not perhaps not every single time but so often I'm surprised at where the ball ends up and those are some of my very favorite players I'm like oh she's done that with it and part of that is how early she's able to take the ball so there's just that element of oh god I wasn't I wasn't ready for this and suddenly you've hit this bending forehand that seems to defy physics and gravity to end up in a corner of the court that I didn't think it was plausible for you to put the ball but I just love that feeling of constantly being on the edge of my seat for what she's going to do with the tennis ball on both wings.

12:53And I'd love to see some stats on power and whether she has added power to her game as much as it looks like she has to me. It could be a trick of the eye. But to see her holding her own against so many of these power hitters that she's played this week, I found quite a formidable sight, actually. On the, as David was saying there, Matt, about, you know, people are going to be studying her now and looking for weaknesses to exploit. Of course, that's true. But I do feel like we already know, right? It is the serve and all the players know. The locker room knows that's the thing to target. And yet they're not having all that much success.

13:46what do you put that down to i'm really not sure i mean there was there was a clip wasn't there of pagula practicing before the final with her hitting partner who hit a serve and then pagula was like no slower i need i need to practice returning a slower serve and it comes across as shade right and maybe then when she loses it it can look amusing but actually i do think it's the right thing to do like I think they need to be practicing a slower ball I also think the leftiness element is very important you know like I've played lefties even at my level and they don't necessarily have a better serve than some of the right handers I've played but the angle is different it's not an angle you see all that often throw in the speed and suddenly they've just got something they're not used to and I think that is very hard for players on the fly and in a pressure situation to cope with.

14:44We saw it in a different shot, but we saw it when Tatiana Maria won Queen's. Just a series of great players, better players than Tatiana Maria, unable to cope with this one unorthodox shot. And I think Iala's got a bit of that going on right now. I think it's particularly... It's interesting how it seems to be really affecting the top players. It's almost like it's a bit of an ego thing. Like they want to just see this ball and hit this ball and crush this ball and assert their authority over Iala. But they can't do it at the moment and it's messing them up. But that, to your point, Catherine, maybe with time, this is something that some of those players will figure out a bit more.

15:31But it does, to me, that is your way into trying to beat Iala. And maybe that's part of it as well. They think if I don't take advantage of this second serve or even this quite slow first serve, suddenly I'm going to be in a rally and she's going to take the ball early. She's going to hit the ball up the line with ease. She's going to do something I'm not expecting, as you've been saying. And they're feeling a pressure on the return to really do something with the ball, even if actually they'd be better off not doing that and trying to play a bit more of a long game with her. but it's fascinating.

16:09Which Paolini did, by the way. Yes. She managed to sort of just absorb the game but I still don't know whether she'd have done that if Iala was at full strength. Yeah. I do think, I don't have the data to back this up but it makes sense to me that a good way to develop a resilient tennis player with great mental toughness and ability to focus would be for them to have a poor serve in the development stages. Because you can't clock out from it. There's no backstop there. There's no just racing through a service game with some aces. I mean, obviously, this is kind of more applicable in men's tennis than in women's.

16:58But it still works, I think. She just doesn't go away, ever. And she doesn't know when she's beaten. And by contrast, I thought there were real similarities between the demeanour of Osaka and Pagula on the court against her in the semis and finals. OK, Pagula was able to make more of a match of it, certainly on Sunday. But on the resumption on Monday, I thought it was quite a mentally poor effort from Pagula. actually I was quite taken aback by it and the same from Osaka in the semi-finals she just there wasn't a lot of resistance there it looked like to me I don't know whether that's harsh and I know as we've just been waxing lyrical about there is an awful lot of unique stuff to deal with when you're playing Alex Ayala but these are champion tennis players these are you know the the top seeds a full-time Grand Slam champion I was expect I was a bit shocked by what we ended up getting from them in the latter stages both of them yeah the the thing that they seemed to have in common apart from the demeanor was the the way they their timing seemed to just completely disappear and bear in mind Pegula was really good on Sunday she was comfortably the better player and I think if that had gone much longer she's probably going to win that in straight sets and I don't know what changed in from day to day whether the conditions might have just felt totally different I mean obviously the weather was very different overcast on Sunday even when it wasn't raining and then suddenly bright sunshine yesterday but when I was watching Osaka she kept that close to sort of 4-3 in the first set and then it just she's just looking at her coach where I can't time the ball.

