Building Brands that Work: with Michelle Mattar

26:03and Rachel comes from this line of estheticians. I think her grandmother actually founded one of the first schools that taught people how to be them in the United States. But she had this idea to create a more express affordable experience of that. So it's 30 minutes. You know what it's going to cost. It's much more affordable and something that you can actually use to maintain your skin or solve your skin. So you come in and one of the ways that they save on costs is you actually wash your face yourself. So at most facials, there's someone like using this brush and mixing a cleanser and painting your face with cleanser and wiping it all away and that it kind of takes like a lot of time and money out of the process so she figured out how to make that a loss a lot more cost and time effective it's a dry bar of facials it is a dry bar of facials glow bar yeah yeah it works too right like you have that like familiarity if you do visit that chain or understand what that is how important are these business um white spaces to you when you're taking on a project or looking into a like Clearly you are interested in not just the design, but also like sort of what the company is doing.

27:07For everything we do, we build strategy and insights. And I think a lot of like design is a communication language. So what's so important to me is really understanding where that brand is going to fit into the world, why it would need to kind of come to fruition a certain way. What is it communicating? So, you know, take a brand like Remedy that we launched March last year, which is it's doing so well. They just got Target end caps nationwide and they're really growing really fast for a brand their size and age. Looked at that one and was like really where this fits is it's a lower cost, more accessible product that's more simplified.

27:41They're not trying to make like 15 versions of things with all these ingredients. They want to make the one version that's$15 that you can get. So that actually means understanding who that customer is, how they see themselves in the mirror, how the mirror reflects back to them with the brand and under designing it to some effect. Like, how can I look at that and say like, oh, I can attain that or that does kind of welcome me in. So for most things that we're doing, we're building those positioning insights and strategy. And I've always been really curious about that. Where it lives in the world.

28:09Yeah, that positioning. And really now brand is so equated with our identity. Like we shop brands that we kind of identify with. So what does that actually mean? Like what do our identities mean and how can a brand understand or tap into that? So when you're talking about these new projects, obviously it's under the moniker practice. At what point do you go from Michelle Matar Inc. to practice a design studio or branding sort of practice? Yeah, I first really started thinking about it late 2019 and 2020. I had all of this opportunity knocking on my door and I was saying no to so much because I was just one person.

28:50And for better or for worse, the world slowed down with COVID and I had a minute to think to myself. I looked at it all. I actually added it all up and saw what I was actually saying no to in terms of what that could have been project wise. I looked at what did I actually want to work on versus what was I saying yes to because that's what I was familiar with or capable of. And I was saying no to a lot of things just simply because of scale. And I realized I really did want to learn from some of these really large scope projects. And one of them I had said yes to as one person, which was nuts. It was all kinds.

29:23Okay. I was going to say, is it the one with like 5 million products? Yeah. Launched it with 450 products. Oh, 450 products? I said yes to that as one person and the process started practice. You, yeah, no, that's psychotic. Yeah. But I think, again, it speaks to your like sort of like self-confidence ability of like, I can do this by myself. I can build brands as good as any agency by myself, which is a fucking flex in a half. But then you're like, okay, maybe this one, 450 products, maybe I need some help. That's crazy, though. That's really amazing. And so at that point, you're like, okay, I'm going to do the studio thing.

29:59I'm going to build a practice called Practice. And that becomes, you're still the sole founder, right? But what did you start sort of like looking for as you were building on your team? I built all kinds of identities still as one person and started practice midway through the packaging. And I was looking. So production, you need help with extension production. Yeah, well, that wasn't intentional. I was just like doing things as they came or kind of thinking through them. And what I realized I needed was someone who could flex from touch point to touch point because a lot of these projects, you'll be in these really long phases and we work in phases.

30:42And I already had kind of built up my brand building practice with this certain methodology. And that's why the name practice came to be. So I was interested in someone who would be interested in kind of living in one space, like living as a brand designer for a certain period of time, but then living as a web designer, then living in packaging, interested in marketing. So I started to talk to designers and eventually made my first hire June of 2020, before I had really like publicly launched practice to help me. Was that something that was like scary to you? or was it just like, oh, no, this is where we're going now?

31:14I think I was scared of it and avoided it for a while. But once I made the decision, it wasn't scary. Yeah. But I definitely took a longer time to get there than I maybe should have. Yeah, I think that's a good lesson. Like, I do think, like, it seems really scary to have an employee. Obviously, it's very serious. You have someone's life to think about, not just your own. But I do think once you kind of, once I did hire one person, I was like, okay, this person has health insurance and they are getting paid every other week. And it starts to become more comfortable. But did you have that experience of like, what's my identity now?

31:49Oh, I don't know what my identity is right now.

