Will Rybakina’s title be the first of many?

26:43Catherine Whitaker:David under the bus I'm not sure if David answered it in terms of whether oh we didn't he didn't but

26:48Matt Roberts:I am giving him a pass because I do think it might be impossible.

26:52Catherine Whitaker:Do I also have that pass? Can I cash that in? Let's see. Let's see where we go.

26:57Matt Roberts:I'll assess at the end.

26:59David Law:I gave a good answer even if I didn't give an answer.

27:01Catherine Whitaker:You gave a brilliant context as to why it's impossible to make that answer. Thank you.

27:09Matt Roberts:I mean, I think I would... What I won't accept, Matt, is another answer about Rabatkin as talent.

27:17David Law:Right.

27:17Matt Roberts:Because we know. So you've got to give a take without mentioning her talent. Well, I'm not asking about her talent. Her talent is not in question. Her potential to win more Grand Slams is undeniable. The game speaks for itself.

27:34Catherine Whitaker:But I think what I would say to that is that I had been starting to have some doubts about her future. You know, like I know I said, like, we always put her in the mix and we always think she can possibly win Wimbledon again. You know, I just said that. And I think I think I have believed that. But I have doubted it a little bit as well because of because of her record over the last couple of years. She hadn't been the player we know she can be for quite a long time. And I suppose what this week does is just like a jolt, a reminder that, yes, the level is still there. But I do still have a lot of the same doubts in terms of you use that word fragility.

28:22Catherine Whitaker:And David's described the absolute mess that is that Vukov situation. That's all still there. And I still think it could well turn bad again. And I hate saying that. That's not what I want to happen. But it's a worry for me, for sure. I also have had a bit of a theory going about Rebecca and her in long events. You know, like she's tended to win the 500s on tour. And I don't necessarily think that's about the level of competition. It might be. but I think these long events when you've got an unsettled situation behind the scenes it just seems like maybe some stuff can build up particularly on off days you know, whereas you're not just like playing all the time like you are at 500 this was obviously a short event she did have some off days and then the other thing is kind of what we talked about on the last pod with the conditions here you know, like indoors and I do think what you said last time Catherine if we're going to have an indoor specialist on the WTA tour it feels like it probably should be Rebecca with that serve with those ground strokes I know she can play that kind of tennis anywhere and look that good anywhere but I think she's most likely to play it in these kind of conditions against fellow top players this may be a take that ages badly but sitting here at the end of the 2025 season I would not predict a Grand Slam for Elena Rabatkinner in 2026.

30:02Catherine Whitaker:I think the WTA finals, she was absolutely brilliant, but I just would take, I think I would take more from the slams we've seen this year and apply that to my predictions for next year. And given the strength of the field as well, I don't think Sabalenka's going anywhere. I don't think Svantec's going anywhere. I think Goff will come again and get better, I think. I don't think Anisimova's going anywhere. I think Andreeva is going to come again in 2026. There's just a lot of great players that can win slams. And Robatkin is absolutely in that mix. But I would probably need to see a bit more at a slam again to actually make that prediction, despite how awesome she was this week.

30:53Matt Roberts:I accept.

30:55Catherine Whitaker:Thank you. I did answer. So I'm glad you accept.

31:00Matt Roberts:I accept both your answers. You did well there. I'm sorry. I'm sorry about the question. Anything else to say on Rabakna or the singles before we move on to Stefania Clock for David? no okay without further ado Veronica Kudomitova and Elisa Mertens won the doubles title beating Tamir Babos and Luisa Stefani who I think might be looking for a new partner David 7661 in the doubles final well didn't Tamir Babos say sort of maybe retire in her speech I don't know maybe I misread that but I think Stefani might be, you know, her DMs might be open.

31:49David Law:I think she'll have a lot of suitors.

31:52Matt Roberts:I think I also saw reports that Dabrowski and Routliff are splitting up. I mean, this isn't unusual, is it? I mean, end of a season in doubles, there's a lot of partner swapping. So watch this space. But anyway, Kunimatova Mertens beat Babos Stefani 7-6-6-1 in the doubles final. They saved a match point in the semis against Siniarkova and Townsend. Awesome match. I'm sure David was glued to it. It's their second WTA finals title after winning Fort Worth back in 2022. David, over to you. Yeah, they're the fairly quiet semi-finalist pair of the four.

32:36David Law:When I was looking at this line-up, they're not the ones that my eye was drawn to, despite their brilliance, because you'd got Babos and Stefani, and I'm obviously right into Stefani's matches because I've always liked her as a doubles player, and they were playing against Shea and Ostapenko, and that was 6-4, 7-6. You know, what a win that is for Babos and Stefani to come past that pair. And then you've got Kuromatova and Mertens, as you said, against Siniarka or Townsend, which, you know, they were the favourites really for the title at that stage. And for them to win the opening set, 6-4, get a match point, I mean, it takes some turning around.

33:19David Law:And I think what Kudamatova and Mertens have is that even keel, as well as just obviously being really good doubles players. They just have this temperament about them, particularly Mertens. She's just a great balance for a partner. there um and you know as as the scoreline suggests that for that first set was really close today in the final but then you could just see the the wind come out of the sails of um of stefani and babosh i mean it's it's a lot of tennis in a week you know and and and i think that they just they just hit the wall a bit really in that second set uh against a team that are a bit more used to going all the way, frankly.

