A Breath of Fresh Air: with Alex Tan and Abraham Campillo of Mouthwash Studio

12:10Alex Tan:people were like oh these guys probably came from like you know a big agency and they were handed all these projects i was like they're quite the opposite yeah that doesn't happen you don't like

12:20Abraham Campillo:leave an agency and they're like yeah just like take work with you right i don't know so waka waka is that the project that like puts mouthwash on the map a little bit is that kind of how it goes you tell us i think so i mean i again i saw the sick case and alex and i were talking about a little bit before we started recording like this mutual love of actual source and sort of like Ben went to school with them, yeah. Yeah, and just sort of this, like, at that time, this is, what, 2018, 2019, whatever, just, like, they are in, you know, sort of doing some really just awesome merging of bookstore and merch and agency.

12:54Abraham Campillo:and it just, I don't know, sort of set, it was a really important influence for me. And then I feel like, yeah, seeing you guys out of LA and then sort of the Waka Waka and sort of just like the way in which everything, you guys were sort of, yeah, blending a traditional agency with cultural sort of experiences and other things.

13:17Alex Tan:Yeah, I think the Waka Waka project, if I can glaze you for a little bit, is is like is pretty monumental and pretty um indicative of the type of company that we are today in which like abraham was able to like recognize this generational talent and shen okuda who's a furniture designer based in la he's like really great at furniture design and like he's like 50 plus yeah he's like in his 50s loves like furniture he's an amazing talent but like brand was never a thing for him and never needed to be because it was or who knows what need actually means it's like working with someone that's just like so product focused yeah like the product's amazing but then you're like dude let me help you yeah so so abe was able to recognize the opportunity right and you know he brings in ben to be like okay we should redo this website and like the images that shin was taking of of his chairs were just like iphone in front of the garage and they were great but like they weren't going to work inside of a website and so abe took it upon himself to like re-photograph all the chairs so that it would work in the website and And the same with like the copy and like the full experience, like not just like making the design work, but like what does the dev feel like?

14:24Alex Tan:And like brought on Tim, who's like one of the best developers. And so that like model of like, we get asked to do one thing, but like what does the whole world and the whole experience look like, I think is like so true to who we are today. And it has been - Regardless of budget or regardless of like anything, it was just like a standard. Like it was the beginning of that, where it's just like, oh, that's a standard of like every project. Yeah. And make it look like a million bucks no matter what. It has to be a case study.

14:49Abraham Campillo:When I think about your work, it's really interesting to hear you talk about that because it does, again, it is what I would call sort of like the next generation of like web design meets branding in a way that it's like very much feels like it's informed from the internet. But like not, you know, you bring those sort of sort of stylistic and sort of intentions to the visual identity system that works in, you know, sort of feels like it comes from the Internet. But it also sort of then becomes the whole world of it. And you guys have done this for so many brands and so many, obviously, amazing projects.

15:23Abraham Campillo:I don't want to get too into, but like, you know, Seed and Airco and these brands that just like feel fresh, which, again, the mouthwash name really fits. But then it's like it does feel like it comes from like a web or Internet sensibility, but then informed by it. But then and it just like I guess like, yeah, really sets the tone for what mouthwash in my brain is and now has all sorts of copycats and people doing the mouthwash thing.

15:51Alex Tan:But I think that's always like I used to look up to like experimental judgett. Yeah, for sure. and like i was always like super i know ben was too but like and and i think we all have different influences but like they were like a generation above us yeah or before us and i was really like impressed just how they were able to consistently like world build around the same typeface it's just like it was just like you know and it's funny because then we started doing a lot of them people would call us the suiz agency yeah suiz studio and it was like because we use suiz and i was like it's funny you guys yeah but it's it is true it's just like you can use like the the same tools or the same uh typeface i think i get more excited about like the world around how you use it and like i think that that becomes interesting to me versus just like what yeah of course yeah i was

16:42Abraham Campillo:thinking i was talking about this yesterday about jin lane who also sort of created in that sort of like 2010s like this sort of like sort of sensibility between internet and brand and you know, Emmett and all their work for brands like Warby and Sweetgreen and sort of like Quip and like all these like brands that were really reinventing DTC or inventing DTC and what that visual language looked like at that time. I feel like you guys took it and then ran with it in the last 10 years, really. And it's super cool to sort of see. And what, yeah, I guess like what, so the podcast and the magazine, those things, you're just like, okay, now we have Nike, right?