18:54She's hitting forehands halfway up the net, way long, way wide. You know, just that lower angle shot that you get to see the trajectory of the ball. You're thinking, this doesn't even look like professional tennis that she's playing right now. And then Pagoula's lost a six-love set against Iala. When does that happen? You know, again, she looked bereft. She kept tapping the strings of a racket, checking the tension. She went to change the racket sort of mid-game and had a couple leaning against the chair and she just went and picked one of those up. She just looked bereft as to what was going wrong.

19:30And I do think, look, I think a lot of that is what Ayala does to you. She suddenly shocks you and your game that was working suddenly isn't working anymore. But also, I mean, maybe it's just coincidental that they both just had a really bad patch in similar times of the match. But it was terrible from them both. I do think Matt's ego point is perhaps a relevant one. Like they just try and, particularly Osaka, I thought was just, I'll just keep trying to hit through this. And like, that's not working. Maybe try and rein in the margins. Very easy for me to say, isn't it? But poor old Jessica Bagula.

20:10I mean, it is one of the cruelest things in sport, I think, that tennis makes its losers remain on court for the victors' trophy ceremony. This was a particularly long trophy ceremony. Bless him, Mark Eyne, the tournament director, who I think is one of tennis' good eggs. And he gave a lovely speech. He had a lot to say. He had a lot of people that he wanted to thank because, you know this, David, putting on a Monday final at the last minute, And this is not easy stuff. And it requires a lot of people that are already on their last legs in terms of exhaustion to put in a pretty big deal over time shift.

20:55And he wanted to thank all of them. And that's lovely. But my God, was that a long speech. It was about as long as the third set. When you've just lost a six-love set and it's, you know, I mean, I did feel for her. yeah I felt for her yeah I thought that was such a good speech Pergoula gave she had a long time to think about it she did to be fair and compose herself but like that's the thing there might be a kind of if there is any kind of ego thing in the moment in the match that was all gone in the speech Pergoula just totally took herself out of it and credited Iala and realised that she was a part of this pretty cool thing that was happening.

21:44OK, she was the victim of it in terms of she was like, it's really bloody hard to deal with in the moment, but it's a really good thing for tennis. She had that perspective that just because it's not good for me doesn't mean it's not good for the sport generally. And then she shouted out all the ground staff and people working. And she recognised the extra effort that had gone into putting on that Monday final. I thought it was a really classy speech in defeat from Pegula. How are you feeling, Matt, after that week from Pegula about your big Pegula prediction, TM? No, no, Hannah's with me. Is she?

22:26Yeah. But it is still yours. She's jumping on the bandwagon, but you're very much driving that thing, I would say. Catherine's not letting us talk. If I'm going down, I'm going down with Hannah. To be honest, it doesn't really change anything for me. Like, I think she went in, she said, she went into Washington with very low expectations. She'd been at, I think, two of the weddings that we talked about. I don't think she'd done an awful lot of training, by the sound of things. I think she was pretty pleased generally to get to the final. Was she at Tommy Paul's? Yes, and I think Asia Muhammad as well.