34:03David Law:But the doubles was brilliant in the WCA finals. Absolutely fantastic.

34:11Matt Roberts:If my unconfirmed reports of Luisa Stefani needing a new partner, David, are accurate, very much TBC, who would you like to see a team up with in 2026? You're allowed to poach from existing teams.

34:28David Law:That's a good question. I mean I would I mean I think that there is an argument for sort of Katarina Siniak of her and anyone isn't there really I mean she's such a good doubles player so but you know her and Townsend are such a good pair so what always interests me about doubles is that you can you can do this kind of thing Katrin you can kind of pick somebody out of the list or out of another team and think that it's going to work. And it doesn't necessarily work. I mean, it doesn't work like that sometimes.

35:01Matt Roberts:It's like setting two of your friends up.

35:03David Law:Yeah, exactly. And they're going badly wrong. Is it going to mesh? Is there going to be chemistry?

35:07Matt Roberts:You can convince yourself it's just good on paper. I remember Jamie Murray

35:15David Law:teaming up with, I think, Max Murney many a year ago and they couldn't hit a barn door together.

35:22Matt Roberts:I remember Jamie Murray and Neil Skubsky which again seems to make sense they didn't have a lot of chemistry did they

35:30David Law:that's the thing it doesn't necessarily work

35:33Matt Roberts:and he and Bruno Suarez were very very different characters weren't they very different and handled stress very differently on the court but it just worked didn't it those two together ok more Jamie Murray chat than I was expecting just before we move on from the WTA finals in Riyadh feels like we should reflect more generally on the event. And we thought it was best to do that with the help of somebody who has been out there covering it, and that is the Athletics' Matt Futterman, who is, well, I think boarding a plane out of Riyadh as we speak, but has been there for the majority of the tournament.

36:19Matt Roberts:and he has sent us an incredible voice note with some of his reflections and takes and here it is as i passed the days in riyadh this week one word kept running through my head guadalajara i was in guadalajara in 2021 for the wta finals it was an event thrown together at the last minute as the WTA scrambled to find a location with the COVID-19 pandemic lingering on. I didn't go to Guadalajara with particularly high expectations, and here's what I remember. It was awesome. The 6 ,000-seat stadium and the surrounding grounds, even the streets outside it, were packed, especially for the night sessions.

37:02They were loud and filled with everything I think a sporting event should be filled with, life and fun and music and song and the vibes that Garbina Muguruza rode all the way to the title, the last big one of her career. A lot of that stadium was built on scaffolding. The stands shook after a big point. I remember thinking if I put on a hiking boot and gave it a good kick on the right spot, the whole thing might come down. Climbing up four flights of metal scaffolding stairs to the press seats was harrowing, but God, it was a great event. So that's my bar. That's what I'm going to measure Riyadh and every other WTA finals against for the rest of my career.

37:42Because this is the signature event of the women's tour. It shouldn't be okay, or passable, or fine, or graded on a curve, because the people in whatever part of the world who host it aren't all that familiar with the sport and its stars. It should be awesome, or as Steve Jobs used to demand of Apple products, insanely great. Is that too much to ask? I don't think it is. Look, I give the Saudis some credit for trying. I wasn't here last year. The players all said the stadium was far more full this time around. They said the fans seemed like they had gone to school on the sport. They yelled their names and cheered at the proper times.

38:21The players said the facilities are top-notch, and they are. The court is high quality. Their hotel is luxe. The player lounge area has good food and cushy red carpets and soft couches and a great gym. Amanda Anisimova, who got here early to acclimate to the conditions, said she liked her ATV ride in the desert. All that's good to hear. And still, I just don't know why the WTA has come here. The Riyadh versions of the WTA finals don't register anywhere close to the late rounds of Indian Wells or Madrid or Beijing on the awesome scale. And I think the tour finals should. It's the richest prize in the sport.

38:58Is it the fifth most important event? And I think that's what the tours want their finals to be thought of. Sitting in the stands of Kingside University Stadium, the room just felt kind of flat. There were lots of empty seats, big swaths of them on the side of the stadium where the luxury suites are, even in the semifinals, and even for the killer matchups like Anisimova's Shantek and Goff's Stabilanka and Stabilanka in Anisimova. Maybe it was more full than last year. Still, the venue only seats about 5 ,000. Doesn't the WTA want to be in a place where they can get a bigger, rowdier, noisier crowd than that for its biggest event?

39:39Something that would really come across as great on television? Like I said, I refuse to grade this event on a curve. It's either awesome and insanely great, or it isn't. The players are insanely great. They deserve to be celebrated in that way. There's the elephant in the room, too. Saudi Arabia's alternative universe approach to human rights. That's a whole other topic that Charlie spoke very eloquently about last week. I agree with every word he said. My not repeating all those words doesn't mean I'm normalizing this situation. There were nauseating moments during press conferences where people on the payroll of the organizers here would ask players something like, How great does it feel to be part of creating this legacy for young girls and women in Saudi Arabia?

40:27Seriously? I could go on and on about all that, and you know what it would sound like. Instead, I wanted to come at this from the perspective of whether the show was worthy of the event. I know the counter-argument. There are roughly 15 million reasons to hold this tournament here. The Saudis offered a record purse and pay equity with the men's finals. Good for them. Sabalenka and Rabakina played for what I'm pretty sure is the biggest prize in the history of women's sports,$5.3 million. dollars. Good for them. Great for them. I can hear every player who was here getting after me on this point.