17:19Abraham Campillo:Like, how does that start to like change the way you guys think about business? Because you also hired, like, I imagine lots of people, opened up an office.

17:27Alex Tan:It's funny to just continue the story of where we were at, like with the podcast magazine, launched the podcast magazine. There's, you know, it was doing like stuff with like Waka Waka. We start, there's like a buddy of ours that lives here in Greenpoint, Solomon Lighthome is a director. And we were just like, it was the same strategy, like find people that are like really good at what they do and just like help build a world around what they do really well. um and then uh the day everything changed is when the goat mackey saturday um put out a tweet he put out a tweet saying i'm looking for a small group of creative people that like help on a long-term project and abe is like i'm gonna reply to this and so he did and you know all of a sudden we're like talking to mackey you know just hop on a call and then he's like what he's like didn't know who he was like i mean kind of you know knew who he was elevator pitch work but yeah we just pitched them and uh he was working on this project at the time um called daddy which is like a direct consumer men's fertility product okay um and that was our first client and it was a big enough retainer for all of us to quit our jobs and that was the day that we quit and but it also was a huge success like sold for like 100 sold 100 million to a row health and wow it also just like reinforced the like hey i think we could do this like you know it's like yeah i think we're pretty good at this you know design thing like let's try that wave i was so scared i like it it was like let's do it and i was just like dude like are we ready for this you know all this stuff yeah it was like i mean i'm a huge risk taker huge risk wow what's that like just gamble all the time no i think it's man i think it's when you grow up poor which i did and uh you know not to glamorize that but i think it's like you take everything as like a plus you never you're not entitled to anything so it's like if i if i get it great if not i i'm comfortable with that because that's what i that's why that's what i grew up with so like i think i've always just looked at like everything as a bonus uh and so for me it was very natural to be like let's just go all in like let's just it's like it's if we fail we fail but like i don't want to like you know no offense keep working for other people's dream i think it was like really important for for for us like to like because i think the talent was there it was more so like just having agency of like the type of work in the process i think alex is like super passionate about storytelling yeah like to work with him was like wow yeah because you're a former strategist right or that's where your brain i still do strategy yeah yeah storytelling narrative strategy but you get into scenarios where it's like wow you did that and so like you just did that in five minutes it took me five hours and then he'd do the same thing and I'd be like yeah you just do that I'll just do this and then and then it worked out and then it's just yeah it was it was really awesome because when you start like you do everything yeah and then you reverse engineer like what you're really best at and I think it happened really natural same with like everyone else that we brought on Jason

20:22Abraham Campillo:it was the same thing for him yeah I mean it's gotta be great for you as someone who's you know sort of strategic minded thinking about sorry that to have someone that's like let's fucking risk it all yeah let's just go i don't have that person uh and i wish i did they're just like yo why not but i also want to give a shout out to maggie saturday because he's a friend of mine he's been on the show and it was a lot it was a couple years ago but he is one of the greats and we're still working with him amazing yeah yeah yeah he's the best man and he is like one of the most genuinely sweet amazing insanely talented guys and i feel like yeah he's he's sometimes like he's he's quiet sometimes but i like he's out there killing it right now oh man and i mean

21:01Alex Tan:we owe him so much too i mean without i mean he took the risk on us you know i mean like it was

21:06Abraham Campillo:yeah i love that and so he was like you he just you just responded to something that he posted and you're like hey we're four people that are just kind of ganging up together to do design yeah we had no formalized business or anything but it was also like designers right it was it