23:08Rough scene for any Americans that weren't invited to Tommy Paul's wedding. It does feel like that net was cast pretty wide. Yeah. Looked fun, though. The thing about Pagoola, and I'm not backing out of my prediction, to be clear, but I just want to provide a little bit more context. I thought and I think I made that prediction in early April I thought that one of the reasons she might be best placed to win the US Open is that I thought Sabalenka was going to tear it up over the clay and the grass this year for the first time and I thought she might be a bit of a weaker force as a result going into the US Open actually what's happened is the complete opposite and it feels suddenly like Sabalenka's got a real point to prove to try and get this year back on track because you know she was best player of the year okay without the major through the first few months of it but she's been by her standards pretty poor over the last few months I think I was expecting a bit of a burnt out Sabalenka coming into the US Open and I thought Pagula could be because she's so steady Pagula she's so good at managing her energy through a season now maybe it's possible that she can do it another way and win the US Open because Sabalenka is not not at her best and maybe that is still going to be helpful for someone like Pagula but I just think the picture of women's tennis is not it's not looking going into this US Open like I thought it would a few months ago if that makes sense yeah it does and look Sabalenka was in that a very similar situation last year wasn't she which was kind of like my god I'm the world number one there is no way I'm getting to the end of this season without a grand slam I better I better blooming win this one and she did um and and you know this this time around she's got the world number one position under potential threat which again I think she's a player that number one means a lot to I think that will sharpen the focus big time sorry what would you love to see Ayala Sabalenka in New York I don't think I don't think Sabalenka's scrambled eggs would enjoy that

25:43what do they do with Ayala's scheduling what would you do with Ayala's scheduling wise at the US Open because I would just love to see certainly early rounds her on grandstand again I certainly don't want her on a rinky-dink outdoor court where only David can watch her because he's six foot seven. But Grandstand would be... Grandstand... I love Grandstand as a court. It's one of my favourite courts in the world. And it's big. It's big enough to accommodate a lot of Eala support. and I feel like I want grounds pass holders to be able to taste it still you can do Armstrong as well they can do Armstrong but there's I don't know I personally don't have the same affection for Armstrong as I do for Grandstand but there is a case that you've just got to put her on one of the two biggest courts already isn't there I think Grandstand or Armstrong are perfect because they're big courts and they have a lot of grounds pass holders.

26:54Yeah. Great. Grandstand would be great, please. America. Once she plays a top seed or moves into second week, I think then the story's different. But I do feel like you can, there's enough space and there's so much vibe that you can afford to do that. Actually, thinking back now, You know, Clara Tasson did incredibly well to get it to that tie break in that atmosphere. And there could be some players that just can't handle it at all. Big time. Do you remember who she lost to in the second round? I didn't remember this, but I've just pulled it up. No. I'd be astonished if you get this. It would be incredible.

27:40Was it Priscilla Haunt? No. She randomly won some matches at last year's US Open. Matt seems to find that funnier than what it actually ended up being. Well, I know the answer is going to be someone that Matt finds funny. Well, it's Bookshire. See? You're right. Reggie there. Reggie was the only person supporting Bookshire. Yeah. Christina Bookshire. I have no memory of that match. She had her into the fourth round. Remember I interviewed her? Yes. I don't quite know why. I remember that. Not for the pod. That must have been for the BBC. no I think do you know what it was I think it was no I think it was sort of one of those little huddles and I just joined it I wasn't invited I just joined it and I just threw it I just started it off can I ask an English question please

28:34didn't she play Sabalenka I want to say that rings a bell yeah if that match doesn't stick in my mind it's probably because I imagine it was very brief. But I could be doing Christina Bookshire a tremendous disservice there. Okay, that's it for part one. Do join us in part two though where we will talk about the men's event in Washington. Welcome back to part two of today's tennis podcast. I reckon our listener and viewership for this part of the show is probably about 10 % of what the audience was for part one. We've probably lost quite a lot of the Philippines during that brief pause. But here we are talking about Taylor Fritz and his biggest title since 2022.

29:267-6-6-4 over Rafael Hodder in the final yesterday. I mean, repeatable Taylor Fritz analysis here, David, but he's a stubborn so-and-so, isn't he? He sure is. This is not the biggest tournament that he's going to play this year, even this summer. He's now going to go on to a couple of 1 ,000s and then a grand slam, but he put his life and soul into this tournament only a few weeks, a couple of weeks, after finishing against Verev, looking in real pain and real trouble. and here he is in Washington playing guys like Alex Mickelson who's a really good player and who's beaten him a couple of times in a row now and he edges him 7-6 in the third and then he goes into the final and he's playing a young guy in Rafael Hodder who's hitting the Living Day Lights out of the ball and he's just scrapping for everything Fritz and I actually thought he, for the most part in this match he was excellent he really found some aggression at the important moments to kind of break the back of the match, to win the first set, to get up, break the serve.

