10 Design Commandments: with Emmett Shine

28:38You know, I run an agency, you know, he's one of our designers. And so I almost hid behind this facade to protect myself. Yeah. Because no one was paying, you know, apartment 2C, Chinatown, Emmett, anywhere. And I was like, you know, I can't do net 75. Yeah. Like I got to pay my rent now. Yeah, I need this. I need I need this invoice. Yeah, expeditiously. So how does so I don't we don't have enough time to get into, you know, the 10 years of gin lane. But how does it go from, you know, a guy that can't get his invoices paid to creating some of the most iconic brands of the last 20 years, which Harry's Sweetgreen, Warby Parker, Hymns, Recess, Sunday Goods, House, Smile Direct Club, like all these brands that basically you are a part of the origin of, I think I've never been like a plan person.

29:28And I think when I've had plans, I've fucked it up. Yeah. And what I think worked of that 10 years was not having a plan and trying to just do the best job I could with what was in front of me and not being scared of opportunities presented. And so again, working with like jewelry designers and photographers, you know a lot of them didn't have the budgets that i felt i would say this is worth 5 000 bucks and they're like i have 1750 and i'm like i'll take it but i would say in exchange can you just find me you know 3250 worth of business yeah you're cooler than me i don't know anyone in new york city except skate rats that like we're all sweaty and broke like you're on photo shoots or whatever.

30:18And they're like, okay. And some of them, nothing happened, but others, you know, like one guy, Tim Barber, you know, like I did some sites for him for pennies on the dollar, which I was really honored to do because he's just an awesome photographer at Tiny Vices, was doing stuff with Ryan McGinley and Ryan McGinley kind of backed out of some campaign and Tim got it for Stella McCartney. He spoke us up on set, you know, introduced us to Stella McCartney's creative team for whatever reason, like us, quote unquote. And he was like me and like two 20 year olds you know and they chose us over like sid lee rga like chandelier creative whatever you know and and then adidas it was for a collaboration adidas and adidas was so pissed because we were we couldn't even get in their system yeah like they're like oh have this accounting thing match up with this and we'll route it germany whatever and i'm i'm like i don't know what the hell you're talking about i have like a td bank checking account that forwarded us into fashion.

31:12And then once we were doing fashion and we were just like, oh, what's the coolest thing we could do for this? What's the coolest thing we could do for this? And just pushing and pushing and pushing. Then weirdly, when the startup guys came around and it's Bonobos and it's Warby Parker and it's Everlane, they're like, okay, we'll go to New York. It's kind of this center for digital creative and websites and commerce because of fashion. Who are the guys that are doing the coolest kind of work? And a lot of people said, oh, these weird kids in Chinatown are doing these really progressive websites that load fast they work on these new things calling called phones you know like we were so early on like you know thinking about breakpoints and like loading information fast that we were pretty at the time a progressive little shop kind of like if some shop today was just ripping in terms of like generative ai that looked dope you know that could work for brands or a lot of like I think right now like motion prototyping rendering is like a really fun space that I've been really like looking at for like uh inspiration sure so I think it was just kind of one foot in front of the other and trying to work with people that I thought like had you know momentum or juice or were part of a zeitgeist um and I think I'm kind of trying to almost go back to that now of just being curious and just ending up in weird areas yeah and then And just trying to like, I always just think any industry you're doing, you know, could be, you know, soda or could be, you know, water or could be, you know, non-meat, you know, meat.

32:45Yeah. You know, it's kind of like, okay, there's all these other people having a conversation in the space. Sure. They're presenting like this. How can I present something which is just human nature? It's like dancing or trying to impress a partner. What's your take? Yeah. I mean, that's what branding is. It's all about just differentiation. and meaningful communication. Emmett came in with the 10 design commandments. So I want to say this is the first time in front and center history where we had someone come in with their own philosophies and not just own topic, but like, I want to get this off of my chest.

33:23So I'm just going to take a hard pivot and we're just going to go there because we could talk about, you know, sort of all these brands in the 2010s. We could talk pattern brands is what you've been doing for the last 10 years. Five. Five. Okay, so you do gin lane for 10. 12. Sorry, my research is shoddy at best. You basically create a movement of new brands, a new aesthetic, right? Which is simple and stripped down and loads fast. And these brands are now billion dollar brands, all of them. You take equity in some and you're like, okay, I want to make my own. pattern brands starts right around when I start center.

34:01I remember I, I, I was at the party, you were starting this new company around here. Yeah. I was right around here. And you're like, I'm getting out of this agency game. And I was like, I'm getting into it. I'd been a client for 10 years and, uh, it was time for me to go agency. And you're like, I'm going agency. I'm firing all my clients and I'm going to, I'm going to products. You've been doing that for six years. Um, And you've done incredibly, you've built a handful of really insane product companies, Equal Parts, Miracle, Letterfolk, like all these cool new companies. And now you're going back.

34:39What makes you want to go back? I mean, I think, again, I'm like not a good plan person. And you just got to know who you are. I definitely am like a functional scatterbrain that I'm probably going to die without a plan. but I'm happy for a lot of what has happened in my life. And I think sometimes I just am listening to my gut, you know, like do this, try this. People need to hear this because I think young people try to plan too much. I'm not a big planner guy. I think a lot of things I just do with good intentions and gut instinct. And it's gotten me pretty far. And it sounds like you've deployed a similar model of...