31:51Michelle Mattar:I try not to think about it too much. I just know that what I love to do and I want to be surrounded by people that want to do that same thing with me. You and I, we have a lot in common, actually, I think. But I do think your practice is much more, like you said, you have a set of like methodologies and ways of working that you have been honing over time. Where do you think that comes from in terms of like your approach to branding in this sort of like strategic and organized way? I think it's just what I know works. And I've just been refining that as I go. Do you want to get nerdy and talk about what like a little bit about what that methodology is?

32:34Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Let's do it. Launching a business from that like zero to 100 like most of the projects we're working on lately don't have a name um there's a lot of if you just kind of go at it and build things as as they come to you or from a mood board there's a lot of missed opportunity to really build a lot of clear alignment and what i'm so interested in is building brands that work i don't think i would ever be known as like the designer that makes the most beautiful thing in the world but i do think one of the things that I've been trying to figure out and I'll be on like a long pursuit of is how do I build brands that actually kind of make it to scale and what, how do I refine that?

33:14So over time would iterate on my own process. And so right now at practice, we have this phased approach. Unlike most studios, I don't know how you all work exactly when it comes to, you know, client engagements, but we sign it all on at once. So no one can just hire us for a website or a package design or a brand identity. It's a total partnership. Do you ever take a project that is sort of like a brand that has been around for a little bit or they have a sort of identity system and maybe they want to evolve or they want to refresh or rebrand? I feel like so much of your work feels like it's being invented by you guys.

33:52No, we definitely do. Yeah. So we do rebrands. Usually there's a really core need in the business and that's informing why we need to so we just um launched a key study for one for kiki k it's a 26 year old brand um it's a stationary brand and now with our iphones with all these digital tools this what is an analog stationary brand really for and how can that scale um so we had to really think and pull apart like what is the future of this brand if it's going to stick around it was really beloved like a lot of people grew up loving to go to this store. A lot of people would say like, when I was a young girl, I loved Kiki K.

34:29So we had to really tap into that psychology and then reinvent it for who she was growing up and then what her life really actually looks like. It absolutely all the research and we do these huge brand audits that basically tell us the health of a brand, what's not working, what we need to fix and why and pokes the plot holes. Interestingly, they thought that they need to become more gender neutral and all the research told us you need to double down on that feminine identity how long do these projects take like you know a kiki k one but like maybe some of the other ones that are more sort of like a noodle world and you know sort of soup to nuts yeah the fastest it can really go is probably eight months considering like r &d um but most of them are a year and a half and then a brand like kiki k can take two and a half years and that's a lot of things to do it's a pie chain so on that one it wasn't just the graphic system all of the products got revamped so if you actually looked at what their offering was it was a lot of like flowery live laugh love and then that moved to this more like modern femininity that was more about fashion than it was about like outward

35:35Michelle Mattar:statements how long is your like research and development phase usually usually two months damn yeah eight months a year and a half like those are those are those are uh those are big numbers. And I'm sure like there are definitely some clients that get they're like, I want to go to launch in April, you know, and you're like, well, it's March, you know. But it's that's cool. Like, I do think that's really it's good to hear because I do think a lot of times people don't realize. But the work that we do and the new world brands, especially like they take time. And, you know, for us, like I think we often say like three to four months or four to six months.

36:13and sometimes they really take eight months but you're like that is you know 12 months is like you really are sort of spending time to build something with you know like and crafting it with purpose and I think it shows like I think that's really um I think that's it's important to acknowledge that because a lot of creative uh culture right now is about just like churning and burning and putting things out there as quick as humanly possible you you take the long road it it sounds like. Yeah. And also like on a lot of these, I'm testing the products as they come in and they'll go through 20, 30, sometimes 80 iterations of like what we're actually selling.

36:49So it's not always that it's active working time, but oftentimes we're kind of standing by on R and D. And we are, we're a part of that. Like I call it a partnership company practice, which is just a made up. It doesn't actually, I don't think that's.

37:03Michelle Mattar:Well, no, you practice. No, no, no. Yeah, exactly. You just said it's real. Cause I said it. Yeah, exactly. That's part of your practice. is practice is practice we're talking about practice you like to be involved in clearly like the business development and product development do people are like are how do you pitch that to clients are you're like hey i want to be involved as as as more than just a designer that usually just comes through word of mouth okay um so we all of our clientele has just come in through our inbounds okay we haven't gone out and like pitched one out of nowhere landed that project and usually they're coming in off of someone that's like oh you should talk to practice they're really great at this early stage stuff helping you figure that out got it um and they welcome you in because they're like hey we want as much help on the sort of product side of things are there some clients that maybe are like we don't need that or don't want that or you are you very sort of like um particular in the type of clients that you kind of bring in and like your relationship that you establish i mean sometimes it's already developed but what we need to do is build say like a science narrative for the product okay um so oftentimes we're thinking about how we take what they've built and then really position that say like there's the positioning of the brand and then there's the positioning of the product but there's also the positioning in many in many projects of the ip so we'll be working on that and then there's a little bit more of a collaboration on the project side on on those cool and one thing i read that um you said was that every person at practice works on every project at practice.