41:04You know what's awesome, Matt? Fifteen million dollars is awesome. I'm sure it is. And I'm not the one working the phones fielding offers from other interested hosts. Maybe no one else was even close to guaranteeing that number. And maybe it's not fair for me to ask anyone to take less than the highest offer for their work, if that's what the choice comes down to. But does Does it have to come down to that? I'm still left wondering if there might not have been a better way. For years now, each time the WTA has a chance to raise the profile of its biggest event, it has mostly decided to hide it from its core fans.

41:39I'm all for growing the sport and putting tournaments in new locations, but should you do that with your biggest event? Should you really put it in the middle of the world's biggest construction site? Check that. We get us like 50 of the world's biggest construction sites. this massive sprawl of sand and rocks and cranes and earth-moving equipment. I've never seen anything like it. Riyadh is also 8 hours ahead of the East Coast of the United States and 11 ahead of the West Coast. That made these matches pretty unwatchable for most people in the U.S. That's not an unimportant market. There are some pretty important companies there that you'd think the tour would want to cultivate as sponsors.

42:18In Europe, another pretty important market, Much of the competition took place during the workday or the dinner hour. Better, but not exactly ideal. It's been so long since those regions hosted this event on any kind of long-term basis. Most people, even fans, people I know who love tennis, don't really know what this event is. I think I was about the only American journalist in Riyadh. There was barely any European press presence. For now, the WTA has lost the argument with a lot of the Western media that this is worth paying attention to. That's too bad. I think they've lost that argument with a lot of fans too.

42:57Then again, I'm not sure they've been arguing as much as they should. I want them to make that argument by making the Tour Finals one of the great shows and events in the sport. It can be. I've seen it. I've felt awesome. I'd like to feel it again.

43:13Matt Roberts:Heck of a summary there of the tournament from Matt Futterman. And we're really grateful to Matt for that voice note. Just a minor fact correction on that from Matt. The stadium capacity is actually 4 ,200 and not 5 ,000, as he stated in that voice note. And it feels and looks small on the TV. Now, obviously, in principle, I think it's better to have a small stadium that's full or fuller than a bigger one that's empty. But it is depressing that they've made that call because they don't think they can fill a bigger stadium. I find it, you know, even as Matt's done there, taking the human rights out of it, which is not to say it's not the biggest aspect of all of this for me.

44:02Matt Roberts:It is. It's just that we've gone into detail on that ahead of time. even taking the human rights element out of it I still find it a bummer seeing this event not feel as big and as buzzy as it should be and not really having any confidence that that is the trajectory it is on I find all this growing the sport and growing the appetite for the sport in the area

44:35Matt Roberts:bullshit really There might be incremental growth and there might be incrementally greater enthusiasm for the sport and spectating the sport in the area as the years of this tournament go on. And Matt has reported today in The Athletic that the WTA is very enthusiastic about extending the existing deal for the WTA finals to remain in Riyadh. That might happen a bit. That is absolutely not the reason the WTA finals are in Riyadh. They are in there because of money. It is money. That is it. And look, yes, I know I'm always banging on about equal prize money. I want the WTA finals to be able to offer the same prize money that the ATP finals should offer.

45:26Matt Roberts:But I just think it's and I'm not naive enough to think that money, money shouldn't be a factor or a consideration in any of these decisions. decisions, but the tours seem to have such a short-term attitude towards revenue raising. Like it is long-term, I believe, diminishing what should be one of the sport's greatest products, which is not going to enhance the revenue raising potential of the WTA in the long term. It's a short-term cash grab over long-term growth and betterment of the sport, which in the end will yield greater revenues. And look, I'm not a CEO. I know there are difficult decisions and pressures and agendas and stakeholders left, right and centre that I'm not privy to.

46:25Matt Roberts:And I'm sure I would flounder when faced with all of it. But I do know that the WTA finals is in Riyadh because of money. So don't bullshit me otherwise. And some people will be OK with that. Some people will say, well, it's capitalism. You know, don't be naive. Cash is king. I think we can be better than that.

46:49David Law:Well, you know, Jack Draper talking to us yesterday in the show we put out yesterday about let's look beyond the money. and try to think of the best way to put on kind of the best show. And it's a different subject, but it's the same subject, really. Because what Matt was saying about Guadalajara, every time we have an addition to this thing, I think of Guadalajara as well, and I wasn't even there. But it jumped out of the TV at me. The sound of it, the feel of it, the look in Garbini Magaruta's face as she won it, how much it meant to her. I don't think I'd ever seen her in tears before. like that, you know, it moved people.

47:32David Law:Sport is meant to move you and atmosphere moves you. And look where that sport is going at the moment in terms of places that don't have any atmosphere. You know, you think of the Billie Jean King Cup finals recently and the WTA finals every year now. it's we're so keen to get behind these tournaments and celebrate women's tennis celebrate tennis generally but particularly women's tennis you know we want it to be we want it to get the stage it deserves and the atmosphere it deserves and the crowds it deserves and yet because of money you end up in these situations where we're not in South America we're not it's not buzzing you know and And I just think if you went after the crowds, if you went after the atmosphere, if you went after the stage and made it look great and sound great, it would end up creating revenue that way in the long term, because people would want to be attaching themselves to it.

48:39David Law:People would want to be part of it, sponsoring it, showing it, paying media rights for it. Maybe I'm naive too, Catherine, but that's my attitude towards it.