35:18I turned 40 last year and like, I don't feel 40. I don't look 40. I don't think I'm mature of what you'd expect of a 40-year-old. Like, I'm definitely stagnated in certain parts of the brain. But like, what I think I have learned, if I'm like, oh, I've lived a lot of days. I think I'm getting more knowledgeably comfortable with who I am and who I'm not. It's the most beautiful thing. And I think it's okay that I don't know what I'm doing. I wake up every day and I don't have a plan. and I have to like, like I literally am like memento. Like I don't know what day it is. I don't know what I have to do.

35:55I barely know where I am, you know? And it takes me a while, like an hour or two. So I'm also not a great morning person. Okay. Like it takes me a while to like figure out what the hell's going on. Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I have to do these things today with these people by this time, you know, or whatever. And what is a strength to some extent is I'm endlessly focused on what's in front of me. So I have to try to just put stuff in front of me that makes me curious and makes me inspired. And I think with Pattern, we've bought a bunch of brands and we built this platform out and I'm really proud of what we've created.

36:33I think I just missed a little bit of the zero to one conceptual creative tinkering. I've learned a lot about globalization and offshoring and processes and like every, I got to build physical products and design physical products, which I still get to help and assist the team on. I'm also not, I want to be careful when I say this stuff because it's like, oh, I made a change because something's negative. There's nothing negative. And I think I also realized that in that conversation with you those years back, I think I was also maybe burnt out by a chapter and I was looking for change. And I think I got that change and then some with COVID.

37:11And I also realize I'm not a really good manager. I'm not a really good operator. I'm not really good at a lot of these things that are required if you're running a business. I think I'm really great at leading people into challenges, solving problems, using creativity, seeing things that other people don't see, and mixing offline art world aesthetic with progressive digital interfaces and experiences. That's all I want to do. And I think that was also a revelation is that it's okay to be selfish. It's okay to also not be good at something. You don't have to fix everything you're not good at. We're not trying to prove yourself anymore.

37:51You've proven yourself. And I think I turned 40 in a couple of months. And so I'm like, you know, there's something that happens when you're kind of getting to that number. And I don't know, it's just like 21, 30, 40, 50. They're all big markers. Yeah. And you kind of start to think like, oh, I guess I am who I am now. Totally. And you're like, oh, this is what makes me who I am. And I'm proud of that. And I don't want to change. And so I think, I don't know, I relate to that, you know, hugely. And I also, I'm not sort of, you know, I'm not thinking, okay, this is my five-year plan. This is my 10-year plan.

38:25This is where I want Center to be at this moment. Or this is what I want to do. And I think that helps me because I just go with what feels right. And what feels right has been working. And I think it sounds pretty, I mean, all of this has worked for you, you know, at least from the outside. Are you going to stay Pattern? Like is Pattern still your baby, right? Like you're still going to be running it. Yeah, more as like I always say, I'm like the old dead guy from Mad Men floating around the office, you know? I'm like, but still in like a founder, you know, executive capacity, helping Nick and Suze and Anum, who's our creative director as much as I can.

38:58I'm just not as much in the six to eight hours every single day of meetings that are with real responsibilities. You know, I think there's folks that are a lot better at that when the kid who is drawing on the side at vitamin water, it hasn't changed. Sure. And this is what you love to do. And it's like - I think I'm always gonna be drawing on the side. Yeah. And so having a little bit my own practice, it doesn't put me in the way of other people and it doesn't put me in a position where maybe I shouldn't be drawing. I have also realized here, because this is my first time being an entrepreneur, and I sometimes think like, Like, oh, I need to work.

39:38There's a lot of jobs being a studio founder. But being in the creative is the one that I love. And so sometimes I'm like, well, maybe I should just take a step back and, you know, sort of get out of my design director's hair and just let my team do their thing. But it's like that part of it is what I love. It's the part that I enjoy doing every day. So I certainly understand why the sort of desire to just be in the making. It's just the endless tension of like having responsibilities that allow you to do what you love. There's always going to be that tension. Like I would talk to this guy, Hugh Francis, who has Sanctuary, worked for me at Gin Lane back in the day.

40:15And it's always a struggle that he has of like, do I want to more be creative of how I engineer a studio? Yeah. Or do I want to be more creative of how I'm engineering? Sure. and sometimes it's kind of like you can't totally have both as much as you want yeah there have to be sometimes trade-offs with it and i think for myself i at least for this stage because also you don't have to make decisions that are forever like i don't know about forward planning totally great but i know about like chapters and i think for this chapter i kind of really want to go back to being a craftsman yeah you know and that's what i kind of missed like i'm in the the wood shop smelling the wood, you know, covered in wood chip dust.

40:58Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're going back to the locker room. You're like, oh, I like that smell. Yeah. The must. Yeah. It's like, oh, man, what if I put this jersey back on and get back out there with the boys? Yeah. It does seem like you're kind of, yeah, you're going back to the roots. Why not go back to Gin Lane? Why create a third, you know, sort of company? Well, Pattern Act, we hired Gin Lane. We sold Gin Lane into Pattern. And so it was the equity that we had, but it also was the IP. So Gin Lane still is functioning and functional as a name and an entity and a domain and a social handle under the ownership of Pattern.