38:33Yes. Is that, where does that come from? And sort of like, how do you think that influences your work? I think these projects do take a village. Like when you're building something from that zero to 100, the more smart people in the room, the better they end up. And we all come with different perspectives and what we would shop and why. So I think it's really interesting. And I love to mentor. I often say like in our hiring process, you know, the thing I can mentor you in is to be a brand builder, which is different than a brand designer. So I like to have designers involved in strategy conversations.

39:08I like to have them think about and strategizing against how a brand system is going to work in marketing and thinking about scale and things that they might not learn elsewhere. And that we all put our heads together on what does that mean and what could solutions like that look like. That's cool. Are these designers, do they have strategy backgrounds or are they just designers that you think have smart opinions? there are designers that i think are brilliant but also i love to mentor people into it cool um so we've mentored quite a few people in strategy that are design backgrounds and how big is practice we're six people last year we were seven but that was a contractor okay cool do you think that is sort of the ideal size for you guys do you think like you have any intentions or uh plans to grow is that sort of like um well yeah what do you think um i think it's a really interesting conversation it's like a big topic of this podcast with founders it's like finding the right you know sort of size agency for you and i think everyone has a different answer for themselves so i really enjoy six i think the culture is better at seven okay um like there's a little bit more like these side conversations or things that can happen but i joke that like we're an uber excel and like i just want us all to fit in there yeah um but i think i'm i'm better at managing six people um that's good yeah i like that you do any between six and seven like that's and i think it matters because we're nine and like we were 12 and like you would think oh man that's not that big of a difference huge difference between nine and 12 like nine you could sit at a table and everyone have a conversation 12 is like you side there's different conversations happening yes and that's i think that like a really small nuance between six and seven six is like we all hear each other seven there's like maybe someone at the other end and i think it's a little bit more interesting for relationship building when you are able to have more of these like breakaways and you know these people and you know what their sort of like capabilities are and obviously like like you said they're more than just brand identity people they are thinking about things holistically like you are yeah and we have been like an industrial designer on the team oh cool yeah and you've taught them all in your sort of michelle mattar assassin ways so they're just like all little mini assassins they are mini assassins That's it.

41:18Yeah, that's how we walk into a room. We're actually also all women, so we're like a girl band. Yeah, exactly. And you all have the big sword, so you just kind of come in and just demand. Yeah, it's like a Quentin Tarantino kill bill league. That's kind of exactly how I pictured it. You were featured in Fast Company talking about the rise of the Goldilocks agency. I don't have a subscription for Fast Company, and there's a paywall. Can you just tell me what you think, obviously, the small but mighty approach, why does that feel so important to you? I think we are actually able to solve the problems because everyone's doing the work together.

41:51So we're hearing the problems. We're actively taking that forward. We don't have that game of telephone. So much of that boutique experience for clients, we meet with them weekly in a standing meeting like any team would. A standing meeting every week with your clients. And so is every member of your team on every call? Hell yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. I mean, I really do think putting as many smart people in the room together on these things. Like we have one project now. I can't talk about it in specifics, but we're taking this really huge brand and we are renaming and relaunching it. There's a really good strategic underpinning.

42:24They actually approached us for just rebranding the existing brand and I convinced them into this. Oh, very nice. Yeah, classic. Yes. That's a good move. But they can't grow as a brand because a lot of the things that the brand started on are completely shadow banned. So it's like, why would you invest so much in your brand that is not going to grow? It's just going to reach the same people but be better.

42:47Michelle Mattar:I love that sort of like, what's your appetite for change? And I'm like, I don't know, we really love our logo. I'm like, well, what have we tried to get rid of it? It's quite the teaser. I'm excited to see what brand this is. Yeah, no, I think when Center was five, six in sort of its first few years, I did think there was something really special about every person worked on every project and every person went on every call. And it's like you get to have that first row seat to everything. You're not missing things because there's sort of layers or things. It's just like, this is us. we're going to be working on your project and um it it makes perfect sense to me um but i i think yeah i just i i think it it's all about finding what's right for you i think that's kind of the thing and people have to sigh shame in in our industry and uh size each other up and be like yeah biggie and it's just like who cares like whatever you are doing fucking awesome work with your team and you know it could be a hundred or it could be six or anywhere in between or it could be two or in your case it could just be one michelle matar and she's just fucking killing it And it's like, yeah, whatever makes you happy.