48:52Matt Roberts:Matt anything to add

48:55Catherine Whitaker:no not really you've all said it so well I actually got a bit teary listening to Matt Futterman's voice note when I first listened to it today like it was so so pitch perfect I thought yeah flat nauseating money basically the WTA finals experience

49:18Matt Roberts:yep absolutely thank you Matt for that grim as it is it was an incredible summary and we are very grateful the good news is we have some absolute nonsense to pick ourselves up with in part two join us for the latest on Lorenzo Mazzetti's nightmare in just a moment welcome back to part two of the tennis podcast and our preview of the NITO ATP finals, which will be starting in Turin tomorrow, Sunday, the 9th of November. And Lorenzo Mazzetti has made it. The nightmare continues. And do you know, it was Lorenzo Mazzetti that broke the news that Novak Djokovic isn't playing Turin because he came into press after his defeat to Djokovic in the Athens final, three hours of the Athens final.

50:19Matt Roberts:He came into press before Djokovic. So he was the first to be asked about it and he disclosed that Djokovic had told him at the net, don't worry, I have just beaten you in an absolutely soul-destroying final. Another one of those for you. But don't worry about it. you're going to Turin anyway and this whole week has actually been for nothing you're welcome

50:43Catherine Whitaker:I did wonder if he'd said something at the net because Mazzetti went from devastation to smiling within seconds of embracing Djokovic at the net ok god what a situation

51:01Matt Roberts:so many thoughts he must have been processing there just lost another heartbreaking final. He needs to win one of these. This wasn't just about getting to Turin. He really wanted to win a blooming title and break that duck. I know he's won them in the past but it's been a long time and he's had a lot of heartbreakers now. These are stacking up. He also wanted to make it to Turin and make the last few weeks somehow worthwhile. He's also feeling absolutely bloody exhausted and there's probably a part of his brain going if I don't go to Turin now I'm off the hook. I can sleep for a week. That'll be great.

51:42Matt Roberts:And he's also probably thinking, what, you mean I needn't have bothered with all this?

51:47David Law:And he's in the Davis Cup.

51:48Matt Roberts:You led me on. You led me on all week. So I'd come and play your family's tournament. What a load of nonsense. But I was obsessed with absolutely all of it. Yeah.

52:04David Law:Yeah. Very funny. it's very funny all of it's quite amusing i mean i i generally think novak jokovic is hilarious at this stage you know the fact that he can be this age and still beat so many of these guys um and yet sort of be hanging on by a thread physically at times it looks like but getting the job done and then celebrating by ripping his shirt off in front. It's an amazingly dramatic scene. And then just, you know, keeping everybody... I mean, he is the master at keeping people waiting. Every time he's announced for a press conference, you pretty much just put in your diary, oh, that'll be 20 minutes later than announced.

52:53David Law:There'll be a delay. And it doesn't matter. He's at the stage of his career. He just doesn't give a shit, does he, about upsetting people like that. He's just going to do it his way. And I think, you know, a lot of people just think, well, when you've done all that, you can just do what you like. That's what he's doing. And it's quite funny.

53:17Matt Roberts:Yeah, I mean, looking at both of them at the end of that Athens final, I was like, neither of you should go to Turin. They both looked just absolutely fucked, just totally fucked. I cannot believe even one of them is getting on a plane to Turin to play the seven best players in the world tomorrow. The press release reads, Novak Djokovic has withdrawn from the field due to a shoulder injury. Oh, yeah. He just won a title. he is replaced in the Jimmy Connors group by Lorenzo Mazzetti who becomes a direct acceptance Alexander Bublik is now the first alternate a second singles alternate will be confirmed in due course so phone calls are being made hastily when they used to do the photo Catherine

54:11David Law:like you know in London and they used to have a week didn't they between the two I think and they used to do the big photo and they will again from next year

54:19Matt Roberts:big build up This can't happen next year. They have changed.

54:24Catherine Whitaker:I mean, there was a year in London when this happened.

54:25Matt Roberts:Six players in this one.

54:27Catherine Whitaker:There was a year in London when... There was seven.

54:30Matt Roberts:There was only one missing.

54:31Catherine Whitaker:No, there was a year in London when half the field was in Paris. I promise you. It was back to back and half the field were in Paris. Yes. It then got better. But, like, that's the illustration. That was 2012 or 2013, that was. and so we've had

54:51Matt Roberts:here we are again

54:53Catherine Whitaker:we're still there we're still in this ludicrous situation the sport just moves so slowly like wake up yeah

55:03Matt Roberts:we had a draw a photo shoot and a media day without knowing the field and it goes back to Matt Futterman's voice note

55:12Catherine Whitaker:like only three quarters of the players were in the photo shoot this is your premium event This is the biggest event that you have and you've organised your calendar in such a way that you can't promote it. We had Yannick Sinner drawn to play U.Unknown. Unknown, unknown. On the order of play. What are we doing?

55:41Yes.

55:43Matt Roberts:Well, I can tell you what the draw actually is now. The other thing is that with this photo shoot and everything, Félix Auger -Élysine was there. He's been into him the whole time.

55:55Catherine Whitaker:But not able to be in the photo shoot.

55:58Matt Roberts:Been able to.

55:59Catherine Whitaker:Because he's a slash in the draw.