41:37And so I wanted to pay homage to Gin Lane, but kind of create something anew. And Little Plains is the name of a road and a beach that intersects the road and the beach Gin Lane. And it was the name of one of our conference rooms. So there's a lot of like, for the people of Gin Lane, they're like, oh, it makes total sense. Or the people that are from my hometown, that's all I care about too, you know? Yeah. And I love that you always bring in your mother's artwork. That's a big part. So she did the sketches, like what? And she also worked on pattern branding. I think again, it's like Nas and his dad, who's a musician trumpet player, right?

42:17And then he gets on records, you know, and he's on Life's a Bitch and like other ones. Like, I think that's kind of cool. And maybe when you're younger, you don't want to be under the shadow of your parent or parents or something and you push away to go do your own stuff. But as you get comfortable later in life, you know, like, I now talk to my dad all the time. We live next to each other. Like if I can just be helpful with his landscaping business, we can talk as like two adults, which is kind of crazy. Yeah. And with my mom, like she's not a business woman. She's just a pure artist. And so I'm constantly hiring her for projects that I'm working on for Little Plains, which also I think sets the tone that I'm trying to be really artistic with branding projects that I'm doing.

43:02And so she's kind of like my spirit animal or North Star. and we work really well together. I was going to say, how is she as a freelancer, as a vendor, you know? Do you, you know? Particular. Yeah, yeah. Challenging. My mom would love for me to hire her. She does calligraphy and I thought about it. I was like, oh, maybe she should do some lettering and maybe she and I, you know, we haven't... If your mom's listening. Yeah, yeah. Joni, my mom is immediately after this interview, she'd be like, oh yeah, I heard you're interested in hiring me for a project. That's cool that you have that background too.

43:36Yeah. She's been painting because she retired. So maybe I should bring her in. Get her on in there. Yeah. Get her on some branding projects. For Shine with a Y. Yeah. It's a beverage brand. Wake up every morning, rise and shine. That's it. It just writes itself. So before we get out of here, we got to talk about the 10 design commandments. So you're back into design. You've always been designing. Yeah. So you got a rough outline here. And it's not rough. It's very thorough. But I want to go. Let's go through it one by one. Yeah. First one, hierarchy of needs. Design is about making things work well for people.

44:10That's a quote from Don Norman. Design is the marriage from form and function for practical purposes. Know what your user needs. Yeah, I mean, I think I was inspired by the 12 principles of animation by like the seven dwarves or whatever they're called from Disney, you know, that were like the original like animators with literally Walt Disney, the person. Yeah. As well as the famous Notorious B.I.G. song. Yes, of course. 10 cracks in hand. So I was just kind of thinking, and you know, when you guys reached out for this podcast, you've had some really great design thinkers and designers on it.

44:46I thought it could be something interesting that hopefully people listening to will like disagree with or agree with or engage with. Cause I think everyone has like their own thoughts or principles. So I was kind of just like the number 10 I've done for pattern, like, you know, the 10 step guide to D to C, et cetera. And it still kind of gets views and shares on Medium. So I just thought like when you mimetically reduce things down, there's something that makes it easier to engage with, even if people don't agree. Kevin noticed. Yeah, you do love a group of 10. Yeah. He loves a list of 10. Enjoy daily life or pattern, you know, but again, people love that it got shared a ton.

45:24And I think it's just like a simplification from it, you know? So I put stuff in kind of an order of operations to think about that I was like, what do I go through as a process? Because the difference between a Michael Jordan and a Steve Kerr, Steve Kerr can be a great coach because he wasn't as naturally talented or gifted as Michael Jordan. And he had to work really hard and can better empathize and articulate it where a Michael Jordan is just like, works super hard, but it's just so insanely talented that these things come to him that are so in the moment that are they're hard to uh tell or to empathize with yeah and sometimes i like to try to think i'm like michael jordan in the moment of flow but i also and i'm talking i want to talk like steve kerr yeah i think about coaching all the time like i watch so many documentaries hard knocks like literally all of my main inspiration for being a leader and and a boss comes from coaches and a lot of coaches they were players yeah right like Like Andy Reid is the one who said like, you know, be yourself.

46:28Yeah. There's, you know, the standard is the standard. And he's like beat the Bengals too, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Run on third down. No, it's like, no, I think coaching, like designers are all coaches, right? Like we're all coaching other people. We're helping people. We make things. But of course, like we're always, you know, there's as much as about communication and about telling people why they should care about things. like I guess in your design commandments like the first one it's like what does someone need and what do we need to convey yeah like I think that's step one yeah that's right that's step one you can't well you shouldn't I don't think you should start designing or communicating something if you don't understand Maslow's hierarchy of needs what do they need and in my opinion there's no good or bad design there's just effective and ineffective design design is an application art.

47:21So it's art that has an application. It means it has to do something. Yes. Right. Art doesn't have to do anything. It can make you feel something if you want to, but design has a functional service. I like this. This is fun. Right. Yeah. Now we're just battling, battling with design quotes. No, because it's for people to understand things. My centerism is designs for people, not products, right? Because people come here and they're like, I want to learn about, tell me, you know, I want people to know about how great my ice cream is. Yeah. And I'm like, there's a lot of great ice creams out there.