43:48Yeah. There's space for all of us. That part of it I never understand when people are like competitive about we're all existing and thriving. That's see, people get real fucking competitive. Yeah. What do you think that? Why do you think those people are? What's what's what's up with those people? Sometimes I think they're looking at their own belly button. Like there's this whole world around you that's so much bigger than the industry. and if you were to stare too much into that maybe maybe it would start to feel more competitive but in the grand scheme of things it's actually a really small tight-knit community that's better together like i've i learned so much from peers that own companies yeah i mean of course and like we all do this thing and there's not that many of us and like to be honest like there's enough for all of us to eat and like that's the point many ways of this podcast like we're promoting you on our platform and sharing your work with our listeners and anyone who knows about us.

44:41It's like we, and mostly because we are interested and I want to know more. Speaking of practice, you guys do a lot of self-initiated projects. I'm always interested by that, especially because people like you are very busy, I imagine, doing all these kinds of other crazy projects. We didn't even talk about naming. How awful is naming, right? Like truly, it's the worst, right? It's actually one of my favorites. Oh, shut up. You hate me now. You love the name. Get out of here. I love it. You don't love naming. I do. Do you have a really good trademark lawyer? Yes. Do you have a process for naming that maybe makes it easier for you?

45:16So in the spirit of everyone who practice works on everything, we all do name storming together. And it's really fun. Yeah. We have this like really, it's like, it's almost like the musical chairs of name storming. Explain, please. So we have like a spreadsheet with a column and a theme. and we set a timer and so you have like five minutes to brainstorm in that column and then you move to the next one and everyone has a different color and then you just keep moving through and then we go through make selects but it's you can kind of just see where everyone was ideating that's cool yeah that's fun i like that yeah yeah i think naming is is the worst no i'm kidding i think naming can be done by anyone and i think again you can over strategize anything but i do think oftentimes it's just about you know thinking about categories thinking about sort of ideas and spaces and just putting it down on paper.

46:06Yeah. The name is just the beginning. It's just the beginning. That's what I always say, Michelle. But okay. Back to the side projects. The agency obviously does a lot of stuff that's not just brand building. Yes. Talk to us about Waste Not first, and then we'll talk about some of the other ones. Yeah. So on a lot of these early stage companies, I was often having to think about what is this going to be packaged in doing all the research on the component like no one was coming to us saying this is the package that we're using now create a label um so over the years i was just designing packaging in the way that i knew as a designer make it look good um when ritual hit scale i was really proud of that packaging and then i went to visit their offices and it was taking off and they were still doing fulfillment in their office and had designed this box that really kind of presented the product to you, but it had all this extra space.

47:02And suddenly I saw these like carts of garbage, basically, and they were things I had designed. And I had this aha moment that I was like, oh, I measured that as a successful design, but my criteria of success was very simple. So I started to do all this sustainability research when I would look into what components and what we were packaging in. And I created this massive spreadsheet that was just a Google doc. And I would send it to all sorts of people in my industry that were working on packaging and be like out here more ethical packaging suppliers things that have a smaller footprint resources for this and people were asking and asking and asking for it and i was like okay what if i just made this a website or more open source and then at practice we do the same scope of work we call it sustainability research for most every project if it's a tech project obviously that's a it's a different question um so we've kept growing it uh project by project and update it that's awesome Yeah, I'm a firm believer that like recycling is mostly a waste of time.

48:00But like, you know, the sort of way to actually influence is through sort of sustainable suppliers. And it's like a lot of companies don't know where to start with that. And, you know, especially new to world brands are like they're you know, they don't even know regular suppliers to go to. So it's like how do you get them to sort of like make those decisions? Oftentimes it's about providing them with the right resources and also sort of ones that can be at a similar cost or sort of finding ways to sort of not make the sustainable option the more expensive one. So I think it's incredible that you're like trying to solve the problem at the real root of the issue.

48:37Yeah, I think, well, one of the things I'm opinionated on, and I don't disagree with you that like recycling is kind of a waste of time. But really, like, the bigger issue there is if we think of where the onus goes, we're putting it on the consumer. But that packaging was created long before the consumer ever got it. So I was so interested, like, oh, I'm working with early stage companies. Can I make them think about this now? What does that look like? And can we actually put it back on the corporations to think about what their footprint is before it reaches the customer? And not everyone wants to have that conversation.

49:09It's actually an excellent screener in new business. Really? Yeah. Delete. They're like, what's your point of view on sustainability? And they're like, I couldn't care less. And you're like, all right, this isn't going to be a good fit for us. Well, the first 10 it is. Reduce. Wow. Kevin. Exactly. I 100 % agree. I think that's where the onus and that's where the sort of the main thrust of the work needs to be done, especially, yeah, that problem is the manufacturing. And so how do we make people be shamed into making the right decisions? Yeah. But it's also mind-boggling when it's at scale. Like if Coke reduced how much plastic it takes to create a bottle by 10%, the actual net effect of that, it's like it's more satisfying to do sustainability with companies than it is for like measure my personal footprint.