30:39And then in the second set, late on, I thought you could see nervousness come into his game, which ended up making him conservative. And he starts overly spinning the ball and looping it in and asking for it to be hit. But I'm pleased to see him just playing well again and winning. because like you said, that's quite a stat really that it's so long that it's been since he won a title of this size and yeah, good on him. I would have thought he'd won more than 11 titles when they said that at the end, given how regular he is at the end of tournaments but yeah, it felt like a big one the way he collapsed to the ground.

31:22I don't understand this knee injury, David. I'm not sure that Taylor Fritz understands this knee injury. This is a chronic thing that he's managing. So I know it's always going to be there to some extent, but I don't understand how he's gone from the situation he was in at Wimbledon to a seemingly pretty pain-free and OK situation in Washington. He did have the physio out once, didn't he, in one of his early rounds. But it was night and day compared to what we saw against Verev at Wimbledon when I felt quite gloomy about that knee, quite frankly. Well, you know, I felt similarly. I was really curious.

32:08I don't understand this injury. So I went back and I read his transcript from the defeat against Verev before yesterday's final. And I read his opening transcripts from the sort of preview of this tournament. to see what have you been doing in between to get back on course and winning this title given how you looked that day and he went into some detail my goodness does does he know what chapter and verse about his knee and he's absolutely emphatic about why he's doing what he's doing and what's what's happening along the way and he explains it as as in december there having been a hole in his knee where the tendon should have been which was causing the tendonitis the pain that he receives and he says the reason he says you can't just rest it because if you do the tendon won't grow back and he says you have to do the rehab even if the rehab is hurting and causing pain and it seems you know like should i should i be still doing this you have to do that because that's what makes it grow back and eventually the idea is that after a couple of years they think that it will be sufficiently grown that you won't feel pain and tendonitis anymore um so what happened at Wimbledon that's the big question mark because he'd been playing all tournament long without any issues and he said he was absolutely taken aback by what happened to him three games into that match he said he did feel a little bit of pain towards the end of his previous match and he was a little worried but he said I practiced okay then I came out and he said three games in I was hurting and I was I was and he said it made me panic he said also look that is the best that Alexander Zverev has ever played against me he said he hit his forehand so aggressively said I don't I don't know whether I could have kept up with that even fully fit but it made me panic because I didn't understand why this was happening I thought I understood my and exactly what was going to happen when and he said we did another scan after that um and and it still showed that it was going in the right direction in terms of the this growth of regrowth of the tendon that he needs to fill this hole that he'd had in december um but he said sometimes you're going to get this and you don't exactly know when it's going to come um but so you've got to push your way through some of the pain and keep doing the rehab he said i i'm i know that i'm that I'm able to play with this, but sometimes I'm going to have a bad day with it.

34:47So really, really fascinating. He said that the medical timeout he had earlier in the tournament was a specific jarring movement that he had mid-rally, which kind of freaked him out. And three games later, that had gone. So he was fine. It was a non-issue. But yeah, that's why he's doing what he's doing. I mean, I think it flared up too much in the spring, which is why he took that time off. But generally speaking, that's his explanation. And he said, I've got so many scans. I mean, he sounded like he wanted to sort of hang them all up for us to have a look at. And he said, you can see the development and how it's going in the right direction all the time.

35:28He said, every scan looks better than the previous one. But I keep having to have them because I still keep getting some pain and you have to just check. But that's what he explains to us. He's an incredibly open book, isn't he? I mean, he's a real gift in terms of kind of analysing his own game and his own state and being prepared to tell us about it. It's reassuring that I sort of think of injuries like that as being very deteriorative. You know, like, OK, if he's experiencing pain in one match, it's either going to be the same or worse in the next match. There's no way he's going to miraculously be OK the next match without rest.