47:56Yeah. Why is your ice cream different? Yeah. Why? There you go. What role does ice cream play? You're following rule number one. What role does ice cream play in people's lives? Uh-huh. You know? Why do you eat ice cream? Ice cream, you scream. Yeah. We all scream for ice cream. Yeah. It's about celebration. It's about family. Yeah. There you go. It's about winning a football game. That's why you get ice cream. If Joe gets the Lombardi, he's breaking out the ice cream. Oh, yeah, of course. You notice Kevin is trying to look more and more like Joe Burrow. I don't know if you could say. I saw it.

48:24Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's his style icon. He brings a picture of him to the bar. Joe's like Hobbs from Calvin and Hobbs times Joe Burrow. Yeah, he's the coolest guy. I mean, I understand why. I mean, I'm a Giants fan, so my quarterback situation ain't better than yours. Number two, contrast and focus. so in nature you these are your words so do you want to read these or do you want me to read them i wrote just like notes to self i mean this is i just thought we'd have some fun with it being unpolished but like uh i put you have i was like yo in nature you have zebras and you have chameleons that one rocks that was my favorite in design sometimes you want high contrast like for legibility for safety you know and then sometimes you want softness or a lack of contrast as an example would be interiors or fabrics where you can have high contrast of ones, but I'm just thinking of like a skim's house, you know?

49:19And contrast tunes up or down where we focus. So it's incredibly important to understand that as I put the second rule and contrast creates focus. Bars, you know? So I actually went through these and I wrote my own thoughts on them. So I'm going to just read my notes already. Spit like in the basement. He's big tigga. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah. Ready for this? Everything is relative. Okay. Something only looks big next to something small. That's why you can't tell how tall someone is on Zoom. Yeah, that's true. Something bold only looks bold next to something thin. Things need balance and context to be understood.

49:59Hmm. Damn. That's rule number two. Contrast and focus. I think we could put a, would you say the last word context? Context. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. This is, I think this is the contrast of context helps you to see what to focus on or how to focus on it. Bars. Number three, color theory. I put like each primary color has a mammalian root in what it conveys. You know, for example, blue and green can exude life and safety. A lot of, you know, people say that like we're from the water and it's aquamarine and, you know, there's the plenishment of if you're out in the savannas and you see something blue, it can be an oasis or it's green, it's health, right?

50:44You know, and red can be danger. But it also, if you know anything about like fast food, you know, reds and oranges are, they trigger you being, wanting to eat. They make stuff kind of like delicious and umami in your mouth. White can allow like projection and clarity, safety and peacefulness, but it can also be like, can make you go like crazy, you know, and black absorption, depth, infinitude, but wonder mystery. And purple is a fun one, like royal and wealthy, but can be mysterious, spiritual and calm. So there are practical applications. Like a fun fact is like orange has the highest contrast on the primary pinwheel with blue.

51:26I didn't know this until I read your commandments here. That's why they use orange for water safety devices. So, right, there's a mode of things that color can do immediately, but there's also very practical applications. Sure. So, you know, I put like color theory has both practical and emotional design implications. I had nothing to say to this one. I just said colors matter. So no, you're right. And I do think color theory is something, especially when it comes to branding and we talk about it a lot. It's like something will look so different if you just change the background from white to black.

51:58Well, I mean like, you know, you're kind of like famous soda cans and stuff. There are some associatives with it that are what the ingredients are. But part of the brilliance is them all lined up together with one color palette kind of hue running across it. Yep. It's funny. We actually were super inspired by painters by looking at sort of how colors blend and how they... We didn't necessarily want to depict the actual fruits. we want to just the feeling and the flavors so thank you um chaos versus order is number four yeah like this is one where like a lot of people are like you know like god doesn't paint in straight lines and like there's there's so much like symmetry and harmony in nature and we associate as humans you know oh this person's beautiful usually there's a higher degree of like symmetry to their face or proportionality to their body and in one in one sense in a classical sense you could be like artists that are learning you know perspective or they're trying to design stuff which is harmonious and sound and thus timeless there's also a school thought which i put that's like punk and anti you know where you want to break that on purpose like you you want to have anti-harmony and in whether it's you know implicitly or explicitly like bruce lee style like you got to know the rules to break them, right?

53:18So I think it's good as a designer to understand that nature provides a lot of a blueprint for what is harmonious and symmetrical that we're attracted to. If you want to go down that route, rules of thirds, you have negative space here, you know, this matches up and this is balanced. And sometimes you want to fuck with it. If you want to create something that's uncomfortable or attention, and both of those are really valuable to understand. I'm sure you've read the book Hitmakers. I think about that a lot about how things need to be familiar and surprising. And so like all the great music, all the great movies that has sort of skyrocketed were breaking some sort of rule, but they were also following other rules in an effort for people to get it.

54:00And I think about that a lot when we do work where it's like people need the context that it is a soda. Yep. So, but you know, it's in a can. So it's a, so you know what I mean? So you get that, but then you can kind of break it by taking all the soda sort of rules off of it or other products that are sort of like, you know, liquid death breaks the rule of it, you know, sort of looking like beer or things like when you break the rules, things stand out. So people don't pay attention to things that don't break some sort of familiarity that people have, but also things that are too chaotic, people don't have context for.