49:55Let's talk about fake brands like and just for practice. So just for practice is something that you guys do at practice where you make up fake brands. Is that sort of the thing? Like brief yourself. Like talk to me what that is. Yeah, it was just a curiosity. Like what would happen if a team of brand builders made a brand with no client? And so we like one one example was, you know, we still had to have the insight. We still had to name it. We still had to do the whole process. So for one, the core insight was like, oh, the new having kids is having pets. So what's going to happen in the future?

50:28Maybe the new having pets is having plants. So then we named a fake brand Dirt Baby. And then we imagine this like future world where everyone's like bringing their plants around and treating them like they're pets um and then what would what's that product what's that brand and then just have fun with it and be kind of ridiculous did you launch it or did you put it out there in the world yeah uh it's a website dirt.baby and it uh we designed like a backpack for plants but then also made a radio site that's all music for people's plants oh shit so you can yeah maybe you might bring this guy back i don't know a practice practice brand

51:01Michelle Mattar:and practice love that that's really smart i love that and the website looks amazing and everything looks really cool you have merch and shit yeah that link might be expired no it's it's working it's working great uh don't worry about it michelle um but yeah no i mean again do you have a brand builders like yourself like they have the ability not to just make things look good for other people and help raise money and get capital for other businesses you can do it for yourself and so do you have ambition to sort of like launch uh your own kind of businesses and go that route of practice non-practice brands yeah i have been like getting peer pressured into this oh really employees no oh employees would love to see it i think they'd be really interested in it some of the people that we've worked with like in venture i've been like okay so when's it your time now i feel yeah i feel i feel like everyone's looking at me yeah i'm add me to the list yeah when's the practice uh yeah the ink practice brands and then you have to start making objects and businesses do you i love that you feel pressured to launch companies beyond your own company like i guess it speaks to like your ability and what people how highly people think of you that's nice yeah it's like oh i have one business that does lots of amazing things is that not fucking enough but no you have to launch more companies we have one person that we work with she's incredible she's a mentor of mine and she we built ritual and remedy she's one of the investors on it so i think part of it is also she's like these ones really work so can we get more of them so i think sometimes it's just like you know that that pursuit of what does it take to get a brand to work nowadays especially it's been really fun over my career the landscape is changing so much like that is really dynamic and i'm still trying to figure that out like i will never be bored with that question um but i'm motivated by like if any of the brands that we create can knock some of these dinosaurs off the shelf and do a really crappy job that's exciting like what what would it look like if you're really in pursuit of taking down the old players and building a new norm and that hopefully the brands that care more that would be willing to do sustainability research or think about you know the why of what they're doing feels ambitious but important yeah it feels like a world that we would uh we'd all be better living in one of your ideas uh that i saw online for a fake brand was a theme park for stoners um when's that coming out oh can we make it yeah that's so sick like what's the general concept like so just log on theme park for stoners it's it's a physical space are there rides are there just weird experiences do you get weed um or does it sell weed i guess it could where where were you thinking about putting this do we have a name not yet okay maybe we could name it kevin yeah okay okay okay all right spot okay no i know okay keep talking about this idea michelle yeah uh i mean it's your idea greenland good oh yes great perfect um any day now better than flimsy world that was my idea flimsy world i don't know sorry it's your idea so michelle uh yeah i love coming up with pitch up pitch up sorry ridiculous pitches when i'm in these but um i mean everything that's satisfying like you want to like melt into a couch but also be in this amazing 3d immersive so maybe it's like couches that are on a roller coaster and i like that yeah all the foods are like munchy like everything you would want to have sensorial rooms where you can just like i love the idea of a roller coaster that has couch seats you know that's the problem with roller coasters their Seats are too hard.

54:40Michelle Mattar:A sensory deprivation river. Ah, good. Yeah, yes, that's good. Yeah, we're floating, but it's a lazy river, but even lazier. I've also wondered why places don't sell more weed drinks, and I think the answer is that you can't sell more than one. Really? Is that true? You'll see CBD cocktails everywhere that have THC in them in bodegas, but then you go to a bar and they're not offering that yet. Yeah, they need to be in the bars. That's true. It'd be amazing. but maybe they're not doing it because there's really just a limit it might just be here because i bought a sixer when i was at home have you worked on any cannabis projects no i'd love to yeah we did one it was super fun and they just made thc nutella which um genius marriage marriage made in heaven i just took one little bite and uh yeah i was sleeping in 10 minutes um other idea that you had uh are we should we continue brainstorming on our theme store Let's go.

55:35Stoners. Devices for people with long nails. Yes. Yeah. This is a major problem. Yeah. Think about a keyboard and a mouse when you have really long fingernails. What would that look like?