56:02Matt Roberts:Held in a holding area. Do you think they had him in a sort of purgatory area of the hotel? Like couldn't get the upgrade to the suite until his qualification was confirmed. Only gets to have a continental breakfast. and doesn't get the full buffet.

56:19Catherine Whitaker:And like, Mazzetti's made such a thing of wanting to be in Turin. As you said, he seems to be in no fit state to go. He didn't look like he wanted to be in Turin. He's got to go, hasn't he? Like, he can't not go now. Oh, he has to go. So Mazzetti's going to be just a shadow of himself, you would have thought. I mean, by the way.

56:37Matt Roberts:I don't think he will be all right, David. I really don't. Oh, come on. I think he'll enjoy being there. I think tennis-wise, I mean it. I think he's absolutely fucked. I don't think he's in any fit state to do anything.

56:52David Law:He's got two weeks of vibes to look forward to in Italy.

56:57Catherine Whitaker:This match, by the way, was amazing.

57:02Matt Roberts:Like, such a great match.

57:04Catherine Whitaker:Like, the first set Mazzetti played, I think, is possibly the best set he's ever played on a hard court. He was unbelievably good. And yet I did think, God, a set up, I'm not sure that helps you that much. Like that just means you've got sort of more to lose. And like, then we saw it because if you want to know why Lorenzo Mazzetti has not won a title in three years, watched the three-all game in the third set. He'd just broken back. You know, he'd just played a brilliant game to get it back on serve against Novak Djokovic. You've been coming at him and got the crowd going. But Mazzetti's back.

57:40Catherine Whitaker:He's level. He's in it. And that game, I mean, two double faults in it. He missed an easy, easy forehand with Novak Djokovic basically given up on the point. He somehow managed to push it long and he lost the game and got broken. He did break again as Novak Djokovic was serving for the title, but then got broken back straight away and Novak Djokovic had another attempt to serve it out. It was like the most clutch player in history, Novak Djokovic. clearly depleted clearly not at his best but still sort of producing great stuff against a guy who is so talented and yet hasn't won a title in three years like this was only going to end one way like it was I was watching it thinking this is just total psychological torture of Lorenzo Mazzetti because it was only going to end one way and it did and Novak Djokovic has won it but I think this is almost the most cruel scenario as you said like if he if he hadn't won and Novak Djokovic should play Turin it was like well I gave my all I had to do that and I was beaten by the better man I've had a great season let's prepare for the Davis Cup but

58:54Matt Roberts:I'm going to go and lie down right

58:55Catherine Whitaker:but now he doesn't have a title yes he's got into Turin but he hasn't he hasn't really qualified has he you know he's got in as nice he wanted to be

59:07David Law:the alternate lying on a sofa

59:11Catherine Whitaker:for a week picking up money. I really hope he can show up and bring it in front of that Italian crowd. I think he will. Because I love his tennis.

59:18Matt Roberts:He was unbelievable

59:20Catherine Whitaker:in that first set. Did you see him at the end, David?

59:23David Law:I think he's going to come again. He is such a gorgeous tennis player. It was unreal what he was doing at times.

59:32Matt Roberts:Look, it's good news for the... You want Lorenzo Mazzetti in your finals. I just don't necessarily like the remains of Lorenzo Mazzetti. I worry about that.

59:42Catherine Whitaker:And look, 101st title for Novak Djokovic. He's now two off.

59:46Matt Roberts:Unreal.

59:47Catherine Whitaker:He's now two off Federer. And like, you have to hold so many conflicting thoughts in your head watching Novak Djokovic at the moment. It's like, gosh, he's hunched over. How can he do this physically? And then the next point, he's doing the splits and hitting a winner. It's, what's the point in all this? You've already won everything. and then the next point the whole stadium is going absolutely crazy for him and it's like oh that's the point because you love that and that's that must look that must be a brilliant feeling why would you give that up and it's like oh he can't beat Sinan Alcaraz anymore and yet he's just beaten Lorenzo Mazzetti who's like in the absolute sort of prime of his career he can still beat all the other guys like it's it's such a mindfuck watching Novak Djokovic right now and And the fact that he manages still to pick up a title, he hasn't lost before the semifinals of any of his last six events or something.

1:00:44Catherine Whitaker:Like, it's pretty insane. It's pretty insane. And yet, I don't know. You say it like it's hilarious. I guess it is hilarious. I also found it kind of annoying, like, that the whole event was being held up by him. I get it. if the calendar's going to be like that make use of the calendar but I don't think he ever had any intention whatsoever to place you in and I sort of just wish he I liked the drama of it it was fun, I got into it but I sort of think it would have been better if we'd just known

1:01:21David Law:Why do you think he's done that?

1:01:23Matt Roberts:I think rules wise he can't he can't formally pull out is my understanding you can't pull out of a tournament with injury whilst you're sort of physically, well, that's my understanding. He could have tipped Mazzetti off, is what he could have done. And I don't know why he didn't, or seemingly didn't, but his family does own that tournament, and it was definitely to the benefit of that tournament that Lorenzo Mazzetti played it. But, you know, it's tough to attract decent fields at this time of the year.

1:02:02David Law:Crazy that you can't just say, look, the end of my season will be here and I've decided I'm not going to place you in. But you're not injured. Yeah, but I'm Novak Djokovic. I've been doing this for 40 years. You know, I've done my bit.

1:02:17Matt Roberts:And look, David, he could have tipped the ATP off.