54:35So they can't place it. Too much chaos can be like David Lynch on a bad day. Yeah. And you don't like, people don't, like they just don't. So it makes it uncomfortable. they don't get it or they can't put it place it somewhere. Well, if you think of everything like the amount of words we're talking per minute, you know, is around how much someone can intake. Even just right now in the podcast, we're not speaking too crazy slow and we're not speaking psychotically too fast. It's the same with order and harmony. You're trying to give people an absorption rate of information that they can take in.

55:08So even if it is then something unfamiliar or breaking the rules, it's probably still being delivered. it's not like yo this movie was so crazy it was 18 hours long yeah right like that's not happening i couldn't see that movie i have a hard time with two three hour movies kevin and i my my attention span is really fucked yeah and i think that's because of phone and reality television number five is choreography uh i thought this one was super interesting yeah i talk a lot in like doing websites and applications about content choreography so like you load up a website or an app you as the people working on it you can choose timing right so i always get like my my feathers ruffled when like people a site loads in it's like like a a fax machine or it's like you know and i'm like yo make it graceful yeah and then what do you want the logo to come in first like how many seconds or milliseconds do you want to load in then upon scroll this piece of text comes in, this image comes in, this goes away.

56:09Because again, to short attention span, to chaos versus harmony, you got to really be anticipatory about focus and attention. And if you have choreography, it's no different than a choreographer working on a play with dancers. Oh, the eye is going to go here for, you know, whatever, Swan Lake, you know, and then this person comes in from stage left. Yeah. Voila. Right. You know, and so I think for it's not just content choreography for digital, but if you're laying something out for spatial design or for a restaurant or interior design, or I'm coming into, you know, the office and it's like, well, this is the natural flow where people you go, right.

56:53Just like grocery stores, people go, right. You know, you go around and then you exit to the left. So understanding choreography is another one of these things, which people mistake that it's subjective. I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, my sort of, sort of thoughts here was like, you know, and I hate the term storytelling, but it is, it's very much like you, how people understand you have designs about communication. We can call this 10 steps of storytelling. Yeah. It's the best way to tell someone about something is to tell them a story, be like, Oh, this is where it starts is where it goes.

57:23And this is how it ends. And you know, the simpler that story, the better it is for people to understand. And I always say the world should be more like a children's book. That's your, that's your quote. I do like children's books. I thought that was super interesting. You had a piece of content about, you know, children's books and your mom worked on them. Do you want to just hit on that for a second? Yeah. I mean, I think it's the same principles. I was saying, I forget what the quote was, but it was saying, you know, it was like, I was doing some research on children's books and it was some quote on one of them, like a famous one.

57:55It was saying how deceptively simple it was. And I was like, damn, that's the phrase. That's it. That's good design. That's good children's books. There's life lessons that are being imparted on impressionable little humans that also probably need an adult to focus and engage and tell them to it. So it's two people as an audience. One is giving to the other. One is at a high absorption rate. The other one's at maybe a lower latent absorption rate, but there's a lot of complex narratives and story plots that need to go into how much information someone can take in. And there's usually visuals to assist the absorption.

58:35So there's a lot of things at play that are in the hungry caterpillar or good night moon that everyone knows, but you just take for granted just like seeing art and be like, oh, my kid could do that, you know, but not every kid could have the tension and understanding of Jackson Pollock's painting at the time and what it meant and the resonance of it and the tension of it. That's another like chaos and harmony, you know, 101. So I think children's books are really great for reductionary understanding of beats of information. And people need to make things simple or like, you know, people are dumb.

59:09Keep it simple, stupid. That's right. People are dumb and a lot of people aren't thinking. They're also just, you know, thinking about lots of things going on in the world. You know, there's a lot. So it's like, if you expect them to sort of sit there and be like, oh, we need to digest all this information and try to get to the bottom of it, it's like, no. It's like being selfless. It's like being self-absorbed is thinking that everything is about you. Yes. Someone is mean to you on the street or driving and you're like, why would they besmirch my reputation like that? But you don't know, maybe they just got divorced or got fired or whatever.

59:38You know, they're self-absorbed in their lives. And so I think being selfless is not assuming or presupposing. And it's saying, I'm going to slow down and make this simple for you. Yes. Because you probably have a lot going on. Yeah. And you don't care about this thing. So I need to make you care about it. Yeah. So if I make it too complex, we don't stand a chance. Yeah. People care when it's simple. That's like, that's luxury, man. That's what like a luxury experience is. It's like. How do I make it better for you? Yeah. Like how do I make life better? Speaking of experience, immersion, tactility.

1:00:08Yeah, I think for this one, I was saying like, not everything with design, I do a lot that's like digital. Yeah. But I like skeuomorphic design, new morphic, you're like recreating tactility for how one interfaces with what's behind the screen. Yeah. And that comes from principles of actual tactility and feeling. And so you can look at the cans, you know, and say, I want the light to be absorbed. I want it to be more matte versus luster versus gloss. I want to use a metal. I want to use a wood. I want to use this type of plastic coating, right? There's so much thought that goes into the materiality to provide like interplay with light and fingers.