55:47Michelle Mattar:Wow. I have no idea. I don't ever have long fingernails. Yeah. You need to get - We should get some - I'll get you guys some press-ons. Oh, we should - That would have been a fun bit. Yeah. Could have just did it before the show. We need to reach out to Cardi B's team. I feel like she's the right ambassador. Next time you're on, we'll get press-ons. That's true. Yeah, we can just - people love when we do ASMR those are the only two business ideas do you have any other business ideas that have come out of just for practice we have a little running list that we have as a team and then sometimes like we'll just joke around and then sometimes we're more serious so who knows maybe something will actually come out of that one day this is similar to mischief that's what they do they just sit around and they come up with ideas they're way better at it up babies and like put like uh jesus water and sneakers and shit like that that's true but michelle you could do this i believe in you i mean you definitely i like is that a insight you took like with the weed hospitality market kind of like expanding now i mean it is it is a white space right it is it's not a ton like i've been reading a little bit that you know it's hot it's a market to watch you know like now everyone's going to run clubs so that they don't drink but what about the ones of us that don't like running.

57:01Where do we go? Sick clubs. Sick clubs. Strap yourself into a couch. Let's go. And they'll do the running for you. Yeah, you just move along a sort of very... I like the roller coasters at the theme park. They don't go very fast. I don't know. It's not a monolith. It's just pleasant. I want to go fast. Yeah, it's just a pleasant ride. And you're just kind of enjoying the scenery. I don't know.

57:23Michelle Mattar:I like getting high and going fast. Really? Yeah, it's fire. I don't know. Not for Michelle and I. Not at our theme park. We're just It's a chill ride, just slowly. No, I like that run clubs, you know, as a runner, I like the idea of run clubs because, of course, everyone is just lonely and wants community. But you bring up a good point. What if you hate running? We need clubs without the running. Clubs for everything. Yeah. Also, it's too much. They take up a whole sidewalk. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They're just so annoying. In practice, they're horrible. I got a good idea. Watching Reels Club.

57:56You just get a bunch of people, you sit together, and parallel playing club. There's a game I've always wanted to play where it's like find someone in the algorithm, like sit next to someone and be like, okay, this is the video they started with, and this is the video I started with. Can we find each other's video?

58:16Michelle Mattar:That sounds like a long day. Just by scrolling, tapping, scrolling, tapping. You can't type anything in. I think this is good. I was at dinner with some friends last night and I told them my big business idea and they didn't think it was big. So now I'm going to drop it on you, Michelle. Let me know what you think about it. You ready for this? $3 iced coffee. You've been pushing this for so long. It's the$1 pizza shop of coffee. Here's the pitch. Coffee, iced coffee specifically, has gotten out of control. six seven dollars for just a cup of ice and like the word and like shitty yes like ice coffee or cold brew my place is going to make shitty cold brew terrible but three dollars do you think people would show up no that's what my friends thought that's what my friends thought here's why i think there's something about like treat culture and how miserable people are that getting coffee is like one of those things that brings them joy i think there's room for both though there's room for high-end coffee and there's room for three dollar cold brew just get the job done think about no milk no you know bring your own cup and just you know be on your way yeah you could just pour it into people's mouths that's a good idea yeah that's good but coffee beans are only getting more expensive because the climate change climate change the regions are shrinking Stop trying to bring like real business thoughts to this.

59:45Sorry, I'm trying to be thorough.

59:47Michelle Mattar:Okay, fine. We just raised it to$4 iced coffee. Might as well be six. No, no, no, no. The difference between four and six is big. We can all agree there. See, we talked about the size. It's huge difference. But if you're going to sell like really cheap iced coffee, I feel like coffee is really addictive. So you could just have like a guy in a trench coat and call it drug dealers. Yeah. And then just like get people their fix out on the street corner, you know, not have to pay that overhead of a - No, I need a person. Subscription cold brew. Okay. You pay a certain fee per month. You get unlimited.

1:00:17Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. See, I just want to break and mortar.

1:00:22Michelle Mattar:And the coffee's so bad that people don't want to get unlimited. Yeah. There you go. I think also the problem with sort of my business is that like, you know, you're trying to keep the price the same because it's in the name, which is a problem for the dollar pizza slice because I did see one last night that was$1.50 pizza shop. And that doesn't have the same ring. Arizona iced tea. Those are your people. you gotta go talk to them yeah they've done it they've found a way 99 cent tall boys forever it really makes you wonder what is it made with why do you gotta say that michelle why what's in there no only the best stuff tea tea and peaches no certainly real stuff why i mean obviously when i eat a dollar slice which i haven't in a while but like you really do think about what's in that bread and that sauce because that is some really sketchy material yeah no that's why my cold beer is going to be the worst and the worst the world the market's ever seen uh do you have any ideas for more fake rants but here's here we'll bring it back to this um to reality because you have a quote that i really like which is the world doesn't need more stuff the world needs brands to do better that's you that's you wow i have never been quoted to yourself to myself before i would and it's and the reason why it stuck with me is because I say the world doesn't need more shit or doesn't need more stuff myself.