21:20Alex Tan:It was also like, I don't know. I think it was prime for like social media and like they just wanted like someone that understood the internet. And I think we were kind of in that position where, you know, whether it was the suggested user stuff or the, you know, basic agency stuff. I think it was like a good mix of that where he was like, fuck it, let's just see where it goes. It also wasn't a huge investment for them at the time. But yeah. But it was life changing for us. Yeah. yeah yeah so you guys were like oh we're all quitting our jobs and this is yeah we were kind of like hey can you guys meet for like can we have a meeting on monday and i was like i guess i gotta like tell my job i can't go to work anymore yeah i'm that realization setting

22:04Abraham Campillo:in i'm an entrepreneur now yeah i have a studio owner at one point you were like okay we're gonna use the mouthwash name and that's gonna become the name of the studio quickly we always knew

22:11Alex Tan:yeah we were we were using it okay like like the slack was already set up yeah yeah you know the Slack was going, it was buzzing. But it wasn't a company.

22:19Abraham Campillo:It was just more like a...

22:20Alex Tan:It was kind of like a group of friends doing some stuff. And then it was just like, oh, let's just throw that LLC at the end. Sounds kind of nice. Let's make this official. And then we had this accountant that just messed up our taxes. No, we don't want to go there. We don't want to go into that.

22:33Abraham Campillo:But I do imagine there are some complications of having a studio with four friends that own 25%, maybe potentially each of this company. And how that works from accounting standpoint. And now that your client list is Apple, Airco, Combs de Grasso, Coinbase, Google, Nike, North Face, like, holy shit. Yeah. Like this thing really escalated quickly.

22:58Alex Tan:Yeah, totally. And I think going back to the model of like the Waka Waka thing was like, we don't really pitch on work. Like we just try to like take every opportunity that we get and make it look as best as we possibly can. and that has worked for us in terms of giving us like just leverage and like like creating this desire for people that want to work with us and like there's this relationship kind of already in the room where it's like hey we really appreciate and love what you guys do and it's like made for really great work as opposed to like proving to somebody that you're the right person to work on something you know what i mean yeah um because there's so many good designs to just i think sometimes it's like a compatibility thing it's just like it truly is like hey we we know who we are we know our process like i i don't want to like work on it if it's not the right fit

23:46Abraham Campillo:like i i it just feels like pulling teeth i don't know it's all about relationships and i always say like we're not the only design studio in brooklyn like there's one across the hall and they do great work amazing genuinely like uh you can go to them and they will do a bang up job on your brand it's just a matter like do you want to work with like me and kevin and our team or do you want to work with that group and those people and i think that's the difference and so i think um it really does come down eventually to the people because there are so many agencies that can work at the highest level you know not everybody can but at a certain point you are picking um people yeah i think absolutely the relationships that come with it i guess what you know waka waka seems like again the first one the saturday project but then like what's like the first project where it's like holy shit big giant company that we like i think it was like working

24:38Alex Tan:with yeah nike was the big one um the the folks over at instrument kind of brought us in on some stuff as like you know we were kind of working with their team on darshan yeah darshan phillips who's also like oh him so much as well brought us in took a risk on us i was like an instrument employee for like eight weeks like as a mouthwash employee all this stuff you know um but yeah like all in good faith like made some friends and like a producer at nike like hit us up for you know some other stuff that they had and it happened to be at the same time that a creative director had just started there her name is jane chung who also owe so much to and i mean she just like really opened up the floodgates for us was just like bringing us on for so many projects like there's so much trust like it was truly just amazing what it's funny like having these conversations now and like just sitting here being grateful for all these people like changed your life yeah and then also doing it back to other people now yeah there's so many people that we've brought on to like you know on recent projects like you know that are starting their own studio and they were like damn i kind of believe in you like i want to help in any way

25:42Abraham Campillo:yeah yeah yeah also i really uh i love when this show can actually help uh young designers and you know sort of uh it's really hard out there it is really hard out there but one thing that you know you just said which is really amazing it's like you were working at mouthwash your company that You just quit your job. But then also we're working with instruments, another design studio, doing work with them while you had your own company. And we had the same thing. I was working for a company called The Robot Company. It's owned by LeBron James and Maverick Carter. And I was doing New Balance work with them, with like one of our designers.