1:00:50And even if you're not one-to-one using materials, which are going to be physically touched, those fundamentals carry over even if they're behind the screen. Yeah, we're working on a digital product and we don't do a ton of that. and we're actually running into this right now. It's like, we want to make it feel valuable and we want to make it feel not flat and give it a dimension. And because it's, you know, it lives on a screen, so it's hard to make it feel as valuable as something that lives in your hand. Yeah. And so what can you do? Get skewmorphic. Yeah, get skewmorphic. Make that background feel like a Tiffany's box.

1:01:26Exactly. Make that calculator look like a calculator, you know? And I think that's kind of where the iPhone started. and then it went, everything went flat. Yep. And now maybe we should go back to making things feel. Yeah, I'm on skewmorphic train right now. Yeah, yeah. So you would probably do a great job with this project, which I can't talk about. I'm moving on. But no, it's a super interesting thing, especially when it comes to digital products that, you know, you're replacing something that was physical. Yeah. With your phone that, you know, like, I don't know if I need this thing anymore.

1:01:59Yeah. So if it's on my phone, then it's now just a flat thing on my phone. But how can it be more than just a flat thing on my phone? And does it have value or feel the same value as a platinum Amex? You feel the heft and the weight. Perfect example. Yeah, that feels valuable. The word heft. Yeah, yeah. You throw it down on a table and it fucking clings and it shines and you look like a fucking, you know, like it's got real value. Yeah. This is another really interesting one. And number seven, gender and personification. So this is a really kind of like, I think, very topical design commandment.

1:02:35Yeah, I was thinking like, you know, in the traditional sense of like masculine feminine properties, you know, and examples I wrote were like, you know, Jafar from Aladdin is, you know, sketched out as an upside down triangle, which is a universal like animators body type for a villain. and uh you know and so if you think of a lot of like bad characters or creatures they're more top heavy in an angular sense then you know it's like the despicable me is almost like a streamlined version of that you know versus like a coca-cola bottle you know has this femininity to it because it's it's curvaceous and i said furniture has historically had a um a cool interplay of masculine and feminine design properties there's quote-unquote masculine features where it's sturdy it's durable um there's you know hardness to it right but then there's femininity to it and that it has to be inviting uh and holding of a body you know and so even these chairs we're sitting on yeah you know they have some more masculine properties and they have some really beautiful feminine kind of curves and they hurt our backs they look cool but they fucking they're terrible not very ergonomic yeah and then the other word which i always love and always struggle to pronounce is anthropomorphic okay you know which is like again like pixar style i always say like you know wally and they bring to life personalities of two trash cans yeah you know um or a little trash can kind of robot and then eva you know like uh everything everywhere all at once when there's like two rocks just kind of talking to each other and then all of a sudden you start to develop an understanding of the personalities of these rocks yeah so i think when people are coming to you and they're saying, yo, I want this product to be whatever.

1:04:18Number one, you got to understand the needs. And then as you progress forward with these principles, you can start to anthropomorphic, think about the personality or the consciousness of this inanimate object or an experience, which is not even physical. And then you can think about the gendered kind of moments with that. Yeah. At Coke, I remember when I worked on any structural design projects, they always wanted soft angles they wanted everything to sort of be soft and and friendly so especially when you're in a retail store you know something has a sharp angle on the sort of like display yep you might not want to get that close to it but if it's sort of soft and angular as and you have no problem like walking closer up to it which is super interesting and these are just like they boil down again to like fundamental principles that are hard coded into being a human yeah into being beyond a human.

1:05:12It's like a mammal, an animal. That's where I think it's a lot of fun to think about how design melts away from a surface place to just communication. So I'm a mentor at the Masters in Branding Program at SVA. And my mentee, I've been doing this for a long time. And he was here today working on his thesis. I don't know how much of this I probably can talk about. But the thesis this year is about gender design. And it's super interesting because his um his like a brand that he was assigned makes toys and so these toys tell stories about men and women and sort of to kids yeah so there's a lot of like yeah that's even a different type of like yeah and i don't mean this in like a pronouns capacity i mean it in like i don't know like a greco-roman whatever yeah nature yeah nature yeah and i just think it's a really interesting topic when it comes to design because oftentimes people are using you know this looks too masculine this still looks too yeah yeah yeah those that those things are are changing yeah people are not you know sort of necessarily like freudian or youngian or something and it's like closing your eyes and touching something and how to does it push back does it absorb in so and your uh your simple takeaways i actually i probably should have been reading here though this one is personalities and still purpose and energy yeah and i think it kind of really it's whether it's gendering or providing anthropomorphic of like an animal having a human property, at the end of the day, they're personalities.

1:06:44And I think they can provide purpose and energy. I want to see Inside Out too. Yeah, yeah. I love the Inside Out one. Yeah, I got to see it. Eight, we're rounding the corner here. Implicit versus explicit. This is another one that I thought was really interesting. Yeah, it's kind of like I said, how far do you want to lean into revealing your hand? yeah right sometimes um i say like really good design is where it's invisible and it's taken for granted sure you know but other times you may want design to be front and center sure um yeah where it it has an explicit purpose yeah for attracting and demanding attention and i think again just like to break harmony you need to understand harmony it's like if you want to be explicit, you need to know how to be implicit.