1:01:41I say that all the time. I don't say the world needs brands to do better, but I'll now integrate into my pitch. It's all yours. Yeah, it's open source, right? Yeah, open source for everyone. It's true. The world doesn't need more stuff. And I think what you're doing is putting brands out into the world that have real reason to be there. And I think the walls of entrepreneurship have been knocked down so significantly that everybody wants to put things out there. And that's cool. And I respect that. But you should ask yourself some fundamental questions about why it exists and if it's going to make sense before you do.

1:02:19And I think you, as a brand builder, doing this for now, whatever, for your whole career and doing it, it's like it's your life lively. but I think it's really brave and important that you say the world doesn't need more shit actually it doesn't so if we are going to do it which we are going to do it we are let's do it right yeah I don't I can't imagine jumping out of bed every day to be like I I just can't wait to make a new brand you know that's not that's not the that's not the tug it's like oh I can't wait to make something that actually has an opinion about why um and that's so much of it is like finding the right collaborators for that um and that's actually something that takes such a long time to get good at i and you have to learn it the hard way like there's no linkedin bro a tree that's going to tell you how to find the right client bars do they just come to you yeah yeah but how do you how do you dissect and sort of find the right people as i imagine you're getting lots of inbounds you're working on projects that take over a year how many do you do uh at a time and how many do you do you do in a year um we usually have anywhere from three to five active clients but when i say that that's not a project that's like a huge toolkit of what's been signed um i mean a lot of them are inbounds off of our network or they like the work but i i think a lot of this it really comes down to chemistry and then also i mean you talked about like confidence but being willing to ask the harder questions and just get there usually the right people are really excited to have those conversations and the wrong people are like, why are you asking me that?

1:04:00Or just talk to me about this part that you do, or no, we just need this box checked and they don't actually want to get into it with you. A lot of times I think it comes down to respect for like what we do. And I'm getting better now, eight years in of seeing when I'm like, oh, they don't respect what we do as a business. And that's okay. But like, you're not the right partner for us. Do you have a sort of methodology of sort of like how you review clients when they come in? Do you have like a system, a scorecard or something? Or is it just all gut? It's mostly gut. But what I will say is that we talk to everyone and everyone thinks I'm nuts for this.

1:04:37But like every inbound we get, we schedule a call with them. You know, it's really funny. We do too. Yes. Yeah. But I'm not on every call anymore. That I used to be on every single call. And so we have a sort of screening process. Yeah. but I still like meeting the people and learning and talking to them and finding out what their project is and telling them about center. And like, maybe it doesn't make sense. And maybe we just wasted a half hour, an hour or whatever, but it's, I think it's important. I still think it's important. It's so important. And also three times in my career, I've had a conversation with someone who was so not ready, wasn't the right fit.

1:05:14They emailed me two or three years later. And I was like, Whoa, like they built an insane career. They were ready to do a thing that I'd never even saw that they were on track for. And then we signed an amazing client because of it. And it's really ultimately like you are networking by taking these calls. And why would you limit what that looks like when, you know, you're going to be working for a long time? And they reach out to you. So they like what you do and they're clearly interested. They've done some research.

1:05:42Michelle Mattar:They probably, you know, again, went on the website at the very least. Hope so. Hope so. But and then they, yeah, they have a business, they have an idea. And oftentimes, yeah, it's a little underbaked or maybe they don't have the budget that you require for a job. But like, it's not it's not bad for them to know. And there have been many instances in Center where, yeah, someone that we spoke to told someone else. They're like, oh, I met this team. And then they're like, oh, it wasn't right for us because like we couldn't afford them or something like that. And they're like, but I told my friend and he's got a job with a, you know, sort of bigger budget or something that like makes sense.

1:06:14And so it's like those conversations, I think, are really important. So you're not crazy. Thank you. Yeah. Before we get you out of here, my favorite question, what do you like to do when you're not practicing? Guilty pleasures, reality TV? No. No. No. Fast food? Sometimes. Okay. Sometimes. Though when I was a kid, I was a freak that ordered a salad at McDonald's. Oof. Okay. I ate that weird one in a cup. Michelle. Michelle. This was, you know what? We got to end the show here. That's a salad at McDonald's. That is. I bet it's good. The freakish thing. The freakish thing you've said all this whole time.

1:06:56I was not okay. No. I was way too online. You were a weird kid. Confirmed. Confirmed weird kid. What? I bet it's good.

1:07:07Michelle Mattar:Did you ever rock the Subway salad? Yes. Yeah. Subway salad's a fire. Really? I've never. It's just like you get to go down the bar and you get to put all your favorite sandwich ingredients in a salad. What's the fucking point? Just no bread sandwiches. No bread. No, that's disgusting. Don't. Here's what's the idea. Sandwiches with no bread. Wow. Wow. Wow. We would put them in bowls? What about sandwich salad? Wow. Sandwich salad. Is the bread in there? Oh, wait. No, sorry. Salad. Sorry. Salad sandwich. Salad sandwich. So big old sandwich, but it's mostly salad. It's mostly salad. I think they have that.