1:02:23Matt Roberts:The impression I get is he didn't even do that. Obviously, the ATP couldn't put anything out publicly. But my understanding is that he didn't even tip them off privately. You know, he really did keep this to himself to just enhance the element of nonsense.

1:02:39David Law:So you don't think he waited and sort of thought, I'll see how I feel? You think he'd absolutely categorically...

1:02:47Matt Roberts:I don't know. My read is the same as Matt's. I think he was probably happy with having the door open should he change his mind. But I think his default position throughout this week and probably for a long time was I'm not playing. Unless something changes and I feel differently. I do still find it funny. It is. It's funny. It's funny and it's stupid and it's annoying. It's all of it. So what have we got? we've got a Jimmy Connors group with Carlos Alcaraz Lorenzo Mazzetti Taylor Fritz and Alex de Manor and we have a Bjorn Borg group with Yannick Sinner, Alexander Zverev Ben Shelton and Felix Auger-Aliassime now prepare to get very confused about who is in what group because because of the nonsense they've had to play usually you get one group playing one day and the next group playing the next day and they alternate and it really helps you get your head around who's in one group who's in what group and it helps you with the inevitable maths and scenarios nonsense that you get from round robin tennis well because of the Athens hoo-ha we're having to play different groups on the same day this year.

1:04:17Matt Roberts:Certainly to begin with. The tentacles of nonsense really do stretch so far. Do you think they will...

1:04:22Catherine Whitaker:I believe there is precedent. Again, I think...

1:04:25Matt Roberts:They will change that.

1:04:26Catherine Whitaker:I think we've been in this ludicrous situation before and I think they did make a group play back-to-back days to get it back on track, I think. But...

1:04:37Matt Roberts:That doesn't feel great either, though. No. Anyway.

1:04:42Catherine Whitaker:Let's see what they do.

1:04:44Matt Roberts:On Sunday, we have Carlos Alcaraz against Alex de Menor and we have Alexander Zverev against Ben Shelton. So that first match is from the Conners group and the second match is from the Borg group. And then on Monday, we have Lorenzo Mazzetti against Taylor Fritz. Go with God, Lorenzo. And we have Yannick Sinner against Unknown Unknown, no, crossed out, Felix Auger, Aliassime. I suppose in a preview of a tournament we should talk about who you think is going to win but I know the answer and I think the listener knows the answer it's Yannick Sinner, right? does anyone think anybody other than Yannick Sinner is winning this tournament?

1:05:30Matt Roberts:David's having a think about doing something crazy here that is your right, David

1:05:36David Law:I mean, I'd be pretty surprised if it's not Yannick Sinner at the moment. Can I give it a round of matches to decide?

1:05:44Matt Roberts:No. This is the preview. Yeah. Matt? I mean, you can change your mind, but I do need an answer now.

1:05:53David Law:I want to see what Alcraz looks like because I always feel like once I've seen him play, I know where I stand.

1:06:01Matt Roberts:Matt?

1:06:02Catherine Whitaker:Yeah, Sinner's my pick.

1:06:08Catherine Whitaker:yeah Sinner's my pick I haven't really got anything else to say in addition to that

1:06:14Matt Roberts:who okay so Sinner coming through the board group who else do you think is going to come through the board group and who do you have coming through the Connors group are you going to put your money where your mouth is on Ranzo Mazzetti David and pick him to come through the group no

1:06:30David Law:I'd have thought Zverev and Sinner will come through that group. I think maybe Felix.

1:06:38Catherine Whitaker:I think I might go Felix.

1:06:42David Law:I mean, there is a question mark over Zvera's health, isn't there, from the other week. And Shelton's. He was not in good shape. I mean, Shelton's, you know, he's doing well, frankly, to be playing as well as he is, given the injury here at the US Open. And I dare say he's not quite there yet. But yeah, so I would have thought, I'd say Zverev assuming he fits. But I take the point on Auger Lassime. He looks in pristine condition, really.

1:07:14Catherine Whitaker:Just in the sound of Felix, he's loving his life choices, right? Taking that week off and like thinking, I'll probably get in anyway. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Didn't get him boiled in the nonsense. Like he really did. He did do well there.

1:07:30Matt Roberts:He did. Yeah.

1:07:31David Law:Would have thought Fritz and Elkraz. Matt?

1:07:38Catherine Whitaker:Yes, I think so. I know Matt Togger over Dimonor. I'm tempted by Dimonor.

1:07:47David Law:I mean, why would you think he's going to get in ahead of Fritz? I don't really. I just rate Dimonor. He's a great player to watch. I really do enjoy watching him play now. He's become a really interesting player to watch because he's dynamic. You know, he realised that he's got to add more and be assertive. So I like watching him.

1:08:12Matt Roberts:In the doubles, we have a Peter Fleming group with Cash and Glasspool, Granoya Zabajos, Kravitz and Putz and Beleli and Vavasori and a John McEnroe group with Heliavara Patton, Aravalo Pavic, Salisbury Skubski and Harrison King. We should also talk about the Mets final, which wrapped up earlier today and the title for Lerner Tien in an incredible final. 6-3, 3-6, 7-6. He trailed 5-1, did Tien, in the deciding set tie break. So a total heartbreaker for Cameron Norrie. But the end to an incredible season, really, for Lerner Tien, Matt.