1:07:33And if you want to be implicit, you also know, you have to know how to be explicit. And I, and I, I think, um, uh, subtlety versus boldness, choose your reveal. Yeah, no. And I think for me, I like things that are, that are bold versus things that are subtle. So I'm, I'm just what I gravitate towards. Cause I think those things are, you know, more exciting, but I think sometimes mystery goes a long way in making something more interesting uh i think about kin euphorics a lot with that brand yeah it's like when it launched and still to this day like people don't fully get it they're like what the hell is euphoric what's an adaptogen the brand copy is like a bit vague in some ways i think that only makes it more mysterious like and i think not revealing yep the full like cards it's like pulling in versus projecting out yeah sometimes you want to project out yeah yo i've arrived here hear me versus other times you want to kind of show up and be like yeah i'm always like i'm here listen to me now but i i i respect the sort of yeah the emmett shine way you know yeah mysterious and alluring yeah just roll in and just be uh where do i put my stuff um number number nine man versus machine yeah like i was saying doing artwork with my mom and stuff and um you know like for cpg or packaging and stuff physical that's where i'm trying to lean into touched by a human yeah um because i think there's more dots per inch you don't have to vectorize everything and i do think it can play well where people are like oh this food brand that's like touched by hand that makes me think of it's more crafts crafty and organic and thoughtful but i put there's other times where um you may not want to get that across because there there has to be a feeling of precision and I think sometimes we don't trust if it's safety security high velocity speeds complexity oh don't worry there's a bunch of humans that are taking care of this and you're like no I actually want to feel that there is machine yeah there is automation there is an algorithm and so that's why like you may not have you know a watercolor kind of cute lovely day restaurant on scene if it's like an AI security data intelligence startup, right?

1:09:47It wouldn't make you instill total trust. But maybe it should. Well, I think, I mean, like for pattern, you know, and it was going to be, you know, when we raised capital and everything, I really wanted the logo to be touched by hand. Yeah. You know, cause I wanted that to be a through line, you know, that would bring it back to a place of humanity that it's products that are going into people's homes. I think all your companies have this principle, I would say. Yeah. I like a touch by hand component. Yeah. And I think it's funny because so much of your work is digital products. So it makes perfect sense that on the outside, it's tension.

1:10:22Yeah. And that is a principle number two, right? Yeah. Yeah. No, but it's true. It's like things people, when things are too digital tech, you know, people have a hard time connecting with it too. And I think your, you know, your, your mom's painting and sort of just like the humanity that sort of is on, you know, sort of the surface of all of your companies is inviting. Yeah. It's warm. And the last two lines of it was this can apply for structural design too. Sometimes like a bank, you know, has pillars and design elements that, you know, make it feel really safe and sturdy, you know, and other times a building has charm to it and it's a cute bed and breakfast that, you know, connotes a different feeling.

1:11:02And the takeaway was design can build connections or feel automatic. and the Orfeel automatic could seem to not be as powerful or something maybe, but sometimes you want something to feel automatic like an airplane. Sure. You just want it to feel like, oh, this flight's going to be different than the last flight. How's it flying today? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I think in my head I was just like, what if a bank was like a bed and breakfast? Like what if it had those kind of design motifs? I think it would be really cute, but then they're like, oh my God, we like lost your savings account it's like in the laundry whoops yeah yeah it's lost in that couch over there guest has it yeah yeah no it's true and but i do think fucking with those codes like i often think about totally why does every men's barbershop look the same i know like i just have a question like i'm just asking those things it's like they do look crazy yeah it's like why do we all have to get a whiskey or a beer with our haircuts i know be in this sort of like i remember i've gone to some of those and i'm like yeah actually i will have like a you know After a while, I was like, come on, man.

1:12:06It's like one on a Tuesday. Exactly. I want my haircut. I'm not trying to be in Peaky Blinders. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like we don't need this aesthetic. We don't need this vibe. So I think about that a lot where I'm like, why does all of this look this way? How can we break that down? But I do think you're right. The reason why is, I don't know, it's a men's grooming or I don't know what it says about men that they want to sort of want this. got to get the men feeling comfortable before you make them look good that's right we need a you know a little whiskey um the last one i think is probably the most important here and it's time and space and yeah two two shout outs i want to shout out a woman megan dolce who has a thing called get ripe and you know and does like coaching and stuff and i sent this list to her i was like oh i'm going on front and center and i want to try to get it right and i was struggling with the takeaways so she helped me with some of the takeaways um so thanks to her And then time and space, again, back to Tim Barber, who I work with, he always loved this phrase.

1:13:06He probably has bought 10 different variations of this for URLs, but he's always been really interested with like the notion of time and space. And what I kind of wrote, you know, is we said earlier, design is an application art and it has like a function. But I also think the function, if you can get to stage 10, you can really tap into some stuff, which is pretty cool. and you know I put as designers we are creating new experiences journey moments and worlds where do you want your user to go and to be in the past in the present in the future first person immersed and pulled in or third person omnipresent observing there is an invisible NUE of dimensionality to design that is advanced but important and the takeaway is design is a gateway to deeper exploration.