26:18Abraham Campillo:And it's just like in those early days, you kind of have to do that kind of stuff because you're just trying to get work and do cool stuff. and it's sort of like you are a freelancer but also an agency and that's how this stuff gets to where you guys are today i don't think people talk about that at all that stuff enough you know i

26:35Alex Tan:don't know if i've ever told you know we've told a few people but like yeah there's like things that we had to do long before mouthwash is the studio that it is today you know we're not gonna put it on like i don't know yeah we're like yeah no it's but this gives us the opportunity to do it i love

26:49Abraham Campillo:that though because it's it's real like you don't just like wake up one day we're like we're mouth wash and we just like put up this giant fucking storefront and be like we're sick look at all our fucking awesome brands look at our cigarette cases y 'all have to grind for this view yeah it's how it looks though on the internet it looks so easy and i just like again it just looks like

27:07Alex Tan:it just like happened over no that's just not how it happened our first like office was in a warehouse in skid row oh yeah yeah yeah yeah it was crazy and it looks super sick though like when

27:17Abraham Campillo:you see yeah this is the one little corner yeah yeah yeah and you have that sort of storefront Cause like, you know, the guys from order down the block and they have that sort of bookstore in the front and they're on the street. And I've always, and actual sort of same thing where I was like, how sick would it be to have like a design studio in the back and like a sandwich shop in the front? I've always had these ideas of like maybe a boat day. Like a ghoul. Yeah, exactly. And then I was like, and then in reality, I don't know if it's as cool. We talk about it sometimes they're like, yeah, man, people just walk in here and they, they just like, they think we're a bookstore.

27:46Alex Tan:That would happen a lot at our second, like Chinatown office. Yeah. They would just knock on the door. it's really fucking annoying because you're like think like peak locked in and then like someone's just like you're just like can i get mouthwash yeah how much does the logo cost yeah how much does a logo or they'll drop off applications that was just like dude not this way there's better

28:08Abraham Campillo:ways yeah because that like does look very cool on the internet to have like a design studio and a brand and i feel like you guys have done such a good job of that of being like we're more than just a studio that does work obviously that's where it starts and then like the other things that you guys so research is something that you guys do you put out and sort of show like just things you guys are fucking around with and then you guys have found your way back to the magazine because you i imagine stopped doing the magazine as the client work took priority yeah i think it's

28:37Alex Tan:like full circle in the sense like the the appetite was always there i don't think the maybe the environment was primed for us to do it because we were so focused on like I don't know growing mouthwash and then we had an amazing team that like then helped make it even better so someone like Valerie who's ACD at the studio really has a passion for editorial and like could drive a lot of it and so I think that really was like a big reason why we even did it and like um I think it's way better than it was before you know I would hope like 10 years past you know you learn some things but I also think like because so like so much of our work is like tech driven that we were like like thirsty or craving for like print editorial like like you're you're not vibe coding you know a magazine no you still you still have to like go to InDesign and like you know really like it's tedious work but I also think like the energy that it takes is also why you appreciate and love it so much also just working with like beautiful image makers like i i love that shit like i just like that i could do that every day and and be happy which we have i think we've been waking up going to work with our friends and working with really talented people i think the magazine just doesn't feel like work it just feels like i don't know you're kind of like you're i don't know it's like uh i don't know it's like when you're in like a runner's high it's the same thing yeah yeah i think all the verticals that we work on and it's kind of like this ecosystem of products um you know in some shape or form like we have the cafe down the street from the office in la but it's funny because you know you like build these relationships with these photographers to shoot editorial and then like oh that was a really great workflow like do you guys want to come on for this commercial project that we're working on um we're doing a production for them um do you want to go to the cafe if you're in town like there's i think the thing that we're trying to build is like a model of like circularity in which like people can interact with us and collaborate with us on like multiple different levels and just like share experiences with each other and sometimes that's like a paid commercial client and sometimes that's like let's do this thing because it's fun and sometimes that's like let's just have a couple bottles of wine tonight because we can and um we always say like you know the world runs in relationships and like everything that we do is like in favor of fostering that relationship with like collaborators or clients or friends so how do you guys like in terms of