36:21But it sounds like it isn't linear like that at all, which, you know, for someone as stubborn as Taylor Fritz means, I guess, in theory, he can just push through individual matches and then hope to be OK for the next one. Matt I was pretty shocked with the stat of this being his biggest title since 2022 how much better a player do you think he is than than 2022 like is he the best version of himself he's ever been right now for you no I wouldn't say right now because of everything that he's got going on in the background there. I think that has, as much as he says he can play with it and he is doing a bloody good job of playing with it, I do think it has taken something from him and made him a little bit more vulnerable.

37:21But I think somewhere along the way, since 2022 to now, we've seen the best Taylor Fritz. Probably 2024, right? When he reached the US Open final. And that's the thing. He's made so many strides in that time. He's been a pretty consistent American number one and reached the Grandstand final and reached the ATP finals final. He's done a lot of things. He just hadn't been picking up titles at this kind of level before. He'd won quite a lot of 250s in that time. But he'd lost four finals in a row before this one. And to David's point, I definitely think he got pretty nervous and tight at the end of this one.

38:01And it would have been fascinating if Hodder had managed to get the second break back right at the end as Fritz was trying to serve it out. But I think even if his game isn't quite peaking or his physicality isn't quite peaking at the moment, I do think his sort of mental toughness and fortitude is as strong as it's ever been. I don't really doubt him on that level. Whereas I doubt quite a lot of the other players on that level, even if I think they're better players than Taylor Fritz. I don't necessarily back them to always be there and always show up and deliver in most of the big moments. Whereas I do with Fritz, I just think there are some limitations compared to the very, very best in the world.

38:54But pretty much everyone's got that. And I think Fritz would be a good blueprint for Hodder, actually. You know, like there's some similarities there in terms of their games. I think Hodder should be looking at Fritz and thinking, I need to get my serve to something close to what Fritz's is like. Because that serve is so good. It's so underrated. He maxes out on that serve. Yes. So much. He backs it up well with his first shot after the serve. And I think for someone like Hodder, who's got a lot of weapons, actually, and a lot of power, actually packaging it so it is a powerful, offensive game would do him quite a lot of good, I think, going forward.

39:39Don't you think Hodder will be or should be targeting being a slightly more explosive player than Fritz? Yes, perhaps. But that's kind of what I mean. I think Fritz has got a way to win, though, in terms of big serve, big shot after the serve. and then if that doesn't work he's also very happy trading and maneuvering and getting into rallies and outlasting he's got both sides of his game i i don't quite know what hodd are is at the moment i think he's got a he's doing incredibly well he's winning he's winning so many matches at such a young age it's impressive but he's not quite the explosive player that I first saw he hasn't hasn't really been able to to carry that on and that's that's interesting to me because I do think that that would make him more dangerous but then he is having the results so I don't know really yeah I feel the same I watch him and I'm like obviously this is really good here he is in a final he's he's 15th in the live rankings he's 11th in the race it is there is legitimate talk about him reaching Turin this is a guy that most people had never heard of a year year ago that barely had a barely had a ranking like this is this is a pretty bonkers trajectory even though So with talented players, you do quite often get these very headline-grabbing stats about their gains in the first year on tour.

41:20Even by those standards, this is an unbelievably steep rise. And yet I've watched him latterly. whereas when he played that match against Fonseca in Madrid and I know conditions in Madrid are quite specific but at that point in his career I was like oh wow I get this like he has got something here both in his game in the way he's harnessing the crowd in his whole vibe on the court now when I watch him I'm like okay this is good but I don't quite get what is so uniquely good and exciting about him. And maybe that bodes well, David, in terms of longevity and this being sustainable, this place that he's carving out for himself in the sport, pretty near the top of it.