1:07:44I know.

1:07:44Michelle Mattar:I make them. No, that's true. You do make this. Really? Yeah, I do. Favorite restaurant in Brooklyn? I think Inga's in Brooklyn Heights. What's Inga's? Their mortadella, they make it in-house, is one of my favorite bites of food in New York City. Mortadella. It's a sort of a wine bar kind of thing? Wine bar, kind of small. It's in Brooklyn Heights on one of those cute empty corners where you leave and you're like, I don't think you want it. Nice. Okay, so guilty. So that's not a guilty pleasure. It's not a guilty pleasure. What are the hobbies? What do I do? What do you do? What do I do, Michelle, when you're not building sick businesses?

1:08:27Michelle Mattar:Yeah, what do you do? Yeah, well, I do love to cook. I spend a lot of time. I host dinner parties. I have people over. Sweet. Kevin and I will be looking for an invitation. I also like to throw parties. I think this is a silly like when people are like, where do you get your inspiration from? And sometimes I'm like nightlife. And I feel like people don't see that as a source of inspiration, but I definitely do. Just like also people being out and being themselves is endlessly inspiring. So, yeah, I go out. Wow. I leave my house. It's like really. Wow, kids. For those listening at home, breaking news.

1:09:10you should leave the house. Couldn't be me, but I respect it. I used to leave the house, but no longer. No, just working, working, working home and working home. Luckily, they're on the same block now. Yeah, I live here and then just down the block. Okay. Just back and forth. Yeah, sorry. Nightlife, hosting. Hosting, nightlife. I love to draw. I've been working on a graphic novel for a while, but I don't think it's ever going to get finished. I think it's just going to be in the ether. No. Michelle, you're such a closer. You're, you're. Not on this one. Books. How long has it been? Not books, though.

1:09:51Oh, like reading books. Well, yeah. Or writing books. Actually, true. I am someone that if I don't like a book, I walk away from it. And I, the older I get, the more I don't like what people are writing. Okay. I just am like, I had enough with that. Got the flavor. I'm good. but every now and then there's a cincher that's me in movies really i just like i like turned on

1:10:13Michelle Mattar:like one battle after another and after like 10 minutes he's like i get it i'm not doing this i'm sure it's great i'm um you know i want to want to watch it but i just can't just yeah i i love when you turn on a movie like that and you like have a stressful day and you're like great let me watch the most stressful thing of all time to relax and unwind that's why i watch reality television that's why i need to introduce you to the real housewives of salt lake city a perfect program uh that makes you um mindless it it turns your brain into mush that's what you need i youtube is that for me okay yeah what do you watch on youtube uh lately i've been watching videos of someone critiquing mansions i could never live in what does that mean oh like they from outside of the club you can't even get in yeah is it that guy with the floating head Samir that does the like house tours where he's like, um, is it that guy?

1:11:09It's a guy who like hates on those guys. Oh, oh, oh, oh. So he's, I think his name is Arvin Haddad. Okay. Um, he's like, he's got a really good, like critical lens on why did they build it this way? Think about if it was built that way. Um, but I could never afford to live in these places, but I like to sit there and go, yeah, not yet. That's totally right. Hating on rich people with bad taste is, is truly one of life's great pleasures. I love that. Love any like how it's made type thing. Okay. I am one of those sick true crime girlies that can't watch a horror movie, but will watch people getting murdered.

1:11:44People getting murdered. Yeah. Being stolen from their homes. Well, I don't know what's wrong with that. No, I'm right there with you. That feels really normal to me. Oh, I love it. I can't get enough of it. And like - Well, you're on the internet from a young age. That's true. It's just bound to happen. I had to know it was out there. I mean listen you and I are not the only ones because Netflix is clearly pumping these things out it's true every other week there's another girl that got stolen from her apartment or her home at a young age and most of the time they don't find her it's just lifetime reinventing it's true yeah it's true it is I actually watched one the other day and they did find her I was like whoa they found her she wasn't chopped up into a bunch of pieces and thrown in the river that's an uplifting tale a happy ending well this has been a happy ending for this program, Michelle Mattar.

1:12:30I almost got it wrong here. That would be iconic. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you for coming on. It's great to meet you. You're awesome. And yeah, keep doing your thing. And I feel like it's so singular. And I know in a world full of brand builders, I feel like when I see a brand and it's done by you, I kind of know. Wow. Thank you. Yeah, and I know. And I'm like, that's practice. Damn.

1:12:55Michelle Mattar:Practice makes perfect. Wow. Wow. That's the name of the episode, Kevin. Way to fucking land this plane. I know. So fun, thank you. Thank you. Thanks for coming on.