31:05Abraham Campillo:your clients like i feel like they um you know sort of the thing that they have in common i believe is that they're sort of brands influencing culture they feel like they're you know sort of not necessarily an industry obviously i feel like they're you know sort of web forward in some ways but a lot of them have now you guys are it's it's not just web sort of work it's really sort of identity work and so how do you guys think about sort of like the mouthwash kind of client and like

31:30Alex Tan:the type of work that you guys like to do i think they like have to appreciate the like holistic like view i think they have to like really care about not just the thing i think my least favorite like potential client is the one that's like i just need this one thing and like do the fucking thing and i'm just like no so yeah i i like really appreciate like people that are like hey i'm really curious how you did that like how would that look for this industry or like for you know our our brand i think that that's a lot more interesting of a brief for us um and it allows us to work i think every project we just want to work together so i want to i want to have strategy i want to have design i want to have technology i want to have like art direction taste like all that stuff otherwise like it doesn't i don't know it doesn't interest me it doesn't scratch the itch and i think you work hard enough to get to the point where you can kind of be selective and i think we've we've grinded it out enough to where like we can be selective and it's it's it's honestly like i think that's like what we want to keep doing like i don't know i think you get to that point you're like yeah that's that's kind of as best as it gets i mean i think we try to think of the what we offer as like a product as opposed to like an individualized like a la carte service so um the thing that we always tell people is like you know the reason that you came knocking on our door like is because we do it this way yeah you know what i mean so um it's fine if like you're just like we just need a logo yeah but we might not be the right fit for you guys because i don't think we're going to give you the air company we're not going to get you the seed we're not going to get you the fender like yeah those projects and those the way that those have come to life have been a result fender we didn't touch the logo nor should we have yeah no but it's like what do you do outside of that and i think that was like really interesting for us it's also extremely terrifying like imagine you're the you're the you're the person responsible for changing the fender logo yeah i didn't want

33:25Abraham Campillo:to be that guy yeah yeah the internet doesn't love change especially for brands that they grew up with and are you know sentimental and uh yeah but yeah i mean it's super interesting like thinking about sort of the ability to influence brands at that sort of like higher level holistically and sort of feeling like if you guys can't do that then you're not going to get the result that you guys want and then think about it as like case studies and things like that it's like you want to be able to influence the brand at a whole lot you know sort of level and if it If you don't get that opportunity or potential, then it's just not going to get there.

33:59Alex Tan:That conversation also has a consequence of like six months to a year. Sure. Like, hey, we got to really. Yeah, we're going in. We got to really align here. It's like it's like.

34:09Abraham Campillo:Is that how long your like average project would you say goes?

34:11Alex Tan:I wish. Yeah. It varies. Yeah. Yeah. I think it varies. Like some. Yeah. I like. I mean, yeah. It's like the Lululemon. We've been working with them for like over. It's going to be over a year. Yeah. We've been working them for a long time. The seed would was like a year. That was over a year. And then there's obviously some projects that would come in the door, which, and they're like, it's a sprint. Yeah, no, of course. It's a month and you're like, well, you're going to pay for it. Cause like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like it's punishment. Yeah. Yeah.

34:39Abraham Campillo:Fast, cheap and good. You know, you know, the triangle, we can't do that. Yeah. Pick two. But that's interesting. I mean, I think like a 12 month project is a, is a fairly long one. And I think we all design, you know, design studios struggle with sort of, we need it today. We need to start tomorrow. We need to get it done and like get it out of here. But it does sound like you're like, Hey, like slow down. We're, we're, you know, we're going to take, it's going to take some time here.