42:14Maybe that does bode well in terms of it being sustainable. But I don't know, to my eye, I am a bit like, OK, this is good. Show me more. yeah listen part of it may be that people are getting more used to him there's more there's more footage to go on so that you can play against him and and slightly blunt his weapons um the the the higher you go the better the player you play you're not going to make it look as good against a taylor fritz say as you might against somebody who's nowhere near as good as taylor you know they're just better players but when I first saw him play in the spring you know there were those couple of tournaments he reached the final in Barcelona lost a feast and he reached he went deep in Madrid it felt like every shot had pretty concussive power even just off rally trade balls it was it was quite shocking how just a normal rally ball seemed to hurt people I feel like some of that has been lost and a part of that may be surface specific it might be at its most dangerous on clay with it with the ball bounce and the just the general speed of that of that surface and his comfort on it but I also think maybe he's maybe he's not playing quite as well as he was then I mean and I know that's harsh when you consider he just reached the final so that's a bit counterintuitive what I've said it's a bit contradictory but I think also I think he's going to hit the wall I said a little earlier I you know the whole Turin thing I certainly wouldn't if I were him be looking to put any pressure on myself to qualify for that whatsoever because I suspect he's going to have a bit of an Andreva from last year and hit the wall at some point here because this is this is a lot for somebody who's not done it before he's doing incredibly well but even at the French Open I mean he managed to get to the quarter finals I didn't think he was going to win two or three of the matches that he won along the way he's a good grinder he'll go two sets to one down in a five setter or lose the first set and you think oh he's gone and then he'll find a way back so he's got a great attitude great mental approach to the sport but it's not as spectacular as it was in the spring and I wonder whether that's a slight lack of freshness maybe he's not playing quite so well maybe it's surface maybe it's opponent I don't know maybe my maybe my eye is adjusted to it I'm used to watching him now or something I'm not sure but it's not it's not quite what it was in terms of like whoa yeah but but I suppose what we did also say in the spring was like we were I was really worried about his legs going into the French Open you know we saw him play a lot of matches where he came out hot and then just faded actually yeah I didn't think he physically had it in him to be a grinder yeah so I think he's made I guess he's proven he's made strides and then this week he came from a set down to beat Mazzetti and he came from a set down to beat Tabilo he he showed those qualities that he showed at the French Open as well and in terms of that that fight in those matches and we know he you know he we've seen him be explosive so he he does have these sides to him perhaps it's just a a natural process of figuring it out when he's when he's that young and that new and a bit of fatigue has set in but yeah it is it's i'm finding the whole experience weird it was like it it took me aback when he arrived on the scene i was like who is this guy then i thought okay he's this really explosive player got it and now he's not really been that but he's kept the results going it I found it a very confusing same year yeah you've put that really well I I'm very bamboozled but every time I adjust to like okay in the the new reality of Hodah he sort of shape shifts on me a bit and I don't know how to feel yeah and maybe that's going to be a great quality that he has it's just hard to grasp at the moment got a lot of support in washington didn't he i think because of the university of virginia connection if i got that i'm probably going to get a text from matt futterman saying saying i've mislabeled the university again but i think he i think he went to uni in virginia and uh yeah he got a lot of support should just say i don't i don't want to don't know this is his first go around the go around on on the atp tour really and we know he doesn't or certainly up until fairly recently he didn't didn't have an agent he just had his dad and family friends working for him and i'm loathe to sort of advocate for the role of agents because they're mostly, well, I won't finish that sentence, but he had agreed.

47:22He had signed up to play Los Cabos this week, Hodar, and then when he had his breakout earlier in the year, Washington presumably made him a better offer, and then he backed out of Los Cabos having they had already announced him in their player field and he took the shinier offer to play Washington which is a forgivable misstep I think in your first year on tour with not with inexperienced advisors but I do think that is a misstep you know Los Cabos I think has the same tournament director as Acapulco and they had given him a wild card earlier in in the year you know these are reneging on agreements certainly irritating important people in tennis it's just you don't want to be doing too much of that I don't think and yeah maybe he does maybe he does have a proper agent working with him now and I can't believe I'm I'm celebrating that a few months ago I was like oh so lovely he's only got his dad in the box and now I'm like get some IMG bods in there but um but you know if there's anything they they are important for I guess it's advising in that kind of situation and like that's not really the done thing let's let's just stick to our agreement for for this year and you know we can make hay from from this point onwards um other other things stories players to pick out from the week in Washington You mentioned Mazzetti, one of Hodder's victims, returning Lorenzo Mazzetti.

49:05What's your level of buoyancy, Matt, about comeback Mazzetti?