1:09:00Catherine Whitaker:Yes, I must say I had to sacrifice this match. I did not have enough screens. So I didn't see a ball of this. But yes, absolutely. Like TN, I mean, I did know who he was a year ago, but like only just. And now I'm going to contradict myself because I just said I had to sacrifice this match and I didn't watch it. But I'm also going to say he is one of the players I really do like to go out of my way to watch. Just not as much as Lorenzo Mazzetti, apparently, and not as much as Sabalenka and Rabatkin in the WTA finals final. He's not quite there, but he is high on my pecking order, I promise, because I love his tennis brain.

1:09:50Catherine Whitaker:I think he's got a really different, interesting game. and you know I think he's still very much a hard court player isn't he did sort of disappear a little bit in the in the middle of the season but I've really enjoyed watching him on the hard courts this year like unpick some some top players that was really notable about about the start of his season how dangerous he was against the top players I just love him to be able to improve that serve because I do think you know I do think it's still going to be holding him back a little bit But if he can, watch out because, yeah, he is so good from the back of the court.

1:10:30Matt Roberts:Well, he's got a whole six week off season now, Matt. So he's probably going to come out the gates in 2026 like Ivo Karlovic. Watch this space. That's it for part two. We'll be back in part three with a bit of reaction to our Jack Draper interview. you.

1:10:48Matt Roberts:Welcome back to part three of the tennis podcast where we just wanted to reflect a bit on our two hours with Jack Draper this week. We only did the interview on Wednesday. It went out on Friday morning. It's been a real whirlwind for us and it's been really very nice seeing the seeing the reaction to Jack because what you see in that interview is exactly what you get. Like a lot of friends have texted me and said, you know, but what was he like off the record? And I'm like, exactly what you've heard on the record. Like that is Jack Draper. You're getting his totally authentic self. And most people seem to be really responding to that, David, just as we did.

1:11:38David Law:Yeah, it's pleasing. I mean, I think he spoke really well about the subjects of which he feels really passionate about. I mean, to go out of your way, to actually get in touch with a show like ours, people you don't know very well, and pitch it, you know, and have the idea and go with it. And just literally, he arranged everything. He sort of put everything aside in order so that he could be there. And then when I ended up in my eight-hour nightmare on the motorway, there he was happy to put the thing back three hours in order to still enable me to be there you know he couldn't have been more accommodating and I sort of hoped for him although we wanted to do a really robust journalistic job and ask the right questions and challenge one or two things and so forth I also I'm pulling for him to get the result he wants you know to start this conversation and and to be able to to make some progress because I mean for a start I think I believe in it I actually think they do need to reduce the the length of these Masters 1000s we're always banging on about it but I'm pulling for him in that regard and I'm also pulling for him as a player because he made such strides didn't he in the first half of this year and he looked a real feature of the of the of the top end of the sport a factor and i i hope that his physicality allows him to be that because he really is a top guy like just a really nice person um who who who is thoughtful and polite and considerate and and it's i mean they're basic human qualities that you want people to have.

1:13:29David Law:And listen, there are lots of good people in tennis, I think, but I've not met many like him who seem so unaffected, generally speaking, by tennis. And yeah, I hope that he does well in the future. And I hope other players see the ways he's handled this situation, this approach to the media and not putting it in the hands of somebody else to make the calls for him all the time. I know it's not possible to do that all the time because they've got so many things to do. But look at the PR it gives him. I'm just going to keep telling people about this. And that's good for him. But he's not done it for those reasons.

1:14:17He's done it because, well, that's just the way he is.

1:14:20David Law:But yeah, great guy.

1:14:23Matt Roberts:yeah Matt

1:14:26David Law:yeah well I

1:14:27Matt Roberts:he called Fulham a good team these days yeah that

1:14:31Catherine Whitaker:might have been the least accurate thing he said another loss today for the Whites I agree with everything David said about Jack's character I guess the only thing I would sort of add is how how interesting I found it hearing the players perspective on this right like it was exactly what he wanted to do you know he's we hear snippets of a player perspective in a press conference or in a tweet and we know the general mood and the general feeling but i think he did a great job of really adding to our conversation and discussion on the scheduling issues by taking us inside the mindset of a player right and that is something that we can't provide and I think he did a great job of articulating that you know like I do think sometimes I am a little bit oh well just skip a tournament like you can do that and I do think players maybe have they do have that agency but I think he did a great job of explaining the mindset of a tennis player and why it's not just as easy as that and you are chasing ranking points and you are chasing the year-end finals and you don't want to lose an edge over a player and all this kind of thing and why that grind and that toll and that loneliness can really wear on you.

1:15:59Catherine Whitaker:And I think he did a brilliant job of explaining why generally these top players are privileged and they live good lives, but also why it's okay to want change. And I think he did a great job of balancing those things, of recognising that some people won't agree with him, but just putting it all on the record out there and being so open and honest and reflective, I think was absolutely to his credit. And, you know, if players conducted themselves and discussed the issues in the sport like Jack Draper did there, you know, I think the sport would be in kind of a better place. I think in that respect, he's really sort of leading by example.

1:16:46Catherine Whitaker:So, yeah, shout out to him for that.

1:16:52Matt Roberts:Yeah, Jack, I'll be there supporting you in the one-point slam.

1:16:58Catherine Whitaker:And you will.