35:01Alex Tan:And yeah. And I think also like technology has really influenced at least the client's perception of like quality and the craft that it, and the time that it takes. We are very well aware of like all the tools and the newest things, but it's still like, it still requires a lot of time. And like I and I still think like, you know, you you put some of these tools like I don't think they beat us. Like I think I think we still need to take the time and the energy to like really think about things and and make decisions. And like, you know, is it good at copying? Sure. But like I think at the end of the day, it can't create.

35:37Alex Tan:And I think people want like something that new. And I think that's that's just the time that it takes. And, you know, we were not really focused on like being the fastest. Yeah.

35:48Abraham Campillo:I tell clients all the time. I was like, we can do it in six weeks, but I promise you it'll be a lot better if we do it in six months. It's just like, you would rather it be that way. And I know you want it in six weeks. I'm doing this for you. I promise you it will be way better if we think about it and spend our time and actually like craft it and not just rush our fucking faces off.

36:09Alex Tan:So people would microwave their child if they could. It's like nine months to make a baby, but they want a logo. they want a baby in like you know a week yeah and they want it to be good it's like you have

36:23Abraham Campillo:to live with that thing yeah also you wouldn't even know if it was good in a week you have to fucking make it and then sit with it and look at it and be like is it good maybe it's good maybe it's not you like yeah and sometimes great things happen in a week i'm not saying that they can't but it's like in in six months or four months whatever like you get the chance to push it and pretend or see if it's better or explore other things so it's like yeah i mean that taking time

36:46Alex Tan:thing is yeah people don't get it it's a shortcut i think it's a it's like a epidemic like it's just like constant shortcuts for everything and yeah it's tough and that's what people want but it's

36:55Abraham Campillo:just it doesn't exist and you guys have now built this team out to be what how many 30 people we're about 30 people that's amazing though and that's a that's a big squad and yeah and we don't a lot

37:05Alex Tan:of responsibility we don't like ever bloat size like i don't know it's like to us it's like um i mean the real flex is being as small as possible i look at the way you design your days it's like it's i admire that like i you know we have we have to manage 30 people at the end of the day we love that but like we've been very very very like uh slow to do that i think i think we don't want to we we like every person is a new communication line and i want to be available for this person i want to like really i want to know these people's families like i i don't want want to blow this thing up and i think that's just how we want to design our days that's beautiful

37:43Abraham Campillo:and then really important for people to hear because it's like yeah there's a big like size thing where people like how big is your studio yeah you know it's like like dick measuring contest and like i i just find that you know it happens to me all the time they're just like well how many people you got at center these days i'm just like and at first it used to feel like oh man i'm uh we're only eight, you know, we're only 12, you know? And then at some point I was like, you know what? Like, yeah, we're only fucking eight. Like that's sick. And like having more people doesn't necessarily mean it's better in any way.

38:14Abraham Campillo:But then also like really the reason why I've kept my business small is because exactly what you said. It's like each person is not only a responsibility, but like I want to know who they are. And I also want to make sure that I can promise to give them a good experience of working at my company. and also like yeah like you said getting to know them and helping them and if you're just doing it for the numbers and how it looks online it's like that's a slippery slope to not doing it for the right reasons and then yeah just like creating a work environment that someone i also think like

38:45Alex Tan:not everything's meant to scale yeah like i think there's some things like if it takes that much time and energy and there's like craft involved probably you know shouldn't like try to like have 200 people do that because it's at some point there's going to be a disconnect in the quality and i think we've seen other studios like do that and we were like okay we don't want to be that um shout out to them they probably you know have bigger houses than us but like

39:10Abraham Campillo:have a house wait you guys have houses yeah yeah i was just saying y 'all got houses yeah yeah yeah yeah in los angeles that's fucking sick guys um speaking Speaking of houses, you guys have an amazing office and you guys treat it, or at least from the photos I've seen, looks like a home. Talk to me about sort of the process of trying to create like a new type of space to work out of.