1:14:00So if you 10 design commandments start and understanding the need and you get to 10, that's like, you know, when they make you hold the buckets in the Kung Fu film to get to the top of like the temple and then you deserve it. Yeah. Well, I guess we deserve it. I think we should, you know, I guess they should live online or something because I do think they're, they're, they're so smart and they're so interesting. And, you know, I just am so thankful that you came in with all this material and now I know that there was someone else even working on it you know giving some some some ideas and some advice you know my thought about this one which is you know sort of what I say a lot is like brands are a reflection of culture and culture is a reflection of brands so it's like everything we do kind of going back to the idea of context is like something sometimes are too early or too late because people don't have that reference for it they don't understand it and I think for your work I feel like kind of doing you know sort of my research here it's like you seem to always be ahead of where people are going a little bit and i think the best design helps people understand the future but like brings it to today and says here let me let me make it like a children's book and like what's that designer raymond something from like 1950s he uh like oh man he had all these cool phrases and stuff but he was a master at designing the future that was accessible it's like most he has like this really cool acronym gosh darn it Raymond Lowry Raymond Lowry yes yeah Raymond Lowry like acronym or something I have some you know I have access to the internet here yeah but there's like a really great acronym about like the adjacent next essentially I know the adjacent next I think that's like Stephen Johnson the writer phrased that but he was Raymond Lowry was all about how do you and you know 1950s kind of like I was working on a design project recently and the kid was like yo eminem trying to understand your futuristic take on this do you want it to be like futuristic now are you talking about like 1950s futuristic and i was like 1950s futuristic because that was this time where like we could it seemed like we were going to do everything and anything you know and you had to start making people comfortable which is kind of going to happen i think right now a little bit with like real ai stuff is like, things are going to change in the years to come.

1:16:19And we're going to have to get comfortable and also make each other comfortable with some new models and paradigms and ways of experiencing and navigating reality. Yeah. I mean, the best quote I found was design is too important to be left to designers. That's a Raymond Lowey bar. But no, I mean, I think you're right. We're entering into a very interesting moment for design. But I think the principles stay the same. You know what I mean? I think that we'll have new tools. We'll have a lot of things that, you know, we will need to better understand because I think it's, uh, it's moving fast. And I think at the end of the day, Brian Collins, uh, another mentor of mine has a great quote that I always say, which is design is not what we make, but what we make possible for others.

1:17:04And I think that idea that we're still just, yeah, trying to create this experience or this journey and to pull people in and to help them explore or make and give them the tools. I think that's ultimately what we're doing. And so thank you for coming in here, man, and dropping all these bombs. I mean, to be honest, this is by far the most informative and educational piece of content. Trying to bring the heat. No, I know. I know. I know. Most people, they just come and they're just like, what do you want me to do? And I'm just like, sit there and just talk to us. Emmett, thank you so much for doing this.

1:17:41You're an absolute legend. And honestly, I want people, we didn't even touch on any of the amazing things, obviously, that Emmett has done. So go research, go check out his work because Emmett is a hero of mine and just a great guy and just showing that, you know what, there's a way to do all this and just be a standup dude and just try to help other people and make cool shit and just follow your gut. Yeah, thank you, Alex. Thank you, Kevin. And to everyone that is designing and listening, thank you. And hit us back, engage with the podcast and online if you like, agree or disagree with these commandments.

1:18:15Like, comment, subscribe. Yep, yep. We'll see you next time. Peace. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. It's the 10 crack commandments. One, two, two, three, four, five. Man, can't tell me nothing about this car. Can't tell me nothing about this crack. It's weed, my hustler, niggas. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Niggas on the corner. I ain't forget you, niggas. My triple B, niggas. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. I've been in this game for years It made me an animal, it's rules to this shit I wrote me a manual, step by step booklet For you to get your game on track, not your wig pushed back Rule number uno, never let no one know How much dough you hold, cause you know That cheddar breed jealousy, specially if that man fucked up, get your ass stuck up Number two, never let em know your next move Don't you know bad boys move in silence and violence, take it from your highness I done squeezed mad clips at these cats for they bricks and chips Number three, never trust nobody, your mom's a set that ass up Properly gassed up, hoodie and masked up, for that fast buck She be laying in the bushes to light that ass up Number four, know you heard this before, never get high on your own supply Number five, never sell no crack where you rest at I don't care if they want an ounce, tell them bounce Number 6, that goddamn credit, get it You think a crackhead paying you back, shit forget it 7, this rule is so underrated Keep your family and business completely separated Money and blood don't mix like two dicks and no bitch Find yourself in serious shit Number 8, never keep no weight on you Them cats that squeeze your guns can hold jumps too Number 9, should've been number 1 to me If you ain't getting back, stay the fuck for police If niggas think you snitchin', they ain't tryin' listen They be sittin' in your kitchen, waitin' to start hitin' number 10 A strong word called consignment, strictly for live men, not for freshmen If you ain't got the clientele, say hell no Cause they gon' want their money, rain sleet, else no Follow these rules, you'll have mad bread to break up If not, 24 years on the wake up Slug hit your temple, watch your frame shake up Caretaker to Jamaica When you pass, your girl fuck my man Jacob Heard in three weeks she sniffed the whole half a cake up Heard she suck a good dick and could hook a steak up Gotta go, gotta go, more pasta bake up Word up, uh Crack King Frank, what's up?

1:20:50Four, five, six One, two, three, three, three Four, five, six One, two, two, three, four, five, six One, two, two, three, four, five, six 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

1:21:35Thank you.