1:17:01Matt Roberts:I will. Yeah, it was a great experience. And we're really, really grateful. And we hope you enjoyed it. we have a mascot for this episode this is a face I know this is Maverick Maverick owned by Carol of course a two and a half year old German short head pointer who proudly represented the pod at Wimbledon in 2024 and couldn't resist coming back for more Maverick is guilty of chasing cats shredding airplane neck pillows on airplanes or I've got some questions there Carol and also shredding fitted sheets snuffing out unsuspecting rodents consuming large amounts of horse poo that's a tough scene knocking over furniture and requiring four hours a day of vigorous exercise my god Carol what is your daily step count as he's a proud card carrying member of the top ten most active dog breeds club yes I have heard this about German short head pointers They are wonderful, but they are, it's quite the undertaking.

1:18:13Matt Roberts:Thankfully, says Carol, we have the tennis podcast, which invariably puts him to sleep in seconds. He loves every dog he meets and all humans who have dogs and carry treats. He's not so sure about humans who don't have dogs, which is understandable in my opinion. He's a full time job and he's 100 % worth it. Well, Maverick would like Jack Draper. I think Jack Draper carries dog treats about his person. that's the vibe I get from him we love Maverick they are stunning dogs, German short head pointers, he's a what a handsome boy, thank you Maverick for coming back to us and thank you Carol, hello to Phoebe, Maisie and Roger our mascots of course and our top folks and executive producers Greg, Chris and Jeff shall we have some shout outs Matt?

1:19:03Catherine Whitaker:We have Ruth Summerfield from Wimbledon. Hi, Ruth.

1:19:11Matt Roberts:From actual Wimbledon. Ruth, my neighbour. Like Ruth, our accountant, David. Correct.

1:19:23Yes.

1:19:30Lovely lady.

1:19:34Matt Roberts:what else do we know about Ruth?

1:19:38Catherine Whitaker:Ruth says I've been a friend since the beginning but only accidentally as I tried to buy it as a gift for my daughter Katie but didn't do it properly so I ended up with a gift for myself and then bought again for Katie who also like myself kept up being a friend every year since and we went to your first live pub together

1:19:58Matt Roberts:oh Oh, mother-daughter listening duos is a lovely thing.

1:20:04David Law:I hope it's all worth it. Yeah.

1:20:07Matt Roberts:Thank you, Ruth. That's lovely. And hello, Katie, as well.

1:20:10Catherine Whitaker:We've also got Joseph Ha. We know Joseph.

1:20:15Matt Roberts:Hello, Joseph. We know Joseph.

1:20:19Catherine Whitaker:Joseph grew up on a farm in South Dakota, but has lived in various parts of Asia since 2010. And he says that he has a real soft spot for Daniil Medvedev. So his recent Almaty win was a highlight of the year.

1:20:41Matt Roberts:Yeah, those photos were a highlight of everyone's year, Joseph. Thank you for reminding me of that imagery.

1:20:46David Law:I do love hearing about people who have a favourite player and, you know, how their mood and their days are sort of affected by how that player is getting on. You know, it's cool. So delighted for you that he's had a bit of a resurgence, Joseph, because it'd be a bit rocky all year.

1:21:08Matt Roberts:I bet he's getting a call as we speak about whether he fancies being an alternate in Turin. And I think he's saying no. I think I've already seen some Medfordev holiday photos. Yes. In fact, you're right. I have too. Doesn't mean he's not getting a call, Matt. I reckon, David, he's in the Maldives.

1:21:26Catherine Whitaker:Yeah. Probably. Yeah. You would, wouldn't you?

1:21:30Matt Roberts:Thank you, Joseph.

1:21:32Catherine Whitaker:And finally, we have Michael Middleton from New York, just 10 miles from the Billie Jean King National Tennis Centre.

1:21:43Matt Roberts:Michael. Love that. Like Michael Chang, coach of Lerner Tien.

1:21:48David Law:Who was seen giving Lerner Tien the loveliest embrace upon the title victory today.

1:21:56Catherine Whitaker:Michael says that he started listening to the podcast during the pandemic, often listens as he walks the dogs. He loves Tennis Relived and his husband has also become a fan and attended our live show prior to the US Open this year with Michael.

1:22:18Matt Roberts:Love that.

1:22:20David Law:Awesome.

1:22:21Matt Roberts:Thank you for coming to that. Really appreciate it. Michael, Joseph, Ruth, thank you very much for being friends of the Tennis Podcast. If you'd like to become a friend, the link is in our show notes. We have two bonus episodes coming for friends next week. We have our penultimate edition of Tennis Relived for 2025 about the incredible, iconic broadcaster Bud Collins. And we also have a live Q &A show on Wednesday evening. It'll also be available as a podcast. So if you'd like to become a friend, get access to all of that, as well as The Barge, ad-free listening, Hannah's column, all sorts of fun, all of our archive of bonus episodes.

1:23:02Matt Roberts:Then the link is in our show notes.

1:23:06Catherine Whitaker:Folks, we will be back on Friday, I believe, on the main feed to wrap up the group stages of the ATP finals.

1:23:20Matt Roberts:we will be back on the main feed on Friday if you can't wait for them the thing to do is become a friend of the tennis podcast and then on Sunday so Sunday the 16th of November our rap show about the ATP finals will be live on YouTube at 8pm UK time it'll also be available as a podcast but if you want to join us live for that 8pm UK time on Sunday the 16th pop that one in your diary Maybe Lorenzo Mazzetti will win the whole thing and prove me wrong. And we can open the show with a little soundbite of me saying that guy is fucked. Folks, thank you for listening. We'll speak to you soon.