39:33Alex Tan:I think we just spend so much time there. It's just like, again, like you have to live with these things. And it's just like, I want to like where I work. I want to like the people that I work with. And it's like, we never like just take it for what it is. We always like challenge that. And I think even like the, our taste has changed so much. over time it's like you know that's just what we like now it may change later and everything is like a new opportunity like the you know there's new constraints like the the new york office in wsa which is like severance if i've ever you know seen it so that's why we have rugs on the walls because it's like it just that's what it needs it's just like a little you know it's a little haven in wsa that feels warm and it's like yeah uh but yeah i think we really like you know taking that opportunity to treat it like it would be like a project and and really like uh kind of build a little world around around that and like every new office is kind of like a like a project and there's a case study then where we have to like document and show it to the world it's on architectural digest you guys are doing something yeah our 150 square foot office yeah the funniest it's like pretty small that's a huge flex the funniest thing was when we did the la office people would be like oh you're you're you guys are the ones with the viral office and then i was like what about our work yeah it's like wait how did this backfire yeah yeah yeah they really like our marble you know they're like our carpets yeah even the office is like indicative again of i think the approach in general where it's like all the things especially in the la office but too in it too in the new york office where it's like all of our friends who are furniture makers and designers and object makers like there's like over 15 different things from artists that are our friends and people that we admire and um yeah it's like how do you show the world that the people that you spend time with and are influenced by like actually have impact and meaning in your life and so being able to give back to them and support their practice and yeah that's tight it's the same thing with the cafe it was just like working with people that we know and then like giving it back and giving them the opportunity where it's like, hey, you've never done a cafe.

41:42Abraham Campillo:So at what point were you like, yeah, we obviously are running this business, we have all these things, let's open up a restaurant. Let's say fuck it, restaurant. I imagine that's the best and worst decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So talk to me. Yeah, let's get a restaurant. So you guys obviously have no background in hospitality. Seen some shows. You've seen, yeah, watch the bear one. We saw the bear one times.

42:03Alex Tan:Sees the bear one. I actually saw him in the hotel yesterday. Oh, did you? Yeah, yeah. Nice.

42:07Abraham Campillo:Because the office kind of has a Mad Men vibe, like a little bit. You can see like a sort of the impulse. I still smoke and drink. Yeah. We're out there. Yeah. And so the Café Tondo is the restaurant. And so it starts as a cafe or sort of talk to me about like sort of the vision for that.

42:21Alex Tan:We wanted a coffee shop. And then from there it was like, oh, what if it was all day? And then we had like wine and, you know, small bites. And then it like really, I think, transformed whenever we added food. because the moment you add food to something then you everyone's a critic and yeah then you can be on like eater dude the craziest thing about the restaurant is like when you design like so as a design studio you like design you make the stuff you like you're making it for people who also like that stuff yeah when you want a restaurant everybody's allowed to eat and you can't tell them they're not allowed to eat or drink and so they all have opinions about what it is that you're

42:57Abraham Campillo:making it would be sick if you did though you're like hey you can't come in you have bad taste yeah we don't improve of your taste yeah start working the door you're bouncing but it's different yeah so it's so it's just like a coffee shop and you're like okay that's that seems manageable do you hire people that you knew or do you have like yeah we had

43:15Alex Tan:some friends um i mean it's the same process i think i mean building we're really good at building teams uh i think is the the through line so we want to keep doing that um i think the cafe was no different you learn a lot when it's your first time doing it i think you know knowing what i know now it's like it's it's a nine day but i i think it's yeah we approach it very similarly it's just the the difference is the you it's like an everyday thing uh we're like not in the weeds of like you know we have a gm and like they're they're the boots on the ground but we still have to like keep an eye on things and manage things and i think also spend time there like i think it's like yeah if you have a cafe you you have to go in you know every once in a while and make sure things are running the way you want it but um i i think alex said it really nicely it's like for you know if our mission is to influence culture like you have to participate it in it and i think the the cafe really is like embodies that we're just like hey we can do a bonnie and clyde branding project but let's do a party too and give them like a fucking billboard on top of the cafe and like that's special and like i think that's how we kind of wanted to design our days going back to that it's just like yeah activate it and celebrate it and have like moments where there's like physical interaction happening not just like i don't know zoom meetings till we die like i don't know no offense to zoom but like i think there's like they're big listeners all offense to zoom but it's amazing yeah the ecosystem starts to like feed off of each other

44:46Abraham Campillo:where you have furniture designer friends that help do the sort of office and then you have the space and then I imagine you take your clients to the restaurant or then you have a launch party for a brand that you're doing at the restaurant and then you're just there enjoying a beer watching the world cup and it's like it's just all part of the mouthwash universe so far that you guys are

45:06Alex Tan:just doing cool shit with the homies all the time that's the strategy the strategy in life is doing cool shit with the homies yeah just yeah I mean there's no like evil plan where it's just like it's it's really we're not trying to trap people no it's just like what are we interested in and And then we just go after it until, you know, I guess we, we die. Go after it till we die. That's the problem. Yeah. I think Mouthwash is just the people and like, we want to keep doing it together. And like, I think, yeah, it's, it's been working out so far, even as we've gotten older, like Alex has a baby, which is crazy.

45:36Alex Tan:Ben has a baby. Yeah. That's a big project. Yeah. Yeah. Ultimate case. Added to the list.

45:42Abraham Campillo:Ultimate case. Yeah. Yeah. When are you working? When are you going to drop the case? Uh, I mean, that's a really beautiful thing though. It feels like it's been quite organic, right? How it's all sort of come together and now sort of feels like this ecosystem and you can kind of come back to the magazine and now have the space and sort of business that's thriving with 30 people. What's next? Where do we go? Like, obviously, you guys don't feel like people that are, you know, sort of just stopping. And like you said, very curious of like, what's next?

46:11Alex Tan:I think we I feel like we really are happy, I would say, like doing what we do. I think I want to keep doing that and just see where it takes us. I don't think we've hit our peak. I would hope not. You know, I think I really like – I think our best work is in front of us. Like I could see us getting better. Let's give the analogy of like an athlete. I was like, I feel like we're starting to enter our prime where it's like we're not kids anymore. Like we know what we're doing. We're adults. We have an amazing team. Like we know each other so well. Like Alex, you know, like knows me so well. I know him so well.

46:43Alex Tan:And same with everyone else. It's just like I think that's like really hard to come by. And I think we just want to retain that and just see where it takes us. Yeah. Just the cure. I think the curiosity, I have no doubt in my mind something out of left field will probably pop up over the next few years, but it's the approach and the people and the philosophy and like the, this, yeah, just like kind of this relentless chase of like, what other ways can we just do something for the culture with the culture? Yeah. And so I think like to Abe's point, And it's like really happy with where we're at, but we're also, there's still some work to do.

47:20Alex Tan:Yeah. Like a year ago, the cafe didn't exist. Yeah.

47:23Abraham Campillo:Yeah. I mean, it sounds like, again, like you are letting it kind of come to you and be natural and sort of things feel right when they feel right. And it's blossomed into this really incredible ecosystem and something that really does inspire me. And so thank you guys for coming on the show because I believe that designers are incredible people and they can do all sorts of amazing things. And I do feel like you guys are setting the tone of like what a design studio can do being more than a design studio and not just being like, I'm going to sit and be on Zooms and Slack and, you know, sort of meetings till I die, trying to just make clients happy and doing the beautiful work, of course, that you guys do.

48:03Abraham Campillo:And I think that's what all of us designers geek out about. But what I geek out about is restaurant and merch and I want to go to your sandwich show stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I need a sandwich show. Yeah, yeah. all the sandwiches are named after designers i have the massimo vignelli italian sandwich it's a bad idea that's why i don't do it um but uh yeah kevin has to make all the sandwiches which is the shittiest part you know that's why i just picture like sopranos but with nice type thank you yeah that's uh listen see that's the thing all you need is like a couple good you know sort of ideas and then it just you know sort of emerges but no seriously you guys uh really inspire me and i'm super glad that we get to meet here at the studio and now friends for life and yeah keep doing amazing shit and sort of uh yeah inspiring us all so thank you guys thanks for having us and thanks for all the kind words thank you so much peace